[Announcer's Voice:]
When we left our heroic wooddorker last week, he was about to
discuss assembly of the extension tables and fence. But now, a word
from our sponsors...
[Switch to Pandering Ad Reel]
FireStorm... FireStorm... Whatcha gonna do with that FireStorm...
ad nauseam... Video of Bruce Phillips trying to install a screw
with a drill running counterclockwise. The screw slips, and he
slices his arm on the CMS - affectionately named Radial Arm Saw.
The escaping blood covers the screen which fades to a red logo.
[/END]

OK - it wasn't all that funny. Maybe I need a new straight man.
And a technical proofreader as well. Whadda ya want fa free...

Part One left off at the point where the extension tables and fence
were about to be assembled to the saw. And I know some of you out
there are cringing at the thought of this...

But for you guys that flip to the spec's and then leave the magazine
on the rack, I'll throw out a few measurements for ya...

Factory blade angle setup was pretty close.
90 d blade angle was 90.4
45 d blade angle was 45.4

Looks as though the guy really tried to get it, but his tool was off.
(I hate it when that happens...) Double checked my tool... yep still
there. Checked the geared protractor as well - yep, good to go.
Minor quibble, just an observation.

Blade to Right Miter Slot parallelism was off by .008" over 10".
This will have to be corrected - I prefer this to be spot-on.

Miter Tracks were parallel within .002".
Good enough, and there ain't nothin you can do about it, neither.

Magnetic switch is an NHD brand MS1-09D-R - an OEM version of an off
the shelf switch. It does do current sensing and power fail shut-off.

Power cord has an interesting N 6-15 plug on it that fully shields the
electrical outlet full-circle. Nice touch, although it's imported.

Now I'll comment on some of the accessories.

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench. It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

Handwheels are heavy, give a smooth feel to the mech. I am not
convinced that they are not imported, but it's possible. The curious
thing is, the included 1/8" wrench doesn't fit the allen head
setscrews. The grub screws are 5/32"... or is that 4mm?
They are not the finely machined handwheels that came on the Navy's
latest flying toy, but are cast-iron and dripped in black gloss paint.
The handgrips are bare steel, probably zinc but possibly nickel
plated. They and their axles are press fitted into the wheel. Mine
could have used a wee bit more pressin', as they rattle a touch now
and then, and move axially 3/8" or so. No biggy.

Rear Fence slide leaves .018" clearance between a flat table and the
lower edge of the fence facing. We'll talk about this later...

There were 4 3/8" flatwashers and 2 3/8" lockwashers missing from the
hardware pack for the fence. But I've got a cabinet full of 'em.
(No, I didn't lose them.)

The Blade Guard - what can be said about this pinnacle of engineering
prowess and UL/CSA approval that I didn't cover in an earlier post.
Simply meeting some UL/CSA standard as to the existence of a blade
guard doesn't equate into a useable OR well designed feature. What it
DOES indicate is that MFG's designed some minimal, crappy contraption
that was needed to barely pass spec 20 years ago, and hasn't put one
iota of though into it since. This applies to ALL manufacturers.

Let's take a poll - how many people here like OR use the guard that
with their saw? A show of hands, please... Nuff said.
At least this one came with a longer tab that retains the plastic
guard in the upright position - barely. It'll still fall on your hand
and introduce it to that nice, sharp WWII. Yep, not one iota...

Those darned extensions. I've heard a million stories of grief about
mounting them. It's actually a pretty easy job - to a point. The
manual doesn't show the proper orientation till later on - when you
have to take everything back apart if you get it wrong - but it's
pretty obvious how they go - to me. Wasn't a problem, but I can see
someone, somewhere making that mistake - twice. g

Hold one extension table up, aligned vertically. Hold the bottom with
one hand, the pre-assembled screws and washers in the other. Balance
the top against the side of your head if you have to. Put the screw
into the CENTER hole, and when it's just finger snug, simply rotate
the table to the horizontal position and install the other two.
Balance does the work for you. Don't torque those screws just yet.
The switch bracket is also mounted under the front screw on the left.
Another pan-head bolt holds the switch bracket at the front.

I only mention this because I've heard others tell tales of struggling
on the floor, upside down underneath the saw table while trying to
hold the extension's entire weight and the screws, and align it to the
saw while attempting to install the screws.
Now THAT would be a real PITA. g

So, rinse, repeat. Then wipe the top down with kerosene, rust buster
spray, whatever you've got that isn't too flammable and cuts this
stuff. Don't dribble it into the mech. Prepare for a mess on the
rag, your pants, your shirt....

The wings don't have an entry bevel cut on them like the saw table.
You would think that a cross-model generic design would match all the
tables - including the bevel - especially the top end, but not yet.
So there is a point that hangs over the front edge of the saw table.

So, it's cleaned up and you back up to get a better view of the
results of your labor.

Well, gotta go. Hate to leave you in suspense, but I guess there will
be a Part III after all. And don't forget to buy that Ovaltine.


Greg G.

Greg,

The extensions on my Jet cabinet saw were not beveled either. After shimming
them out they finally were "close enough" and I tightened them down. Then I
took an 8" mill ******* file and extended the bevels on over to the wings
and ended them with a soft curve and then took the sharp edges off all the
way around. I don't recall seeing any manufacturer having a bevel on the
extensions.

I doubt the tops and the extensions are made and ground as a matched set so
if the beveled the edges on the extensions, there's a good possibility that
the bevels would not match anyway - so pick your poison.

Looking forward to Part III and to what Frank has to say.....;-)

Bob S.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

[Announcer's Voice:]
When we left our heroic wooddorker last week, he was about to
discuss assembly of the extension tables and fence. But now, a word
from our sponsors...
[Switch to Pandering Ad Reel]
FireStorm... FireStorm... Whatcha gonna do with that FireStorm...
ad nauseam... Video of Bruce Phillips trying to install a screw
with a drill running counterclockwise. The screw slips, and he
slices his arm on the CMS - affectionately named Radial Arm Saw.
The escaping blood covers the screen which fades to a red logo.
[/END]

OK - it wasn't all that funny. Maybe I need a new straight man.
And a technical proofreader as well. Whadda ya want fa free...

Part One left off at the point where the extension tables and fence
were about to be assembled to the saw. And I know some of you out
there are cringing at the thought of this...

But for you guys that flip to the spec's and then leave the magazine
on the rack, I'll throw out a few measurements for ya...

Factory blade angle setup was pretty close.
90 d blade angle was 90.4
45 d blade angle was 45.4

Looks as though the guy really tried to get it, but his tool was off.
(I hate it when that happens...) Double checked my tool... yep still
there. Checked the geared protractor as well - yep, good to go.
Minor quibble, just an observation.

Blade to Right Miter Slot parallelism was off by .008" over 10".
This will have to be corrected - I prefer this to be spot-on.

Miter Tracks were parallel within .002".
Good enough, and there ain't nothin you can do about it, neither.

Magnetic switch is an NHD brand MS1-09D-R - an OEM version of an off
the shelf switch. It does do current sensing and power fail shut-off.

Power cord has an interesting N 6-15 plug on it that fully shields the
electrical outlet full-circle. Nice touch, although it's imported.

Now I'll comment on some of the accessories.

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench. It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

Handwheels are heavy, give a smooth feel to the mech. I am not
convinced that they are not imported, but it's possible. The curious
thing is, the included 1/8" wrench doesn't fit the allen head
setscrews. The grub screws are 5/32"... or is that 4mm?
They are not the finely machined handwheels that came on the Navy's
latest flying toy, but are cast-iron and dripped in black gloss paint.
The handgrips are bare steel, probably zinc but possibly nickel
plated. They and their axles are press fitted into the wheel. Mine
could have used a wee bit more pressin', as they rattle a touch now
and then, and move axially 3/8" or so. No biggy.

Rear Fence slide leaves .018" clearance between a flat table and the
lower edge of the fence facing. We'll talk about this later...

There were 4 3/8" flatwashers and 2 3/8" lockwashers missing from the
hardware pack for the fence. But I've got a cabinet full of 'em.
(No, I didn't lose them.)

The Blade Guard - what can be said about this pinnacle of engineering
prowess and UL/CSA approval that I didn't cover in an earlier post.
Simply meeting some UL/CSA standard as to the existence of a blade
guard doesn't equate into a useable OR well designed feature. What it
DOES indicate is that MFG's designed some minimal, crappy contraption
that was needed to barely pass spec 20 years ago, and hasn't put one
iota of though into it since. This applies to ALL manufacturers.

Let's take a poll - how many people here like OR use the guard that
with their saw? A show of hands, please... Nuff said.
At least this one came with a longer tab that retains the plastic
guard in the upright position - barely. It'll still fall on your hand
and introduce it to that nice, sharp WWII. Yep, not one iota...

Those darned extensions. I've heard a million stories of grief about
mounting them. It's actually a pretty easy job - to a point. The
manual doesn't show the proper orientation till later on - when you
have to take everything back apart if you get it wrong - but it's
pretty obvious how they go - to me. Wasn't a problem, but I can see
someone, somewhere making that mistake - twice. g

Hold one extension table up, aligned vertically. Hold the bottom with
one hand, the pre-assembled screws and washers in the other. Balance
the top against the side of your head if you have to. Put the screw
into the CENTER hole, and when it's just finger snug, simply rotate
the table to the horizontal position and install the other two.
Balance does the work for you. Don't torque those screws just yet.
The switch bracket is also mounted under the front screw on the left.
Another pan-head bolt holds the switch bracket at the front.

I only mention this because I've heard others tell tales of struggling
on the floor, upside down underneath the saw table while trying to
hold the extension's entire weight and the screws, and align it to the
saw while attempting to install the screws.
Now THAT would be a real PITA. g

So, rinse, repeat. Then wipe the top down with kerosene, rust buster
spray, whatever you've got that isn't too flammable and cuts this
stuff. Don't dribble it into the mech. Prepare for a mess on the
rag, your pants, your shirt....

The wings don't have an entry bevel cut on them like the saw table.
You would think that a cross-model generic design would match all the
tables - including the bevel - especially the top end, but not yet.
So there is a point that hangs over the front edge of the saw table.

So, it's cleaned up and you back up to get a better view of the
results of your labor.

Well, gotta go. Hate to leave you in suspense, but I guess there will
be a Part III after all. And don't forget to buy that Ovaltine.


Greg G.

BobS said:

The extensions on my Jet cabinet saw were not beveled either. After shimming
them out they finally were "close enough" and I tightened them down. Then I
took an 8" mill ******* file and extended the bevels on over to the wings
and ended them with a soft curve and then took the sharp edges off all the
way around. I don't recall seeing any manufacturer having a bevel on the
extensions.

Bob,

I've not noticed any lately. Could have sworn the Powermatic 66 did,
and possibly the General, but I can't say 'cause they disappeared from
display. I seem to recall that they were but the last time I actually
got to see one was weeks ago. Not the General International, though.

Yeah, filing is an option, but since this was a report and not a
fettling FYI, I didn't go into that. Already used the old ******* on
the slug pliers marks and the dings along the mating edges.

I doubt the tops and the extensions are made and ground as a matched set so
if the beveled the edges on the extensions, there's a good possibility that
the bevels would not match anyway - so pick your poison.

No, they're not. I don't think anyone does that, and it's a shame.
And hey, the tops don't match either, so why not go whole hog. g
Surfacing at the same time would at least give you a nice even
surface. What's the use if it's just dead weight?

Looking forward to Part III and to what Frank has to say.....;-)

I'm not sure I'm up for that today. And I think Frank is getting a
little weary as well. It's appalling how much time you can fritter
away.

Apparently everyone else has killfiled me. I can't believe I didn't
get _one_ laugh out of the mosh pit and Nine Inch Nails joke...
Maybe it was too 'replacement hip' for this crowd. :~)
Or perhaps it just wasn't funny. Who knows...
So I take my place as the dreaded evil outcast at this point.
SWMBO should be back soon, so who gives a duck. g

Later, Dude ;-)

Greg G.

Well, gee, while I haven't killfiled you, the thought has crossed my
mind that you're being a bit anal retentive about a whole lot of
things; for example, I mean, gee, nobody I know expects the factory set
hard stop on the 45 degree setting to be dead accurate from the word
go, and even someone does, they should get over it. I've owned 3
different saws, 2 of them new (the most recent one is a unisaur and is
the last one in my lifetime) and I reset all of them "just because." I
know its exciting to get a new piece of machinery, and I know how it
feels to put one together and crank it up for the first cut and all,
and no doubt you had your trials with the first saw, but I'm tempted to
call the ASPCA as I sense a dead horse is being beaten. That's meant
as a joke, Greg :-).

In all seriousness, good luck with your new saw and work safe. Mutt

Pig wrote:
Well, gee, while I haven't killfiled you, the thought has crossed my
mind that you're being a bit anal retentive about a whole lot of
things; for example, I mean, gee, nobody I know expects the factory set
hard stop on the 45 degree setting to be dead accurate from the word
go, and even someone does, they should get over it.

Imagine applying those same standards to cars...

Your new car comes with the doors and wheels in separate packages.
You're expected to align your front end, adjust toe-in and camber,
adjust the brake calipers, balance your tires, and install the wheels
and doors.

Oh, and you have to undercoat it yourself, and a few of the lug nuts
were missing.

Chris

Gee, must have hit a nerve. Ok, cars and nuclear reactors are the
exception. But in all seriousness, and in a practical sense, the
majority of stationary woodworking tools need some sort of adjustment
when new, regularly fall out of adjustment with use and require some
periodic TLC to perform well. Otherwise, FWW, Wood, Woodworkers
Journal and the other mags out there would not waste time writing "Band
Saw (Tablesaw, Jointer, Planer, RAS) Tune-Up" articles. Without
exception I've reset, or "tuned-up" every new machine I've purchased,
including a unisaw, DJ-20, 15" planer, RAS and bandsaw. I also make it
a practice to check all screws and bolts for tightness, both when new
and from time to time. IMHO not to do so is asking for trouble; it
also has the side benefit of allowing you to become familiar with your
machines and how they are put together.

Mutt

Chris Friesen wrote:

Imagine applying those same standards to cars...

Your new car comes with the doors and wheels in separate packages.
You're expected to align your front end, adjust toe-in and camber,
adjust the brake calipers, balance your tires, and install the wheels
and doors.

Oh, and you have to undercoat it yourself, and a few of the lug nuts
were missing.

Chris

Some comments:

Once upon a time, there were tool dealers who actually delivered and set
up the stationary tools they sold. This is still done on some
production equipment and is still available for commercial customers.
The bigger and more expensive it is, the more likely this can happen.
Mail order and intense price competition killed on-site service for
typical home and small shop woodworking machines.

Dealers still prep cars for the retail purchaser. My employer buys
unprepped vehicles from GM and Ford. Te company gets to keep the
dealer's profit in exchange for the fleet mechanics prepping the
vehicles for service. Tool Crib and Grizzly are not coming to your
house to assemble a tool. G

An assembled stationary woodworking tool would never survive the trip
via typical common carrier. Would you be willing to pay $500-600, or
possibly more, in shipping to have the assembled and adjusted tool
carefully delivered by a moving company?

Barry

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:18:37 -0500, Greg wrote:


[Announcer's Voice:]
When we left our heroic wooddorker last week, he was about to
discuss assembly of the extension tables and fence. But now, a word
from our sponsors...
[Switch to Pandering Ad Reel]
FireStorm... FireStorm... Whatcha gonna do with that FireStorm...
ad nauseam... Video of Bruce Phillips trying to install a screw
with a drill running counterclockwise. The screw slips, and he
slices his arm on the CMS - affectionately named Radial Arm Saw.
The escaping blood covers the screen which fades to a red logo.
[/END]

OK - it wasn't all that funny. Maybe I need a new straight man.
And a technical proofreader as well. Whadda ya want fa free...

Part One left off at the point where the extension tables and fence
were about to be assembled to the saw. And I know some of you out
there are cringing at the thought of this...

But for you guys that flip to the spec's and then leave the magazine
on the rack, I'll throw out a few measurements for ya...

Factory blade angle setup was pretty close.
90 d blade angle was 90.4
45 d blade angle was 45.4

Looks as though the guy really tried to get it, but his tool was off.
(I hate it when that happens...) Double checked my tool... yep still
there. Checked the geared protractor as well - yep, good to go.
Minor quibble, just an observation.

Blade to Right Miter Slot parallelism was off by .008" over 10".
This will have to be corrected - I prefer this to be spot-on.

Yes you should. you do so by moving the table. Be careful not to lose
the dimension when correcting the alignment. afterward go to 45, full
elevation and verify your clearance. And I'm assuming you have the
motor weight hanging when you checked and no longer have it supported.
If not get that weight on when you adjust and check.

Miter Tracks were parallel within .002".
Good enough, and there ain't nothin you can do about it, neither.

Magnetic switch is an NHD brand MS1-09D-R - an OEM version of an off
the shelf switch. It does do current sensing and power fail shut-off.

Power cord has an interesting N 6-15 plug on it that fully shields the
electrical outlet full-circle. Nice touch, although it's imported.

Now I'll comment on some of the accessories.

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench. It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

Laser cut, hardened. not cheap,functional, work fine. bend is to give
passing clearance between the two wrenches in the event you slip
release. the arbor nut wrench will not bang the knuckles of the hand
holding the of the arbor shaft wrench and vice,versa. also gives the
heel of the hand holding the arbor shaft wrench some clearance from
the blade, a good thing. They are specific purpose so you will not be
inclined to put them in your tool box and not have them close by when
you need them.

Get one of the outboard flange nut combination accessories. They are
delightful.

Handwheels are heavy, give a smooth feel to the mech. I am not
convinced that they are not imported, but it's possible. The curious
thing is, the included 1/8" wrench doesn't fit the allen head
setscrews. The grub screws are 5/32"... or is that 4mm?

Probably not supplied, can't remember. Smaller allen wrench might be
to fine tune your insert. it is not 4mm and based on your manufacture
date, probably domestic.
They are not the finely machined handwheels that came on the Navy's
latest flying toy, but are cast-iron and dripped in black gloss paint.
The handgrips are bare steel, probably zinc but possibly nickel
plated. They and their axles are press fitted into the wheel. Mine
could have used a wee bit more pressin', as they rattle a touch now
and then, and move axially 3/8" or so. No biggy.

Hard to find the perfect place. should have an o ring to minimize
rattle. They are, however machined steel that has been plated. you
can press them in further if it is desireable.

Rear Fence slide leaves .018" clearance between a flat table and the
lower edge of the fence facing. We'll talk about this later...

There were 4 3/8" flatwashers and 2 3/8" lockwashers missing from the
hardware pack for the fence. But I've got a cabinet full of 'em.
(No, I didn't lose them.)

The Blade Guard - what can be said about this pinnacle of engineering
prowess and UL/CSA approval that I didn't cover in an earlier post.
Simply meeting some UL/CSA standard as to the existence of a blade
guard doesn't equate into a useable OR well designed feature.

agreed

What it
DOES indicate is that MFG's designed some minimal, crappy contraption
that was needed to barely pass spec 20 years ago, and hasn't put one
iota of though into it since. This applies to ALL manufacturers.

No it doesn't. It indicates that it hasnt been changed not how much
thought had been put into it. it was looked at regularly by at least
one manufacture. Look, the dilemma is that if you are UL/CSA listed
and you compete against those who are not you stay within their
guidlines and offer what is required. You don't add a bunch of cost
over and above your competiitors and price yourself out of the market
still hampered by UL/CSA rules. and possibly still have the user pitch
it into the corner.

I can't speak about what "thought" all manufactures have put into it
and neither can you, just the output.

Very good after market guards are not hampered by the rules because
they are not sold with the saw. If they were they would not be
approved.



Let's take a poll - how many people here like OR use the guard that
with their saw? A show of hands, please... Nuff said.
At least this one came with a longer tab that retains the plastic
guard in the upright position - barely. It'll still fall on your hand
and introduce it to that nice, sharp WWII. Yep, not one iota...

Those darned extensions. I've heard a million stories of grief about
mounting them. It's actually a pretty easy job - to a point. The
manual doesn't show the proper orientation till later on - when you
have to take everything back apart if you get it wrong - but it's
pretty obvious how they go - to me. Wasn't a problem, but I can see
someone, somewhere making that mistake - twice. g

Hold one extension table up, aligned vertically. Hold the bottom with
one hand, the pre-assembled screws and washers in the other. Balance
the top against the side of your head if you have to. Put the screw
into the CENTER hole, and when it's just finger snug, simply rotate
the table to the horizontal position and install the other two.
Balance does the work for you. Don't torque those screws just yet.
The switch bracket is also mounted under the front screw on the left.
Another pan-head bolt holds the switch bracket at the front.

I only mention this because I've heard others tell tales of struggling
on the floor, upside down underneath the saw table while trying to
hold the extension's entire weight and the screws, and align it to the
saw while attempting to install the screws.
Now THAT would be a real PITA. g

So, rinse, repeat. Then wipe the top down with kerosene, rust buster
spray, whatever you've got that isn't too flammable and cuts this
stuff. Don't dribble it into the mech. Prepare for a mess on the
rag, your pants, your shirt....

The wings don't have an entry bevel cut on them like the saw table.
You would think that a cross-model generic design would match all the
tables - including the bevel - especially the top end, but not yet.
So there is a point that hangs over the front edge of the saw table.

Tables are beveled before they are ground. have a variable chamfer
length on the front end because the tables are not ground to a set
block but to clean up leaving as much material as possible. Matching
would be impossible without assembling specific wings to a table and
post beveling. extremely costly. and for what purpose. the purpose
of the entry bevel is for the miter gage entry. the miter gage does
not span to the wing. what I reccommend if asked is to file down the
point on the front wing/ table intersection once installed. keep from
gouging soft stock.

So, it's cleaned up and you back up to get a better view of the
results of your labor.

Well, gotta go. Hate to leave you in suspense, but I guess there will
be a Part III after all. And don't forget to buy that Ovaltine.


Greg G.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:18:37 -0500, Greg wrote:

Great, but there are two things:

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench. It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

As my good friend, Dave Arbuckle (several WW forums) says, they're not
wrenches--they're patterns. You take it with you to your Snap-On
dealer, or equivalent, and buy a real wrench of that size (I like
combination wrenches).

So, rinse, repeat. Then wipe the top down with kerosene, rust buster
spray, whatever you've got that isn't too flammable and cuts this
stuff. Don't dribble it into the mech. Prepare for a mess on the
rag, your pants, your shirt....

Nobody ever mentions this, although maybe I'm the only stupid person
in the world to have done it, but as you're wiping all the kero (the
ONLY solvent to use on cosmolene, in my opinion) off the table and
from the miter track, be SURE and either use SEVERAL layers of cloth
material, or a push stick and a single layer to clean out the track.
They didn't bevel those edges. My finger still hurts 14 months later.



--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Pig said:

Well, gee, while I haven't killfiled you, the thought has crossed my
mind that you're being a bit anal retentive about a whole lot of
things; for example, I mean, gee, nobody I know expects the factory set
hard stop on the 45 degree setting to be dead accurate from the word
go, and even someone does, they should get over it.

Never claimed to be *upset* that the stop was .4d off.
Pretend my name isn't associated, pretend this is your latest copy of
WoodButchers Magazine. Heck, I even made a joke about it.
------------------------
Looks as though the guy really tried to get it, but his tool was off.
(I hate it when that happens...) Double checked my tool... yep still
there. Checked the geared protractor as well - yep, good to go.
Minor quibble, just an observation.
------------------------

Check that last sentence again. Pretend you can read. g
Now I know why Samuel Clemens wrote under a nom de plume. sigh

It's one saw - pulled at random and reported on.
If I were whining, I would go to the dealer about it, not here.
I *expect* to have to adjust these things to my liking.
Shipping alone is enough to throw things out of whack.

* * *
If Shiraz Balolia wants to submit a 1023SL for review, go for it! g
* * *

Simply because I point something out doesn't mean I'm peeved about it.
The blade angle is as close or closer as any other saw I've seen out
of the box, and it really doesn't matter to me anyway 'cause I'll just
tear it all down and blueprint the thing anyway. I need and want
precision. I intend to try lutherie and ... oh, never mind... g

Many people have never seen one of these things, they don't have a
local dealer. Delta's web site isn't helpful - one basic stock photo
and a PDF of the instruction booklet. Not of much use when trying to
determine the relative quality of one item over the other.
I'm endeavoring to be fair and balanced.
Oh, how I hate that expression.

Magazines? Well, they're as big a prostitute as ever. Conflict of
interest - and a 10 minute gloss-over. And after the backpedaling and
gross degree of selective blindness I've seen - they hold very little
credibility in my mind.

So, I'm tearing it down. Every last F'in piece and telling you what
I've found. Random saw - random customer - with a bunch of Starretts.
And waning amounts of free time.

Can't deal with it? Don't read it.
Vendor doesn't like it? Shoulda made sure it was the way you
wanted to represent yourself before shipping it.

Not trying to bust your bearings, just FYI. Attempts to elicit a
laugh at your expense are nothing personal. BG
Just making my position and motivation clear(er).

Later,

Greg G.

LRod said:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:18:37 -0500, Greg wrote:

Great, but there are two things:

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench. It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

As my good friend, Dave Arbuckle (several WW forums) says, they're not
wrenches--they're patterns. You take it with you to your Snap-On
dealer, or equivalent, and buy a real wrench of that size (I like
combination wrenches).

Come 'on, Rod. Good point, but you don't REALLY believe that I don't
already have what is needed, do you? BG

Again, I'm pointing this out for those who may not know what to expect
when unboxing a tool for the first time, as I hope you are as well.

And the bend in the shank. It interferes with the proper fit of the
tool, and regardless of what some may claim, is a real PITA.
Loose the bend, make it less severe, put it higher on the shaft.
As is, the one I got doesn't fit right.

So, rinse, repeat. Then wipe the top down with kerosene, rust buster
spray, whatever you've got that isn't too flammable and cuts this
stuff. Don't dribble it into the mech. Prepare for a mess on the
rag, your pants, your shirt....

Nobody ever mentions this, although maybe I'm the only stupid person
in the world to have done it, but as you're wiping all the kero (the
ONLY solvent to use on cosmolene, in my opinion) off the table and
from the miter track, be SURE and either use SEVERAL layers of cloth
material, or a push stick and a single layer to clean out the track.
They didn't bevel those edges. My finger still hurts 14 months later.

I pointed this out in an earlier post, and yeah, they are sharp.

Fortunately, I learned from the stupidity of youth to watch for this
kind of stuff. (I was a mechanic in a German Perfectionist's shop
where we did our own machine work, fabricated parts, etc.)

Other than nailing my hand to a twobafour with a air powered nail gun
and ending up with a pie shaped chunk of 8" grinding wheel imbedded 4"
into my forehead, I've not had an accident in years. BFG



Greg G.

*** ADDENDUM ***

My straight man points out that the wrenches are not as described.
The humor wasn't well received either. So here are my corrections:

Missing Spec's:
Arbor Shaft Diameter is .624"- looks to be roll-thread/machined shaft.
My Dado will LOVE this.

Splitter Thickness is .074".
Supplied Blade Kerf is .126"

Missing Accessories Info:

Arbor Blade Clamping Washer is die cut and stamp formed steel.
I'm shocked... g

Blade accompanying this saw is clearly stamped Delta-Made in U.S.A.
Looks just like a 50ATB skip tooth with raker made by Vermont America.

Unfortunately, the installer left the blade protruding above the table
surface slightly, and the 300+ mile ride from TN,TX, MS or wherever
caused one carbide tooth to sliver, and one extension wing to have an
eroded pit in it's surface. (The tables are shipped on top of saw,
face down.) I feel Delta should replace this.

No, I'm not going to run it because the fractured carbide could come
flying outta there - it's compromised. Bummer.
(And No, I haven't called, I foresee no hassles in getting it
replaced, etc. It's just FYI.)

Additional Corrections:

Greg G. said:

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench. It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

Replace Paragraph:

Blade Wrenches. Stuff. Lovingly crafted from flat steel stock by the
finest of Chen artisans. The arbor nut wrench is water-jet or laser
cut (although I've never personally seen a laser slice up 1/8" steel).
The arbor shaft wrench still appears to be die cut - down to the grain
smear from the pattern/die.
So it's 50/50.

I beat on them _and_ a soft steel wrench with a hammer and punch.
Not purely scientific, but they do appear to be somewhat hardened.
Not as glassy, hard, or brittle as a case-hardened bit, however.
Home team - 0

One thing I can't quite figure out is why they bothered to put a bend
in the arbor wrench. It really makes it less than useful, as the
easiest approach for me is from directly above. And unless the arbor
is nearly fully-raised, something I never do just to change the blade,
it wedges between the table top and arbor bearing hub and becomes
rather impotent.

If your going to bend one, bend the one that does the turning - ever
so slghtly. My stationary hand holding the arbor isn't as likely to
be cut by the blade as the one actually removing the arbor nut.

Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, could be they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ annoying wrenches and drivers.

No wait, can't do that. Supplied arbor wrench is consistently .125"
in thickness. Clearance for the arbor shaft wrench allows nothing
much thicker than .128 to be inserted. So, I guess I'll use it until
I grind down something else.

Both supplied wrenches DO conform to the (Delta) standard of being
different tapers, so you can tell which wrench is which without
looking at them. Especially useful for you non-sighted woodworkers.

Handwheels are heavy, give a smooth feel to the mech. I am not
convinced that they are not imported, but it's possible. The curious
thing is, the included 1/8" wrench doesn't fit the allen head
setscrews. The grub screws are 5/32"... or is that 4mm?
They are not the finely machined handwheels that came on the Navy's
latest flying toy, but are cast-iron and dripped in black gloss paint.
The handgrips are bare steel, probably zinc but possibly nickel
plated. They and their axles are press fitted into the wheel. Mine
could have used a wee bit more pressin', as they rattle a touch now
and then, and move axially 3/8" or so. No biggy.

Change Relevant Text:

.... yadda... yadda...
They look just like the Chinese cast-iron blanks I bought last year,
right down to the funny bosses. They were probably drilled and bored
in the U.S., and they do have USS threads for the grub screw.

A 5/32" hex allen wrench fits the grub screws, but 4mm fits perfectly
as well. Neither of the 2 allen wrenches which are included fit the
wheel setscrews, so have one on hand before beginning assembly.
.... yadda... yadda...
Mine could have used a wee bit more pressin', so after I get a little
more road time into this thing, I'll throw 'em on the 20 ton hydraulic
press parked over in the corner and snug 'em up. Haven't had much use
for that old press lately - maybe it'll get SWMBO off my case about
selling it.

There is an O-Ring around the base of the axle shaft, presumably to
help prevent rattling. I would keep a drop of oil or silicon lube in
there to prevent tearing of the rubber/viton, as they are not
replaceable without a press of some kind.

The Blade Guard - what can be said about this pinnacle of engineering
prowess and UL/CSA approval that I didn't cover in an earlier post.
Simply meeting some UL/CSA standard as to the existence of a blade
guard doesn't equate into a useable OR well designed feature. What it
DOES indicate is that MFG's designed some minimal, crappy contraption
that was needed to barely pass spec 20 years ago, and hasn't put one
iota of though into it since. This applies to ALL manufacturers.

Change Relevant Text:

.... yadda... yadda...
hasn't put one iota of serious thought into it since. Or perhaps what
thought was dedicated towards the improvement of the guards was shot
down by CEO's and bean counters as being trivial to their position in
the marketplace. This applies to ALL manufacturers who sell in the
U.S., except Powermatic. Additionally, most European machines contain
riving blades that move with the saw blade and provide a much safer
alternative which leaves no gap betwixt the blade and riving knife.

Additionally, the exact thickness of the splitter is .074", and yet
the kerf of a standard blade, say my WWII is .125". Included blade
leaves a kerf of .126". Hmmmm....
(I plan to build a sort of quick release splitter, tapering to .120"
thick, so it's not that relevant to me, anyhow.)

The wings don't have an entry bevel cut on them like the saw table.
You would think that a cross-model generic design would match all the
tables - including the bevel - especially the top end, but not yet.
So there is a point that hangs over the front edge of the saw table.

Change Relevant Text:

Manufacturers can't come up with a way to avoid leaving a jagged point
at the edge of their extension tables, and require you to file this
down after final assembly. But since it's not mentioned in the
manual, you'll have to discover this on your own after you lacerate
your arm, leave a big groove down that sheet of bookmatched plywood,
or have the experience to know better.


Part III at a theater near you - just in time for Christmas Season.



Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:18:37 -0500, Greg wrote:

Blade to Right Miter Slot parallelism was off by .008" over 10".
This will have to be corrected - I prefer this to be spot-on.

Yes you should. you do so by moving the table. Be careful not to lose
the dimension when correcting the alignment. afterward go to 45, full
elevation and verify your clearance. And I'm assuming you have the
motor weight hanging when you checked and no longer have it supported.
If not get that weight on when you adjust and check.

Yes, dear. g Good point for others to note.
The motor is attached and fully weighted. Wouldn't do much good to
set it if weren't - the additional ~60lbs would surely muck things up.
I'm aware of this, having set up saws before - Old, Decrepit Saws.

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,

Laser cut, hardened. not cheap,functional, work fine. bend is to give
passing clearance between the two wrenches in the event you slip
release. the arbor nut wrench will not bang the knuckles of the hand
holding the of the arbor shaft wrench and vice,versa. also gives the
heel of the hand holding the arbor shaft wrench some clearance from
the blade, a good thing. They are specific purpose so you will not be
inclined to put them in your tool box and not have them close by when
you need them.

See addendum.

I understand why they did it, my observation is that it's just not a
very effective implementation. The bend is at a spot where it skews
the fit of the wrench on the arbor shaft due to interference with the
arbor bearing hub, unless the arbor is raised almost fully.
Bend the other one slightly - it moves - this one doesn't. JMHO.

Get one of the outboard flange nut combination accessories. They are
delightful.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Who makes such a thing?
I do already have thin open-end Snap-On wrenches that I don't use much
for wrenching on vehicles anymore. At least with the left-tilt, I'm
not constantly fighting against my burned-in perception of which way
the nut tightens. g

Handwheels are heavy, give a smooth feel to the mech. I am not
convinced that they are not imported, but it's possible. The curious
thing is, the included 1/8" wrench doesn't fit the allen head
setscrews. The grub screws are 5/32"... or is that 4mm?

Probably not supplied, can't remember. Smaller allen wrench might be
to fine tune your insert. it is not 4mm and based on your manufacture
date, probably domestic.

What I meant is that a 4mm key fits - perfectly.
See addendum.

could have used a wee bit more pressin', as they rattle a touch now
and then, and move axially 3/8" or so. No biggy.

Hard to find the perfect place. should have an o ring to minimize
rattle. They are, however machined steel that has been plated. you
can press them in further if it is desireable.

O-ring is present. I will press them further eventually. But if it
takes more than 20 tons, I'm out of luck. Minor observation. g

that was needed to barely pass spec 20 years ago, and hasn't put one
iota of though into it since. This applies to ALL manufacturers.

No it doesn't. It indicates that it hasnt been changed not how much
thought had been put into it. it was looked at regularly by at least
one manufacture. Look, the dilemma is that if you are UL/CSA listed
and you compete against those who are not you stay within their
guidlines and offer what is required. You don't add a bunch of cost
over and above your competiitors and price yourself out of the market
still hampered by UL/CSA rules. and possibly still have the user pitch
it into the corner.

I understand - See addendum.

I can't speak about what "thought" all manufactures have put into it
and neither can you, just the output.

Semantics...

Very good after market guards are not hampered by the rules because
they are not sold with the saw. If they were they would not be
approved.

As observed in an earlier of my posts, the UL and/or CSA should
reassess their requirements as well. IMHO.

Later,

Greg G.

Greg G. said:

*** ADDENDUM 2 ***

Change Relevant Text:

the marketplace. This applies to ALL manufacturers who sell in the
U.S., except Powermatic. Additionally, most European machines contain

And before anyone jumps in here and says...

Actually, that would be Powermatic and SawStop - but I've never see a
SawStop in person. And both of these saws are fairly expensive at
$2,200 and $3,200 respectively and similarly equipped.

The new PM2000, although reputedly cast in China, also has a riving
blade as well as a similar guard system to the PM66.

Not personally convinced of the SawStop's ability to deal with field
conditions, and will reserve opinion until I've seen long term
results. Humidity, wet wood, age and wear and tear on the slip-rings
and bearing insulation. The cartridge's ability to hold up over time
and still fire. The ability for a new manufacturer with a big ego to
succeed against almost guaranteed law suits and market pressures.
But if it does save fingers, it's probably cheaper to replace that $70
cartridge and a $100 blade than to pay for extensive hand surgery.
IMHO.

Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message

One thing I can't quite figure out is why they bothered to put a bend
in the arbor wrench. It really makes it less than useful, as the
easiest approach for me is from directly above. And unless the arbor
is nearly fully-raised, something I never do just to change the blade,
it wedges between the table top and arbor bearing hub and becomes
rather impotent.

It works absolutely fine in practice ... never even realized that there was
a problem.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

Swingman said:

"Greg G." wrote in message

One thing I can't quite figure out is why they bothered to put a bend
in the arbor wrench. It really makes it less than useful, as the
easiest approach for me is from directly above. And unless the arbor
is nearly fully-raised, something I never do just to change the blade,
it wedges between the table top and arbor bearing hub and becomes
rather impotent.

It works absolutely fine in practice ... never even realized that there was
a problem.

Hmm...
I know I have mounted three blades so far, and that if the blade is
lower than ~1/2" from the highest height setting, it's sort of
useless. Maybe mine is slightly different.

Do you raise your arbor to max when swapping blades? Left-Tilt?

Perhaps it's just that I've got average? | skinny? arms, and have
never had to raise the blade. This throat is much larger than the old
saw, so it feels like a cavern in there, and jacking up the blade just
seems like unnecessary motion.

My suggestion about bending the other wrench instead still seems
relevant, however, which hand do YOU want swinging around those
carbide tips?

Maybe it's because I'm left-handed?
I've not had time to think about it in reverse... R is broken.

Minor quibble/observation anyway... I have a large hammer... g
(And a vise.)

Yeah, I was trying to be funny, but come off like an ass*. :-\


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...


My suggestion about bending the other wrench instead still seems
relevant, however, which hand do YOU want swinging around those
carbide tips?


Hey Greg - I've gotten a kick out of some of your comments, and I've simply
appreciated some of the others. In particular, I've found it a little
enjoyable to see one of the sacred cows of this group reviewed and disclosed
to have some warts - especially in light of how much bashing a lot of
"lesser" saws suffer here. But - come on... is it really a big deal to have
to put your hand or arm "near" your blade? We're not talking about razor
sharp here after all...

--

-Mike-

Greg,

Frank makes an excellent recommendation here about the flange/nut combo to
hold the blade on. When I got mine from WoodWorkers Warehouse ($20) it was
in a package with Delta's name on it. When I sold the CS, I kept it since
it fits on my Jet too. Get one, it's one of those things you'll buy and say
"Why in the hell did I wait so long to get this". Makes life easier and one
of Delta's better ideas.

Bob S.


Get one of the outboard flange nut combination accessories. They are
delightful.

Mike Marlow said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .


My suggestion about bending the other wrench instead still seems
relevant, however, which hand do YOU want swinging around those
carbide tips?


Hey Greg - I've gotten a kick out of some of your comments, and I've simply
appreciated some of the others. In particular, I've found it a little
enjoyable to see one of the sacred cows of this group reviewed and disclosed
to have some warts - especially in light of how much bashing a lot of
"lesser" saws suffer here. But - come on... is it really a big deal to have
to put your hand or arm "near" your blade? We're not talking about razor
sharp here after all...

Thanks. I'm glad someone else has a warped sense of humor.
And I didn't realize it was a sacred cow - I thought it was a big,
gray cabinet saw. A machine.

Worked with 'em my whole life. Take 'em apart, fix 'em, and put 'em
back together again. Run the **** out of 'em, break 'em, and start
all over again.

And I am not trying to 'bash' the saw over a wrench.
But purely from an engineer's standpoint, when I look at this photo:

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images\UniSaw20.jpg

Logic tells me, bend the one on the right.
The stationary hand holds the left wrench, while resting on the table,
and the right hand is swinging the arbor nut with the other wrench.

That photo was taken with the blade lowered to 2 1/4". The arbor
wrench (left) is bound on the table top. Won't come off. There is
over 2 3/4" of space on the right side for bends in the wrench - and
that's the one that has the moving knuckles on it.

Granted, if you hold the wrench near the end, you're not even close to
the blade anyway. But...

Now, purely and logically, look at that photo again and tell me their
way makes ANY sense. Yea, it may work, but it's freaking illogical.
That is my only point, not that it can't be worked around, not that
doesn't work. But that it would improve the product (for me, anyway)
if they changed it. And it wasn't that big a deal. Till now. :-\

As for the blade sharpness, my WWII _IS_ about as sharp as a razor.
That's why that old Delta contractor blade is on there for the photo.
It's 5 years old, well worn, and definitely NOT sharp as a razor.
It's been a good all-around blade, however. Just not for fine
woodworking.

Not trying to start anything here - just analyzing a machine.
But I can see this is heading into the same sort of territory as
criticizing the current administration. Very emotionally polarized...

Man, am I glad I can type/run fast... G


Greg G.

Greg G. said:

But purely from an engineer's standpoint, when I look at this photo:

Well, I see from the beeping (and quite annoying) web server alert,
that some of those Google types are having difficulty viewing the
photo because I used a backslash instead of a forward slash in the
photo URL. Sorry. Here is the correct link:

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw20.jpg

Hmmm... Chicago, UK, NYC....


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:
But purely from an engineer's standpoint, when I look at this photo:

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw20.jpg

Logic tells me, bend the one on the right.
The stationary hand holds the left wrench, while resting on the table,
and the right hand is swinging the arbor nut with the other wrench.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. To me it makes sense that
the hand doing the moving (right hand for left tilt) be close to
perpendicular to the arbor axis. Maybe this is just me making an
ill-informed non-ergonomisist (is that a word?) non-mechanical engineer
guess, but I would tend to think one would be less likely to have the arbor
nut wrench slip off that way. With a straight arbor nut wrench, you can pull
it straight toward you or push it straight away from you. Also, I've always
run the blade up to full height whenever changing it. Like I said before,
different strokes for different folks.

-John in NH

BobS said:

Greg,

Frank makes an excellent recommendation here about the flange/nut combo to
hold the blade on. When I got mine from WoodWorkers Warehouse ($20) it was
in a package with Delta's name on it. When I sold the CS, I kept it since
it fits on my Jet too. Get one, it's one of those things you'll buy and say
"Why in the hell did I wait so long to get this". Makes life easier and one
of Delta's better ideas.

Bob S.


Get one of the outboard flange nut combination accessories. They are
delightful.

OK - I get it now. A combined nut and flange. I was actually
surprised that the UniSaw didn't COME with one. I thought the older
saws did, and I know of an old Delta contractor saw that did.
Big, heavy, hardened steel flanged nut. Dollar a dozen at the
aviation surplus yard, but not with those flat threads...

I welded my old nut/flange together years ago. :-)


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message

Hmm...
I know I have mounted three blades so far, and that if the blade is
lower than ~1/2" from the highest height setting, it's sort of
useless. Maybe mine is slightly different.

Do you raise your arbor to max when swapping blades? Left-Tilt?

Just leave it wherever it happens to be at the time ... Left.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

John Girouard said:

Greg G. wrote:
But purely from an engineer's standpoint, when I look at this photo:

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw20.jpg

Logic tells me, bend the one on the right.
The stationary hand holds the left wrench, while resting on the table,
and the right hand is swinging the arbor nut with the other wrench.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. To me it makes sense that
the hand doing the moving (right hand for left tilt) be close to
perpendicular to the arbor axis. Maybe this is just me making an
ill-informed non-ergonomisist (is that a word?) non-mechanical engineer
guess, but I would tend to think one would be less likely to have the arbor
nut wrench slip off that way. With a straight arbor nut wrench, you can pull
it straight toward you or push it straight away from you. Also, I've always
run the blade up to full height whenever changing it. Like I said before,
different strokes for different folks.

John,
You are absolutely right about the on-axis leverage, but if you just
HAD to bend one, which would it be? I'm not promoting bending either,
but Frank suggested that it was to allow for knuckle clearance.

And I also suppose that I am used to automotive combo wrenches, they
also have a slight bend in the head/shank relationship. But they also
have a thicker head that offsets the inclination to slip off the nut.

Personally, I liked the wrenches on the old saw - both were simply
flat steel - never had a problem slamming my knuckles together.
But, alas, they won't fit the new saw - first thing I tried.

But that's progress...


Greg G.

"BobS" writes:

Greg,

Frank makes an excellent recommendation here about the flange/nut combo to
hold the blade on. When I got mine from WoodWorkers Warehouse ($20) it was
in a package with Delta's name on it. When I sold the CS, I kept it since

Why doesn't Delta just include this on a saw that costs well over $1000?

The real cost to Delta could not be more than a buck or two over the
nut/washer they currently supply.

Packaging, warehousing, distribution, and distributor/retailer margin
probably make up the majority of the cost of this accessory.

Brian Elfert

Brian Elfert said:

"BobS" writes:

Greg,

Frank makes an excellent recommendation here about the flange/nut combo to
hold the blade on. When I got mine from WoodWorkers Warehouse ($20) it was
in a package with Delta's name on it. When I sold the CS, I kept it since

Why doesn't Delta just include this on a saw that costs well over $1000?

That's what I wondered as well. I though they DID until I got it home.
That's why my review addendum said, "I'm shocked", in reference to
the nut and washer. But I didn't want to make a big deal about it.
Poor Frank's heart is going to explode...

The real cost to Delta could not be more than a buck or two over the
nut/washer they currently supply.

If that.

Packaging, warehousing, distribution, and distributor/retailer margin
probably make up the majority of the cost of this accessory.

Damned bean counters...


Greg G.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:05:29 -0500, Greg wrote:


*** ADDENDUM ***

My straight man points out that the wrenches are not as described.
The humor wasn't well received either. So here are my corrections:

Good humor is always well received. Inaccurate "facts" demand to be
challenged.

Missing Spec's:
Arbor Shaft Diameter is .624"- looks to be roll-thread/machined shaft.
My Dado will LOVE this.

Splitter Thickness is .074".
Supplied Blade Kerf is .126"

Missing Accessories Info:

Arbor Blade Clamping Washer is die cut and stamp formed steel.
I'm shocked... g

Blade accompanying this saw is clearly stamped Delta-Made in U.S.A.
Looks just like a 50ATB skip tooth with raker made by Vermont America.

Standard blade supplied for that saw is either a 35-617 10x50 ATB & R
made by Leitz in Germany (you remember, the cheap chinese blade by
your observation) or an equivilent tooth configuration blade Oldham
Signature series made near Ashville, N.C. Which would depend on
timing. Both excellent blades based on what matters. However, to give
you the benefit the doubt someone could have substituted a Vermont
American. ( same guy that ground that table?). Substitutions were
sometimes made on benchtop refurb ( something better not worse) but,
in the past, it was never done on Industrial. However, new
management, who knows. Is it labeled V A or are you just guessing?

Unfortunately, the installer left the blade protruding above the table
surface slightly, and the 300+ mile ride from TN,TX, MS or wherever
caused one carbide tooth to sliver, and one extension wing to have an
eroded pit in it's surface. (The tables are shipped on top of saw,
face down.) I feel Delta should replace this.

No, I'm not going to run it because the fractured carbide could come
flying outta there - it's compromised. Bummer.
(And No, I haven't called, I foresee no hassles in getting it
replaced, etc. It's just FYI.)

Additional Corrections:

Greg G. said:

Blade Wrenches. Usual stuff. Cheap steel flat stock wrenches,
probably die cut, and soft. One thing I can't quite figure out is why
they bothered to put a bend in the arbor wrench.



It really makes it
useless, as the cleanest approach is from directly above. Go figure.
Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, _could be_ they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ useless wrenches and drivers.

Replace Paragraph:

Blade Wrenches. Stuff. Lovingly crafted from flat steel stock by the
finest of Chen artisans. The arbor nut wrench is water-jet or laser
cut (although I've never personally seen a laser slice up 1/8" steel).
The arbor shaft wrench still appears to be die cut - down to the grain
smear from the pattern/die.
So it's 50/50.

I beat on them _and_ a soft steel wrench with a hammer and punch.
Not purely scientific, but they do appear to be somewhat hardened.
Not as glassy, hard, or brittle as a case-hardened bit, however.
Home team - 0

One thing I can't quite figure out is why they bothered to put a bend
in the arbor wrench. It really makes it less than useful, as the
easiest approach for me is from directly above. And unless the arbor
is nearly fully-raised, something I never do just to change the blade,
it wedges between the table top and arbor bearing hub and becomes
rather impotent.


Hmm, when I told you why they did it in an earlier post you then
responded by saying you knew why they did it. Wonder which statement
is true. Works fine for me.




If your going to bend one, bend the one that does the turning - ever
so slghtly. My stationary hand holding the arbor isn't as likely to
be cut by the blade as the one actually removing the arbor nut.

Could be something different about the left-tilt vs. right-tilt model,
could be because I'm a southpaw, could be they bought a box of them
on eBay. I'll hammer it out flat later - or add it to the collection
of _other_ annoying wrenches and drivers.

No wait, can't do that. Supplied arbor wrench is consistently .125"
in thickness. Clearance for the arbor shaft wrench allows nothing
much thicker than .128 to be inserted. So, I guess I'll use it until
I grind down something else.

Both supplied wrenches DO conform to the (Delta) standard of being
different tapers, so you can tell which wrench is which without
looking at them. Especially useful for you non-sighted woodworkers.

Handwheels are heavy, give a smooth feel to the mech. I am not
convinced that they are not imported, but it's possible. The curious
thing is, the included 1/8" wrench doesn't fit the allen head
setscrews. The grub screws are 5/32"... or is that 4mm?
They are not the finely machined handwheels that came on the Navy's
latest flying toy, but are cast-iron and dripped in black gloss paint.
The handgrips are bare steel, probably zinc but possibly nickel
plated. They and their axles are press fitted into the wheel. Mine
could have used a wee bit more pressin', as they rattle a touch now
and then, and move axially 3/8" or so. No biggy.

Change Relevant Text:

... yadda... yadda...
They look just like the Chinese cast-iron blanks I bought last year,
right down to the funny bosses. They were probably drilled and bored
in the U.S., and they do have USS threads for the grub screw.

A 5/32" hex allen wrench fits the grub screws, but 4mm fits perfectly
as well. Neither of the 2 allen wrenches which are included fit the
wheel setscrews, so have one on hand before beginning assembly.
... yadda... yadda...

Manufacturers do not generally supply assembly tools, normally only
tools needed for ongoing adjustment and then only some of the time
depending on how common the tool might be. The supplied wrenches are
for adjusting the insert plane and the miter gage stops if memory
serves.

Mine could have used a wee bit more pressin', so after I get a little
more road time into this thing, I'll throw 'em on the 20 ton hydraulic
press parked over in the corner and snug 'em up. Haven't had much use
for that old press lately - maybe it'll get SWMBO off my case about
selling it.

There is an O-Ring around the base of the axle shaft, presumably to
help prevent rattling. I would keep a drop of oil or silicon lube in
there to prevent tearing of the rubber/viton, as they are not
replaceable without a press of some kind.

another inaccurate statement of "fact"
I replaced two flood damaged handles last week with a drift and ball
peen hammer.

The Blade Guard - what can be said about this pinnacle of engineering
prowess and UL/CSA approval that I didn't cover in an earlier post.
Simply meeting some UL/CSA standard as to the existence of a blade
guard doesn't equate into a useable OR well designed feature. What it
DOES indicate is that MFG's designed some minimal, crappy contraption
that was needed to barely pass spec 20 years ago, and hasn't put one
iota of though into it since. This applies to ALL manufacturers.

Change Relevant Text:

... yadda... yadda...
hasn't put one iota of serious thought into it since. Or perhaps what
thought was dedicated towards the improvement of the guards was shot
down by CEO's and bean counters as being trivial to their position in
the marketplace. This applies to ALL manufacturers who sell in the
U.S., except Powermatic. Additionally, most European machines contain
riving blades that move with the saw blade and provide a much safer
alternative which leaves no gap betwixt the blade and riving knife.

top part already answered,



Additionally, the exact thickness of the splitter is .074", and yet
the kerf of a standard blade, say my WWII is .125". Included blade
leaves a kerf of .126". Hmmmm....
(I plan to build a sort of quick release splitter, tapering to .120"
thick, so it's not that relevant to me, anyhow.)

Clarification on the statement. Standard splitters need to be designed
for the thinest kerf blade not the thickest. A thinner splitter will
work with a thicker blade but not vice versa.

The wings don't have an entry bevel cut on them like the saw table.
You would think that a cross-model generic design would match all the
tables - including the bevel - especially the top end, but not yet.
So there is a point that hangs over the front edge of the saw table.

Change Relevant Text:

Manufacturers can't come up with a way to avoid leaving a jagged point
at the edge of their extension tables,

Also answered and yes they can. The using public just doesn't want to
pay for it and I wouldn't either.

and require you to file this
down after final assembly. But since it's not mentioned in the
manual, you'll have to discover this on your own after you lacerate
your arm, leave a big groove down that sheet of bookmatched plywood,
or have the experience to know better.


Part III at a theater near you - just in time for Christmas Season.



Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:05:29 -0500, Greg wrote:

Blade accompanying this saw is clearly stamped Delta-Made in U.S.A.
Looks just like a 50ATB skip tooth with raker made by Vermont America.

Standard blade supplied for that saw is either a 35-617 10x50 ATB & R
made by Leitz in Germany (you remember, the cheap chinese blade by ---SAR?
your observation) or an equivilent tooth configuration blade Oldham
Signature series made near Ashville, N.C. Which would depend on
timing. Both excellent blades based on what matters. However, to give
you the benefit the doubt someone could have substituted a Vermont
American. ( same guy that ground that table?). Substitutions were
sometimes made on benchtop refurb ( something better not worse) but,
in the past, it was never done on Industrial. However, new
management, who knows. Is it labeled V A or are you just guessing?

Well, to be honest, it looked like a US Saw/Oldham blade to me as
well, but I was going by what you told me in a previous post:

QUOTE
If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
UNQUOTE

I like the Oldham Signature blades - they are very good.
Unfortunately, no one I've found around here carries them anymore.
And this one is chipped. I hope they replace it with the same one.

One thing I can't quite figure out is why they bothered to put a bend
in the arbor wrench. It really makes it less than useful, as the
easiest approach for me is from directly above. And unless the arbor
is nearly fully-raised, something I never do just to change the blade,
it wedges between the table top and arbor bearing hub and becomes
rather impotent.

Hmm, when I told you why they did it in an earlier post you then
responded by saying you knew why they did it. Wonder which statement
is true. Works fine for me.

I know why they did it - I just can't figure out why they bothered.
Read it sloooowly...
See subsequent discussion and photos.

Manufacturers do not generally supply assembly tools, normally only
tools needed for ongoing adjustment and then only some of the time
depending on how common the tool might be. The supplied wrenches are
for adjusting the insert plane and the miter gage stops if memory
serves.

No biggy - just an observation.

There is an O-Ring around the base of the axle shaft, presumably to
help prevent rattling. I would keep a drop of oil or silicon lube in
there to prevent tearing of the rubber/viton, as they are not
replaceable without a press of some kind.

another inaccurate statement of "fact"
I replaced two flood damaged handles last week with a drift and ball
peen hammer.

Probably explains the motor pivot shaft in the first saw I got. g

I prefer a more eloquent approach, personally. A vise, a press...
A "press of some kind" implies a pressing device such as a vise, a
screw-driven puller, a press, etc.
I don't care for dinged up marks on my hardware - I'm funny like that.
It's a personal thang.

Clarification on the statement. Standard splitters need to be designed
for the thinest kerf blade not the thickest. A thinner splitter will
work with a thicker blade but not vice versa.

Of course, we know thaaat.
But a thin splitter combined with a wide blade is not as effective in
preventing the wood from closing in on the blade.

A hunk of reaction wood could close up on the blade before the
splitter stopped it from doing so - depending somewhat on the distance
between the splitter and the rear of the blade.

Delta includes one .125" blade and one .074" splitter.
Not the most effective combo. I understand they are not going to
include two splitters, and that their solution is to provide one that
sort of works with both. Optimally, the blade and splitter should be
pretty close to the same thickness.

Manufacturers can't come up with a way to avoid leaving a jagged point
at the edge of their extension tables,

Also answered and yes they can. The using public just doesn't want to
pay for it and I wouldn't either.

I understand that, but as I subsequently stated:

But since it's not mentioned in the
manual, you'll have to discover this on your own after you lacerate
your arm, leave a big groove down that sheet of bookmatched plywood,
or have the experience to know better.

Some new, novice purchasers won't know until it happens to them.
Unless You come in the box with the saw or put it in the manual.

Besides, I'm more worried about the .032" variations in the table than
I am trivial stuff like this.

Dude, you need a vacation...
Don't get so excited about it - it's just a saw. ;-)
And it's just a discussion... G



Greg G.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:11:19 -0500, Greg wrote:

BobS said:

Greg,

Frank makes an excellent recommendation here about the flange/nut combo to
hold the blade on. When I got mine from WoodWorkers Warehouse ($20) it was
in a package with Delta's name on it. When I sold the CS, I kept it since
it fits on my Jet too. Get one, it's one of those things you'll buy and say
"Why in the hell did I wait so long to get this". Makes life easier and one
of Delta's better ideas.

Bob S.


Get one of the outboard flange nut combination accessories. They are
delightful.

OK - I get it now. A combined nut and flange. I was actually
surprised that the UniSaw didn't COME with one. I thought the older
saws did, and I know of an old Delta contractor saw that did.
Big, heavy, hardened steel flanged nut. Dollar a dozen at the
aviation surplus yard, but not with those flat threads...

No Greg, once again. Nut and flange are independent. Nut turns
independently of flange. imparts minimal torsion, appropriate
compression, the way blades were meant to be installed..

I welded my old nut/flange together years ago. :-)

Hope you're kidding, bad thing to do.


Greg G.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:41:09 -0500, Greg wrote:

Frank Boettcher said:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:05:29 -0500, Greg wrote:

Blade accompanying this saw is clearly stamped Delta-Made in U.S.A.
Looks just like a 50ATB skip tooth with raker made by Vermont America.

Standard blade supplied for that saw is either a 35-617 10x50 ATB & R
made by Leitz in Germany (you remember, the cheap chinese blade by ---SAR?
your observation) or an equivilent tooth configuration blade Oldham
Signature series made near Ashville, N.C. Which would depend on
timing. Both excellent blades based on what matters. However, to give
you the benefit the doubt someone could have substituted a Vermont
American. ( same guy that ground that table?). Substitutions were
sometimes made on benchtop refurb ( something better not worse) but,
in the past, it was never done on Industrial. However, new
management, who knows. Is it labeled V A or are you just guessing?

Well, to be honest, it looked like a US Saw/Oldham blade to me as
well, but I was going by what you told me in a previous post:

QUOTE
If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
UNQUOTE

also, in addition to. did that oldham look like a stamped steel blade
to you?



Balance your just crawfishing.

I like the Oldham Signature blades - they are very good.
Unfortunately, no one I've found around here carries them anymore.
And this one is chipped. I hope they replace it with the same one.

One thing I can't quite figure out is why they bothered to put a bend
in the arbor wrench. It really makes it less than useful, as the
easiest approach for me is from directly above. And unless the arbor
is nearly fully-raised, something I never do just to change the blade,
it wedges between the table top and arbor bearing hub and becomes
rather impotent.

Hmm, when I told you why they did it in an earlier post you then
responded by saying you knew why they did it. Wonder which statement
is true. Works fine for me.

I know why they did it - I just can't figure out why they bothered.
Read it sloooowly...
See subsequent discussion and photos.

Manufacturers do not generally supply assembly tools, normally only
tools needed for ongoing adjustment and then only some of the time
depending on how common the tool might be. The supplied wrenches are
for adjusting the insert plane and the miter gage stops if memory
serves.

No biggy - just an observation.

There is an O-Ring around the base of the axle shaft, presumably to
help prevent rattling. I would keep a drop of oil or silicon lube in
there to prevent tearing of the rubber/viton, as they are not
replaceable without a press of some kind.

another inaccurate statement of "fact"
I replaced two flood damaged handles last week with a drift and ball
peen hammer.

Probably explains the motor pivot shaft in the first saw I got. g

I prefer a more eloquent approach, personally. A vise, a press...
A "press of some kind" implies a pressing device such as a vise, a
screw-driven puller, a press, etc.
I don't care for dinged up marks on my hardware - I'm funny like that.
It's a personal thang.

Clarification on the statement. Standard splitters need to be designed
for the thinest kerf blade not the thickest. A thinner splitter will
work with a thicker blade but not vice versa.

Of course, we know thaaat.
But a thin splitter combined with a wide blade is not as effective in
preventing the wood from closing in on the blade.

A hunk of reaction wood could close up on the blade before the
splitter stopped it from doing so - depending somewhat on the distance
between the splitter and the rear of the blade.

Delta includes one .125" blade and one .074" splitter.
Not the most effective combo. I understand they are not going to
include two splitters, and that their solution is to provide one that
sort of works with both. Optimally, the blade and splitter should be
pretty close to the same thickness.

Manufacturers can't come up with a way to avoid leaving a jagged point
at the edge of their extension tables,

Also answered and yes they can. The using public just doesn't want to
pay for it and I wouldn't either.

I understand that, but as I subsequently stated:

But since it's not mentioned in the
manual, you'll have to discover this on your own after you lacerate
your arm, leave a big groove down that sheet of bookmatched plywood,
or have the experience to know better.

Some new, novice purchasers won't know until it happens to them.
Unless You come in the box with the saw or put it in the manual.

Besides, I'm more worried about the .032" variations in the table than
I am trivial stuff like this.

Dude, you need a vacation...
Don't get so excited about it - it's just a saw. ;-)
And it's just a discussion... G


not excited, just correcting a laundry list of opinion,
misconceptions, and inaccurate information with the truth.


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:11:19 -0500, Greg wrote:

OK - I get it now. A combined nut and flange. I was actually
surprised that the UniSaw didn't COME with one. I thought the older
saws did, and I know of an old Delta contractor saw that did.
Big, heavy, hardened steel flanged nut. Dollar a dozen at the
aviation surplus yard, but not with those flat threads...

No Greg, once again. Nut and flange are independent. Nut turns
independently of flange. imparts minimal torsion, appropriate
compression, the way blades were meant to be installed..

No Frank, once again - questionable attitude.
Like the way people are 'meant' to converse.
But I'm glad you're paying attention. g

As for me, bad choice of words - captive is what I should have said.
Combined was vague, at best, but does not wholly imply one piece.
The surplus yard is for old aviation crap. They DO use those on
_other_ machines - just not with the flat threads. Mazda uses them on
rotary engine flywheels as a 'gland nut', for instance. One big-ass
hardened nut with a captive flange. Torques to 260 ft/lbs.

I welded my old nut/flange together years ago. :-)

Hope you're kidding, bad thing to do.

See the smiley? It's a Joke, Dude. g


Greg G.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:30:28 -0500, Greg wrote:

Not personally convinced of the SawStop's ability to deal with field
conditions, and will reserve opinion until I've seen long term
results. Humidity, wet wood, age and wear and tear on the slip-rings
and bearing insulation. The cartridge's ability to hold up over time
and still fire. The ability for a new manufacturer with a big ego to
succeed against almost guaranteed law suits and market pressures.
But if it does save fingers, it's probably cheaper to replace that $70
cartridge and a $100 blade than to pay for extensive hand surgery.
IMHO.

That's why I'm saving up for one right now - for my first table saw.

From everything I've studied regarding table saw splitter/riving knife
design and its implementation on varying saws, I wouldn't buy a TS
without an integral riving knife that rides up and down with the
blade. Otherwise it's kind of useless.

It seems that even without its finger saving brake, it is still a
fantastic table saw.

- Matt

Okay, time for me to jump on in here with a question or two and some
comments since the discussion is again about the splitter / guard.

Frank, I doubt you'll remember me but I believe it was you I contacted about
5 years ago. Keith B. gave me your name and phone number at Delta. At any
rate, at the time I had a brand new Delta 34-444Z CS and I modified the
splitter / blade guard so that the guard would stay in the up position while
the blade was being changed. And as you stated (earlier post), it had to
fall back into position on it's own when nudged or contacted by a piece of
stock going thru the blade. Said another way, it could not be locked in the
up position.

I do beleive it was you that I talked to (it was a Frank anyway) and it was
explained why Delta did not have this feature on their splitters (codes). I
emailed a drawing that showed the modifications (simple cuts and filing) to
the splitter and to the plastic guard. Never did receive any further
correspondence on that - not even an acknowledgment that the email was
recieved. No matter, I had a guard that stayed up even if the rest of the
world did not - at the time.

It was almost a year later, when the new tablesaw models arrived at
WoodWorkers Warehouse and my friend who worked there called me to say "Come
see your idea". Now I seriously doubt that I was the only person submitting
ideas to Delta on this and certainly not the only one complaining about the
splitter at the time - but one has to wonder.......

Q1 - What does it take to get Delta to accept an idea for a new feature,
enhancement, or safety related improvement ?

Q2 - What's the best way to get Delta's attention ?

It does appear that Delta resists making change until somebody else has
invented the wheel and decides to market it - and only then do they appear
to rise to the challenge. In this case, Jet had just introduced a guard
that stayed up on their new models and Delta followed. To me and probably
others, Delta may have had some "firsts" way back when but have since
decided to become a follower in the market instead of a leader. That's
probably a pretty typical corporate culture since the bean-counters now
dictate the technology used and not the design engineers.

I think many good, cost-effective ideas get trashed because it would cost a
few dollars more to include it - like the arbor nut/flange. That nut
couldn't possibly cost more than a couple of dollars to make and even after
a fair markup - should never cost $20 retail. But like many other
businesses - options usually cost more than they're worth. Corporate greed
takes over selling accessories and optional items instead of concentrating
on building a loyal customer base. You did note that I purchased a Jet
cabinet saw when it came time to upgrade for me and I paid a bit more for
the Jet than a Uni. After purchasing the Jet, I had a call from Customer
Service, asking if everything was okay. Delta never even sent a postcard or
email acknowledging that I even made a purchase from them.... It's all
about Customer service.

No, I'm not Delta bashing just showing how treating a customer from the
git-go, can be good or bad for the business. In this case, Delta lost. I
doubt that you set corporate policy while at Delta but I'll bet you had some
influence on it since you seem to have more than a casual insight into "why"
some decisions were made. That knowledge and influence (no matter how
insignificant you may think it is) could be used now to get Delta to pay
attention to the customer. They should consider hiring you back as a
consultant...

Now I missed the part as to why you're no longer at Delta but you seem very
much pro-Delta and willing to help anyone needing some Delta expertise.
Damned if I wouldn't be looking for ways to capitialize on that - even if I
was retired (if thats the case).

Just some random thoughts, not well thought out perhaps but certainly not
meant to **** anyone off either and if I have, I apologize.

Bob S.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:44:52 GMT, "BobS" wrote:

Okay, time for me to jump on in here with a question or two and some
comments since the discussion is again about the splitter / guard.

Frank, I doubt you'll remember me but I believe it was you I contacted about
5 years ago. Keith B. gave me your name and phone number at Delta. At any
rate, at the time I had a brand new Delta 34-444Z CS and I modified the
splitter / blade guard so that the guard would stay in the up position while
the blade was being changed. And as you stated (earlier post), it had to
fall back into position on it's own when nudged or contacted by a piece of
stock going thru the blade. Said another way, it could not be locked in the
up position.

I do beleive it was you that I talked to (it was a Frank anyway) and it was
explained why Delta did not have this feature on their splitters (codes). I
emailed a drawing that showed the modifications (simple cuts and filing) to
the splitter and to the plastic guard. Never did receive any further
correspondence on that - not even an acknowledgment that the email was
recieved. No matter, I had a guard that stayed up even if the rest of the
world did not - at the time.

Bob, I don't remember the specific conversation but it certainly could
have happened. I took calls from end user customers all the time on
all kinds of issues. I got great enjoyment out of it. I did check my
email archive and cannot find a reference but that doesn't mean
anything either. could have been forwarded and deleted.


It was almost a year later, when the new tablesaw models arrived at
WoodWorkers Warehouse and my friend who worked there called me to say "Come
see your idea". Now I seriously doubt that I was the only person submitting
ideas to Delta on this and certainly not the only one complaining about the
splitter at the time - but one has to wonder.......

Q1 - What does it take to get Delta to accept an idea for a new feature,
enhancement, or safety related improvement ?

I can't answer that question for this day and age or the next question
either. Prior to the consolidation of the tool group, engineering was
local, where the product was made and we had great control. We were
normally short handed but could prioritize projects and get things
done. But when consolidation took place, engineering was transferred
to the home office. Now that B & D owns the company, it may be in
Towson, MD for all I know. And the years from the consolidation at
the beginning of 2000 till the B & D sale could only be described as
chaotic.

Q2 - What's the best way to get Delta's attention ?

It does appear that Delta resists making change until somebody else has
invented the wheel and decides to market it - and only then do they appear
to rise to the challenge. In this case, Jet had just introduced a guard
that stayed up on their new models and Delta followed. To me and probably
others, Delta may have had some "firsts" way back when but have since
decided to become a follower in the market instead of a leader. That's
probably a pretty typical corporate culture since the bean-counters now
dictate the technology used and not the design engineers.

Many firsts some successful, some not. In the case of the guard lock
as I recall there was some confusion (in our minds at least) based on
the wording of the UL/CSA regs as to whether the Jet version and ours
were even legal initially. But even recently we were first with the
preset tension for different blade widths for the 14" Band Saw. First
with increased HP for that unit.

We were first with the use of sheet molded compound for saw tables.
This is a case where the material was very good, but the market just
would not accept it. more or less got burned.
I think many good, cost-effective ideas get trashed because it would cost a
few dollars more to include it - like the arbor nut/flange. That nut
couldn't possibly cost more than a couple of dollars to make and even after
a fair markup - should never cost $20 retail. But like many other
businesses - options usually cost more than they're worth. Corporate greed
takes over selling accessories and optional items instead of concentrating
on building a loyal customer base. You did note that I purchased a Jet
cabinet saw when it came time to upgrade for me and I paid a bit more for
the Jet than a Uni. After purchasing the Jet, I had a call from Customer
Service, asking if everything was okay. Delta never even sent a postcard or
email acknowledging that I even made a purchase from them.... It's all
about Customer service.

No idea what the arbor nut/flange costs to make. Actually the
Marketing people decide what features will be included. For instance,
when a and X5 series is initiated, it is marketing that determines
that an upscale blade, warranty extension, free goods, such as a
mobile base, etc are included. I'm kind of surprised they haven't put
that arbor nut/flange in either because it is very nice.

and I hope you are getting good service and enjoying your Jet.

No, I'm not Delta bashing just showing how treating a customer from the
git-go, can be good or bad for the business. In this case, Delta lost. I
doubt that you set corporate policy while at Delta but I'll bet you had some
influence on it since you seem to have more than a casual insight into "why"
some decisions were made. That knowledge and influence (no matter how
insignificant you may think it is) could be used now to get Delta to pay
attention to the customer. They should consider hiring you back as a
consultant...

I agree that treating customers with respect is of utmost importance.
For instance, my quality manager and I would both scan the rec every
day to look for unresolved issues. While I post now we didn't post
back then, against policy, however, Ron B. the Quality manager back
door contacted many people who had slipped through a crack in what was
usually a very good technical and customer service system.

As for the consultant, who knows.....I had another plan but Katrina
has caused me to rethink.

Now I missed the part as to why you're no longer at Delta but you seem very
much pro-Delta and willing to help anyone needing some Delta expertise.
Damned if I wouldn't be looking for ways to capitialize on that - even if I
was retired (if thats the case).

Very simple. As part of the consolidation the plant I ran was shut
down and I saw no reasonable place for myself elsewhere and elected to
take retirement.

I am pro Delta, or more accurately, I am a great supporter of those
products particularly in the industrial line that Delta has that I
consider either best of breed or most value offered. Not everything
fits into that category. I also know just enough about B & D's
strategy with the Delta industrial line to be somewhat encourged that
they are on the right track and are excited to have it.

Just some random thoughts, not well thought out perhaps but certainly not
meant to **** anyone off either and if I have, I apologize.

I'm certainly not offended

Frank
Bob S.

Frank,

Thanks for the clarifications and enlightenment and I sincerely hope your
future plans materialize. And if anyone from B&D/Delta is peeking - you have
a helluva resource in the wild that you should be using to the fullest
extent possible.

Now back to the Greg and Frank show.....

Bob S.

BobS wrote:
Frank,


Now back to the Greg and Frank show.....

Are my eyes bad or was that a Missoula Spook? And well played.

er
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