SconnieRoadie wrote:
Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.

But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
not out of line with the reality.

Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
find out.

I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need to
drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle and
people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the threat
and make themselves heard.

Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes them
out to be, eh?

--
www.ewoodshop.com

Swingman wrote in
:

SconnieRoadie wrote:
Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.

But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
not out of line with the reality.

Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
find out.

I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need
to drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle
and people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the
threat and make themselves heard.

Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes
them out to be, eh?

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such a
fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and son-in-law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 10, 9:37*pm, Han wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such a
fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. *My daughter and son-in-law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.


But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

busbus wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37*pm, Han wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such
a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. *My daughter and son-in-
law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some
of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in
their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and
pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are still in
force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be based on
collective bargaining.

The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000. Even
in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to subsist on a
piddly $130,000 per year.

Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees in
the summer months.

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

Police don't seem to be hurting:

"The median salary for the state’s 20,525 municipal officers was $90,672
last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.

A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year.
Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median
salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"

That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners) paid
by the taxpayer.

"Any police officer that says they’re not making enough money needs to
re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert
Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures
last year, and the median salary was $121,177.

Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey’s high cost of living,
years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers to
quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have
recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to
pay more toward their health care."

Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more
toward their health care and their pension plans?

Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can
barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such
a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and son-in-
law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the state
is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources to
fund their pensions.

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. *Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? *It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.


Well, things like pensions "changed" at companies while I was working
there and there was nothing I could do about it.

Health care insurance costs rose for me without notice and there was
nothing I could do about it.

My job was outsourced to a low-cost provider and there was nothing I
could do about.

Sorry, I just don't like hearing the whining.

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.

"busbus" wrote in message
...
On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.


I don't dispute any of what you've said. However, as a retired firefighter,
I know of many who chose the profession solely because of the "security";
security that is now being surrendered because of mismanagement by the
.......managers. The individuals in question usually had skills that would
have paid them more *in the short run* but chose a public service job
because of the proffered security.
I'm in favor of informing future applicants that the so-called security no
longer exists and they are well advised to take care of their own but a deal
is a deal and the "sheeple public" elected the "managers" so the fault
cannot be fairly placed entirely upon the public service workers. IMHO

Max

On 8/11/2011 8:28 AM, busbus wrote:

Beside, pension and health care insurance costs are breaking the backs
of the public. We who are contributing to the GNP in this country are
paying ever escalating costs for our own retirement and health care
AND we are expected to pay for the people who work in public unions.

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify that
apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5% of
their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than $150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy with
a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid for
politicians.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.

Police don't seem to be hurting:

"The median salary for the state’s 20,525 municipal officers was
$90,672 last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.

A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year.
Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median
salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"

That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners)
paid by the taxpayer.

"Any police officer that says they’re not making enough money needs to
re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert
Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures
last year, and the median salary was $121,177.

Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey’s high cost of living,
years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers
to quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have
recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to
pay more toward their health care."

Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more
toward their health care and their pension plans?

Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can
barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

Yes, the police here are complaining they earn less than in neighboring
towns. Because of gov christie's budget cuts and their intransigence in
negotiations, some had to be let go. I think 1 "new" position became
available the coming fiscal year. They're good, though, and generally
polite etc. They came extremely fast when I had fallen and broken my
upper arm on July 4 a few years back.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in- law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their
remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions)
makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work
pay more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care
insurance costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same
and being told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.

If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the
state is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources
to fund their pensions.

?pollination?? Some would think that a fringe benefit like a pension
from a (quasi)governmental organization should be trustworthy. That is a
rude awakening around here.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. *Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? *It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.


Well, things like pensions "changed" at companies while I was working
there and there was nothing I could do about it.

Health care insurance costs rose for me without notice and there was
nothing I could do about it.

My job was outsourced to a low-cost provider and there was nothing I
could do about.

Sorry, I just don't like hearing the whining.

It didn't change that much at my academic employer in New York City. But
then, it always was a "defined contribution" benefit, rather than a
"defined benefit" plan. It was up to me how and where to invest (within
the limits of 403b5.

Health care costs kept and keep on rising for my coworkers and me
(retired) too, including contributions from us, and copays.

I think that whining is in the eye of the beholder. If you had a
contract, did you like it being canceled? My contract was year to year.
Luckily, I worked for 34 years with (hardly) a hiatus, although 1 year
early on I had to take a 30% pay cut. It's possible that I could have
insisted on being paid, but then my performance review could have been
bad at the end wry grin.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.

I did complain that the contracts were written in such a way that they
did get those enormous bonuses. A contract is a contract, unless it is
illegal, or coerced. Your call now ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Max" wrote in
eb.com:

"busbus" wrote in message
.
.. On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.


I don't dispute any of what you've said. However, as a retired
firefighter, I know of many who chose the profession solely because of
the "security"; security that is now being surrendered because of
mismanagement by the ......managers. The individuals in question
usually had skills that would have paid them more *in the short run*
but chose a public service job because of the proffered security.
I'm in favor of informing future applicants that the so-called
security no longer exists and they are well advised to take care of
their own but a deal is a deal and the "sheeple public" elected the
"managers" so the fault cannot be fairly placed entirely upon the
public service workers. IMHO

Max

Exactly, Max. As I said elsewhere, in maybe different words, academic
institutions and others have become leery of "defined benefit" pensions,
and have started to give "defined contribution" benefits. I had the
latter, and can only blame myself for hanging on to underperforming
investments, and crow about the well-performing ones.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

Han wrote:

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some
of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in
their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and
pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are
still in force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be
based on collective bargaining.

The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000.
Even in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to
subsist on a piddly $130,000 per year.

Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees
in the summer months.

I hope my kids are getting closer to that average salary. They started 4
years ago with around 40K. Even combined, that isn't very much
hereabouts.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 11, 12:54*pm, Han wrote:
The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year. *

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. *Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids are
in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year. *Glad
it's not my job ...


I am not saying that teachers or firemen or policemen or whomever do
not work hard. You want to know the truth? My son will be starting
his sophomore year at Penn State to become a high-school math
teacher. I know it is no bed of roses. But, at the same time, he is
not looking for a free ride.

That said, you mention that your kids started out at $40/K each four
years ago. Here is the thing: there are a number of people living in
that community who are paying taxes and are paying A LOT more for
health insurance and are paying into their own retirement accounts.

Like somebody mentioned befo nobody is taking anything away; they
are changing it for the future. It needs to be done. Sorry.

Somebody else mentioned the "security" part of it. That is gone ,
too. Yes, it is a sad thing but there is no security in the private
sector and, in a number of cases, the person doing the same job in the
public sector gets paid less than the one in the public sector NOW (it
was not like that before). It is upside down.

This slanted sort of thinking is exactly what brought Greece down and
is bringing a number of other European countries to their collective
knees. Take off the blinders and see. Both China and Iran are
licking their chops waiting to become the kingpin in a post-America
world. And that doesn't even count all the religious crap that is
going on.

As long as we fight amongst ourselves over this piddly crap, the
stronger the other side becomes.

On Aug 11, 12:45*pm, Han wrote:
busbus wrote :









On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.

I just read this closer. *To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. *All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. *This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? *I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.

I did complain that the contracts were written in such a way that they
did get those enormous bonuses. *A contract is a contract, unless it is
illegal, or coerced. *Your call now ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid


Well, why did you complain about them? Because they are "rich" and
the people you hang around with are not?

I am not trying to be belligerent; I am just trying to make a point.
You see, I believe it is this exact type of class warfare that cause a
lot of the problems in the world today. For example, all that crap
that is happening in England right now. I saw a British newscaster
delivering the news from a store that was in the process of being
overrun by looters. And the looters were having a good old time! He
asked one woman if she knew what she was doing and she said that she
did. he asked her why and she said something stupid like, "We're
getting back all the taxes we paid." Another interview was conducted
with three young girls (in their late teens or early 20s). It was
morning, so the newscaster said, and the girls were gorked out of
their sneakers on free booze that was handed out. They were asked if
they were up all night and they said they were and ghat they drunk the
free booze all night (that was stolen). Then they were asked why they
did it and they each said separately that it was because of the rich.

This "discussion" is starting to go in the same vein. Both sides need
to get together and UNDERSTAND the other side. Reasonableness needs
to prevail. Anymore, people try to get 100% of the pie and won't give
up until they do.

I understand that is is hard to get by on a smaller salary but if you
can get (a) job security, (b) lower health insurance costs, and (c) a
good pension, why do you need the same salary as a person who is
working in the private sector who is paying more in health insurance
costs and gets little to no pension AND has to pay taxes so the public
workers can get more than they have themselves.

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

On Aug 11, 12:21*pm, Swingman wrote:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify that
apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5% of
their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than $150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy with
a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. *

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid for
politicians.


Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute
was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this
year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the
healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up
in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine
periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like
Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the
easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are
being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the
school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us
white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on
evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us.
Why not the teachers, too?

Swingman wrote in
:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5%
of their salary for health insurance?

Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a lot,
but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for public
employees may be something like this
http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/beyond...on-and-health-
reform-affects-you:
All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary and
using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those making
less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making $110,000 or
more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over $25,000).

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on
your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?

OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story) for
something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid, was
paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.

At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and my
spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical, dental &
vision was ~$212/month.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
for politicians.

The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I
believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare is
going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New York) a
surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured people.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
:

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting.
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in disposable
income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live, even if I didn't
help, but they would definitely spend less. And the real issue is why
healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to elsewhere.
Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM). An
ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where they
determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just above my
ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic surgeon said he
needed to operate right away and put "plates" and screws in my leg.
Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of recovery in a semiprivate
hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was released, and was told it was
OK to travel by train to Paris on Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey
had the orthopedist amazed at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon.
For the hospital stay including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and
medications, the total bill was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute
because of the changing exchange rates around that time. Luckily my
insurance paid except for a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me
paid for my exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I
could keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know
what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 12:21*pm, Swingman wrote:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/m
o.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. *

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
for politicians.


Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute
was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this
year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the
healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up
in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine
periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like
Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the
easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are
being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the
school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us
white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on
evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us.
Why not the teachers, too?

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top
of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little
about staying late, and working weekends etc.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 12:54*pm, Han wrote:
The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year. *

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
rather consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and
similar districts. *Apart from the miserable shape those communities
and kids a
re
in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
*Gla
d
it's not my job ...


I am not saying that teachers or firemen or policemen or whomever do
not work hard. You want to know the truth? My son will be starting
his sophomore year at Penn State to become a high-school math
teacher. I know it is no bed of roses. But, at the same time, he is
not looking for a free ride.

That said, you mention that your kids started out at $40/K each four
years ago. Here is the thing: there are a number of people living in
that community who are paying taxes and are paying A LOT more for
health insurance and are paying into their own retirement accounts.

Like somebody mentioned befo nobody is taking anything away; they
are changing it for the future. It needs to be done. Sorry.

Somebody else mentioned the "security" part of it. That is gone ,
too. Yes, it is a sad thing but there is no security in the private
sector and, in a number of cases, the person doing the same job in the
public sector gets paid less than the one in the public sector NOW (it
was not like that before). It is upside down.

This slanted sort of thinking is exactly what brought Greece down and
is bringing a number of other European countries to their collective
knees. Take off the blinders and see. Both China and Iran are
licking their chops waiting to become the kingpin in a post-America
world. And that doesn't even count all the religious crap that is
going on.

As long as we fight amongst ourselves over this piddly crap, the
stronger the other side becomes.

Some of that I can agree with. OTOH, employee-employer relations are
much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary strikes
(teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe). The only thing they could do
was not volunteer for after school work with the kids after years
without contract.

I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules. Especially the rule
that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during
your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!! That's ridiculous.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 11, 2:03*pm, Han wrote:
busbus wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
:

Reasonableness. *I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting. *
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in disposable
income for my kids here is a hardship. *They would live, even if I didn't
help, but they would definitely spend less. *And the real issue is why
healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to elsewhere. *
Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM). *An
ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where they
determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just above my
ankle to halfway up my lower leg. *A trauma orthopedic surgeon said he
needed to operate right away and put "plates" and screws in my leg. *
Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of recovery in a semiprivate
hospital room. *On Friday afternoon I was released, and was told it was
OK to travel by train to Paris on Saturday. *Followup care here in Jersey
had the orthopedist amazed at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon. *
For the hospital stay including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and
medications, the total bill was less than 10K. *It's difficult to compute
because of the changing exchange rates around that time. *Luckily my
insurance paid except for a $250 deductible. *Of course, no one but me
paid for my exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I
could keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. *I'd love to know
what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Are you saying what would it have cost with or without health
insurance? Before or after you have hit your limits for the year?

One thing that people are forgetting: no hospital in the US is allowed
to turn away a patient just because they cannot pay. As a result, we
who are actually paying the bill need to pay for those who are not.

This will open up a can of worms but if you insert the Federal
Government into the mix, you will mess things up even more than they
are. Just because the Federal Government would run a health care arm
does not mean those people are any smarter or more efficient or more
ethical or, in any way, better. Plus there are 350,000,000 or more in
these United States. A lot of people bring up the fact that
governments of other countries have universal healthcare insurance but
trying to have one, central point of control of an industry and try to
make it one-size-fit-all for the vast number of people involved simply
will not work. (But this is the subject of another thread!)

As far as it goes, I have not seen my pay increase in about four
years. In fact, two years ago, we were all forced to take one week a
quarter off without pay. None of my expenses cared that I had less
money. I survived. And even though we have not been forced to that
extreme since (yet!), my pay is stagnant and ALL of my costs have
increased. Also, back in 2003, I saw my pay get cut back around 20%
but that was better than no job at all whenever I was about to get
laid off. I put in for over 450 jobs in person, over the internet,
thru the mail, anywhere I could. No bites. Luckily, this was tossed
at my feet. 20% is a hell of a cut, no matter how much you are
making. I made major changes in my life during the time I was looking
feverishly for a job and thru the first 2-3 yer of that lower paying
job. We didn't do anything we didn't have to do. We didn't eat out.
We didn't go to the movies. We didn't go on vacation. We didn't do
hardly anything. We focused all of our money toward our mortgage and
our second mortgage (because we added onto the house) and the one car--
basically anything to get our family out of any sort of debt at all.
During that time, my wife had to go to part-time, too, so it wasn't
easy.

I guess I am saying that things happen and people can either roll up
their sleeves and work harder or, in the worst case scenario (and I am
not saying you or your kids do this) would be to stick your hand out.

Is not the hardship the same across the board? Is it hard to give up
some things? Yes, it is very hard. Going backwards in any degree is
hard. But you need to learn how to tough it out.

On Aug 11, 2:13*pm, Han wrote:

Some of that I can agree with. *OTOH, employee-employer relations are
much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary strikes
(teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe). *The only thing they could do
was not volunteer for after school work with the kids after years
without contract.

I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules. *Especially the rule
that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during
your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!! *That's ridiculous.


Han,

I am glad we are having a dialogue on this. I agree with your last
statement.

On 8/11/2011 11:35 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in- law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their
remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions)
makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work
pay more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care
insurance costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same
and being told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.

If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the
state is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources
to fund their pensions.

?pollination?? Some would think that a fringe benefit like a pension
from a (quasi)governmental organization should be trustworthy. That is a
rude awakening around here.


Yeah Pollinations... LOL Thank you spell checker,,,,

30 years ago maybe but the government spends way more than it takes in
and it stops some where.

On 11 Aug 2011 18:03:29 GMT, Han wrote:

busbus wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
:

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting.
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in disposable
income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live, even if I didn't
help, but they would definitely spend less. And the real issue is why
healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to elsewhere.
Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM). An
ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where they
determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just above my
ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic surgeon said he
needed to operate right away and put "plates" and screws in my leg.
Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of recovery in a semiprivate
hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was released, and was told it was
OK to travel by train to Paris on Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey
had the orthopedist amazed at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon.
For the hospital stay including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and
medications, the total bill was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute
because of the changing exchange rates around that time. Luckily my
insurance paid except for a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me
paid for my exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I
could keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know
what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.

The main reason for our high healthcare costs is the need for
malpractice insurance coverage for the medical community. Eliminate
that from the equation and our costs would be significantly lower.

I guess the bottom feeding lawyers are the legal systems counterpart
to the anointed ones desire to redistribute the wealth.

On 8/11/2011 1:07 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, wrote:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/m
o.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
for politicians.


Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute
was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this
year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the
healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up
in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine
periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like
Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the
easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are
being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the
school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us
white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on
evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us.
Why not the teachers, too?

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top
of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little
about staying late, and working weekends etc.



But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are there.
I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive
during the time that you are at work.

Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you would
have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every one does
not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top and they
are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that complain and
or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.

On 8/11/2011 12:44 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5%
of their salary for health insurance?

Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a lot,
but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for public
employees may be something like this
http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/beyond...on-and-health-
reform-affects-you:
All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary and
using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those making
less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making $110,000 or
more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over $25,000).

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on
your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?

Actually that is normal, do you have any idea how much the employer pays
for an employees insurance?



OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story) for
something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid, was
paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.

At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and my
spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical, dental&
vision was ~$212/month.

I can guarantee you that you were only paying a small percentage of the
total. When I was working for others I never had any deductions for my
insurance however being a check signer I knew full well what health
insurance was costing the company.


Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
for politicians.

The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I
believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare is
going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New York) a
surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured people.

Think about how much that is going to go up when you start footing the
whole bill, Fewer raises, smaller raises, higher taxes....

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior to
most today. Our educational system throws more money at the problem
than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher salary is not
going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that if all teachers
were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the same teachers would
still be teaching and the kids would not be learning any more than they
are right now. If you want the kids to learn more the teachers will
have to be held to a higher standard, be re-certified periodically, and
paid for their performance.



As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids are
in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year. Glad
it's not my job ...

On Aug 11, 2:07*pm, Han wrote:

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? *I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top
of that. *And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little
about staying late, and working weekends etc.



Hans,

The 20% increase in workload is not the point. I guess I was focusing
on all the down time they have now. Until this came up in the
negotiations and it was made public, I never in a million years would
have thought that they only worked a little over 50% of the school
day. They say they need that time to grade papers and exams and
homework and such. I understand. Really. I do. But I don't know of
any other profession who is given that amount of "free time" at work.

And I sort of hate to say it but I know a number of people who work at
colleges. Two of them were fellow employees back in the day when I
was laid off--they were laid off, too, during the same downturn and we
were all int he same IT group. They say it is like they died and went
to heaven working at a college. The one guy said the most stress he
has is whenever payroll runs an he is in charge of payroll. He has
had exactly zero production problems in almost eight years in
payroll. The most stress he has is whenever he has keep an eye on the
jobs over weekends. if that is the limit to his stress, please, give
it to me.

I will trade you a year here, Han, for a year in your university. I
don't think you have been called while you were on the beach and had
to cut it short to go back and log into work for hours very often. or
called at all hours of the night because the system crashed, worked
3-4 hours, then had to go to work the next day at normal time
(probably due to the crash). I don't think I worked an eight hour day
in many years, let alone a 40-hour week!

On 8/11/2011 2:30 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On 11 Aug 2011 18:03:29 GMT, wrote:

wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
:

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting.
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in disposable
income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live, even if I didn't
help, but they would definitely spend less. And the real issue is why
healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to elsewhere.
Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM). An
ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where they
determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just above my
ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic surgeon said he
needed to operate right away and put "plates" and screws in my leg.
Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of recovery in a semiprivate
hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was released, and was told it was
OK to travel by train to Paris on Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey
had the orthopedist amazed at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon.
For the hospital stay including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and
medications, the total bill was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute
because of the changing exchange rates around that time. Luckily my
insurance paid except for a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me
paid for my exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I
could keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know
what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.

The main reason for our high healthcare costs is the need for
malpractice insurance coverage for the medical community. Eliminate
that from the equation and our costs would be significantly lower.

I guess the bottom feeding lawyers are the legal systems counterpart
to the anointed ones desire to redistribute the wealth.

That truly is a big expense however if you take the insurance out of the
equation and every one would benefit. Think about a doctors office that
has a department/staff for simply collecting payment from the insurance
company. Then look at the big discounts that the insurance company gets.

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 2:13*pm, Han wrote:

Some of that I can agree with. *OTOH, employee-employer relations are
much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary
strikes (teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe). *The only thing
they could do was not volunteer for after school work with the kids
after years without contract.

I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules. *Especially the rule
that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during
your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!! *That's ridiculous.


Han,

I am glad we are having a dialogue on this. I agree with your last
statement.

Thanks!! I agree, we need to talk. We don't want more occurrences like
the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies that give away pension obligations to
the "state" or just say screw you to the retired workers. Some givebacks
need to happen, but we were focusing here on teachers. And then the BIG
question is, would you want your kids (and your neighbors' kids too) to
have a good education, or should the kids be warehoused until 16 or 18
and then loosed upon the drugdens that would undoubtedly spring up in
your town.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Gordon Shumway wrote in :

On 11 Aug 2011 18:03:29 GMT, Han wrote:

busbus wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
:

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting.
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in
disposable income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live,
even if I didn't help, but they would definitely spend less. And the
real issue is why healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to
elsewhere. Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM).
An ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where
they determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just
above my ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic
surgeon said he needed to operate right away and put "plates" and
screws in my leg. Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of
recovery in a semiprivate hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was
released, and was told it was OK to travel by train to Paris on
Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey had the orthopedist amazed at
the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon. For the hospital stay
including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and medications, the total bill
was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute because of the changing
exchange rates around that time. Luckily my insurance paid except for
a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me paid for my exchanging my
tourist class seat for a first class one, so I could keep my leg
elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know what a similar
operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.

The main reason for our high healthcare costs is the need for
malpractice insurance coverage for the medical community. Eliminate
that from the equation and our costs would be significantly lower.

I guess the bottom feeding lawyers are the legal systems counterpart
to the anointed ones desire to redistribute the wealth.

The lawyers are certainly a factor, but there are others too. First of
all, there is the feeling that the newest, most expensive treatment is
the best. Uh, uh, not necessarily. Some of those are mere fancy ways to
package an old treatment in a new patent protected envelop. Then there
is the fighting between you, the doctor's office, and the insurance
company as to what is allowed, covered, proper, whatever, with the myriad
codes for medications and treatment. The Dutch system is simplified.
The hospital sent me a 1 page bill, half of which was addresses
(hospital, mine) and a few lines that pointed to a single code that
covered all. Doctor was very satisfied with the system. He wanted to
practice medicine and heal people (had a kidney transplant and wanted to
pay back, also). Didn't want to fight about reimbursements. He
basically just had a salary, I believe. I also got an extra page with an
explanation of the system in (sort of) English. I was indeed glad I
still spoke and understood Dutch when this all happened. Good thing it
didn't happen in Italy ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news
On 8/11/2011 2:30 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On 11 Aug 2011 18:03:29 GMT, wrote:

wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
:

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting.
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in
disposable income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live,
even if I didn't help, but they would definitely spend less. And
the real issue is why healthcare costs are so crazy in the US,
compared to elsewhere. Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30
AM). An ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER,
where they determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked
just above my ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic
surgeon said he needed to operate right away and put "plates" and
screws in my leg. Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of
recovery in a semiprivate hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was
released, and was told it was OK to travel by train to Paris on
Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey had the orthopedist amazed
at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon. For the hospital stay
including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and medications, the total bill
was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute because of the
changing exchange rates around that time. Luckily my insurance paid
except for a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me paid for my
exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I could
keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know
what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost
hereabouts.

The main reason for our high healthcare costs is the need for
malpractice insurance coverage for the medical community. Eliminate
that from the equation and our costs would be significantly lower.

I guess the bottom feeding lawyers are the legal systems counterpart
to the anointed ones desire to redistribute the wealth.

That truly is a big expense however if you take the insurance out of
the equation and every one would benefit. Think about a doctors
office that has a department/staff for simply collecting payment from
the insurance company. Then look at the big discounts that the
insurance company gets.

Indeed. A system where this was the price, and no bargaining is better.
Less staff to pay to do the arguing. Oops, more unemployed secretaries
....


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 1:07 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, wrote:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/m
o.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union
choke hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought
and paid for politicians.


Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor
dispute was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again
this year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in
the healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were
really up in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out
of nine periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some
things like Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are
not the easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he
teachers are being given ample time to get a lot of that work done
during the school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many,
many of us white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work
at home on evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is
EXPECTED of us. Why not the teachers, too?

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on
top of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a
little about staying late, and working weekends etc.



But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are
there.
I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive
during the time that you are at work.

Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you
would have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every
one does not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top
and they are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that
complain and or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.

The teachers do not always have to be there first or last period. And
teaching a class is really more work than supervising cafeteria or some
such. Basically, if the school can make teachers 20% more productive,
they need to pay 20% fewer teachers.

Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to be
done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 12:44 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a
lot, but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for
public employees may be something like this
http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/beyond...on-and-health-
reform-affects-you:
All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary
and using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those
making less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making
$110,000 or more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over
$25,000).

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on
your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?

Actually that is normal, do you have any idea how much the employer
pays for an employees insurance?

I was involved in writing grants, and know about the budgets. On top pof
the salaries/wages there was always 30% extra for benefits. Plus on top
of the socalled "direct costs" the universities had negotiated with the
NIH (National Institutes of Health) an additional percentage for overhead
(building costs, maintenance costs, water, what have you). That
percentage? In the order of 70%. In other words, you (via the NIH) paid
me 100K in salary, 30K in benefits, 30K in equipment and chemicals and
other materials for my science, plus 70% of 160K=112K for the university.
My salary was in that order, which was quite normal for someone with my
qualifications.

OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story)
for something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid,
was paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.

At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and
my spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical,
dental& vision was ~$212/month.

I can guarantee you that you were only paying a small percentage of
the total. When I was working for others I never had any deductions
for my insurance however being a check signer I knew full well what
health insurance was costing the company.

Yes, I know. Officially, that was because the university was competing
with other employers to get the most qualified people. A good benefit
package was a big plus.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
for politicians.

The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I
believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare
is going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New
York) a surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured
people.

Think about how much that is going to go up when you start footing the
whole bill, Fewer raises, smaller raises, higher taxes....

I don't know. Everyone (in my reddish opinion) should pay similarly for
health care insurance. No ducking because you think you are invincible
and won't get sick, because if you do, you'll be unable to pay back what
you evaded before. And, better to have a colonoscopy now than colon
cancer later.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 11, 4:10*pm, Han wrote:

Thanks!! *I agree, we need to talk. *We don't want more occurrences like
the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies that give away pension obligations to
the "state" or just say screw you to the retired workers. *Some givebacks
need to happen, but we were focusing here on teachers. *And then the BIG
question is, would you want your kids (and your neighbors' kids too) to
have a good education, or should the kids be warehoused until 16 or 18
and then loosed upon the drugdens that would undoubtedly spring up in
your town.


Han,

I agree that kids need to have a good education but simply paying
money does not guarantee that. We pay a hell of a lot per student in
this country and we are getting dumber and dumber. Do you really
believe that it will turn the corner if you pay teachers more money?
Hire more teachers? Provide more "free" meals in school? Give each
kid a Mac?

Nope. It all starts in the home and whether or not a kid's parents
value education and make darn sure that their kids do the needful.
You have parents at both ends of the spectrum: those who think their
kids need to be #1 in everything and can never have a bad grade and
those who can give a #%@^. And I do not know which group has more
members in it. Unless and until those things change, we will sink
lower and lower.

Additionally, I graduated from high school around the time that Jimmy
Carter created the Department of Education. Seems to me the USA was
on top of the world at that time and, ever since, we have plummeted
but the costs have risen tremendously. I see a lot of problems there.

But let's get back to the subject: why shouldn't teachers have to
endure everything the rest of us do? We all are forced to work more.
We are all forced to pay more. And, as a result, our hourly take home
pay has been reduced incredibly.

Am I biased? Maybe I am but I am sick of having to pay for more and
more people out of my salary.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior to
most today. Our educational system throws more money at the problem
than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher salary is not
going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that if all teachers
were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the same teachers would
still be teaching and the kids would not be learning any more than
they are right now. If you want the kids to learn more the teachers
will have to be held to a higher standard, be re-certified
periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing it
already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn. Ask
the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now. It
goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade" teachers and
remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a bunch of really
unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities
and kids are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus
the hours of grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me
within a year. Glad it's not my job ...






--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid