Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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Default OT Guns more Guns

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:13:52 GMT, Michael
wrote:

But the State that issued this guy an OFFICIAL Permit failed to check
him out? How is that anyone else's fault? Does this State Gov't just
collect dollars for PERMITS or do even regulate what is going on?

A States Government MUST be responsible when it issues PERMITS. Issuing
PERMITS to go hunting with firearms should NEVER be a Random Act!

Should drivers licenses be given to just anybody that can fog a mirror?
Surely a gun has a great possiblity of responsibility?
Why monitor drivers and not GUN PERMITS?

Sorry, this is that State Govt's responsibility .


So NOW you are FOR gun control?

LMAO !!!
--
Cliff
  #2   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:38:24 GMT, Michael
wrote:

If a home invader comes in with a hand grenade, that assault weapon
would be very useful.


Paper ..... scissors .... rock .......
So you are saying he needed more guns?

IIRC The hand grenade wins over a nest of machine guns ....
don't knw about paper though ...
Don't you need Nukes?
--
Cliff
  #3   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:32:26 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Care to give me the numbers of people killed or wounded by Assault
Weapons in 2003? Pick any year in the last 5. Post your cites.


So you are saying that gun control works? And that guns are
a danger to the public?
--
Cliff

  #4   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:37:45 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Which new and deadly weapons are you talking about John? Both
grenades and self loading rifles have been around for over 100 yrs.


Which is why everyone should have piles of them in their bunkers?

What if they go off & spoil the kibble?
--
Cliff

  #5   Report Post  
Grant Erwin
 
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Cliff wrote:

snip

Cliff, do you *ever* post anything to do with metalworking?


  #6   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:00:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Werent you one of the guys who was bitching about the loss of
freedoms because of the Patriot Act?


So a few Uzi-bangers with hand grenades is the answer?
What bunker are you from? Is it dark in there?
--
Cliff
  #7   Report Post  
Guy N. LaFrance
 
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On 23-Nov-2004, Cliff wrote:

Care to give me the numbers of people killed or wounded by Assault
Weapons in 2003? Pick any year in the last 5. Post your cites.


So you are saying that gun control works? And that guns are
a danger to the public?


Misuse of so-called "assault weapons" by criminals was statistically
insignificant *before* the so-called "ban" and they have *never* been a
serious problem for law enforcement. *Criminals* are a danger to the public
and *guns in the hands of lawful citizens* are a danger to criminals.

Do you post in talk.politics.guns? If not, is it because there are too many
2nd Amendment supporters with too many facts to counteract your blind hatred
of guns and freedom?
  #8   Report Post  
Guy N. LaFrance
 
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Cliff, you never directly confront the point. Why? It's obvious you have
nothing to bring to the table except blind, unreasoning hatred of the
Constitution, freedom, and democracy. Talking to you is a waste of time. You
will never succeed. You will remain an insignificant loser. Au revoir.
  #9   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:02:47 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Tell that to all the folks that died last year from being stabbed to
death with kitchen knives.


How may idiot wingers keep claiming that they make
you safer? From other idiots .....
--
Cliff
  #10   Report Post  
Lennie the Lurker
 
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Cliff wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:00:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Werent you one of the guys who was bitching about the loss of
freedoms because of the Patriot Act?


So a few Uzi-bangers with hand grenades is the answer?
What bunker are you from? Is it dark in there?


Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone. Had the laws not been
changed to allow this idocy, maybe there wouldn't have been so many.
Legal in Wisconsin used to be no more than three in the clip, one in
the chamber. Shotguns, two in the mag and one in the chamber. That's
six people murdered by an out of state kook with a kooks weapon.
Justify that. (The old laws used to be balanced by practicality, not
radical paranoia from gun freaks.) Several others wounded, and among
the dead and wounded, only one, sporting type deer rifle. One woman
included, shot off the back of an ATV, and again, only ONE had a
rifle. Real men with guns shoot at unarmed women. typical
conservative action.


  #11   Report Post  
Phillep
 
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"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone.


What do you think it's a clone of? The Russians designed it right after
WWII, the idea was drawn from a German rifle, but that's about it.

Had the laws not been
changed to allow this idocy, maybe there wouldn't have been so many.


Has the law in fact been changed? Got a cite on that?


  #12   Report Post  
John Scheldroup
 
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"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message m...
Cliff wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:00:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Werent you one of the guys who was bitching about the loss of
freedoms because of the Patriot Act?


So a few Uzi-bangers with hand grenades is the answer?
What bunker are you from? Is it dark in there?


Real men with guns shoot at unarmed women. typical
conservative action.


Yep.




  #13   Report Post  
GTO69RA4
 
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"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone.


What do you think it's a clone of? The Russians designed it right after
WWII, the idea was drawn from a German rifle, but that's about it.


Designed during WWII, actually. Duno about the German connection, although the
AK-47 was patterned after the STG-44.

The SKS has not been classed as an assault weapon by either the military
definition or any federal laws. I think California might have is listed as
such, but that's about it as far as I remember. It's not one of the guns with
features stripped down from a military version, like actual legal assault rifle
clones. Other than the extended magazine (not found in most SKS models and
outside of legislation since it's fixed to the gun, IIRC) it's an unremarkable
medium rifle. Very popular for deer since it's cheap, reliable, and
balistically similar to the old 30-30 round.

GTO(John)
  #15   Report Post  
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
 
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Default

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:51:29 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:02:47 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Tell that to all the folks that died last year from being stabbed to
death with kitchen knives.


How may idiot wingers keep claiming that they make
you safer? From other idiots .....



Like you perhaps?



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly


  #16   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:26:04 -0800, "Phillep"
wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone.


What do you think it's a clone of? The Russians designed it right after
WWII, the idea was drawn from a German rifle, but that's about it.

Had the laws not been
changed to allow this idocy, maybe there wouldn't have been so many.


Has the law in fact been changed? Got a cite on that?

If it had a 20 round detachable Magazine, it wasnt an SKS.

Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes
  #18   Report Post  
Phillep
 
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"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

For the "any gun should be legal" kooks, I don't have a copy of my
1956 hunting regs.


It's 2004, not 1956.

It's not addressed in the pdf I found:
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/regs/Deer04Regs1-35.pdf

so it may be legal now.

He was not cited for a firearms violation by the
officers that arrested him.


Kind of like citing a mass murderer for parking on the sidewalk, IMO.

I don't think you'll find much opposition in this state to ban those
weapons and extended magazines from the woods, a much needed measure.


Why? Weren't you talking about how common it was to see men riding bicycles,
wearing militia uniforms and carrying firearms? Think a uniform is going to
keep someone from going nuts and shooting up the place?

BTW, I quit the NRA because they are too soft on gun laws. JPFO is a much
better outfit.


  #19   Report Post  
GTO69RA4
 
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If it had a 20 round detachable Magazine, it wasnt an SKS.

Gunner


Probably was a fixed mag, from what I've heard at least. I do know that some
SKSs years ago were imported with AK-style mag wells.

GTO(John)
  #20   Report Post  
Phillep
 
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Default

"Gunner" wrote

If it had a 20 round detachable Magazine, it wasnt an SKS.


Not so. There was also a modified SKS availible back around 1990 that would
take standard AK mags. I wish I'd gotten one back then.

Also, there's a type of magazine I think of as a "duckbill", it looks sort
of like a normal magazine with a "beak" stuck out the front. The mouth of
the beak fits on the catch pin in front and the latch holds it in place in
back. They were made in 5, 10, and 20 cartridge models. Easily removed, but
I don't think it's counted as a "removable" because you have to hold the
bolt back. (I haven't messed with an SKS for a while, so don't really
remember.) The SKS is not modified. These magazines were availible in both
metal and Zytel. The plastic ones sucked (I got one.)

Google rec.guns, SKS +"AK magazine" 27 hits.




  #21   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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Default

On 25 Nov 2004 02:16:52 GMT, (GTO69RA4) wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone.


What do you think it's a clone of? The Russians designed it right after
WWII, the idea was drawn from a German rifle, but that's about it.


Designed during WWII, actually. Duno about the German connection, although the
AK-47 was patterned after the STG-44.

The SKS has not been classed as an assault weapon by either the military
definition or any federal laws. I think California might have is listed as
such, but that's about it as far as I remember. It's not one of the guns with
features stripped down from a military version, like actual legal assault rifle
clones. Other than the extended magazine (not found in most SKS models and
outside of legislation since it's fixed to the gun, IIRC) it's an unremarkable
medium rifle. Very popular for deer since it's cheap, reliable, and
balistically similar to the old 30-30 round.

GTO(John)


Its not an "assault rifle" even in California. The somehat similar
"SKS Sporter" which has a detachable magazine is on the List.

By modifying it with some serious work, it can be made to hold
detachable magazines, but then you have broken the law.

Im Still waiting for John to respond to the 4 photos post and to post
the results of the test in the post a bit later.

I suspect John really doesnt want to exhibit....A, his ignorance, B,
his blind phobias, C, his ignorance of the subject he is so passionate
about.

Or D, the extent to which his programmers have gone, inside of his
skull.

Gunner




Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes
  #22   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...

Unfortunately, money and blustering bull**** still talk louder than
rationale. Myself, I think there should be a bounty on NRA lobbyists.
$5 per head, 360 day open season, no bag limit. If still alive, no
bounty, go finish the job first.


Yeah, you have the bluster part right, Lennie.

Jeez, I hate gun control arguments. They're such a bunch of crap, and it
makes me sick that intelligent people like you and John can fall for such
transparent bull****.

There are plenty of issues to deal with concerning guns used in crimes, and
accidental deaths, and so on. They need the attention of good thinking and
untainted facts. Instead you repeat bull****, bull****, bull****...and you
wind up distracting attention from the real problems with symbolic gestures,
like "assault weapon" bans.

Here's the news, Lennie. There IS NO data indicating that more than, at
most, 2% of crimes are committed with "assault weapons." It's been that way
since before the bans were enacted, in the late '80s.

But Gunner is not correct that the FBI tracks this data. The FBI has said,
quite rightly, and in congressional hearings, that there is no useful,
nationwide data on the use of "assault weapons." The closest thing is city
records of guns confiscated, which show that something less than 1% of guns
confiscated are "assault weapons." The reports that indicate more than 2%
usage (actually, less than 1%; I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. The high
figure was 3.13%, in Miami, 1989. Guess where they came from, in Drug City
1989? Not from your local gun shop, pard'.) come from BATF. And they are
completely bogus. The BATF tracks only selected cases, for specific reasons.
They are not survey data. They make no claim that they're representative of
anything. But HCI et al don't want you to know that.

In fact, the entire case against "assault weapons" is a creation of HCI and
their cronies. They did it Dick Cheney/Karl Rove style: keep repeating a lie
until it sticks.

It started back in 1988. There was an extreme anti-gun activist named Josh
Sugarmann, who, like the folks at HCI, were getting frustrated as hell that
they couldn't whip up much revulsion among American voters against handgun
violence. So they changed tactics. Here's what Sugarmann said about it then,
in his polemic titled "Assault Weapons in America":

"The issue of handgun restriction remains a non-issue with the vast majority
of legislators, the press, and public. . . . Assault weapons . . . are a new
topic. The weapons` menacing looks, coupled with the public`s confusion over
fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons --
anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun -- can
only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these
weapons."

It was a political scam. And it worked. Fifteen years later, they have
people like John saying "we have to get these assault weapons off the
streets."

But they were never ON the streets, in any numbers. The guns used in crimes
continue to be handguns, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who's
tried to stuff an AR-15 under his coat. g

Back around 1990 I interviewed the people who keep gun records for the state
of NJ, for a series of PR editorials I wrote then. I was up to my neck in
the FBI/UCR stats, interviews with state UCR records-keepers, Dewey Stokes,
and the lawyers at ILA for well over a year, trying to get to the bottom of
it all. I lobbied NJ state Assemblymen, trying, in my naive way, to get the
truth out. I was verbally beaten up by a NJ state Senator, now blessedly
deceased. g Overall, it was not a pretty picture. I learned that much of
our legislation is based on intentional lies. The "assault weapons" bans are
among them.

Anyway, pulling together a few facts for this message, I came upon a summary
of testimony given by a top Trenton cop, whom I had talked to at the time,
and it reminded me of a few relevant facts. Here's the summary (not mine,
because I tossed my notes years ago, but it sounds exactly right, by my
memory):

"According to the Deputy Chief Joseph Constance of the Trenton New Jersey
Police Department, in 1989, there was not a single murder involving any
rifle, much less a "semiautomatic assault rifle," in the State of New
Jersey.[107] No person in New Jersey was killed with an "assault weapon" in
1988.[108] Nevertheless, in 1990 the New Jersey legislature enacted an
"assault weapon" ban that included low-power .22 rifles, and even BB guns.
Based on the legislature's broad definition of "assault weapons," in 1991,
such guns were used in five of 410 murders in New Jersey; in forty-seven of
22,728 armed robberies; and in twenty-three of 23,720 aggravated assaults
committed in New Jersey.[109]"

The numbers are cites that point to references to the text, if you want them
I'll tell you where you can find them.

New Jersey's experience is similar to that of most states. The "assault
weapon" issue was bogus, cooked up by HCI et al to stir up some trouble.
Their real target was handguns, but they treated the "assault weapon" issue
as a means to an end. Then "assault weapons" took off in the press's
imagination, much to the delight of gun-banners everywhere.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into a citation war over this. I think that
most people here know that I play it straight, and any figures that anyone
comes up with that indicate 5% or 10% of crimes are committed with "assault
weapons" are bogus, unequivocally; I'll only go after one if you cite them,
and you'll eat dirt before I'm done if you make me do it. I'm too busy for
that crap. g I forget where many of the bodies are buried but I'll find
one if I have to.

The point is, you've been had. In a big way. "Assault weapons" are not the
problem. 'Never were. It's all a distraction, which is intended to get you
drooling and foaming. And it's worked.

Now, while you're diddling around with bogus "assault weapon" issues, people
are getting killed. And guns are one issue. Crazy people who get their hands
on them are another issue. There are lots of real issues, and large
magazines are one of them. Gunner will go up a tree on this, and I refuse to
get into an argument with him about it, but big magazines are bad news.
SKS's are not bad news. They're innocuous little rifles with 10-shot fixed
magazines fed with stripper clips. But there are some after-the-fact models
made with removable magazines, and they can be a problem when people stick
20-round magazines on them. Also, I read that the one used by the deer
hunter was "modified" for the removable magazines. Apparently that's a
popular conversion. I don't know how many of them are around, but the
conversions ought to be outlawed, IMO.

When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils. He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids, and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines. This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be sacrificed in
the name of sanity and social comity. I'm not a purist about anything,
except using natural hackle and dubbing on my dry flies, and I'm willing to
toss big magazines over the side in the name of good sense, and as a symbol
of responsibility among gun owners. And I don't give a flying **** what
arguments Gunner makes about it. g

Ed Huntress


  #23   Report Post  
Mike In Santa Cruz
 
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snipped

The point is, you've been had. In a big way. "Assault weapons" are not the
problem. 'Never were. It's all a distraction, which is intended to get you
drooling and foaming. And it's worked.

Now, while you're diddling around with bogus "assault weapon" issues, people
are getting killed. And guns are one issue. Crazy people who get their hands
on them are another issue. There are lots of real issues, and large
magazines are one of them. Gunner will go up a tree on this, and I refuse to
get into an argument with him about it, but big magazines are bad news.
SKS's are not bad news. They're innocuous little rifles with 10-shot fixed
magazines fed with stripper clips. But there are some after-the-fact models
made with removable magazines, and they can be a problem when people stick
20-round magazines on them. Also, I read that the one used by the deer
hunter was "modified" for the removable magazines. Apparently that's a
popular conversion. I don't know how many of them are around, but the
conversions ought to be outlawed, IMO.

When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils. He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids, and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines. This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be sacrificed in
the name of sanity and social comity. I'm not a purist about anything,
except using natural hackle and dubbing on my dry flies, and I'm willing to
toss big magazines over the side in the name of good sense, and as a symbol
of responsibility among gun owners. And I don't give a flying **** what
arguments Gunner makes about it. g

Ed Huntress



hated to snipp Ed's good comments... here are some numbers.. though a
bit old.. that show what is actually being used to kill folks...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/guic.txt

* Although most crime is not committed with guns,
most gun crime is committed with handguns. pages
1 & 2

* In 1994, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms (ATF) received over 85,132 requests from
law enforcement agencies for traces of guns used
in crime. Over three quarters of the guns traced
by the ATF in 1994 were handguns (mostly pistols),
and almost a third were less than 3 years old.
page 4

* Surveys of inmates show that they prefer
concealable, large caliber guns. Juvenile
offenders appear to be more likely to possess guns
than adults. page 5


* Studies of the guns used in homicides show that
large caliber revolvers are the most frequent type
of gun used in murder, but the number of large
caliber semiautomatic guns used in murders is
increasing. page 5


* Little information exists about the use of
assault weapons in crime. The information that
does exist uses varying definitions of assault
weapons that were developed before the Federal
assault weapons ban was enacted. page 6

How often are guns used in violent crimes?

According to the National Crime Victimization
Survey (NCVS), almost 43.6 million criminal
victimizations occurred in 1993, including 4.4
million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault,
robbery, and aggravated assault. Of the victims
of these violent crimes, 1.3 million (29%) stated
that they faced an offender with a firearm.

In 1993, the FBI's Crime in the United States
estimated that almost 2 million violent crimes of
murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault were
reported to the police by citizens. About 582,000
of these reported murders, robberies, and
aggravated assaults were committed with firearms.
Murder was the crime that most frequently involved
firearms; 70% of the 24,526 murders in 1993 were
committed with firearms.

Most stolen guns are handguns

Victims report to the Victim Survey that in 53% of
the thefts of guns, handguns were stolen. The
FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include
information on--
1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)
470,000 rifles (22%)
356,000 shotguns (17%).

From 1985 to 1994, the FBI received an annual
average of over 274,000 reports of stolen guns

How many automatic weapons are stolen?

Under the provisions of the National Firearms Act,
all automatic weapons such as machine guns must be
registered with the ATF. In 1995, over 240,000
automatic weapons were registered with the ATF.
As of March 1995, the NCIC stolen gun file
contained reports on about 7,700 machine guns and
submachine guns.

etc etc,
Mike
  #24   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
. com...

Unfortunately, money and blustering bull**** still talk louder than
rationale. Myself, I think there should be a bounty on NRA lobbyists.
$5 per head, 360 day open season, no bag limit. If still alive, no
bounty, go finish the job first.


Yeah, you have the bluster part right, Lennie.

Jeez, I hate gun control arguments. They're such a bunch of crap, and it
makes me sick that intelligent people like you and John can fall for such
transparent bull****.


Uh, shouldn't that be SUPPOSEDLY intelligent people or maybe ALLEGEDLY
intelligent people? When someone gives evidence they lack intelligence, I
generally believe them.
(snip)
  #25   Report Post  
Tim May
 
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When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils. He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids, and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines. This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be sacrificed in
the name of sanity and social comity.

....

Ed Huntress



I agree, Ed Huntress should be sacrificed in the name of sanity and
social comity.

I killfiled him a while back ago because of his many pro-confiscation,
anti-gun, anti-liberty sentiments. I occasionally see his crap when
someone, as here, quotes him. Not too often, as he doesn't seem to have
much of a following.

The difference between 10 rounds (reloadable with stripper clips) and
20 rounds is a distinction without a difference. The Wisconsin folks
got killt because they were outgunned, and not expecting a little VC
guy to shoot back when--as reports have it--they fired in his
direction.

For Huntress to call for the sacrificing of those with large clips is
proof that gun owners are themselves the gun-owning community's worst
enemy. It's why I quite the NRA in disgust in the mid-90s.

(With the NRA itself calling for gun registration and "instant check"
data bases, it became clear that they were the main enemy.)


--Tim May


  #26   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Tim May" wrote in message
...


For Huntress to call for the sacrificing of those with large clips is
proof that gun owners are themselves the gun-owning community's worst
enemy. It's why I quite the NRA in disgust in the mid-90s.


I'll bet they were crushed, Tim.

Ed Huntress


  #27   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"The Watcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"


wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
. com...

Unfortunately, money and blustering bull**** still talk louder than
rationale. Myself, I think there should be a bounty on NRA lobbyists.
$5 per head, 360 day open season, no bag limit. If still alive, no
bounty, go finish the job first.


Yeah, you have the bluster part right, Lennie.

Jeez, I hate gun control arguments. They're such a bunch of crap, and it
makes me sick that intelligent people like you and John can fall for such
transparent bull****.


Uh, shouldn't that be SUPPOSEDLY intelligent people or maybe ALLEGEDLY
intelligent people? When someone gives evidence they lack intelligence, I
generally believe them.


'Same here.

Ed Huntress


  #28   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Ed Huntress says...

Here's the news, Lennie. There IS NO data indicating that more than, at
most, 2% of crimes are committed with "assault weapons."


Shame shame, Ed. Data "ARE" not "is". You of all people. g

When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils. He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids, and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


Probably because they can't hit anything with the first shot anyway.
I think the hunting education is 'ol Wisconsin is going to have
to include a section on "what to do when the deer start shooting
back."

Jim


--
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  #29   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Lennie the Lurker
says...

There are six people dead, that is not bull****. They were killed by
a kook that thought he had to have a 20 round magazine to hunt deer.
THAT IS THE BULL****.


Actually that guy probably could have done the deed just as well
with a 30-30 and a tubular magazine.

... Either admit that those huge clips
aren't needed,


You really didn't read his whole post, did you? Go
back and check it again, you might be suprised.

Jim


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  #31   Report Post  
Jeffrey C. Dege
 
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On 25 Nov 2004 07:24:34 -0800, Lennie the Lurker wrote:

There are six people dead, that is not bull****. They were killed by
a kook that thought he had to have a 20 round magazine to hunt deer.


Actually, yes. It is bull****.

An SKS has a fixed 10-round magazine.

THAT IS THE BULL****. If it had not been for the NRA and other wacko
groups, that gun would not have been legal in the woods,


The SKS was not banned under the AWB, and would not have been included
under any of the proposed extensions to it, because it doesn't use
removable magazines. You have to load the rounds into the gun from the
top, one round at a time.

--
Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!
  #32   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:32:49 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Something evidently you are totally unfamiliar with, basing
your posts on fear, paranoia and phobia and nothing else.


Tell us again why you *need* guns?

LMAO !!!
--
Cliff

  #33   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

But Gunner is not correct that the FBI tracks this data.


Just more of his BS, eh?
Looks like the pond thawed.
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  #34   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun


How many kids with toy plastic guns have the police shot over
the years? All in self defense .....

They are going to see those guns ....... even the real ones.
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  #35   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?
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Cliff


  #36   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 06:26:03 GMT, Mike In Santa Cruz
wrote:

Most stolen guns are handguns

Victims report to the Victim Survey that in 53% of
the thefts of guns, handguns were stolen. The
FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include
information on--
1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)
470,000 rifles (22%)
356,000 shotguns (17%).


Like I keep saying .... they make the owner a taget.

In those ~2,000,000 cases, how many times did
the gun get used in self-defense?
Looks like about none.

How many thefts would NOT have happened,
including all associated injuries & deaths, had they
NOT had thse guns to steal?

OTOH We now have probably ~2,000,000 more
people armed to protect themselves with guns,
do we not?
--
Cliff
  #37   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 06:26:03 GMT, Mike In Santa Cruz
wrote:

Most stolen guns are handguns


Because most guns are such?

Victims report to the Victim Survey that in 53% of
the thefts of guns, handguns were stolen. The
FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include
information on--
1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)
470,000 rifles (22%)
356,000 shotguns (17%).


Nothing there about automatics?

From 1985 to 1994, the FBI received an annual
average of over 274,000 reports of stolen guns

How many automatic weapons are stolen?

Under the provisions of the National Firearms Act,
all automatic weapons such as machine guns must be
registered with the ATF. In 1995, over 240,000
automatic weapons were registered with the ATF.
As of March 1995, the NCIC stolen gun file
contained reports on about 7,700 machine guns and
submachine guns.


How do the ratios compare?
Are automatics the gun of choice?

7700/240000 = 2,000,000/X .... how big is X?

That might tell more of the tale.
--
Cliff
  #38   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:19:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Tim May" wrote in message
t...


For Huntress to call for the sacrificing of those with large clips is
proof that gun owners are themselves the gun-owning community's worst
enemy. It's why I quite the NRA in disgust in the mid-90s.


I'll bet they were crushed, Tim.


G

For Tim: http://www.imgag.com/product/full/ap...7/graphic1.swf
--
Cliff
  #39   Report Post  
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:31:29 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:26:04 -0800, "Phillep"
wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone.


What do you think it's a clone of? The Russians designed it right after
WWII, the idea was drawn from a German rifle, but that's about it.

Had the laws not been
changed to allow this idocy, maybe there wouldn't have been so many.


Has the law in fact been changed? Got a cite on that?

If it had a 20 round detachable Magazine, it wasnt an SKS.


Hmmm. I've got an SKS with a 30 round detachable mag. Go figure.


Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly
  #40   Report Post  
Robert Sturgeon
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
. com...

Unfortunately, money and blustering bull**** still talk louder than
rationale. Myself, I think there should be a bounty on NRA lobbyists.
$5 per head, 360 day open season, no bag limit. If still alive, no
bounty, go finish the job first.


Yeah, you have the bluster part right, Lennie.

Jeez, I hate gun control arguments. They're such a bunch of crap, and it
makes me sick that intelligent people like you and John can fall for such
transparent bull****.


(gun control argumentation, snipped)

When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils.


Really? How odd. It doesn't bother me one bit.

He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids, and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


I'm none of the above, and yet I understand the utility of
large capacity magazines.

This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be sacrificed in
the name of sanity and social comity.


The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting or social comity.

I'm not a purist about anything,
except using natural hackle and dubbing on my dry flies, and I'm willing to
toss big magazines over the side in the name of good sense,


Big magazines ARE very sensible.

and as a symbol
of responsibility among gun owners. And I don't give a flying **** what
arguments Gunner makes about it. g


I understand that you don't care about the arguments put
forth by those who disagree with you. But when did that
detail ever stop anyone??? The 2nd Amendment guarantees my
right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family,
friends, neighbors and country. Large capacity magazines
make a firearm a better tool for that purpose, and thus are
a Good Thing(tm). You'll notice that the military and
police, tasked with the same duty to defend, do not limit
themselves to 10 round magazines when 30 or 40 round
magazines are available. I see no reason I should either.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
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