Bill wrote in :

Maybe we should require people to get some training before they have
children? Would there be any political objection (ha! ha! ha!)?

sarcasm
I've always been in favor of something in the drinking water that would
prevent pregnancy. After you get your license to have a kid, you can get
the antidote.

/sarcasm

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/12/2011 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal counsel
.. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!);

As far as the balking, I don't know anyone who enjoys more legal
involvement in his or her life. Helping a student is one thing, helping
a student with a lawyer standing behind him or her feels like
another--even if it shouldn't. It might feel like having a police
officer drive with you to work everyday. In short, the balking was
probably, hopefully, just human nature. I think in truth, some teachers
give his or her all, and some give much less--just like people you'll
find in every profession.

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!

I had one minority (a misnomer in itself because the school district is
92% "minority") teacher call my daughter "Hitler's spawn", in class,
because she is blonde and blue-eyed (they waited to tell me until after
the school year for fear of what I'd do ... and they were right to do
so). This was verified by numerous kids in class and was reported to the
(mostly "minority") administration and nothing was ever done about it.

I have a handwritten note on a test returned to my daughter marking
wrong her correct "yes" response to the question "did Macbeth die?"

I had another teacher tell me that she did not modify a test, as
required by IEP, because "it was a "quiz" and not a "test"".

My immediate, and loud, response to that was: "Just WTF makes you think
my daughter's disability disappears just because you changed the ****ing
terminology??"

I had another teacher flat ass refuse to modify any of my daughters
testing as absolutely REQUIRED by State law as part of a Special Ed's
student's "Individual Education Plan" ... a legal contract under State
law. That's right just said he was not going to do it!

That SOB got "reassigned to a administrative position" quickly.

Yes, that's right, it takes a ****ing legal contract in some instances
to get a kid an education today ... and, you can bet your sweet ****ing
ass that I will use ALL the heavy artillery, including the threat of
lawyers and legal action to make sure these sorry ****heads, and there
are a bunch of them in that category, to what they are paid to do.

You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.

If you ever sit across the table from me, and I'm paying you to do a
job, you are going to do what I deem proper and you bet your sweet ass
your going to do it to MY satisfaction ... teacher or no!

****ing "balking" ... WTF???

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/11 2:30 PM, Swingman wrote:


You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.

Holy crap, I pay less than $2000 per year in property taxes, and of that
a little over a quarter goes to school taxes. Time for you to move.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 8/12/2011 1:39 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 8/12/11 2:30 PM, Swingman wrote:


You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.

Holy crap, I pay less than $2000 per year in property taxes, and of that
a little over a quarter goes to school taxes. Time for you to move.

I would love to ... problem is, SWMBO has one of the most intellectually
rewarding vocations, not just for her, but for the kids involved, that
requires her presence in close proximity to her business.

Besides, I built this house, I like it, I sweat daily to make it the
home it is, I made all the furniture in it, and I don't want the ****ing
government running my ass out because of their insatiable appetite for
my hard earned money.

If it wasn't for that, I'd be living next door to someone with a three
car garage for a shop, so we could stack'em, and some of this **** is
getting heavy and hard to move by your-no-longer-spring-chicken-self.



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/2011 12:37 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 10:04 AM, Han wrote:

Watch out Bryan, and ???

Trust me, if I thought we could get away with it, my people would
currently be talking to Leon's people, non stop!!

There are damn few twenty something males in this culture today that
aren't total doofuses ...

I didn't look it up. By "doofuses" do you mean glued to their
technology, have too much moose in their hair, that they are
pre-occupied with video games, or something else? I don't know enough
20-something males to offer much of an opinion.


(My initial thought when meeting most of them is to reach over, grab
them by the collar, and slap the **** out of 'em to start as my
introduction) g



Darn instead of Damn

Doofus instead of Dip****

On 8/12/2011 1:30 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal counsel
.. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!);

As far as the balking, I don't know anyone who enjoys more legal
involvement in his or her life. Helping a student is one thing, helping
a student with a lawyer standing behind him or her feels like
another--even if it shouldn't. It might feel like having a police
officer drive with you to work everyday. In short, the balking was
probably, hopefully, just human nature. I think in truth, some teachers
give his or her all, and some give much less--just like people you'll
find in every profession.

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!

I had one minority (a misnomer in itself because the school district is
92% "minority") teacher call my daughter "Hitler's spawn", in class,
because she is blonde and blue-eyed (they waited to tell me until after
the school year for fear of what I'd do ... and they were right to do
so). This was verified by numerous kids in class and was reported to the
(mostly "minority") administration and nothing was ever done about it.

I have a handwritten note on a test returned to my daughter marking
wrong her correct "yes" response to the question "did Macbeth die?"

I had another teacher tell me that she did not modify a test, as
required by IEP, because "it was a "quiz" and not a "test"".

My immediate, and loud, response to that was: "Just WTF makes you think
my daughter's disability disappears just because you changed the ****ing
terminology??"

I had another teacher flat ass refuse to modify any of my daughters
testing as absolutely REQUIRED by State law as part of a Special Ed's
student's "Individual Education Plan" ... a legal contract under State
law. That's right just said he was not going to do it!

That SOB got "reassigned to a administrative position" quickly.

Yes, that's right, it takes a ****ing legal contract in some instances
to get a kid an education today ... and, you can bet your sweet ****ing
ass that I will use ALL the heavy artillery, including the threat of
lawyers and legal action to make sure these sorry ****heads, and there
are a bunch of them in that category, to what they are paid to do.

You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.

If you ever sit across the table from me, and I'm paying you to do a
job, you are going to do what I deem proper and you bet your sweet ass
your going to do it to MY satisfaction ... teacher or no!

****ing "balking" ... WTF???

Ok, take a big breath, exhale and let him have it again!

On 8/12/2011 2:20 PM, Leon wrote:
On 8/12/2011 1:30 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal
counsel
.. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!);

As far as the balking, I don't know anyone who enjoys more legal
involvement in his or her life. Helping a student is one thing, helping
a student with a lawyer standing behind him or her feels like
another--even if it shouldn't. It might feel like having a police
officer drive with you to work everyday. In short, the balking was
probably, hopefully, just human nature. I think in truth, some teachers
give his or her all, and some give much less--just like people you'll
find in every profession.

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!

I had one minority (a misnomer in itself because the school district is
92% "minority") teacher call my daughter "Hitler's spawn", in class,
because she is blonde and blue-eyed (they waited to tell me until after
the school year for fear of what I'd do ... and they were right to do
so). This was verified by numerous kids in class and was reported to the
(mostly "minority") administration and nothing was ever done about it.

I have a handwritten note on a test returned to my daughter marking
wrong her correct "yes" response to the question "did Macbeth die?"

I had another teacher tell me that she did not modify a test, as
required by IEP, because "it was a "quiz" and not a "test"".

My immediate, and loud, response to that was: "Just WTF makes you think
my daughter's disability disappears just because you changed the ****ing
terminology??"

I had another teacher flat ass refuse to modify any of my daughters
testing as absolutely REQUIRED by State law as part of a Special Ed's
student's "Individual Education Plan" ... a legal contract under State
law. That's right just said he was not going to do it!

That SOB got "reassigned to a administrative position" quickly.

Yes, that's right, it takes a ****ing legal contract in some instances
to get a kid an education today ... and, you can bet your sweet ****ing
ass that I will use ALL the heavy artillery, including the threat of
lawyers and legal action to make sure these sorry ****heads, and there
are a bunch of them in that category, to what they are paid to do.

You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.

If you ever sit across the table from me, and I'm paying you to do a
job, you are going to do what I deem proper and you bet your sweet ass
your going to do it to MY satisfaction ... teacher or no!

****ing "balking" ... WTF???

Ok, take a big breath, exhale and let him have it again!

Sorry, my typing fingers were verily ****ed at that sanctimonious
"balking" BS.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleLMSdnWo2AuO5tNjTnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed
it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html


Great link!

And it has only gotten worse since then.

Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
overall, to improve the situation.

As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.

You do recall correctly. I even have a bumper sticker on my car: "I'm proud of
my Eagle Scout".

And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first two
years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools all the
way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his choice, but
obviously we're pleased).

The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher was
completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do anything
about it -- assistant principal told my wife, when she requested they transfer
our son to a different classroom, that "if we did that, then every parent
would be asking for a transfer." Yeah, well, that oughta tell you something
about that teacher, ya think? So we transferred him right out of the whole
school district.

We were fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but seeing the results, the
sacrifice was worth it. Both boys wound up with very generous college
scholarships. Ken's in law school now.

On 12 Aug 2011 11:21:24 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

On 12 Aug 2011 01:14:42 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

I'm agreeing with most of what I didn't quote.

You may be thinking 80K is a lot around here, but it isn't. I am
happy to help with extras That they couldn't afford for the kids if I
didn't help. Going into more details would be too personal, sorry.

Don't want personal information, but if they can't live on that, move.
It really is that simple. I've done it, a few times.

Don't want to move from this idyllic place, a National Historical
Landmark http://radburn.org

Then starve, and stop whining.

Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects
could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents
do with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better.
People will go live in those districts.

So I'll mark you down as being in favor of a permanent underclass.

You know better than that.

That *is* what you're advocating.

Sorry, meant as a hypothetical possibility - "Maybe"

When you propose a "solution" you really do have to look at the likely
results.

I'm in favor of helping everyone attain their
best. How is the problem/question. And in the spirit of American
competitiveness that I thought you would appreciate, I wrote the above
"Maybe " etc

Let schools compete for their "customers". Attach the government
tuition check the check to the children. Stand back because things
will change, fast!

No government tuition checks, please. Why impose another bureaucracy on
what already has plenty of paperpushers? Believe me, from my experiences
with granting agencies, instituting a simple paper check give-away will
lead to a need for 2-20 paper handlers per school, on top of the
paperhandlers at the "government" and not to speak of the possibilities
for gray or black markets.

It has to be done that way so parents can choose the schools. Without that
choice (competition) the system cannot change.

Swingman wrote:

You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.
------------------------------
Since you are running a business from a residential location, are you
being made to pay commerical tax rates rather than residential?

Wouldn't be the first time.

Lew
..

On Aug 12, 2:30*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:

Swingman wrote:
We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal counsel
.. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!);
As far as the balking, I don't know anyone who enjoys more legal
involvement in his or her life. Helping a student is one thing, helping
a student with a lawyer standing behind him or her feels like
another--even if it shouldn't. It might feel like having a police
officer drive with you to work everyday. In short, the balking was
probably, hopefully, just human nature. I think in truth, some teachers
give his or her all, and some give much less--just like people you'll
find in every profession.

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!

I had one minority (a misnomer in itself because the school district is
92% "minority") teacher call my daughter "Hitler's spawn", in class,
because she is blonde and blue-eyed (they waited to tell me until after
the school year for fear of what I'd do ... and they were right to do
so). This was verified by numerous kids in class and was reported to the
(mostly "minority") administration and nothing was ever done about it.

I have a handwritten note on a test returned to my daughter marking
wrong her correct "yes" response to the question "did Macbeth die?"

I had another teacher tell me that she did not modify a test, as
required by IEP, because "it was a "quiz" and not a "test"".

My immediate, and loud, response to that was: "Just WTF makes you think
my daughter's disability disappears just because you changed the ****ing
terminology??"

I had another teacher flat ass refuse to modify any of my daughters
testing as absolutely REQUIRED by State law as part of a Special Ed's
student's "Individual Education Plan" ... a legal contract under State
law. That's right just said he was not going to do it!

That SOB got "reassigned to a administrative position" quickly.

Yes, that's right, it takes a ****ing legal contract in some instances
to get a kid an education today ... and, you can bet your sweet ****ing
ass that I will use ALL the heavy artillery, including the threat of
lawyers and legal action to make sure these sorry ****heads, and there
are a bunch of them in that category, to what they are paid to do.

You know what my ****ing school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
swallowing that.

If you ever sit across the table from me, and I'm paying you to do a
job, you are going to do what I deem proper and you bet your sweet ass
your going to do it to MY satisfaction ... teacher or no!

****ing "balking" ... WTF???

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Of course the other option would be to say what you really think. ^5's

On 8/12/2011 5:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleCLOdnb8e587E39jTnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews. com, wrote:
On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleLMSdnWo2AuO5tNjTnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed
it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html


Great link!

And it has only gotten worse since then.

Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
overall, to improve the situation.

As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.

You do recall correctly. I even have a bumper sticker on my car: "I'm proud of
my Eagle Scout".

And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first two
years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools all the
way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his choice, but
obviously we're pleased).

The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher was
completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do anything
about it -- assistant principal told my wife, when she requested they transfer
our son to a different classroom, that "if we did that, then every parent
would be asking for a transfer." Yeah, well, that oughta tell you something
about that teacher, ya think? So we transferred him right out of the whole
school district.

We were fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but seeing the results, the
sacrifice was worth it. Both boys wound up with very generous college
scholarships. Ken's in law school now.

I left the entire thing in instead of snipping

63% of the student body in HISD in 2010 were "At Risk" students! 63% of
over 200,000 students!!!

Where are the parents??

Sheeesh ... this tells you immediately what the culture is going to be
like in ten years, yet folks continue to bop thru life with the idea
that "Happy Days" is what the current educational system is like ... the
reality is that much of it is a cesspool of total and demonstrable
incompetence.

Just imagine what the children of these 63% are going to be like!

I chose to send my daughter to public schools because I'm paying for it
and I was bound and determined to make it work ... but damn if it wasn't
an eye opener, and a lot of hard work to boot.

I was raised Catholic but always had a great respect for the Jews of
this country because they heretofore always sent their kids to public
schools in the US and, as a result, made those schools better for all
concerned with their strong family ties and parental involvement ...
that is no longer true. Most of my Jewish friend's children, of the same
age as my youngest daughter, went to private schools.

Given the choice, there is no way I would go through that again.

Due to political correctness, and to a large measure progressive
thinking (if you can call it that), we have squandered the only legacy
that really counts for the future ... an education for our children.

And, for those who think an education at the much vaunted universities
in America is worth more than a warm bucket of spit these days, open
your eyes with this:

http://wouclips.wordpress.com/2011/0...sive-colleges/

/rant

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Doug Miller" wrote
And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first two
years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools all
the
way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his choice,
but
obviously we're pleased).

The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher was
completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do
anything
about it --



Depends on where you live. Our kids went to catholic school in Philly. When
we moved to CT, we enrolled them in the catholic school here. Big mistake.
Got them out before there minds rotted from lack of use. While the public
school was still not up the our standards, it was much better than the
catholic school. There are also two private schools in the area, but
tuition is more than most colleges.

Swingman wrote:

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!


I wasn't excusing it. You introduced the term "balking". I thought it
meant hesitating, but evidently it's much stronger than that (as I just
looked it up).

How many government organizations do you know that run really well?
Good instruction can be found in many private schools. Catholic schools
near Indianapolis seem to be graduating a high percentage of excellent
students. In contrast, Indianapolis Publis Schools (IPS) has a very poor
reputation. My wife is not inclined to switch to IPS even though she
would probably receive a significant pay increase.

You made the system work well for you. Maybe you should run for
superintendant? : ) Lots of things are not optimal (i.e. "messed up")
in this country...not just schools. I thought the GOP looked bad during
the debt-ceiling discussions.

Bill

Leon wrote:

****ing "balking" ... WTF???

Ok, take a big breath, exhale and let him have it again!


Gee thanks! LOL : )

Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!


I wasn't excusing it. You introduced the term "balking". I thought it
meant hesitating, but evidently it's much stronger than that (as I just
looked it up).

How many government organizations do you know that run really well? Good
instruction can be found in many private schools. Catholic schools near
Indianapolis seem to be graduating a high percentage of excellent
students. In contrast, Indianapolis Publis Schools (IPS) has a very poor
reputation. My wife is not inclined to switch to IPS even though she
would probably receive a significant pay increase.

You made the system work well for you. Maybe you should run for
superintendant? : ) Lots of things are not optimal (i.e. "messed up") in
this country...not just schools. I thought the GOP looked bad during the
debt-ceiling discussions.

Bill


More trouble:

http://news.yahoo.com/boy-killed-pri...163646561.html

On 8/12/2011 8:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 5:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleCLOdnb8e587E39jTnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleLMSdnWo2AuO5tNjTnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted,
mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well
have viewed
it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html


Great link!

And it has only gotten worse since then.

Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
overall, to improve the situation.

As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.

You do recall correctly. I even have a bumper sticker on my car: "I'm
proud of
my Eagle Scout".

And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first
two
years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools
all the
way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his
choice, but
obviously we're pleased).

The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher
was
completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do
anything
about it -- assistant principal told my wife, when she requested they
transfer
our son to a different classroom, that "if we did that, then every parent
would be asking for a transfer." Yeah, well, that oughta tell you
something
about that teacher, ya think? So we transferred him right out of the
whole
school district.

We were fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but seeing the
results, the
sacrifice was worth it. Both boys wound up with very generous college
scholarships. Ken's in law school now.

I left the entire thing in instead of snipping

63% of the student body in HISD in 2010 were "At Risk" students! 63% of
over 200,000 students!!!

Where are the parents??

Sheeesh ... this tells you immediately what the culture is going to be
like in ten years, yet folks continue to bop thru life with the idea
that "Happy Days" is what the current educational system is like ... the
reality is that much of it is a cesspool of total and demonstrable
incompetence.

Just imagine what the children of these 63% are going to be like!

I chose to send my daughter to public schools because I'm paying for it
and I was bound and determined to make it work ... but damn if it wasn't
an eye opener, and a lot of hard work to boot.

I was raised Catholic but always had a great respect for the Jews of
this country because they heretofore always sent their kids to public
schools in the US and, as a result, made those schools better for all
concerned with their strong family ties and parental involvement ...
that is no longer true. Most of my Jewish friend's children, of the same
age as my youngest daughter, went to private schools.

Given the choice, there is no way I would go through that again.

Due to political correctness, and to a large measure progressive
thinking (if you can call it that), we have squandered the only legacy
that really counts for the future ... an education for our children.

And, for those who think an education at the much vaunted universities
in America is worth more than a warm bucket of spit these days, open
your eyes with this:

http://wouclips.wordpress.com/2011/0...sive-colleges/


/rant

When Bryan was choosing between colleges he was most interested in Rice
and UofH. His HS counselor said that he had the grades for Rice but he
would most likely be passed over for a "non-white", foreign student, or
female. We drove around and through the campus prior to that meeting
and I noticed a similar mix in the student body.

I early on told Bryan that the University did not matter as far as
career was concerned so much as what you actually learned. I did tell
him that an Ivy league school was going to help him get his first job
but after that his work ethic and reputation was going to trump any
school he attended.

When he was interning with KPMG he heard mention that they typically
choose more students from UofH over UT and A&M because of their
experience. Most all of the UofH students had at least part time jobs
where as the more privlidged students that simply went to school had no
work experience and had to be taught "everything".

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

On 8/12/2011 11:28 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:

****ing "balking" ... WTF???

Ok, take a big breath, exhale and let him have it again!


Gee thanks! LOL : )

Sorry I was sucked in by the excitement of the moment. ;~)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:26:51 -0400, Bill wrote:

Swingman wrote:

WTF is this "balking" ****?

Let me assure that many teacher's in today's educational system are not
the altruistic souls you think. Open your eyes!


I wasn't excusing it. You introduced the term "balking". I thought it
meant hesitating, but evidently it's much stronger than that (as I just
looked it up).

How many government organizations do you know that run really well?

The military. More expensive than it needs to be, but it is run well. Other
than that, well... That's the reason government _must_ be greatly limited.

Good instruction can be found in many private schools. Catholic schools
near Indianapolis seem to be graduating a high percentage of excellent
students. In contrast, Indianapolis Publis Schools (IPS) has a very poor
reputation. My wife is not inclined to switch to IPS even though she
would probably receive a significant pay increase.

Money isn't everything. How many here could make more money doing something
else?

You made the system work well for you. Maybe you should run for
superintendant? : ) Lots of things are not optimal (i.e. "messed up")
in this country...not just schools.

That's the problem. You, and too many others, are looking for government to
help. It's *not* going to.

I thought the GOP looked bad during the debt-ceiling discussions.

Yes, they should have gotten a *lot* more.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:40:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/12/2011 8:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 5:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleCLOdnb8e587E39jTnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleLMSdnWo2AuO5tNjTnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted,
mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well
have viewed
it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html


Great link!

And it has only gotten worse since then.

Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
overall, to improve the situation.

As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.

You do recall correctly. I even have a bumper sticker on my car: "I'm
proud of
my Eagle Scout".

And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first
two
years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools
all the
way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his
choice, but
obviously we're pleased).

The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher
was
completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do
anything
about it -- assistant principal told my wife, when she requested they
transfer
our son to a different classroom, that "if we did that, then every parent
would be asking for a transfer." Yeah, well, that oughta tell you
something
about that teacher, ya think? So we transferred him right out of the
whole
school district.

We were fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but seeing the
results, the
sacrifice was worth it. Both boys wound up with very generous college
scholarships. Ken's in law school now.

I left the entire thing in instead of snipping

63% of the student body in HISD in 2010 were "At Risk" students! 63% of
over 200,000 students!!!

Where are the parents??

Sheeesh ... this tells you immediately what the culture is going to be
like in ten years, yet folks continue to bop thru life with the idea
that "Happy Days" is what the current educational system is like ... the
reality is that much of it is a cesspool of total and demonstrable
incompetence.

Just imagine what the children of these 63% are going to be like!

I chose to send my daughter to public schools because I'm paying for it
and I was bound and determined to make it work ... but damn if it wasn't
an eye opener, and a lot of hard work to boot.

I was raised Catholic but always had a great respect for the Jews of
this country because they heretofore always sent their kids to public
schools in the US and, as a result, made those schools better for all
concerned with their strong family ties and parental involvement ...
that is no longer true. Most of my Jewish friend's children, of the same
age as my youngest daughter, went to private schools.

Given the choice, there is no way I would go through that again.

Due to political correctness, and to a large measure progressive
thinking (if you can call it that), we have squandered the only legacy
that really counts for the future ... an education for our children.

And, for those who think an education at the much vaunted universities
in America is worth more than a warm bucket of spit these days, open
your eyes with this:

http://wouclips.wordpress.com/2011/0...sive-colleges/


/rant

When Bryan was choosing between colleges he was most interested in Rice
and UofH. His HS counselor said that he had the grades for Rice but he
would most likely be passed over for a "non-white", foreign student, or
female. We drove around and through the campus prior to that meeting
and I noticed a similar mix in the student body.

I early on told Bryan that the University did not matter as far as
career was concerned so much as what you actually learned. I did tell
him that an Ivy league school was going to help him get his first job
but after that his work ethic and reputation was going to trump any
school he attended.

Right, but that first job is far more important than the college. But the
college gets that first job.

When he was interning with KPMG he heard mention that they typically
choose more students from UofH over UT and A&M because of their
experience. Most all of the UofH students had at least part time jobs
where as the more privlidged students that simply went to school had no
work experience and had to be taught "everything".

That's the reason I got my first job. I worked as a technician for the
university while I was in college. The hiring manager liked people who worked
over people who study. ;-)

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

I did get first pick of classes in my major, not because of honors but rather
I worked for the department (had to schedule classes and work). Yes, it was a
big perk. It allowed me to get the professors I wanted.

On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids
are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I can say
with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of thousands more are
grossly overpaid.



Switch to Chrome

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those
communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school
efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have
exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I
can say with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of
thousands more are grossly overpaid.



Switch to Chrome

Chrome? You mean the nascent browser produced by Google?

Not a chance. If it were worth beans, Microsoft would have bought it.

And don't think my evaluation is biased just because I own a ****-load of
Microsoft stock.

On 8/13/2011 1:13 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.


And teeching the neu Inglish so that we mite understand hem,

On 8/13/2011 12:57 PM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids
are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I can
say
with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of thousands
more are
grossly overpaid.



Switch to Chrome


Geeez leon.....

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially
the Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the
professors and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course",
adjunct professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was
unheard of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

Very few full professors were teaching when my kids went to university
(Columbia) 15 or more years ago. Even when I went (Holland, almost 50
years ago), only some were. Interestingly, some were giants in their
fields. Now if I could only remember their names ...


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those
communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school
efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have
exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I
can say with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of
thousands more are grossly overpaid.



Switch to Chrome

Chrome? You mean the nascent browser produced by Google?

Not a chance. If it were worth beans, Microsoft would have bought it.

And don't think my evaluation is biased just because I own a ****-load
of Microsoft stock.

I tried Chrome several years ago and discarded it. Now I am a new
convert. And still a liberal grin.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article ,
says...

Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those
communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school
efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have
exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I
can say with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of
thousands more are grossly overpaid.



Switch to Chrome

Chrome? You mean the nascent browser produced by Google?

Not a chance. If it were worth beans, Microsoft would have bought it.

And don't think my evaluation is biased just because I own a ****-load of
Microsoft stock.

Actually Chrome has higher compatibility with the current release of
HTML5 than does Internet Explorer.

Microsoft hasn't bought it because Google isn't trying to sell it, and
Microsoft is not big enough to buy Google.

Give it a shot, you'll be surprised at how good it is. I was. The fact
is that the past few releases of IE have been pretty well hosed.

In article ocal, "J. Clarke" wrote:

Actually Chrome has higher compatibility with the current release of
HTML5 than does Internet Explorer.

Now *there's* a shock -- a MonkeySoft browser not fully complying with
standards?? What is the world coming to, anyway?

Swingman wrote:
On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

Hard to believe (maybe)? Tenured faculty members having benefits
(medical, retirement, others) aren't cheap, by comparison, and hiring
one is a long term commitment. Who are you going to use to teach 20
sections of XXXX-101? It's not like most of the adjunct professors are
unqualified--a great many of them are retired high school teachers and
do an excellent job. People looking for full time teaching positions,
and who have invested a great deal to get there, are "victims" of this
system too.

Is is true that colleges are being run more and more like a business.
Their survival partially depends on doing so, no?


A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Your reasoning makes sense, but an aspect of this that doesn't show is
that the student population and backdrop is different. Ironically, there
is less community at many community colleges I think. Traditional
colleges offer their own culture (just like the military offers a culture).
I think most (all?) traditional students would be well-served by living
on campus if they can afford it--it's a good way for them to develop
good habits. I think a mature person (not a duffus) who knows how to
handle responsibility, is organized, and who knows what they want, is
likely to be successful no matter where they go. The goal is not
necessary to help students to pass classes as it is to convert students
into people who are organized, can work well with others and with
numbers, can communicate and can handle responsibility. We want
graduates who are prepared to learn what they need to know and are
well-equipped to adapt to change. I'm sure there are plenty here who
have found their own routes to acquiring these skills. College offers a
concrete plan and certification, as would an apprenticeship (where are
those).



Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

Don't laugh--classes are already being taught through the Internet. Time
zone differences start to become significant issues!

Bill

Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially
the Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the
professors and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course",
adjunct professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was
unheard of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

Very few full professors were teaching when my kids went to university
(Columbia) 15 or more years ago.

That ship doesn't fly as well as it used to, though there are exceptions.


Even when I went (Holland, almost 50
years ago), only some were. Interestingly, some were giants in their
fields. Now if I could only remember their names ...

In article , says...

Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially
the Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the
professors and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course",
adjunct professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was
unheard of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

Very few full professors were teaching when my kids went to university
(Columbia) 15 or more years ago.

That ship doesn't fly as well as it used to, though there are exceptions.

Interesting if true that undergraduate courses are now taught by adjunct
faculty. Used to be taught by grad students under the supervision of a
faculty member.

Even when I went (Holland, almost 50
years ago), only some were. Interestingly, some were giants in their
fields. Now if I could only remember their names ...

On 8/13/2011 1:19 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those
communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school
efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have
exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...

I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I
can say with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of
thousands more are grossly overpaid.



Switch to Chrome

Chrome? You mean the nascent browser produced by Google?

Not a chance. If it were worth beans, Microsoft would have bought it.

And don't think my evaluation is biased just because I own a ****-load of
Microsoft stock.


You obliviously have not tried it lately and if you think that Microsoft
buys everything that is good, they would have replaced IE many many many
years ago.

On 8/13/2011 10:16 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Is is true that colleges are being run more and more like a business.
Their survival partially depends on doing so, no?


Did you bother to read the referenced article that touches on that very
subject?

Pretty important to further meaningful dialogue, as it was the basis for
discussion.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially
the Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the
professors and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course",
adjunct professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was
unheard of in my day.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

Very few full professors were teaching when my kids went to university
(Columbia) 15 or more years ago.

That ship doesn't fly as well as it used to, though there are exceptions.

Interesting if true that undergraduate courses are now taught by adjunct
faculty. Used to be taught by grad students under the supervision of a
faculty member.

Not all colleges have grad students in every department. Those that do
obviously use them (first).




Even when I went (Holland, almost 50
years ago), only some were. Interestingly, some were giants in their
fields. Now if I could only remember their names ...

Swingman wrote:
On 8/13/2011 10:16 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Is is true that colleges are being run more and more like a business.
Their survival partially depends on doing so, no?


Did you bother to read the referenced article that touches on that very
subject?

Well, honestly, I had not read it. It was not a really a matter of my
being bothered. But I just went back and read it, some parts of it 2 or
3 times.



Pretty important to further meaningful dialogue, as it was the basis for
discussion.

I think, based upon my experience, I can only add one thing (if that):

That you can pretty much count on academic institutions to follow a path
which is consistent with their economic incentives. Contrary to the
opinion of some, there are some pretty smart people at colleges and
universities, even some you might call "angle shooters", who will work
like lawyers to get as big of a piece of the pie as they can. The pie
not only includes governmental support and grants, but also the
potential students (which colleges have some incentive to make as large
of a group as possible).

To me, it feels a bit analogous to government--very difficult to
mismantle and redesign...

Some similar problems: Medical costs, Suit-happy legal system,
union/employer rules, ...

A common thread seems to be the "angle shooters" who are willing to put
their economic self-interest ahead of "ethics". Entities have learned to
use "politics" in place of ethics. This seems to be related to
MARKETING--its not WHO you are, it's WHO THEY THINK YOU ARE that counts,
right? No Wonder ADVERTISING is so popular!!!

Example: If you run BP, just spend a few bucks and video some clean
water for the silver screen...

Bill

Extra Remark: I suspect (fear) that as we are pushed more and more into
a state of information overload, that marketing will only be more
effective as people will feel pressured to rely on sound-bites.

Extra question: Are ethics and religion related? Want to tie in
cable-tv, single-parent families, disrespect for nature and natural
resources,... ?

I think if everyone felt a compulsion to "do the right thing" we
wouldn't be having this discussion. Are people entitled to be lazy? I
don't know. It seems unethical. Someone I know (that you don't) says:
"Laziness needs no explanation" (I think he is an extremely hard worker!)

I said above I could "only add one thing". Sorry if I exaggerated a bit.
If I had to reduce my entire post to one word, it would be "ETHICS".

..

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:13:58 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

It's not new. I taught a senior level CS course and a graduate level MIS
course 30 years ago. At one point I asked the dean if I taught all the
required courses, if I got my masters (I only have a BS). He didn't like the
question.

Sometimes there are people in industry who know more about a subject than you
can find to teach.

Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!

Community colleges are often a good idea.

Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.

Internet classes are already happening. Something like a third of my son's
classes are via the Internet. Why not from New Delhi? That's where all the
instructors came from 40 years ago.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:13:58 -0500, wrote:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

It's not new. I taught a senior level CS course and a graduate level MIS
course 30 years ago. At one point I asked the dean if I taught all the
required courses, if I got my masters (I only have a BS). He didn't like the
question.

Sometimes there are people in industry who know more about a subject than you
can find to teach.

That may be very true, but that doesn't mean it's safe to assign them
total responsibility for a class if they haven't taught before.

What is likely to happen is that the "industrial expert" is likely to
assume too much.

That surely doesn't mean those industrial experts can't be put to good
use. The students love such invited speakers like that.

B.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:47:08 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:13:58 -0500, wrote:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

It's not new. I taught a senior level CS course and a graduate level MIS
course 30 years ago. At one point I asked the dean if I taught all the
required courses, if I got my masters (I only have a BS). He didn't like the
question.

Sometimes there are people in industry who know more about a subject than you
can find to teach.

That may be very true, but that doesn't mean it's safe to assign them
total responsibility for a class if they haven't taught before.

And the choice is, don't teach the class?

What is likely to happen is that the "industrial expert" is likely to
assume too much.

That happens. In fact, I assumed that seniors in CS would have some idea how
to program a computer and even know something about binary arithmetic. I'm
not above learning, however.

That surely doesn't mean those industrial experts can't be put to good
use. The students love such invited speakers like that.

What good is an "invited speaker", when the subject of the entire course is
the adjunct's specialty? You assume education majors know something worth
teaching.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:47:08 -0400, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:13:58 -0500, wrote:

On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
professors!

A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
of in my day.

It's not new. I taught a senior level CS course and a graduate level MIS
course 30 years ago. At one point I asked the dean if I taught all the
required courses, if I got my masters (I only have a BS). He didn't like the
question.

Sometimes there are people in industry who know more about a subject than you
can find to teach.

That may be very true, but that doesn't mean it's safe to assign them
total responsibility for a class if they haven't taught before.

And the choice is, don't teach the class?

It's the department chair's call. Offering a substitute class may be
viewed as more appropriate than the possibility of having to deal with
an angry mob of 20 students (and their parents) with legitimate
complaints. Of course, the chair has to answer to the dean who has to
answer to a vice-president. Offering an alternative class starts to look
more and more attractive.



What is likely to happen is that the "industrial expert" is likely to
assume too much.

That happens. In fact, I assumed that seniors in CS would have some idea how
to program a computer and even know something about binary arithmetic. I'm
not above learning, however.

That surely doesn't mean those industrial experts can't be put to good
use. The students love such invited speakers like that.

What good is an "invited speaker", when the subject of the entire course is
the adjunct's specialty? You assume education majors know something worth
teaching.

Here you are mixing apples and oranges. Invited speakers serve many
useful purposes in teaching. I think education majors come in a wide
variety. You assume they are all useless?