SconnieRoadie wrote:
Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.

But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
not out of line with the reality.

Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
find out.

I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need to
drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle and
people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the threat
and make themselves heard.

Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes them
out to be, eh?

--
www.ewoodshop.com

Swingman wrote in
:

SconnieRoadie wrote:
Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.

But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
not out of line with the reality.

Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
find out.

I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need
to drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle
and people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the
threat and make themselves heard.

Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes
them out to be, eh?

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such a
fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and son-in-law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 10, 9:37*pm, Han wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such a
fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. *My daughter and son-in-law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.


But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

busbus wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37*pm, Han wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such
a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. *My daughter and son-in-
law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

Police don't seem to be hurting:

"The median salary for the state’s 20,525 municipal officers was $90,672
last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.

A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year.
Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median
salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"

That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners) paid
by the taxpayer.

"Any police officer that says they’re not making enough money needs to
re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert
Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures
last year, and the median salary was $121,177.

Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey’s high cost of living,
years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers to
quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have
recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to
pay more toward their health care."

Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more
toward their health care and their pension plans?

Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can
barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.

Police don't seem to be hurting:

"The median salary for the state’s 20,525 municipal officers was
$90,672 last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.

A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year.
Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median
salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"

That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners)
paid by the taxpayer.

"Any police officer that says they’re not making enough money needs to
re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert
Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures
last year, and the median salary was $121,177.

Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey’s high cost of living,
years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers
to quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have
recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to
pay more toward their health care."

Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more
toward their health care and their pension plans?

Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can
barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

Yes, the police here are complaining they earn less than in neighboring
towns. Because of gov christie's budget cuts and their intransigence in
negotiations, some had to be let go. I think 1 "new" position became
available the coming fiscal year. They're good, though, and generally
polite etc. They came extremely fast when I had fallen and broken my
upper arm on July 4 a few years back.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such
a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and son-in-
law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the state
is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources to
fund their pensions.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
:

On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, wrote:

I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in- law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their
remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions)
makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work
pay more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care
insurance costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same
and being told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.

If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the
state is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources
to fund their pensions.

?pollination?? Some would think that a fringe benefit like a pension
from a (quasi)governmental organization should be trustworthy. That is a
rude awakening around here.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. *Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? *It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.


Well, things like pensions "changed" at companies while I was working
there and there was nothing I could do about it.

Health care insurance costs rose for me without notice and there was
nothing I could do about it.

My job was outsourced to a low-cost provider and there was nothing I
could do about.

Sorry, I just don't like hearing the whining.

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
(police/whatever) pension plans. *Now, gov christie says, OK, you
teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
obligations? *It almost seems that the state stealing from the
pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.


Well, things like pensions "changed" at companies while I was working
there and there was nothing I could do about it.

Health care insurance costs rose for me without notice and there was
nothing I could do about it.

My job was outsourced to a low-cost provider and there was nothing I
could do about.

Sorry, I just don't like hearing the whining.

It didn't change that much at my academic employer in New York City. But
then, it always was a "defined contribution" benefit, rather than a
"defined benefit" plan. It was up to me how and where to invest (within
the limits of 403b5.

Health care costs kept and keep on rising for my coworkers and me
(retired) too, including contributions from us, and copays.

I think that whining is in the eye of the beholder. If you had a
contract, did you like it being canceled? My contract was year to year.
Luckily, I worked for 34 years with (hardly) a hiatus, although 1 year
early on I had to take a 30% pay cut. It's possible that I could have
insisted on being paid, but then my performance review could have been
bad at the end wry grin.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.

"busbus" wrote in message
...
On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.


I don't dispute any of what you've said. However, as a retired firefighter,
I know of many who chose the profession solely because of the "security";
security that is now being surrendered because of mismanagement by the
.......managers. The individuals in question usually had skills that would
have paid them more *in the short run* but chose a public service job
because of the proffered security.
I'm in favor of informing future applicants that the so-called security no
longer exists and they are well advised to take care of their own but a deal
is a deal and the "sheeple public" elected the "managers" so the fault
cannot be fairly placed entirely upon the public service workers. IMHO

Max

busbus wrote in
:

On Aug 11, 8:18*am, Han wrote:
"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
just throw out? *Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. *"You" is in quotes
because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
this.


I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.

I did complain that the contracts were written in such a way that they
did get those enormous bonuses. A contract is a contract, unless it is
illegal, or coerced. Your call now ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some
of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in
their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and
pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are still in
force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be based on
collective bargaining.

The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000. Even
in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to subsist on a
piddly $130,000 per year.

Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees in
the summer months.

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

Han wrote:

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some
of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in
their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and
pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are
still in force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be
based on collective bargaining.

The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000.
Even in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to
subsist on a piddly $130,000 per year.

Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees
in the summer months.

I hope my kids are getting closer to that average salary. They started 4
years ago with around 40K. Even combined, that isn't very much
hereabouts.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid