busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 2:07*pm, Han wrote:

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? *I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on
top of that. *And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a
little about staying late, and working weekends etc.



Hans,

The 20% increase in workload is not the point. I guess I was focusing
on all the down time they have now. Until this came up in the
negotiations and it was made public, I never in a million years would
have thought that they only worked a little over 50% of the school
day. They say they need that time to grade papers and exams and
homework and such. I understand. Really. I do. But I don't know of
any other profession who is given that amount of "free time" at work.

And I sort of hate to say it but I know a number of people who work at
colleges. Two of them were fellow employees back in the day when I
was laid off--they were laid off, too, during the same downturn and we
were all int he same IT group. They say it is like they died and went
to heaven working at a college. The one guy said the most stress he
has is whenever payroll runs an he is in charge of payroll. He has
had exactly zero production problems in almost eight years in
payroll. The most stress he has is whenever he has keep an eye on the
jobs over weekends. if that is the limit to his stress, please, give
it to me.

I will trade you a year here, Han, for a year in your university. I
don't think you have been called while you were on the beach and had
to cut it short to go back and log into work for hours very often. or
called at all hours of the night because the system crashed, worked
3-4 hours, then had to go to work the next day at normal time
(probably due to the crash). I don't think I worked an eight hour day
in many years, let alone a 40-hour week!

I have no idea what kind of work you do. Please tell me a little, or a
lot grin.

Been there, done that. I never had a teaching job (students that is,
perhaps unfortunately). I had to formulate a hypothesis, design
experiments, run the experiments, calculate and interpret the data, and
write the scientific papers. And in order to get the grant money, I had
to write the grants. No grants, no job. Luckily, I only had 1 or 2
times that there wasn't enough money for my salary. And then there were
the scientific conferences were you had to present the data, be nice to
the people who might judge you and so on, and still keep your integrity.
Most years I wasn't home to take my wife out for our anniversary
because of that. But I liked the work, despite the frustrations and
hard work, and hope I contributed. I'm still assisting my old
colleagues with this and that from home, but no more filling out those
effing forms and doing those proficiency and compliance tests. My old
boss is still doing this. I owe much to him and his liking of my work.
I also had a technician to help me much of the time, and they all were
very competent and nice, and got paid less, some much less, others not
so much less (seniority pays).

But I do know I lived in a protected world, generally. Of course, if my
boss and I had failed at some point to generate enough grant money, the
university would nicely say thanks to me, and send me on my way.
Happened many times, both with competent and with not too competent
people. The luck of the dr.aw. If your grant was judged by someone who
didn't like your ideas, you were done until you could rewrite the grant,
perhaps getting it to someone who liked it better. Generally in the
times I was submitting, there was 1 main reviewer of your grant, 2 who
would look at it, and then a bunch who would read the summary and judge
what the others were saying.

As for the wimps that are supposed to support your work in the
university's offices, many are nice people who had reached their Peter
principle level. Others are worse, and still others do a good job. One
thing I couldn't stand was the increasingly complex forms and
permissions, certifications and compliance testing. Seemed like every 3
months the forms needed to be changed and the required language in the
forms was redone. I still get the emails announcing the improved redone
forms etc. Now I can plonk them, and occasionally I write back telling
them why I quit.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/11/2011 3:24 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 1:07 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, wrote:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/m
o.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union
choke hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought
and paid for politicians.


Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor
dispute was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again
this year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in
the healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were
really up in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out
of nine periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some
things like Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are
not the easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he
teachers are being given ample time to get a lot of that work done
during the school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many,
many of us white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work
at home on evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is
EXPECTED of us. Why not the teachers, too?

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on
top of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a
little about staying late, and working weekends etc.



But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are
there.
I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive
during the time that you are at work.

Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you
would have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every
one does not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top
and they are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that
complain and or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.

The teachers do not always have to be there first or last period. And
teaching a class is really more work than supervising cafeteria or some
such. Basically, if the school can make teachers 20% more productive,
they need to pay 20% fewer teachers.

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers more
productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep their jobs.


Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to be
done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 4:10*pm, Han wrote:

Thanks!! *I agree, we need to talk. *We don't want more occurrences l
ike
the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies that give away pension obligations
to the "state" or just say screw you to the retired workers. *Some
givebac
ks
need to happen, but we were focusing here on teachers. *And then the
BI
G
question is, would you want your kids (and your neighbors' kids too)
to have a good education, or should the kids be warehoused until 16
or 18 and then loosed upon the drugdens that would undoubtedly spring
up in your town.


Han,

I agree that kids need to have a good education but simply paying
money does not guarantee that. We pay a hell of a lot per student in
this country and we are getting dumber and dumber. Do you really
believe that it will turn the corner if you pay teachers more money?
Hire more teachers? Provide more "free" meals in school? Give each
kid a Mac?

I wish I had the solution. Paying a little more should help attract
better teachers (I think). Elevating the stature of the teachers to
give them more selfesteem would help too. And parents should help the
teachers. What? My wife just tells me that the CDC has determined that
60% of American adults grew up with a troubled or abusive family member
(self reported). Maybe that explains something. I wish I knew how to
educate teachers so they can motivate their kids better. I know that's
what ny daughter and SIL are trying to do, and especially my SIL has
great rapport (I think) with the kids in Paterson. I wish I could
properly retell some of his jokes and stories with which he keeps them
interested.

Nope. It all starts in the home and whether or not a kid's parents
value education and make darn sure that their kids do the needful.
You have parents at both ends of the spectrum: those who think their
kids need to be #1 in everything and can never have a bad grade and
those who can give a #%@^. And I do not know which group has more
members in it. Unless and until those things change, we will sink
lower and lower.

Amen, brother. Much of the current malaise in education comes from those
things.

Additionally, I graduated from high school around the time that Jimmy
Carter created the Department of Education. Seems to me the USA was
on top of the world at that time and, ever since, we have plummeted
but the costs have risen tremendously. I see a lot of problems there.

I grew up in Holland, and went to university there for my master's. In
the 50s and 60s, it was like a huge merit badge for the researcher who
had studied/worked a year in the US. Big plus for advancement back home.
And it still is for many, but now more orientals than Europeans. Work
ethic is still a problem for many in the US. By far not all, because
still very much of the best science is done in the US. But there is a
greater proportion of foreigners who happily do grunt work to learn the
ropes.

But let's get back to the subject: why shouldn't teachers have to
endure everything the rest of us do? We all are forced to work more.
We are all forced to pay more. And, as a result, our hourly take home
pay has been reduced incredibly.

Then let's get those critters in Congress to give up some perks, and do
more (I mean real legislative work). This pandering to the left and right
fringes really gets me.

Am I biased? Maybe I am but I am sick of having to pay for more and
more people out of my salary.

See above. I really believe that some people need to be paid
appropriately. Teachers. Some cops, hospital workers, haven't thought
of making a list of good people grin.

Also, I told you I retired in large part because I was fed up with
compliance forms etc. We should simplify that to an absolute minimum,
and tell everyone to take an oath to do the right thing(s). And if they
didn't, such as doing ethically wrong things, falsefying data, abusing
subjects, whatever, then they should really be punished, not just given a
slap on the wrist, as is happening now.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers
more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep
their jobs.

When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can
clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who
just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.

Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at least
thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and nothing
during the summer, or to have it spread out. My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional bridge.
No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in enough so I
don't really have to supplement them.

Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to
be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not
acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers are
NOT rewarded enough for their work.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior to
most today. Our educational system throws more money at the problem
than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher salary is not
going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that if all teachers
were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the same teachers would
still be teaching and the kids would not be learning any more than
they are right now. If you want the kids to learn more the teachers
will have to be held to a higher standard, be re-certified
periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing it
already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn. Ask
the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now. It
goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade" teachers and
remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a bunch of really
unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get a
40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10 years
but should I? If only the schools would teach and require students to
learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good financial
decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as a last
resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being taught in
school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to buy
something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the wife
works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life style.
IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When both parents
are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers would have a lot
more success in teaching if a parent was at home when the kids got home.

On 8/11/2011 4:28 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers
more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep
their jobs.

When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can
clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who
just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.

I believe "some" are being paid what they are worth oters are being baby
sitters.



Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at least
thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and nothing
during the summer, or to have it spread out.

I think a good teacher would know that being paid as he or she has
earned the money takes more responsibility and thinking ahead than
having the school holding on to your money so that you don't spend it
all and have nothing over the summer. The teachers that cannot budget
themselves to not spend every dime they make while working during the
school year are not the ones I want teaching my child. I would rather
have a teacher that teaches common sense than one that is highly
educated but can't make it on the salary that he or she has agreed to.
If you cannot make it on your own what good is that education?



My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional bridge.
No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in enough so I
don't really have to supplement them.

???


Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to
be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not
acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers are
NOT rewarded enough for their work.

A majority of teachers ARE rewarded enough for their work and for many
more than enough. A select few are NOT rewarded enough. IMHO. ;~)

On Aug 11, 5:00*pm, Han wrote:

I have no idea what kind of work you do. *Please tell me a little, or a
lot grin.

Been there, done that. *I never had a teaching job (students that is,
perhaps unfortunately). *I had to formulate a hypothesis, design

Han,

I work for a for-profit company. Always have. Granted, I never had
to write a grant paper but isn't that asking people for money??

I work in IT. I still sorta-kinda work on a mainframe and have been
in IT since 1978. This is an incredibly rough area to work because
there are always more than enough young bucks coming along who "know"
the latest and greatest everything. Many of them couldn't code
themselves around the corner but since they have written source code
in a particular language of the month, they get the job and the
dinosaurs are left out.

I have been in programming, operations, a DBA, EDI, project
management, you name it. I have had to re-educate myself at least a
dozen times over the years and all on my dime. I had to re-invent
myself twice as many times. The latest thing I have been cramming for
is Oracle. Personally, I the database sucks and the software suite is
even worse, but they wined and dined the people who write the checks
here, so it is what it is.

I have been forced to teach people my job on more than one occasion so
I could be shown the door. This is a fairly recent phenomenon with
offshore outsourcing. Let me tell you, the seething anger the first
time you talk to a smiling idiot who is harvesting all the knowledge
you have so he can have a job and feed his family while you have
nothing but uncertainty in front of you.

I am not complaining (much) because this is what happens in the field
I chose. I know it and I have grown to accept it. The fact of the
matter is that I will do whatever it takes NOT to take a handout from
anybody. I have never bitched and complained about anybody making
more money than me. And the only times I have ever whined some is
whenever I had to make a brain dump,er, i mean, knowledge transfer to
somebody else who isn't nearly as qualified as I was but is willing to
work for a lot less than I do.

Teachers have been insulated from this real world stuff for the most
part. I am not saying that teaching is not hard work. To be good at
anything takes hard work and dedication. But throwing money at
everything solves nothing.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 14:32:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/11/2011 1:07 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, wrote:

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
$150/m
o.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
with a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
for politicians.


Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute
was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this
year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the
healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up
in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine
periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like
Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the
easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are
being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the
school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us
white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on
evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us.
Why not the teachers, too?

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top
of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little
about staying late, and working weekends etc.



But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are there.
I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive
during the time that you are at work.

Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you would
have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every one does
not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top and they
are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that complain and
or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.

Can't replace them; tenure.

On 11 Aug 2011 21:28:03 GMT, Han wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
m:

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers
more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep
their jobs.

When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can
clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who
just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.

They don't *have* to. The private sector doesn't have the silly concept of
"tenure". If you don't perform, you're out!

Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at least
thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and nothing
during the summer, or to have it spread out.

They *do* get paid, whether they get paid over nine months or twelve, they get
paid a salary. They can (and often do) work a second job. In some states
they're also eligible for unemployment.

My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional bridge.
No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in enough so I
don't really have to supplement them.

You?

Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to
be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not
acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers are
NOT rewarded enough for their work.

Bring on the pay-for-performance, competition between schools, and dump
tenure. You can't just pay more, though.

" wrote in
:

On 11 Aug 2011 21:28:03 GMT, Han wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
om:

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers
more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them
keep their jobs.

When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can
clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who
just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.

They don't *have* to. The private sector doesn't have the silly
concept of "tenure". If you don't perform, you're out!

There are arguments in favor of tenure, but it should also be performance
dependent, IMO.

Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at
least thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and
nothing during the summer, or to have it spread out.

They *do* get paid, whether they get paid over nine months or twelve,
they get paid a salary. They can (and often do) work a second job.
In some states they're also eligible for unemployment.

As Leon pointed out, there is something to be said for letting them
budget themselves, so the summer without income can be lived through, so
to speak. Also, letting them pay you in 12 monthly portions gives them
an interest-free loan, something I am against on principle. OTOH, i can
see the ease of budgeting with the 12 monthly payments.

My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional
bridge. No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in
enough so I don't really have to supplement them.

You?

Obviously I don't have to, but seeing them struggle is no fun either.
Besides the granddaughters deserve to be helped, they're so good people.

Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching
to be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not
acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers
are NOT rewarded enough for their work.

Bring on the pay-for-performance, competition between schools, and
dump tenure. You can't just pay more, though.

I always remember the Latin teacher fulminating in our high school class
as the stupedest bunch he'd ever had. That's what he said and I think he
meant it. Some kids adored him, I hated him. But the point is that some
years a teacher may be dealt a bunch of "stupid" kids. Come evaluation
time, does that mean he should be demoted because that bunch of kids
underperformed? Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects
could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents do
with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better. People
will go live in those districts.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
:

Can't replace them; tenure.

That was the point. Many think that tenure should be modified to make it
easier to get rid of underperforming teachers.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 5:00*pm, Han wrote:

I have no idea what kind of work you do. *Please tell me a little, or
a lot grin.

Been there, done that. *I never had a teaching job (students that is,
perhaps unfortunately). *I had to formulate a hypothesis, design

Han,

I work for a for-profit company. Always have. Granted, I never had
to write a grant paper but isn't that asking people for money??

I work in IT. I still sorta-kinda work on a mainframe and have been
in IT since 1978. This is an incredibly rough area to work because
there are always more than enough young bucks coming along who "know"
the latest and greatest everything. Many of them couldn't code
themselves around the corner but since they have written source code
in a particular language of the month, they get the job and the
dinosaurs are left out.

I have been in programming, operations, a DBA, EDI, project
management, you name it. I have had to re-educate myself at least a
dozen times over the years and all on my dime. I had to re-invent
myself twice as many times. The latest thing I have been cramming for
is Oracle. Personally, I the database sucks and the software suite is
even worse, but they wined and dined the people who write the checks
here, so it is what it is.

I have been forced to teach people my job on more than one occasion so
I could be shown the door. This is a fairly recent phenomenon with
offshore outsourcing. Let me tell you, the seething anger the first
time you talk to a smiling idiot who is harvesting all the knowledge
you have so he can have a job and feed his family while you have
nothing but uncertainty in front of you.

I am not complaining (much) because this is what happens in the field
I chose. I know it and I have grown to accept it. The fact of the
matter is that I will do whatever it takes NOT to take a handout from
anybody. I have never bitched and complained about anybody making
more money than me. And the only times I have ever whined some is
whenever I had to make a brain dump,er, i mean, knowledge transfer to
somebody else who isn't nearly as qualified as I was but is willing to
work for a lot less than I do.

Teachers have been insulated from this real world stuff for the most
part. I am not saying that teaching is not hard work. To be good at
anything takes hard work and dedication. But throwing money at
everything solves nothing.

I have no experiences in the areas personally. SIL was very high up in
Lehman email worldwide. High salary etc, etc, but it burned him up.
They bought another company and SIL was told that he could go, but it
would be nice if he could transition the guy for a month or so. He also
got a very nice settlement. Sold his Lehman bonuses in time. As a high
school teacher earning a small fraction he is now immensely satisfied
and proud of his performance and of the kids he helps go to college
instead of into the street. Son is in sys admin or so now. I have no
real idea of what he does.

Databases. Weill Cornell switched their ancient systems for payroll,
purchasing etc. to an SAP web-based system. I had heard of SAP as a
highfaluting (sp) company, like Oracle (perhaps). After having had to
struggle with the anticustomer aspects of that system, I lost even more
respect for at least the Cornell and SAP IT people. I have never really
done any programming myself other than playing a bit with Applesoft ...
But I can figure out ipconfig grin.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
can do something too.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 12 Aug 2011 00:34:11 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

On 11 Aug 2011 21:28:03 GMT, Han wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news:SJydnYu18ccL2tnTnZ2dnUVZ5oCdnZ2d@giganews. com:

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers
more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them
keep their jobs.

When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can
clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who
just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.

They don't *have* to. The private sector doesn't have the silly
concept of "tenure". If you don't perform, you're out!

There are arguments in favor of tenure, but it should also be performance
dependent, IMO.

NO good ones, at least for primary and secondary grades. College, *maybe*.

Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at
least thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and
nothing during the summer, or to have it spread out.

They *do* get paid, whether they get paid over nine months or twelve,
they get paid a salary. They can (and often do) work a second job.
In some states they're also eligible for unemployment.

As Leon pointed out, there is something to be said for letting them
budget themselves, so the summer without income can be lived through, so
to speak. Also, letting them pay you in 12 monthly portions gives them
an interest-free loan, something I am against on principle. OTOH, i can
see the ease of budgeting with the 12 monthly payments.

That's a personal thing. The point is, they're paid a salary for work done.
If you want to call their salary $50K (or whatever)/9 or $50K/12 is
irrelevant.

My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional
bridge. No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in
enough so I don't really have to supplement them.

You?

Obviously I don't have to, but seeing them struggle is no fun either.
Besides the granddaughters deserve to be helped, they're so good people.

Aren't they making $80K? Let them live!

Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching
to be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not
acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers
are NOT rewarded enough for their work.

Bring on the pay-for-performance, competition between schools, and
dump tenure. You can't just pay more, though.

I always remember the Latin teacher fulminating in our high school class
as the stupedest bunch he'd ever had. That's what he said and I think he
meant it. Some kids adored him, I hated him. But the point is that some
years a teacher may be dealt a bunch of "stupid" kids. Come evaluation
time, does that mean he should be demoted because that bunch of kids
underperformed?

Yes. ...if you call not making a "bonus" a demotion. If I'm working for a
stupid boss or get stupid requirements, you bet it affects my pay.

Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects
could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents do
with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better. People
will go live in those districts.

So I'll mark you down as being in favor of a permanent underclass.

On 12 Aug 2011 00:35:34 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

Can't replace them; tenure.

That was the point. Many think that tenure should be modified to make it
easier to get rid of underperforming teachers.


There shouldn't *BE* tenure. There is *no* justification for it in the public
school system.

" wrote in
:

I'm agreeing with most of what I didn't quote.

You may be thinking 80K is a lot around here, but it isn't. I am happy to
help with extras That they couldn't afford for the kids if I didn't help.
Going into more details would be too personal, sorry.

Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects
could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents do
with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better. People
will go live in those districts.

So I'll mark you down as being in favor of a permanent underclass.

You know better than that. I'm in favor of helping everyone attain their
best. How is the problem/question. And in the spirit of American
competitiveness that I thought you would appreciate, I wrote the above
"Maybe " etc

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
:

On 12 Aug 2011 00:35:34 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
m:

Can't replace them; tenure.

That was the point. Many think that tenure should be modified to make
it easier to get rid of underperforming teachers.


There shouldn't *BE* tenure. There is *no* justification for it in
the public school system.

That is too absolute a statement for me to subscribe to. But I must admit
that I haven't exhaustively studied the pros and cons. You appear to have
more knowledge. Can you share?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 12 Aug 2011 01:14:42 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

I'm agreeing with most of what I didn't quote.

You may be thinking 80K is a lot around here, but it isn't. I am happy to
help with extras That they couldn't afford for the kids if I didn't help.
Going into more details would be too personal, sorry.

Don't want personal information, but if they can't live on that, move. It
really is that simple. I've done it, a few times.

Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects
could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents do
with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better. People
will go live in those districts.

So I'll mark you down as being in favor of a permanent underclass.

You know better than that.

That *is* what you're advocating.

I'm in favor of helping everyone attain their
best. How is the problem/question. And in the spirit of American
competitiveness that I thought you would appreciate, I wrote the above
"Maybe " etc

Let schools compete for their "customers". Attach the government tuition
check the check to the children. Stand back because things will change, fast!

On 12 Aug 2011 01:16:38 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

On 12 Aug 2011 00:35:34 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

Can't replace them; tenure.

That was the point. Many think that tenure should be modified to make
it easier to get rid of underperforming teachers.


There shouldn't *BE* tenure. There is *no* justification for it in
the public school system.

That is too absolute a statement for me to subscribe to. But I must admit
that I haven't exhaustively studied the pros and cons. You appear to have
more knowledge. Can you share?

Wrong. You seem to have a good reason to have tenure. You prove the
positive. I'm not going to waste time trying to prove a negative. We already
see what happens with tenure.

Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids
are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I can say
with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of thousands more are
grossly overpaid.

On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
can do something too.



My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive management, I had my
own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I had had enough and
turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every day
went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took a 60%
income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son immediately
started going to public schools when he started third grade. He had a
great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 student classroom to
a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
out of line. We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. All of the
students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
cared. I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers
would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
Bryan was. I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
Other kids did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. We thank God for that school and the
opportunities Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby sitter
school this school was by invitation only. This school operated much
like a college and many of the students had a hard time coping with the
first few weeks of school. Each class passed out the semester itinerary
and it was totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the
seminars, and schedule their own tests. The school taught time
management and responsibility. College bound graduates consistently
averaged above 97%. This school was not looking for smart kids, as the
only requirement to attend was that applicants conduct grade be
satisfactory or better. On the other hand, the teachers had to have
much better qualifications to teach at that school. There was never a
shortage of teachers waiting in the wings to fill a position should one
come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He, shall we
say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the curriculum would
be more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. He made his
first C his first semester. That never happened again. Three of his
professors tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer
to go towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college.
Another wanted him to change to investment management, and another
wanted him to work towards a federal tax degree. He stayed the course
and ended up graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum
Laude. One year later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had
filled all requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year
of work experience. He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not unusual
for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.


OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
can do something too.



My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive management, I had my
own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I had had enough and
turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every day
went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took a 60%
income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son immediately
started going to public schools when he started third grade. He had a
great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 student classroom to
a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
out of line. We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. All of the
students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
cared. I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers
would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
Bryan was. I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
Other kids did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. We thank God for that school and the opportunities
Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby sitter school this
school was by invitation only. This school operated much like a college
and many of the students had a hard time coping with the first few weeks
of school. Each class passed out the semester itinerary and it was
totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the seminars,
and schedule their own tests. The school taught time management and
responsibility. College bound graduates consistently averaged above 97%.
This school was not looking for smart kids, as the only requirement to
attend was that applicants conduct grade be satisfactory or better. On
the other hand, the teachers had to have much better qualifications to
teach at that school. There was never a shortage of teachers waiting in
the wings to fill a position should one come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He, shall we
say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the curriculum would be
more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. He made his first
C his first semester. That never happened again. Three of his professors
tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer to go
towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college. Another
wanted him to change to investment management, and another wanted him to
work towards a federal tax degree. He stayed the course and ended up
graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum Laude. One year
later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had filled all
requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year of work
experience. He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not unusual
for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.


Did he build any of the furniture in his house?

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids
are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I can say
with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of thousands more
are grossly overpaid.



They have a good union to assure that won't change too!

On 8/12/2011 12:02 AM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife
started
to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife
picked
them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the
morning to
help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner
and
can do something too.



My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive management, I had my
own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I had had enough and
turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every day
went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took a 60%
income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son immediately
started going to public schools when he started third grade. He had a
great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 student classroom to
a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
out of line. We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. All of the
students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
cared. I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers
would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
Bryan was. I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
Other kids did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. We thank God for that school and the opportunities
Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby sitter school this
school was by invitation only. This school operated much like a college
and many of the students had a hard time coping with the first few weeks
of school. Each class passed out the semester itinerary and it was
totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the seminars,
and schedule their own tests. The school taught time management and
responsibility. College bound graduates consistently averaged above 97%.
This school was not looking for smart kids, as the only requirement to
attend was that applicants conduct grade be satisfactory or better. On
the other hand, the teachers had to have much better qualifications to
teach at that school. There was never a shortage of teachers waiting in
the wings to fill a position should one come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He, shall we
say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the curriculum would be
more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. He made his first
C his first semester. That never happened again. Three of his professors
tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer to go
towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college. Another
wanted him to change to investment management, and another wanted him to
work towards a federal tax degree. He stayed the course and ended up
graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum Laude. One year
later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had filled all
requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year of work
experience. He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not unusual
for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.


Did he build any of the furniture in his house?

Actually he assisted me in building his night stand and dresser many
years ago.

" wrote in
:

On 12 Aug 2011 01:14:42 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
m:

I'm agreeing with most of what I didn't quote.

You may be thinking 80K is a lot around here, but it isn't. I am
happy to help with extras That they couldn't afford for the kids if I
didn't help. Going into more details would be too personal, sorry.

Don't want personal information, but if they can't live on that, move.
It really is that simple. I've done it, a few times.

Don't want to move from this idyllic place, a National Historical
Landmark http://radburn.org

Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects
could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents
do with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better.
People will go live in those districts.

So I'll mark you down as being in favor of a permanent underclass.

You know better than that.

That *is* what you're advocating.

Sorry, meant as a hypothetical possibility - "Maybe"

I'm in favor of helping everyone attain their
best. How is the problem/question. And in the spirit of American
competitiveness that I thought you would appreciate, I wrote the above
"Maybe " etc

Let schools compete for their "customers". Attach the government
tuition check the check to the children. Stand back because things
will change, fast!

No government tuition checks, please. Why impose another bureaucracy on
what already has plenty of paperpushers? Believe me, from my experiences
with granting agencies, instituting a simple paper check give-away will
lead to a need for 2-20 paper handlers per school, on top of the
paperhandlers at the "government" and not to speak of the possibilities
for gray or black markets.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:


The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be
educated by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far
superior to most today. Our educational system throws more money
at the problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A
higher salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee
you that if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5
years the same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would
not be learning any more than they are right now. If you want the
kids to learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher
standard, be re-certified periodically, and paid for their
performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones
doing it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing
to learn.
Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set
for life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult
now. It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation
because 95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that
house if I get a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on
the front 10 years but should I? If only the schools would teach
and require students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how
to make good financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money
should be done as a last resort. This is absolutely as important as
any subject being taught in school. With few exceptions if you have
to borrow money to buy something you probably need to reevaluate you
life style. If the wife works to help make ends meet you need to
reevaluate your life style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home,
plain and simple. When both parents are working, WHO is watching
the kids????? The teachers would have a lot more success in teaching
if a parent was at home when the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's,
but her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the
way it should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted
to live. When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were
easier on the regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too).
At first, we had had a babysitter, but after the third time that she
said, by the way, next Monday you have to find someone else because I
quit, my wife started to take in kids. Then we moved to New York,
and we got a babysitter. Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids
off later, and my wife picked them up around 4. Made for less family
time, but it worked well. Both my kids became good people. So, that
situation also can work. Now, both my daughter and SIL have to work,
and my wife wlks over in the morning to help the granddaughters off
to school, and is back there when they come home. We think they'll
be big enough to be a few hours after school by themselves, and if
not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and can do
something too.



My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6
years.
She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost
24
years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny
thing and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one
day when our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had
enough of my job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive
management, I had my own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had
I was the GM of a wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I
had had enough and turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2
week vacation and reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every
day went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took
a 60% income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son
immediately started going to public schools when he started third
grade. He had a great teacher that helped him transition from an 8
student classroom to a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in
school, strictly an A,B student, certainly better than his parents
ever did in school but my wife and I had to battle with the
incompetent teachers that would take home work and immediately throw
it in the trash can because some one was out of line. We saw this
type teacher behavior time and again and had one on ones with the
principal and teacher way too often. All of the students were treated
this way but we seemed to be the only parents that cared. I was the
first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any problems that
my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers would seek us
out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved Bryan was.
I don't think so much that we did any thing special other than one of
us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school. Other kids
did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. We thank God for that school and the
opportunities Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby
sitter school this school was by invitation only. This school
operated much like a college and many of the students had a hard time
coping with the first few weeks of school. Each class passed out the
semester itinerary and it was totally up to the student to perform all
the work, attend the seminars, and schedule their own tests. The
school taught time management and responsibility. College bound
graduates consistently averaged above 97%. This school was not
looking for smart kids, as the only requirement to attend was that
applicants conduct grade be satisfactory or better. On the other
hand, the teachers had to have much better qualifications to teach at
that school. There was never a shortage of teachers waiting in the
wings to fill a position should one come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores,
so so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section,
he was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He,
shall we say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the
curriculum would be more rigorous but the benefits would be long
lasting. He made his first C his first semester. That never happened
again. Three of his professors tried to get him to change his major
including a strong offer to go towards working on his doctorate and
teaching at the college. Another wanted him to change to investment
management, and another wanted him to work towards a federal tax
degree. He stayed the course and ended up graduating with a bachelors
in Accountancy, Summa Cum Laude. One year later he had his Masters
degree, 4 months later he had filled all requirements to become a CPA
except the for the required year of work experience. He passed all 4
CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not
unusual for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be
back at work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some
one being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.


OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

Great story. We need to clone you, your wife and Bryan many times
grin.

CONGRATULATIONS!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/12/2011 6:26 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in


OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

Great story. We need to clone you, your wife and Bryan many times
grin.

CONGRATULATIONS!!


The beers were 8.7% alcohol. ;~) My son turned me on to "stouts"

Thank you Han, but I think there was a mix up at the hospital 23 years
ago. ;~)

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2011 6:26 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in


OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

Great story. We need to clone you, your wife and Bryan many times
grin.

CONGRATULATIONS!!


The beers were 8.7% alcohol. ;~) My son turned me on to "stouts"

Thank you Han, but I think there was a mix up at the hospital 23 years
ago. ;~)

LOL!
Someone asked why my son had red hair, just like the todller of the other
couple in the 2-family home. I said, milkman.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:

snip of the key to educating a child

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

"Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal counsel
... it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!); and Mom was seen several time a week,
walking the halls and visiting with the teachers.

The rationale was that they were educating our kid, we were paying for
the education, and we believed in letting them know, in no uncertain
terms, that we, as involved parents, demanded stellar performance out of
both the kid, _and the teacher_.

Although my youngest was "main stream", she was a special education kid,
with an above average IQ, who, simply due to a severe learning
disability, required alternative methods to gauge the depth of what she
actually learned from her school work. It was amazing how many teachers
balked at the (legal) requirement for them to do so.

It is certain that without the actions in the first paragraph above,
this kid would not have ever gone on to college (as she did), and would
have fallen through the ever widening cracks in the educational system.

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the face,
my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!

Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

You're authorized, Bubba.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 12, 12:46*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:









Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet *wrote in
m:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet * wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
to most today. *Our educational system throws more money at the
problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. *A higher
salary is not going to get a better teacher. *I guarantee you that
if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
learning any more than they are right now. *If you want the kids to
learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. *Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
* Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. *Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. *OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. *Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. *Yes I can afford that house if I get
a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
years but should I? *If only the schools would teach and require
students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
taught in school. *With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. *If the
wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. *When
both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. *My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
her mother is another story. *(See, it doesn't always work the way it
should). *For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). *At first, we had
had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
to take in kids. *Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
them up around 4. *Made for less family time, but it worked well. *Both
my kids became good people. *So, that situation also can work. *Now, both
my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
home. *We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
can do something too.

My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
* She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
years ago our son was born. *We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
job, I hated it. *I have always been in automotive management, I had my
own tire store at 21. *The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
wholesale AC/Delco distributor. *Finally I said I had had enough and
turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. *Not going to a job every day
went against every survival instinct that I had. *We probably took a 60%
income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. *My son immediately
started going to public schools when he started third grade. *He had a
great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 *student classroom to
a 35 student class room. *Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
out of line. *We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. *All of the
students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
cared. *I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. *Teachers
would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
Bryan was. * I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
Other kids did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. *He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. *We thank God for that school and the
opportunities Bryan had at that school. *Unlike the typical baby sitter
school this school was by invitation only. *This school operated much
like a college and many of the students had a hard time coping with the
first few weeks of school. *Each class passed out the semester itinerary
and it was totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the
seminars, and schedule their own tests. *The school taught time
management and responsibility. *College bound graduates consistently
averaged above 97%. *This school was not looking for smart kids, as the
only requirement to attend was that applicants conduct grade be
satisfactory or better. *On the other hand, the teachers had to have
much better qualifications to teach at that school. *There was never a
shortage of teachers waiting in the wings to fill a position should one
come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. *He, shall we
say, was lucky to be accepted. *I warned him that the curriculum would
be more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. *He made his
first C his first semester. *That never happened again. *Three of his
professors tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer
to go towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college.
Another wanted him to change to investment management, and another
wanted him to work towards a *federal tax degree. *He stayed the course
and ended up graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum
Laude. *One year later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had
filled all requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year
of work experience. *He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. *They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. *He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. *He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. *Not unusual
for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. *Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

OK,OK,OK, *I'll stop bragging! *I've had TWO beers. *;~)

Hey, I don't two beers to brag. I'm proud of my 3 girls. 2 of them
are playing with nuclear generators and the youngest off to college
next Sept. She just aced her grade 11 final in math.... MUCH to our
surprise.
Angela just finished her Masters so the academic atmosphere has proven
fertile grounds for the youngest to give it an extra push. Monkey see
monkey do.

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:

snip of the key to educating a child

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some
one being at home when he got home from school.

"Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal
counsel .. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they
would pay attention, and by gawd they did!); and Mom was seen several
time a week, walking the halls and visiting with the teachers.

The rationale was that they were educating our kid, we were paying for
the education, and we believed in letting them know, in no uncertain
terms, that we, as involved parents, demanded stellar performance out
of both the kid, _and the teacher_.

Although my youngest was "main stream", she was a special education
kid, with an above average IQ, who, simply due to a severe learning
disability, required alternative methods to gauge the depth of what
she actually learned from her school work. It was amazing how many
teachers balked at the (legal) requirement for them to do so.

It is certain that without the actions in the first paragraph above,
this kid would not have ever gone on to college (as she did), and
would have fallen through the ever widening cracks in the educational
system.

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted,
mostly by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_
concerned with its own perpetuation in current form.

You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the
face, my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!

Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it
today.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

You're authorized, Bubba.

Hey guys, just confirming that all of you are very correct and right!!
Parental involvement is key. As grandparents, we try to keeep that up,
but we know we are slowing down ... Any and all accomplishments in this
family are almost solely attributable to my wife. Credit goes were
credit is due.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article , Swingman wrote:

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed
it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html

And it has only gotten worse since then.

On 8/12/2011 8:22 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:
snip


You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the face,
my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!

Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

I can not think of a better way to produce good grand kids. ;~)

On 8/12/2011 8:36 AM, Robatoy wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:46 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:









Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
Ask the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
the kids got home.

Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
can do something too.

My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive management, I had my
own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I had had enough and
turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every day
went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took a 60%
income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son immediately
started going to public schools when he started third grade. He had a
great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 student classroom to
a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
out of line. We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. All of the
students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
cared. I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers
would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
Bryan was. I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
Other kids did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. We thank God for that school and the
opportunities Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby sitter
school this school was by invitation only. This school operated much
like a college and many of the students had a hard time coping with the
first few weeks of school. Each class passed out the semester itinerary
and it was totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the
seminars, and schedule their own tests. The school taught time
management and responsibility. College bound graduates consistently
averaged above 97%. This school was not looking for smart kids, as the
only requirement to attend was that applicants conduct grade be
satisfactory or better. On the other hand, the teachers had to have
much better qualifications to teach at that school. There was never a
shortage of teachers waiting in the wings to fill a position should one
come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He, shall we
say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the curriculum would
be more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. He made his
first C his first semester. That never happened again. Three of his
professors tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer
to go towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college.
Another wanted him to change to investment management, and another
wanted him to work towards a federal tax degree. He stayed the course
and ended up graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum
Laude. One year later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had
filled all requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year
of work experience. He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not unusual
for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

Hey, I don't two beers to brag. I'm proud of my 3 girls. 2 of them
are playing with nuclear generators and the youngest off to college
next Sept. She just aced her grade 11 final in math.... MUCH to our
surprise.
Angela just finished her Masters so the academic atmosphere has proven
fertile grounds for the youngest to give it an extra push. Monkey see
monkey do.

Excellent examples the two of you have set! Girls are easy, right; ;~0

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2011 8:22 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:
snip


You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the
face, my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!

Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it
today.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally"
debt free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old
guy.

About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

I can not think of a better way to produce good grand kids. ;~)

Watch out Bryan, and ???


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleLMSdnWo2AuO5tNjTnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@giganews. com, wrote:

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed
it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html


Great link!

And it has only gotten worse since then.

Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
overall, to improve the situation.

As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.

All one has to do is take a look at the sorry conditions of the school
system in Detroit, MI.

To put the blame for that fiasco on anything other than progressive
educational dogma, which has been the ONLY guiding factor in Detroit for
the past 40 years, is patently ridiculous.

... and true to form, Rachel Maddow, on MSNBC the other night, blamed
the sorry state of the Detroit schools, and in particular the closing of
a High School for pregnant girsl in Detroit, on "conservatives"!

Go farking figure ...

We don't have a chance with both extremes trumpeting that kind of
totally irresponsible journalism.

(Yes ... I watch MSNBC nightly just to get a picture of both extremes, I
already know what divisive BS is being slobbered in the public trough
from the other extreme)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/2011 10:04 AM, Han wrote:

Watch out Bryan, and ???

Trust me, if I thought we could get away with it, my people would
currently be talking to Leon's people, non stop!!

There are damn few twenty something males in this culture today that
aren't total doofuses ...

(My initial thought when meeting most of them is to reach over, grab
them by the collar, and slap the **** out of 'em to start as my
introduction) g

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/12/2011 10:04 AM, Han wrote:

Watch out Bryan, and ???

Trust me, if I thought we could get away with it, my people would
currently be talking to Leon's people, non stop!!

There are damn few twenty something males in this culture today that
aren't total doofuses ...

(My initial thought when meeting most of them is to reach over, grab
them by the collar, and slap the **** out of 'em to start as my
introduction) g

Yeah, I'm wondering who my 15 year-old granddaughter is going to bring home
.... Bet you'though it's a geek ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:

snip of the key to educating a child

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

"Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal counsel
.. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!); and Mom was seen several time a week,
walking the halls and visiting with the teachers.

The rationale was that they were educating our kid, we were paying for
the education, and we believed in letting them know, in no uncertain
terms, that we, as involved parents, demanded stellar performance out of
both the kid, _and the teacher_.

Although my youngest was "main stream", she was a special education kid,
with an above average IQ, who, simply due to a severe learning
disability, required alternative methods to gauge the depth of what she
actually learned from her school work. It was amazing how many teachers
balked at the (legal) requirement for them to do so.

I agree with you that "parental involvement" is key. You and your wife
were obviously were very thoughtful parents!

As far as the balking, I don't know anyone who enjoys more legal
involvement in his or her life. Helping a student is one thing, helping
a student with a lawyer standing behind him or her feels like
another--even if it shouldn't. It might feel like having a police
officer drive with you to work everyday. In short, the balking was
probably, hopefully, just human nature. I think in truth, some teachers
give his or her all, and some give much less--just like people you'll
find in every profession.

I think it really is quite fair to say that a 7:00-3:00 job as a middle
or high school teacher can be highly-taxing. I see what it does to my
wife... BTW, I know from her experience that student performance is
high (off the charts, really), where parental involvement is very high.
And much lower where parents, perhaps due to their concern about putting
food on the table, are not as involved. This raises a whole can of
worms as to how to "fix the educational system".... Maybe the
educational system begins long before the student enters a school?

Maybe we should require people to get some training before they have
children? Would there be any political objection (ha! ha! ha!)?



It is certain that without the actions in the first paragraph above,
this kid would not have ever gone on to college (as she did), and would
have fallen through the ever widening cracks in the educational system.

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the face,
my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!

Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

You're authorized, Bubba.

Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 10:04 AM, Han wrote:

Watch out Bryan, and ???

Trust me, if I thought we could get away with it, my people would
currently be talking to Leon's people, non stop!!

There are damn few twenty something males in this culture today that
aren't total doofuses ...

I didn't look it up. By "doofuses" do you mean glued to their
technology, have too much moose in their hair, that they are
pre-occupied with video games, or something else? I don't know enough
20-something males to offer much of an opinion.


(My initial thought when meeting most of them is to reach over, grab
them by the collar, and slap the **** out of 'em to start as my
introduction) g