In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
It was designed to be used on the simplest of computers world wide on
any OS - but of course that would be a red rag to Gates.

Ah! So now you're trying to move the goalposts and turn this into an
anti-Microsoft sub-thread, which I take to mean you've run out of
arguments, even unconvincing ones.

No - just comparing him unfavourably to you - since you patently don't
understand the idea of a low bandwidth text only service that can be used
by any computer on even dial up at low cost. By all your talk of using
HTML, etc, elsewhere.

Life is too short for this, it's easier just to plonk you.

Please do. Wonder why you think anyone cares who you killfile? Says quite
a bit about you.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Paul Martin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:

HTML posts are much easier to read and to quote

That's just so wrong...

and are also plain text
(they don't use any special characters) but you will get a lot of flack
from
the ones that don't like change if you use HTML.

HTML is unnecessary markup which usually far exceeds the text in size.
HTML quoting forces your idea of how things ought to look on me, even
if I have different preferences.

Absolute rubbish.
It is *your* reader that decides how to display it and the sender cannot
force anything on you.
If you want to your reader can just extract the text and ignore everything.


Usenet is words without markup.

That is also rubbish.
If it doesn't have mark up why are my quotes marked with "".
Quoting the replies is using a mark up language, just a very simple one that
is frequently screwed up as the opening quote is "" and the end is nl
both of which frequently occur in other places.

RTF is plain text too, as is LaTeX.
Should I arbitrarily start posting in LaTeX markup? Oh but your reader
doesn't understand it. Well, my reader doesn't understand HTML either.

My reader can cope with latex.
I can just shove your posts through a program to convert them.

Java Jive wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:35:33 +0100, Harold wrote:

I wish all newsservers would use QED, the "quoting effusion detector"
developed by Steve Gibson for his groups :-)
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#QED

That would amount to censorship.

That statement is both absurd and untrue. *Nothing* is censored.
You just clearly can't understand logic...
Over and out.

--
Harold

"Paul Martin" wrote in message ...


begin 600 hide_sig.txt

what sig?

"Paul Martin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Paul Martin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:

HTML posts are much easier to read and to quote

That's just so wrong...

and are also plain text
(they don't use any special characters) but you will get a lot of flack
from
the ones that don't like change if you use HTML.

HTML is unnecessary markup which usually far exceeds the text in size.
HTML quoting forces your idea of how things ought to look on me, even
if I have different preferences.

Absolute rubbish.
It is *your* reader that decides how to display it and the sender cannot
force anything on you.

You're forcing HTML. You're forcing colours and fonts and layout.

If you want to your reader can just extract the text and ignore
everything.

So you're going to send a plain text version *and* an HTML version, ie.
multipart/alternative? How utterly wasteful.

No.
You can process it as you like.


Usenet is words without markup.

That is also rubbish.
If it doesn't have mark up why are my quotes marked with "".
Quoting the replies is using a mark up language, just a very simple one
that
is frequently screwed up as the opening quote is "" and the end is nl
both of which frequently occur in other places.

It is minimal, does not obscure, and is purely convention

The same as HTML then.

, which also
existed on FidoNet.

Well we know what happened to fidonet.

Other conventions include emphasis of *two*
_types_.

/really/?


I'll bet your reader (if it's not OE) colours quotes to your chosing.

Even OE colours if you use html.


RTF is plain text too, as is LaTeX.
Should I arbitrarily start posting in LaTeX markup? Oh but your reader
doesn't understand it. Well, my reader doesn't understand HTML either.

My reader can cope with latex.
I can just shove your posts through a program to convert them.

Your reader won't cope with LaTeX natively. Mine can't cope with HTML
natively.

begin 600 hide_sig.txt

What sig?

dennis@home wrote:
"Paul Martin" wrote in message

I'll bet your reader (if it's not OE) colours quotes to your chosing.

Even OE colours if you use html.


How do reader apps for the blind cope with coloured text?

Andy

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:
"Paul Martin" wrote in message

I'll bet your reader (if it's not OE) colours quotes to your chosing.

Even OE colours if you use html.


How do reader apps for the blind cope with coloured text?

By using a different voice?
That would justify having to use html wouldn't it. ;-)

"Paul Martin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:

begin 600 hide_sig.txt

What sig?

You don't mean OE still has that bug?!?!

AFAIK it never did, I never had anyone hide a sig AFAIK. ;-)

In message , Java Jive
writes:
Exactly, and that applies to EVERYONE. So why don't you and others
stop wasting everyone's time complaining about top-posting? However

.. For the same reason - or more likely reasons - you don't stop
responding, I suspect (-: ..
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

"We know that primitive man felt anger, as is evidenced by the deep kick marks
that archeologists have found in prehistoric vending machines." - Dave Barry

In message , Paul
Martin writes:
[]
HTML posts are much easier to read and to quote

That's just so wrong...

.. It's his opinion. I don't happen to agree with it either, but it isn't
wrong. ..
[]
You're forcing HTML. You're forcing colours and fonts and layout.

.. Actually, you're forcing lots of extra garbage like [font]; it is the
reader which might interpret it into colours and fonts. However, most
readers are indeed capable of so doing these days. (And blind access
software can then just access the text.) ..

If you want to your reader can just extract the text and ignore everything.

.. Again, _most_ readers can. Whether those who like using HTML should
refrain from using it just for the benefit of the declining proportion
of users whose readers can't separate the text from the garbage is an
argument which has no end. ..

So you're going to send a plain text version *and* an HTML version, ie.
multipart/alternative? How utterly wasteful.

.. Though I agree (but that's probably at least partly because I'm not
fond of HTML), I don't usually raise that argument these days - for most
people bandwidth - at least to this extent - isn't really a problem.
(Even on dialup, multipart emails and posts of this type aren't really
significant, compared to even the smallest picture.) ..

Usenet is words without markup.

.. It can be. ..

That is also rubbish.
If it doesn't have mark up why are my quotes marked with "".
Quoting the replies is using a mark up language, just a very simple one that
is frequently screwed up as the opening quote is "" and the end is nl
both of which frequently occur in other places.

.. The difference with the quoting convention is that, if the "marked-up"
text is not parsed in any way (such as turning the quote indicators into
vertical lines), it rarely renders the text much harder to read (except,
perhaps, via access software where they are often rendered as "greater
than"); HTML, however, if not rendered, [boing]renders the [font]text
very hard to[/font] read[/boing]. ..
[]
begin 600 hide_sig.txt

.. I suspect I'm not quite getting the joke there, though I might be!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

"We know that primitive man felt anger, as is evidenced by the deep kick marks
that archeologists have found in prehistoric vending machines." - Dave Barry

In message
,
"bando?ers@gmail" writes:

If your time is short, don't read this, as most of it has been said/a
couple of posts crossed while I was composing this.(no net access for
me this last week), but I still want to put it all in perspective.

.. It is good to hear from one for whom this particular discussion was
started (or at least the a.c.b-u 'group was added); we sighted folk can
argue what we think makes things harder or easier for you, but it is
always good to have input from someone who knows. ..

I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this, although it hardly
seems needed/several good thoughtful comments, and a good bit of time
wasting bs from ego obsessed...well...bleepers. I hope my post style
is understood by all that care to understand, and I'm sure that a few

.. I understand your post. ..
[]
Quotes were fewer and farther between on the groups that I
frequented, and most folks took the time to think and snip. I thought

.. Indeed, folks do indeed seem to have less time to snip nowadays. ..

my mb10 in box was plenty big. Times have changed, but just because
we have something there is no reason to waste it./every packet we send
and receive is moved by electricitty which usually comes from some

.. An interesting point. Whether the equipment uses more power when
communicating than when idling I don't know; I suspect that it does, but
the difference is minimal, and that there are a few circumstances where
it even uses less. Bt on the whole, it probably is more. ..

dirty origin. Don't know about the UK, but in the US many places are
short on band width, and the same is true here in southern Mexico.

.. I suspect that the format of text emails and posts - i. e. whether
top, bottom, or interposted, and whether in plain text or other such as
HTML - makes very little difference to bandwidth shortages compared to
pictures, sound, and video. ..
[]
block quote
(Although I strongly prefer bottom-posting - or, actually, snip and
interposting, see later posts - I never say either is "incorrect".) ..
block quote end

If you're going either route, try to keep it clear and intuitive/who
has the first line does not matter that much to me, but please!
don't make me wade through five or ten lines of the same old muck just
to see your one-liner!

.. Agreed! Certainly snip, and arguably if you're just posting a
one-liner, don't quote at all! Many news clients can be configured not
to quote. ..
[]
block quote
. It is the normal convention on usenet
to quote some of the posting to
which one is replying, so that anyone joining the thread can get some
idea of what you're on about.
block quote end
SOME is the opperant word here.

.. We agree again. ..

block quote
[]
is often courteous to do some judicial snippin...
block quote end

I'd say "judicial snipping" should only leave the most important
facts

.. We're singing from the same sheet! ..
[]
block quote
...how much to leave in
place for the benefit of newcomers is always a matter of personal
judgement, and there is no correct answer.
block quote end

Agreed, but I am opposed to always reverting to the lowest common
denominator,

.. If by that, you mean leaving the whole of the original post in place,
especially if only adding one line especially if at the top, I agree
with you! ..

or the constant retelling of the same old story
that everyone has heard, just because one nube has come in to the

.. However, if I detect someone genuinely is new to usenet (or to a
newsgroup that favours bottom-posting, and/or snipping and
interposting), I prefer to politely explain to them what is "local"
custom, rather than flame them. ..
[]
Yeppers, my whole point is that good usenet policy and polotic puts a
burden of claritty
on the poster, so some thoughtful quoting is helpful.

.. Again we are in agreement! ..

So, please, people, this is a blind-users group! Let's keep the
clutter down!

.. Well, it's now in five 'groups. I first came across it in
uk.tech.broadcast I think, though I am now reading it in the blind
'group. It might be worth stressing the point to posters in other
'groups what Burt says there - many blind folk "read" via speech output,
so quoting that hasn't been snipped very well - or not at all - wastes a
lot of time. I've tried to snip as much as possible (shown by "[]"),
while still leaving enough to make the context clear, but I'm still
aware that I've left rather a lot.

Burt Henry
[]
.. Thanks again for giving us a real viewpoint from the other side, as it
were. ..
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

"We know that primitive man felt anger, as is evidenced by the deep kick marks
that archeologists have found in prehistoric vending machines." - Dave Barry

In article , Paul
Martin scribeth thus
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:

HTML posts are much easier to read and to quote

That's just so wrong...

Agree spawn of Satan.. plaintext is excellent

Being read here via Turnpike ver 5.02 )

I'm not bothered by the odd bit of top posting what gets my goat is
people who quote loads on text in reply for just a word or two at the
bottom;!...

--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
I'm not bothered by the odd bit of top posting what gets my goat is
people who quote loads on text in reply for just a word or two at the
bottom;!...

Indeed - hence a decent newsreader warning you if you attempt it.

I subscribe to a (US based) Yahoo group about one model of car, and the
'owner' has strict rules - like always including a sig saying your
version of the model and where you live. Saves the problem of 'I need a
humgrommet fitted - can anyone recommend a mechanic close to here?'
Plenty seem to find this a problem so he just tells them politely to f
off. Even although there are details on how to add a sig for most common
progs.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...

begin 600 hide_sig.txt

. I suspect I'm not quite getting the joke there, though I might be!

Its the start of a multipart bit of text.
At one time OE would do just that and assume it was part of the control text
and not the post.
It would then dump what was left as it was looking for the termination bit
to start processing it.
It is a really old bug, but still has an effect on some people as they are
still using really old software.
Most linux users always use really old windows software so they can say how
bad it is (like comparing 7+ year old XP with 9 week old linux and saying
look how insecure windows is).
The joke was that I replied what sig even though it was there. 8-)

On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 21:13:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , "dennis@home"
writes:
Brian is blind and uses a screen reader of some sort.

Bottom posting is a problem when used with a screen reader as it is
difficult to find the content.

. I'm puzzled as to how, and I'm sitting in a household belonging to two
screenreader users as I type this. ..

Sometimes it is difficult using a screen reader to work out where the
various posters have said what. This mainly is due to the MUA
software not allowing the user to arrow through a message in the
traditional sense - if for example in OE or the default mode in Agent,
if you use the arrow keys to move through a post, you aren't actually
moving the cursor up/down, but scrolling the whole window. In Outlook
Express at least, the screen reader historically just used to read
everything out to the user automatically. Imagine that reading mode
with interleaved quoting - there is an immediate issue as you are
trying to remember exactly how deep specific quotes are, plus the
readout is broken up by repetition of symbols being read out.

Some screen readers will truncate the echo of the symbol - either
due to a user defined dictionary file which stops the speaking of the
character in these situations, or because there are many symbols (in
the case of a long post where someone has commented at the bottom).
On my screen reader for instance, if there are more than 3 consecutive
symbols in a row, the reader will just read the first 2 and skip the
rest.

In the case where there are many varied quoting styles used in a
group, it may not be obvious to someone with no sight (remember that
most software differentiates quoting and non quoting with different
colours) where exactly they need to focus their attentions. This can
sometimes slow the reader down considerably.

After saying all that, I find that with the limited sight I do
actually have, I prefer reading/posting to Usenet using my ancient
Agent 1.93 (later versions cause issues with screen readers) using
interleaved quoting. However, such programs as Outlook (which I use
for email at work and have recently moved to this at home for
convenience sake) makes this horribly difficult for *anyone*, and so I
have taken to top posting for email correspondence (specifically
blindness related email lists).

I feel that it is good etiquette to follow the pattern of the majority
in the group/list to which you are subscribing. Thus, it is probably
bad etiquette to post using interleaved quoting in a blindness related
email list where everyone else top posts for the same reason that it
is bad etiquette to post in a Usenet group where everyone else uses
interleaved quoting.

Thanks.
Andrew.

In article . com,
Andrew Hodgson wrote:
However, such programs as Outlook (which I use
for email at work and have recently moved to this at home for
convenience sake) makes this horribly difficult for *anyone*, and so I
have taken to top posting for email correspondence (specifically
blindness related email lists).

I'm happy with top posting for emails. They are usually a one to one
'conversation' rather than the free for all of news. So you might be
expected to remember what was said last. However, email lists are more
akin to newsgroups.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:45:22 +0100, dennis@home explained:

M$ change stuff for a reason.
You may not like the reason but it is always for a reason.

Yes to force people on to a new version (often by introducing
incompatibilities between old and new) in order to generate
further sales and maintain profits.

In message . com,
Andrew Hodgson writes:
[snip]
quoting:
Sometimes it is difficult using a screen reader to work out where the
various posters have said what. This mainly is due to the MUA
software not allowing the user to arrow through a message in the
traditional sense - if for example in OE or the default mode in Agent,
if you use the arrow keys to move through a post, you aren't actually
moving the cursor up/down, but scrolling the whole window. In Outlook
Express at least, the screen reader historically just used to read
everything out to the user automatically. Imagine that reading mode

my bit:
.. The person sitting opposite me at this moment is reading news with OE
(and Window-Eyes), and I do not think he is having any difficulty with
just moving the cursor down; however, I understand this may not be easy
for all cases. ..

quoting:
with interleaved quoting - there is an immediate issue as you are
trying to remember exactly how deep specific quotes are, plus the

my bit:
.. Again, I see what you mean. Of course, it doesn't help when people
leave in the contributions made by many other posters, rather than
snipping a bit more. ..

quoting:
readout is broken up by repetition of symbols being read out.

my bit:
.. I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?
(AFAICT, Window-Eyes doesn't.) ..
[snip]

quoting:
After saying all that, I find that with the limited sight I do
actually have, I prefer reading/posting to Usenet using my ancient
Agent 1.93 (later versions cause issues with screen readers) using
interleaved quoting. However, such programs as Outlook (which I use

my bit:
.. I'm pleased to read that you like interleaved quoting. ..

quoting:
for email at work and have recently moved to this at home for
convenience sake) makes this horribly difficult for *anyone*, and so I
have taken to top posting for email correspondence (specifically
blindness related email lists).

my bit:
.. Have you experimented with Dominic Jain's OE-Quotefix? It certainly
fixes one of the most glaring problems with OE - the fact that it puts
the signature at the top - as well as various minor matters. (Oh, and
it's free.) I have no idea, I'm afraid, how well or badly it works with
access software, though I would have _thought_ it ought not to have
problems. ..

quoting:
I feel that it is good etiquette to follow the pattern of the majority
in the group/list to which you are subscribing. Thus, it is probably
bad etiquette to post using interleaved quoting in a blindness related
email list where everyone else top posts for the same reason that it

my bit:
.. I agree; the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..

quote:
is bad etiquette to post in a Usenet group where everyone else uses
interleaved quoting.

reply:
.. I fear there are very few places where everyone uses interleaved
posting - it is sadly rather rare! ..

Thanks.
Andrew.

.. You're welcome - John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

"We know that primitive man felt anger, as is evidenced by the deep kick marks
that archeologists have found in prehistoric vending machines." - Dave Barry

In article ,
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
I agree; the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..

I'd guess he's sitting back laughing at it all...

--
*He who laughs last has just realised the joke.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "J. P. Gilliver
(John)" writes

. Again, I see what you mean. Of course, it doesn't help when people
leave in the contributions made by many other posters, rather than
snipping a bit more. ..

Snipping blindness is a curse. I always try to present readers with a
single screen. I'm a ruthless snipper.

Cross-posts set to a Usenet-compliant number.
--
James Follett.
Http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett
updated to include 'Wings' air and vehicle show pictures at
Dunsfold. http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk

On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:34:34 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article . com,
Andrew Hodgson wrote:
However, such programs as Outlook (which I use
for email at work and have recently moved to this at home for
convenience sake) makes this horribly difficult for *anyone*, and so I
have taken to top posting for email correspondence (specifically
blindness related email lists).

I'm happy with top posting for emails. They are usually a one to one
'conversation' rather than the free for all of news. So you might be
expected to remember what was said last.

In this case quoting should not be necessary at all.

However, email lists are more akin to newsgroups.

Agreed.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
[Reply-to address valid until it is spammed.]

In article ,
Mark wrote:
I'm happy with top posting for emails. They are usually a one to one
'conversation' rather than the free for all of news. So you might be
expected to remember what was said last.

In this case quoting should not be necessary at all.

No - but it's common practice to copy the mail you're replying to below.

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 22:59:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message . com,
Andrew Hodgson writes:

[...]

In Outlook
Express at least, the screen reader historically just used to read
everything out to the user automatically. Imagine that reading mode

The person sitting opposite me at this moment is reading news with OE
(and Window-Eyes), and I do not think he is having any difficulty with
just moving the cursor down; however, I understand this may not be easy
for all cases. ..

Interesting... Will have to check that out at some stage, especially
if I end up moving to Windows 7, though I am still more likely to use
Thunderbird rather than OE.

[...]

readout is broken up by repetition of symbols being read out.

I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?

Not here using JFW 10. The best it could probably do is either skip
out the lines beginning with or change the voice to something
different. This may end up being more annoying in the end though.

[...]

Have you experimented with Dominic Jain's OE-Quotefix? It certainly
fixes one of the most glaring problems with OE - the fact that it puts
the signature at the top - as well as various minor matters.

Yes, it does work with speech ok. Though when I tried it on another
system we still had the arrow problem in OE.

[...]

the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..

I use interleave quoting here as well as on all other Usenet. It is
specifically the blindness related email lists which cause a problem.

Thanks.
Andrew.

Bob Martin wrote:
in 223906 20090906 131720 "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Ken

(I've just added "sig separator" to that.) Doesn't explain Mr. Jive's
choice of format though.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

"We know that primitive man felt anger, as is evidenced by the deep kick marks
that archeologists have found in prehistoric vending machines." - Dave Barry


Your posts are a mess - I find it difficult to see what you are adding to the thread.
(I deliberately didn't snip in order to illustrate the problem)

Bob,

I don't know what newsreader you are using (I can't see it in the post)
but it should have cut John's post off at the line that contains
dash-dash-space. Most newsreaders also display anything below there in
grey, which helps distinguish the signature from the main body.

Though that probably doesn't help the blind!

Andy

--
This bit ought to be in grey, and automatically omitted if you hit reply

In message . com,
Andrew Hodgson writes:
[]
The person sitting opposite me at this moment is reading news with OE
(and Window-Eyes), and I do not think he is having any difficulty with
just moving the cursor down; however, I understand this may not be easy
for all cases. ..

.. To confirm, he still is having no problems. Windows XP, if that's
relevant; I can't tell you what version of OE or Window-Eyes. ..
[]
I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?

Not here using JFW 10. The best it could probably do is either skip

.. Thanks for confirming. One for the JFW/WindowEyes/whatever designers
to look into, I think; the "" quoting method has been around a long
time, so it's about time they considered it. ..
[]
Have you experimented with Dominic Jain's OE-Quotefix? It certainly
[]
Yes, it does work with speech ok. Though when I tried it on another
system we still had the arrow problem in OE.

.. I've found it - or the Outlook version, anyway - still doesn't work
with HTML emails. ..
[]
I use interleave quoting here as well as on all other Usenet. It is
specifically the blindness related email lists which cause a problem.
[]
.. Ah, I hadn't spotted the email lists aspect of your post. I understand
now. ..
--
J. P. Gilliver

In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
I don't know what newsreader you are using (I can't see it in the post)
but it should have cut John's post off at the line that contains
dash-dash-space. Most newsreaders also display anything below there in
grey, which helps distinguish the signature from the main body.

You can choose whatever colours you want for quotes - based on the number
of '' - and the sig on mine.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:44:15 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
I don't know what newsreader you are using (I can't see it in the post)
but it should have cut John's post off at the line that contains
dash-dash-space. Most newsreaders also display anything below there in
grey, which helps distinguish the signature from the main body.

You can choose whatever colours you want for quotes - based on the
number of '' - and the sig on mine.

Same here. Mind, I've only been using this newsreader for a few hours
after the unfortunate experiment with Knode...the 8 year old unfixed
Followup-To: misfeature...



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 1 Sep, 09:28, "dennis@home" wrote:

HiFi is something the youth of today fail to understand.
They wouldn't buy mp3 players if they knew anything about HiFi.

....and you wouldn't knock mp3 players if you'd heard a good one (with
decent files on it).

Cheers,
David.

"2Bdecided" wrote in message
...
On 1 Sep, 09:28, "dennis@home" wrote:

HiFi is something the youth of today fail to understand.
They wouldn't buy mp3 players if they knew anything about HiFi.

...and you wouldn't knock mp3 players if you'd heard a good one (with
decent files on it).

There is no such thing as a decent mp3 file, they do not exist.
All mp3 files are compressed and are far from being as good as the source
they came from.
You wouldn't claim there was if you had actually compared the source with
the mp3.

BTW some "mp3" players will play lossless files ie. not mp3, I suggest you
try one.

Ivan wrote:
I wouldn't mind betting that there are plenty of people in their
sixties' nudging seventies contributing to this newsgroup who wouldn't
mind a pound for every technical problem they've sorted out for people
less than half their age ;-)

Age discrimination is as bad as any other. And, as you rightly say, the
same nonsense.

gr, hwh

In message , "dennis@home"
writes:


"2Bdecided" wrote in message
...
On 1 Sep, 09:28, "dennis@home" wrote:

HiFi is something the youth of today fail to understand.
They wouldn't buy mp3 players if they knew anything about HiFi.

...and you wouldn't knock mp3 players if you'd heard a good one (with
decent files on it).

There is no such thing as a decent mp3 file, they do not exist.
All mp3 files are compressed and are far from being as good as the
source they came from.

Have you ever heard a very-high-bitrate mp3 file?

At what level of "corruption" do you draw the line - .1%? .001%? 1 PPM?
If you insist on zero, I will withdraw from the discussion (-:

You wouldn't claim there was if you had actually compared the source
with the mp3.

BTW some "mp3" players will play lossless files ie. not mp3, I suggest
you try one.


Some mp3 files _are_ - *for practical purposes* - indistinguishable from
the original; however, I won't say "I suggest you try one".
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

age. fac ut gaudeam.

Howdy John, and to get the love fest out of the way at the beginning,
I have allways liked your posts, often learned something, and forget
that you are not blind as your insight and understanding of VI comp
related issues surpasses that of many blind users/maybe we should make
you an honorary blind-guy. Trust me, that would be better than the
real thing. ...Stupid grin...


J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message
,
"bando?ers@gmail" writes:

If your time is short, don't read this, as most of it has been said/a
couple of posts crossed while I was composing this...
but I still want to put it all in perspective.

. It is good to hear from one for whom this particular discussion was
started (or at least the a.c.b-u 'group was added); we sighted folk can
argue what we think makes things harder or easier for you, but it is
always good to have input from someone who knows. ..

I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this,...

my mb10 in box was plenty big. Times have changed, but just because
we have something there is no reason to waste it./every packet we send
and receive is moved by electricitty which usually comes from some

. An interesting point. Whether the equipment uses more power when
communicating than when idling I don't know; I suspect that it does, but
the difference is minimal, and that there are a few circumstances where
it even uses less. Bt on the whole, it probably is more. ..

dirty origin. Don't know about the UK, but in the US many places are
short on band width, and the same is true here in southern Mexico.

. I suspect that the format of text emails and posts - i. e. whether
top, bottom, or interposted, and whether in plain text or other such as
HTML - makes very little difference to bandwidth shortages compared to
pictures, sound, and video. ..

Agreed. I was referring to the big picture, and mostly on the server
end. Don't think there would be any noticable savings of energy, and
little bandwidth when uploading, but when d-loading %80+ requoted
material, and god forbid multi-formats times many users..., but sure
it's not HD video.]

block quotetter that much to me, but please!
don't make me wade through five or ten lines of the same old muck just
to see your one-liner!

. Agreed! Certainly snip, and arguably if you're just posting a
one-liner, don't quote at all! Many news clients can be configured not
to quote. ..
[]
block quote
. It is the normal convention on usenet
to quote some of the posting to
which one is replying, so that anyone joining the thread can get some
idea of what you're on about.
block quote end
SOME is the opperant word here.
....

. We agree again. ..
I'd say "judicial snipping" should only leave the most important
facts

. We're singing from the same sheet! ..
[]
block quote
...how much to leave in
place for the benefit of newcomers is always a matter of personal
judgement, and there is no correct answer.
block quote end

Agreed, but I am opposed to always reverting to the lowest common
denominator,

. If by that, you mean leaving the whole of the original post in place,
especially if only adding one line especially if at the top, I agree
with you! ..

or the constant retelling of the same old story
that everyone has heard, just because one nube has come in to the

. However, if I detect someone genuinely is new to usenet (or to a
newsgroup that favours bottom-posting, and/or snipping and
interposting), I prefer to politely explain to them what is "local"
custom, rather than flame them. ..
Yes, that is partly what I ment; but I was also referring to "teaching
to the dumbist kid in the class", or posting for the laziest nube on
a group.
The good teacher teaches to the%50 in the middle of the learning curve/
I prefer to raise the bar a few points higher.
That being said, we all can miss the obvious, and flame wars waste a
lot of good band-width too.

[]
Yeppers, my whole point is that good usenet policy and polotic puts a
burden of claritty
on the poster, so some thoughtful quoting is helpful.

. Again we are in agreement! ..

So, please, people, this is a blind-users group! Let's keep the
clutter down!

. Well, it's now in five 'groups. I first came across it in
uk.tech.broadcast I think, though I am now reading it in the blind
'group. It might be worth stressing the point to posters in other
'groups what Burt says there - many blind folk "read" via speech output,
so quoting that hasn't been snipped very well - or not at all - wastes a
lot of time. I've tried to snip as much as possible (shown by "[]"),
while still leaving enough to make the context clear, but I'm still
aware that I've left rather a lot.

Burt Henry
[]
. Thanks again for giving us a real viewpoint from the other side, as it
were. ..
--
I think it is the same side: the side of thought which you are surely
on my man.
and here are somethings in reply to another part of this thread you
are on...
("my bit" refers to J.P.)
[snip]
my bit:
.. I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?
(AFAICT, Window-Eyes doesn't.) ..
[snip]

I use JAWS and NVDA at the moment, and there is no feature that I know
of that can be configured to change voice in response to quote level,
although I think it could be arranged in some future version.
(probably would only work with oe, as jfw and win-eyes are optimized
to and for the ms monster) ..
[snip]

quoting:

block quote
I feel that it is good etiquette to follow the pattern of the majority
in the group/list to which you are subscribing. Thus, it is probably
bad etiquette to post using interleaved quoting in a blindness related
email list where everyone else top posts for the same reason that it
block quote end


my bit:
.. I agree; the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five
that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..
[snip]
You got that right! Quiet is the norm, and interleaved posting not,
(if I recall correctly). I don't completely object to interleavers,
but more often it seems to be another lazy trait, instead of a tool
used to give greater claritty to a msg.
P.s.-Andrew, if you are reading this,how would you get jfw to change
voice for ""s, and could it be set to change more as the quote level
changes?(as with header levels, (which is pretty useless))?For me the
quote change might be a good one.
AH
Not here using JFW 10. The best it could probably do is either skip
out the lines beginning with or change the voice to something
different. This may end up being more annoying in the end though.
AH
Thanks,
Burt Henry
The only movement I believe in is in the morning after my coffee.

Howdy John, and to get the love fest out of the way at the beginning,
I have allways liked your posts, often learned something, and forget
that you are not blind as your insight and understanding of VI comp
related issues surpasses that of many blind users/maybe we should make
you an honorary blind-guy. Trust me, that would be better than the
real thing. ...Stupid grin...


J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message
,
"bando?ers@gmail" writes:

If your time is short, don't read this, as most of it has been said/a
couple of posts crossed while I was composing this...
but I still want to put it all in perspective.

. It is good to hear from one for whom this particular discussion was
started (or at least the a.c.b-u 'group was added); we sighted folk can
argue what we think makes things harder or easier for you, but it is
always good to have input from someone who knows. ..

I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this,...

my mb10 in box was plenty big. Times have changed, but just because
we have something there is no reason to waste it./every packet we send
and receive is moved by electricitty which usually comes from some

. An interesting point. Whether the equipment uses more power when
communicating than when idling I don't know; I suspect that it does, but
the difference is minimal, and that there are a few circumstances where
it even uses less. Bt on the whole, it probably is more. ..

dirty origin. Don't know about the UK, but in the US many places are
short on band width, and the same is true here in southern Mexico.

. I suspect that the format of text emails and posts - i. e. whether
top, bottom, or interposted, and whether in plain text or other such as
HTML - makes very little difference to bandwidth shortages compared to
pictures, sound, and video. ..

Agreed. I was referring to the big picture, and mostly on the server
end. Don't think there would be any noticable savings of energy, and
little bandwidth when uploading, but when d-loading %80+ requoted
material, and god forbid multi-formats times many users..., but sure
it's not HD video.]

block quotetter that much to me, but please!
don't make me wade through five or ten lines of the same old muck just
to see your one-liner!

. Agreed! Certainly snip, and arguably if you're just posting a
one-liner, don't quote at all! Many news clients can be configured not
to quote. ..
[]
block quote
. It is the normal convention on usenet
to quote some of the posting to
which one is replying, so that anyone joining the thread can get some
idea of what you're on about.
block quote end
SOME is the opperant word here.
....

. We agree again. ..
I'd say "judicial snipping" should only leave the most important
facts

. We're singing from the same sheet! ..
[]
block quote
...how much to leave in
place for the benefit of newcomers is always a matter of personal
judgement, and there is no correct answer.
block quote end

Agreed, but I am opposed to always reverting to the lowest common
denominator,

. If by that, you mean leaving the whole of the original post in place,
especially if only adding one line especially if at the top, I agree
with you! ..

or the constant retelling of the same old story
that everyone has heard, just because one nube has come in to the

. However, if I detect someone genuinely is new to usenet (or to a
newsgroup that favours bottom-posting, and/or snipping and
interposting), I prefer to politely explain to them what is "local"
custom, rather than flame them. ..
Yes, that is partly what I ment; but I was also referring to "teaching
to the dumbist kid in the class", or posting for the laziest nube on
a group.
The good teacher teaches to the%50 in the middle of the learning curve/
I prefer to raise the bar a few points higher.
That being said, we all can miss the obvious, and flame wars waste a
lot of good band-width too.

[]
Yeppers, my whole point is that good usenet policy and polotic puts a
burden of claritty
on the poster, so some thoughtful quoting is helpful.

. Again we are in agreement! ..

So, please, people, this is a blind-users group! Let's keep the
clutter down!

. Well, it's now in five 'groups. I first came across it in
uk.tech.broadcast I think, though I am now reading it in the blind
'group. It might be worth stressing the point to posters in other
'groups what Burt says there - many blind folk "read" via speech output,
so quoting that hasn't been snipped very well - or not at all - wastes a
lot of time. I've tried to snip as much as possible (shown by "[]"),
while still leaving enough to make the context clear, but I'm still
aware that I've left rather a lot.

Burt Henry
[]
. Thanks again for giving us a real viewpoint from the other side, as it
were. ..
--
I think it is the same side: the side of thought which you are surely
on my man.
and here are somethings in reply to another part of this thread you
are on...
("my bit" refers to J.P.)
[snip]
my bit:
.. I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?
(AFAICT, Window-Eyes doesn't.) ..
[snip]

I use JAWS and NVDA at the moment, and there is no feature that I know
of that can be configured to change voice in response to quote level,
although I think it could be arranged in some future version.
(probably would only work with oe, as jfw and win-eyes are optimized
to and for the ms monster) ..
[snip]

quoting:

block quote
I feel that it is good etiquette to follow the pattern of the majority
in the group/list to which you are subscribing. Thus, it is probably
bad etiquette to post using interleaved quoting in a blindness related
email list where everyone else top posts for the same reason that it
block quote end


my bit:
.. I agree; the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five
that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..
[snip]
You got that right! Quiet is the norm, and interleaved posting not,
(if I recall correctly). I don't completely object to interleavers,
but more often it seems to be another lazy trait, instead of a tool
used to give greater claritty to a msg.
P.s.-Andrew, if you are reading this,how would you get jfw to change
voice for ""s, and could it be set to change more as the quote level
changes?(as with header levels, (which is pretty useless))?For me the
quote change might be a good one.
AH
Not here using JFW 10. The best it could probably do is either skip
out the lines beginning with or change the voice to something
different. This may end up being more annoying in the end though.
AH
Thanks,
Burt Henry
The only movement I believe in is in the morning after my coffee.

bando?ers@gmail wrote:Twice...
My connect has been between bad and non-existent lately, so, I wanted
to get this up fast to use my band for something else/and got a
twitchy finger when FireFox told me it was resending. Sorry.

Burt

.... I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this,...

... dirty origin. Don't know about the UK, but in the US many places are
greed. ...I was referring to the big picture, and mostly on the server
end. Don't think there would be any noticable savings of energy, and
little bandwidth when uploading, but when d-loading %80+ requoted
material, and god forbid multi-formats times many users..., but sure
it's not HD video.]

my bit:
. I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?
(AFAICT, Window-Eyes doesn't.) ..
[snip]

I use JAWS and NVDA at the moment, and there is no feature that I know
of that can be configured to change voice in response to quote level,
although I think it could be arranged in some future version.
(probably would only work with oe, as jfw and win-eyes are optimized
to and for the ms monster) ..
[snip]

quoting:

P.s.-Andrew, if you are reading this,how would you get jfw to change
voice for ""s, and could it be set to change more as the quote level
changes?(as with header levels, (which is pretty useless))?For me the
quote change might be a good one.
AH
Not here using JFW 10. The best it could probably do is either skip
out the lines beginning with or change the voice to something
different. This may end up being more annoying in the end though.
AH
Thanks,
Burt Henry
The only movement I believe in is in the morning after my coffee.

bando?ers@gmail wrote:Twice...
My connect has been between bad and non-existent lately, so, I wanted
to get this up fast to use my band for something else/and got a
twitchy finger when FireFox told me it was resending. Sorry.

Burt

.... I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this,...

... dirty origin. Don't know about the UK, but in the US many places are
greed. ...I was referring to the big picture, and mostly on the server
end. Don't think there would be any noticable savings of energy, and
little bandwidth when uploading, but when d-loading %80+ requoted
material, and god forbid multi-formats times many users..., but sure
it's not HD video.]

my bit:
. I have seen suggestion that speech software might indicate who is
saying what by using a different voice (or at least pitch). Does any
such software (that anyone here is using, anyway) actually do that?
(AFAICT, Window-Eyes doesn't.) ..
[snip]

I use JAWS and NVDA at the moment, and there is no feature that I know
of that can be configured to change voice in response to quote level,
although I think it could be arranged in some future version.
(probably would only work with oe, as jfw and win-eyes are optimized
to and for the ms monster) ..
[snip]

quoting:

P.s.-Andrew, if you are reading this,how would you get jfw to change
voice for ""s, and could it be set to change more as the quote level
changes?(as with header levels, (which is pretty useless))?For me the
quote change might be a good one.
AH
Not here using JFW 10. The best it could probably do is either skip
out the lines beginning with or change the voice to something
different. This may end up being more annoying in the end though.
AH
Thanks,
Burt Henry
The only movement I believe in is in the morning after my coffee.

In message
,
"bando?ers@gmail" writes:
Howdy John, and to get the love fest out of the way at the beginning,
I have allways liked your posts, often learned something, and forget
that you are not blind as your insight and understanding of VI comp
related issues surpasses that of many blind users/maybe we should make
you an honorary blind-guy. Trust me, that would be better than the
real thing. ...Stupid grin...

.. Thanks, that of course makes me feel good. Much of the credit will be
due to the blind couple I have known since 197x, and whom I have helped
with computing matters since there was the Kenneth Kendall chip in the
BBC Micro and the only option was to have it spell out every word. ..
[]
I use JAWS and NVDA at the moment, and there is no feature that I know
of that can be configured to change voice in response to quote level,
although I think it could be arranged in some future version.
(probably would only work with oe, as jfw and win-eyes are optimized
to and for the ms monster) ..

.. Well the "monster" isn't as bad as everyone makes out, especially with
QuoteFix. Though it's not my first choice, I find it quite usable. ..
[]
. I agree; the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five
that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..
[snip]
You got that right! Quiet is the norm, and interleaved posting not,
(if I recall correctly). I don't completely object to interleavers,
but more often it seems to be another lazy trait, instead of a tool
used to give greater claritty to a msg.

.. I fear that I shall continue to interleave - but with, I hope,
judicious snipping. ..
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

age. fac ut gaudeam.

In message
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message
,
"bando?ers@gmail" writes:
Howdy John, and to get the love fest out of the way at the
beginning, I have allways liked your posts, often learned
something, and forget that you are not blind as your insight and
understanding of VI comp related issues surpasses that of many
blind users/maybe we should make you an honorary blind-guy.
Trust me, that would be better than the real thing. ...Stupid
grin...

. Thanks, that of course makes me feel good. Much of the credit
will be due to the blind couple I have known since 197x, and whom
I have helped with computing matters since there was the Kenneth
Kendall chip in the BBC Micro and the only option was to have it
spell out every word. .. []

That's interesting, I use a modern derivative of the BBC and I can
set the quoting threads to speak as it reads the mail even in
different dialects like, West Midlands, Lancashire and even a
Female voice can be chosen, so following convention is apparent
with this particular software if you choose the message to be
spoken as opposed to just being read.

Stephen.


--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce

On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:20:46 +0100, wrote:

That's interesting, I use a modern derivative of the BBC and I can
set the quoting threads to speak as it reads the mail even in
different dialects like, West Midlands, Lancashire and even a
Female voice can be chosen, so following convention is apparent
with this particular software if you choose the message to be
spoken as opposed to just being read.

I suspect the people who wrote that software care a grate deal more
about the subject they are righting for - i.e, Usenet access, than a
screen reader manufacturer trying to right software that will cope
with a lot of software that users throw at it.

I used the Arch until the mid nineties when I found I needed to have
more speech output in order to be more efficient with the computer -
i.e, to use them at School. Up until then I had made do with !Speech!
and !PepTalk and using a mode such as 27 (which was fairly low-res).
Come to think of it, I think I have the original disks for these
programs kicking around somewhere.

Andrew.

hHEY Nnow J.P. and group(s),

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message
,
"bando?ers@gmail" writes:
Howdy John, and to get the love fest out of the way at the beginning,
I have allways liked your posts, often learned something, and forget
that you are not blind as your insight and understanding of VI comp
related issues surpasses that of many blind users/maybe we should make
you an honorary blind-guy. Trust me, that would be better than the
real thing. ...Stupid grin...

. Thanks, that of course makes me feel good. Much of the credit will be
due to the blind couple I have known since 197x, and whom I have helped
with computing matters since there was the Kenneth Kendall chip in the
BBC Micro and the only option was to have it spell out every word. ..


Thanks for sharing your years of experience.
[]
I use JAWS and NVDA at the moment, and there is no feature that I know
of that can be configured to change voice in response to quote level,
although I think it could be arranged in some future version.
(probably would only work with oe, as jfw and win-eyes are optimized
to and for the ms monster) ..

. Well the "monster" isn't as bad as everyone makes out, especially with
QuoteFix. Though it's not my first choice, I find it quite usable. ..

I was referring to the whole msft picture/not just OE which I do not
even really know well at all.
[]
. I agree; the one blind 'group of the (rather strange set of) five
What are your suggestions for news group readers. I'd like to here
from any blind users on this too, but let's put it in a new thread
please!

that
this thread is posted to has been very quiet of late (until this
thread!), so I'm not sure what the norm was for it. ..
[snip]
You got that right! Quiet is the norm, and interleaved posting not,
(if I recall correctly). I don't completely object to interleavers,
but more often it seems to be another lazy trait, instead of a tool
used to give greater claritty to a msg.

. I fear that I shall continue to interleave - but with, I hope,
judicious snipping. ..

I have never had a prob understanding your posts, and as I have
said;interleave well and all is well, but if ye don't have the time to
take out the virtual scissors,TOPPOST!
Burt
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

age. fac ut gaudeam.