On Aug 31, 9:45*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
*It seems that in modern Britain, *whilst racism is almost a capital
offence, ageism is officially condoned.

Totally agree!. Don't they -ever- think that one day they'll be old to?..

You don't when you're in your twenties, and that's the root problem.

One of two roots. *The other is - why are people that age in charge of
the ad. campaign anyway?

'Cos they've already retired off all of the old duffers at the Beeb ?

HTH

Paul.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

If you have to scroll on an 800x600 page before the new stuff starts
there's too much quoting. ;-)

Exactly my opinion. I just skip anything upside down, or where the response
doesn't at least START on the screen.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.illifauthouse.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it much depends on whether you use Outlook Express etc. One of
the most annoying thing is when people quote whole streams from
thread, then at the very bottom say something like.. I agree.


Snipping is the word of the day. However from the posting side, because
OE top posts by default, and often you have in your mind what you want
to say, by the time you have done all the pasting about and snipping
you have forgotten what you wanted to bloody say in the first place!!

So what you're really saying is top posting would help your circumstances
(which I can understand) whereas you top post because of using crappy
software - but give your blindness as the excuse?

It's easy enough to change OE to work in the conventional manner - and
that shouldn't effect your use of it.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

It may well fix it for you, but all it does for me is screw up outlook
express and crash it more often than not.

Its still no answer to the snipping problem. far better to top post as if
you follow the thread there is no real need for quotes unless you are one of
those who suddenly looks at a thread weeks later when half the posts are
gone or your news server has the retention span of a goldfish.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"brightside S9" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:35:01 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

I think it much depends on whether you use Outlook Express etc.

Quotefix fixes OE

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software.../downloads.php

--
brightside S9

"Brian Gaff" gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

It may well fix it for you, but all it does for me is screw up outlook
express

See? It IS doing you a big favour.

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
It may well fix it for you, but all it does for me is screw up outlook
express and crash it more often than not.

Well why stick with OE when there are better and free newsreaders?

Its still no answer to the snipping problem. far better to top post as
if you follow the thread there is no real need for quotes unless you
are one of those who suddenly looks at a thread weeks later when half
the posts are gone or your news server has the retention span of a
goldfish.

So you're basically a top poster who uses his blindness as an excuse?

--
*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:47:41 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I am interested to know under what circumstances snipping is totally
not practical, rather than just requiring a little more effort.

The circumstances I was envisaging was for those who lacked the physical
abilities and perhaps enabling software which would allow them to do this
in a quick and easy manner compared to a fully abled user.

A computer user with eg no hands and merely voice recognition software would
I think find it perhaps too time consuming and frustrating to give speech
commands to edit a long message rather than just posting a summary without
quoting the previous article.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It's easy enough to change OE to work in the conventional manner - and
that shouldn't effect your use of it.

OE works in the correct manner.. sort of.
It puts the cursor at the top ready for you to start snipping.
Readers that put it at the bottom discourage snipping.

There used to be a problem with auto inserting sigs but I think that has
been fixed in WLM which is the updated version of OE.
OE has not been supported or fixed for ages.

--
sigs are a waste of space.

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
I'm disappointed in you Dave - we've had our technical disagreements
in the past, but this is beneath your character.

I've a feeling that Brian is perfectly capable for standing up for himself
and posted on that basis.

1) Why should anyone, who is already unfortunate enough to be
severely disadvantaged, be bullied (that is what this thread is
doing), into making life more difficult for themselves than already it
is?

Because it's my belief that Brian simply prefers top posting - regardless.
If he'd like to deny this, I'll apologise to him.

2) Blind or not, it easiest (and most stable) to use OE (and this
version of Agent for that matter) as it works by default.

That's simply not so.

This is how the vast majority of people start to use it, and, if they
were honest, probably would prefer to continue using it, if only
bottom-posting extremist fanatics would stop bombing usenet, and just
accept that it's everyone's democratic right to post as they please.

Perhaps you'd like to drive on the right of the road too - if it suits you?
Rules for a civilised society may not suit everyone - but most accept
rules make sense. A free for all benefits none.

--
*Is there another word for synonym?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It's easy enough to change OE to work in the conventional manner - and
that shouldn't effect your use of it.

OE works in the correct manner.. sort of.
It puts the cursor at the top ready for you to start snipping.
Readers that put it at the bottom discourage snipping.

There used to be a problem with auto inserting sigs but I think that has
been fixed in WLM which is the updated version of OE.
OE has not been supported or fixed for ages.


FFS. If someone has something interesting to say, they can side post for
all I care

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:18:47 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I've a feeling that Brian is perfectly capable for standing up for
himself and posted on that basis.

Because sensible people don't care, it's mostly only the job's worths,
that like dictating to others how to lead their lives, who complain
about this issue. The result is, regardless of how capable any one
person is of defending themselves, there is a ganging up of many
against one or a few, and the effect, however unintended it may be, is
that of bullying.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Because it's my belief that Brian simply prefers top posting -
regardless. If he'd like to deny this, I'll apologise to him.

What the f*ck is it to you that he does? It's a personal decision,
and no business of yours.

Then WTF is it to do with you? Some sort of Robin Hood, are you? Or does
it make you feel superior 'sticking up' for a blind man who is perfectly
capable of speaking for himself?

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , Java Jive
writes
Plonk!

On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 22:29:41 +0100, geoff wrote:

So let him put the words "blind ****" in his sig then

Another top posting plonker down ...

--
bumsnase

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
Brian's posting habits are nothing to do with me, but unfortunately I
read your public accusation of him, and was disgusted by it.

Accusation? Did I say he was a child molester or something?
Go and find something real to worry about.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:29:03 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Then WTF is it to do with you?

--
*It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It's easy enough to change OE to work in the conventional manner - and
that shouldn't effect your use of it.

OE works in the correct manner.. sort of.
It puts the cursor at the top ready for you to start snipping.

It does more than that. It creates an extra blank line at the top, implying
that you are expected to start typing there.

--
Max Demian

in 223194 20090903 173409 Java Jive wrote:

Unlike which side of the road to drive, posting style is NOT a matter
of life and death, so CAN SAFELY and SHOULD be left to personal
preference.

Get a life, for chrissake!

Well said. The top-posting police are the saddest *******s on usenet.

In message , "dennis@home"
writes:
[]
OE works in the correct manner.. sort of.
It puts the cursor at the top ready for you to start snipping.

.. That is it in a nutshell; however, most people, when first using it
(and other news and mail software that does that), don't realise that
that is the intention, and aren't told so either, so assume that
top-posting is what is intended. As many of us have said, the biggest
sin is excessive quoting (or inadequate snipping), not top-posting. .

Outlook (and Outlook Express) do spoil the claim, though, by inserting
the signature at the top too. (Yes, I know about QuoteFix. Which,
incidentally, gets very confused when replying to anything not in plain
text, at least the Outlook version does for me.) ..

Readers that put it at the bottom discourage snipping.

.. Agreed. ..

There used to be a problem with auto inserting sigs but I think that
has been fixed in WLM which is the updated version of OE.

.. Ah, so it's incorporated QuoteFix's solution then! Good. ..

OE has not been supported or fixed for ages.

.. Unfortunately it's still probably the most widely-used news and mail
software.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

Sarcasm: Barbed ire

In message , tony sayer
writes:
[]
May I ask how blind poster's shall we say, communicate is it they
magnify the screen up by a substantial amount or do they have a text to
speech device?..

.. By various means; those with some sight can use magnifiers, either
special hardware or that provided as part of some operating systems, or
third party addons (there are several free ones). They may also, and
those with no usable sight have to, use either speech synthesis and/or a
Braille readout, and software called a screen reader to navigate around
the screen. (The name screen reader is historical: such software
nowadays does much more. GUIs, with windows all over the screen and
often partly obscuring each other, do not make life easy.) Braille
readouts are very expensive (four figures), and are usually one
character high, by about 20, 40, or (expensive and bulky) 80 characters
wide: think about viewing your screen through such a slot! Those I know
who do have them tend to use speech most of the time, with the Braille
to check layout or the spelling of anything the speech gets wrong.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

Sarcasm: Barbed ire

In message , J G Miller
writes:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:47:41 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I am interested to know under what circumstances snipping is totally
not practical, rather than just requiring a little more effort.

The circumstances I was envisaging was for those who lacked the physical
abilities and perhaps enabling software which would allow them to do this
in a quick and easy manner compared to a fully abled user.

A computer user with eg no hands and merely voice recognition software would
I think find it perhaps too time consuming and frustrating to give speech
commands to edit a long message rather than just posting a summary without
quoting the previous article.

.. You make very good points there. I think under the circumstances you
describe, most things are permissible. Though, in my limited experience
of dealing with people with difficulties (mainly interacting with the
blind, but I did work with a chair-bound gentleman who had extremely
limited movement and even speech), such people do make attempts - often
more than the rest of us! - to fit in with the rest of us and how we do
things.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

Sarcasm: Barbed ire

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:
In article ,
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
If you have to scroll on an 800x600 page before the new stuff starts
there's too much quoting. ;-)

. I saw the smiley, but actually sounds a good rule of thumb! ..

It's actually how my newsreader does it - you'll get a warning of
excessive quoting if this isn't the case. But of course it's not a PC one.
;-)

.. I'd forgotten; I have seen such software, i. e. which assessed your
post and told you if the ratio of quoted to new text was too high (in
fact IIRR wouldn't let you post!), but haven't seen it for ages; I think
it's sadly rather rare nowadays.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

Sarcasm: Barbed ire

In article ,
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
It's actually how my newsreader does it - you'll get a warning of
excessive quoting if this isn't the case. But of course it's not a PC
one. ;-)

. I'd forgotten; I have seen such software, i. e. which assessed your
post and told you if the ratio of quoted to new text was too high (in
fact IIRR wouldn't let you post!), but haven't seen it for ages; I think
it's sadly rather rare nowadays.

It's why I stick to using the Acorn exclusively for news and email. Apart
from not having to worry about about viruses etc.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:32:57 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I have seen such software, i. e. which assessed your post and told you
if the ratio of quoted to new text was too high (in fact IIRR wouldn't
let you post!)

Pan warns you about top posting as well as excessive quoting.

It is even available for Windoze systems.

http://pan.rebelbase.COM/

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
This advice applies even more forcibly to yourself.

I'm not the one writing screeds about it.

But you carry on trying to re-invent the wheel. Instead of doing what the
vast majority on UK newsgroups realise is the sensible way.

[snip the non compliant sig, etc]

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember tony sayer
saying something like:

One great advantage of middle-aged hearing loss is the fortune I save on
not needing real HiFi

Poor you;(...

It's at an optimum point - M/A loss is inevitable so I live with it. I
can still enjoy good recordings and hate **** singers.

In article , Grimly
Curmudgeon scribeth thus
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember tony sayer
saying something like:

One great advantage of middle-aged hearing loss is the fortune I save on
not needing real HiFi

Poor you;(...

It's at an optimum point - M/A loss is inevitable so I live with it. I
can still enjoy good recordings and hate **** singers.

Well mine has been quite flat to 14.5 odd kHz with none of the usual 3
odd K dip but then again I didn't like sticking my head in the bins at
rock concerts.

And no I can't say I'm, fond of **** singers either;!..
--
Tony Sayer

Java Jive wrote:
This advice applies even more forcibly to yourself.

I think not J.J.
I've followed this discussion with mounting disbelief. Whether you like
it or not, just as in life there is etiquette on usenet there is
netiquette. That almost universally has come to mean:
1. Snipping comments not relevant to your reply. This is simple and easy
and doesn't require any skill or time.
2. Bottom posting. It is nonsense to give a reply before the question.
3. Interspersing the reply. Easy and best for the reader.
4. Not adding a sig. like yours which was longer than your post!! Sigs.
should be a maximum of four lines...

I wish all newsservers would use QED, the "quoting effusion detector"
developed by Steve Gibson for his groups :-)
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#QED

--
Harold

Harold wrote:
I've followed this discussion with mounting disbelief. Whether you like
it or not, just as in life there is etiquette on usenet there is
netiquette.

snip
This is defined by RFC1855

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt?number=1855

An RFC is a "request for comments"; some take this to mean it is just a
draft. it isn't. The entire internet is controlled by RFCs; this one
controls people, and for that reason is often ignored.

The most relevant paragraph is:

- If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context. This will make
sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!

You should all read it, and follow it; it's clear that many here do not.

Andy

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
It's at an optimum point - M/A loss is inevitable so I live with it. I
can still enjoy good recordings and hate **** singers.

Well mine has been quite flat to 14.5 odd kHz with none of the usual 3
odd K dip but then again I didn't like sticking my head in the bins at
rock concerts.

Mine is good to 14 kHz too - not bad considering my age. But I find
difficultly following a conversation in a noisy pub etc so my brain is
failing instead. ;-)

--
*Why isn't there a special name for the back of your knee?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
Go get a life of your own to lead, instead of wasting other people's
time telling them how to lead theirs.

I wish all newsservers would use QED, the "quoting effusion detector"
developed by Steve Gibson for his groups :-)
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#QED

That would amount to censorship.

Talk about hyping things out of all recognition.

But you've shown your true colours. You're obsessed with breaking long
established news group protocol - and even worst got all high and mighty
after my comments about Brian's style just to justify that obsession.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
It's at an optimum point - M/A loss is inevitable so I live with it. I
can still enjoy good recordings and hate **** singers.

Well mine has been quite flat to 14.5 odd kHz with none of the usual 3
odd K dip but then again I didn't like sticking my head in the bins at
rock concerts.

Mine is good to 14 kHz too - not bad considering my age. But I find
difficultly following a conversation in a noisy pub etc so my brain is
failing instead. ;-)

Comes to us all mate;!, still some beverages are better then others at
that. Won't believe what I did once in Yorkshire after a few pints of
Theakstons olds Peculier;!.. If thats how its spelt;!..
--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
One of the reasons it is widely ignored is that it's out of date.
Those instructions date largely from the time of a slow internet and
reading news using dumb terminals, where they made a lot of sense.

Now almost everyone has GUIs with navigation-style interfaces, and the
dumbest part of the terminal is those who insist on using an outdated
mode of posting that f*cks up modern software ...

You must positively love MS, then. Change purely for the sake of change
and to hell with compatibility - even with their own products.
Tell me just what has changed over the years in a simple text based
medium such as this? The answer is nothing. It was designed to be used on
the simplest of computers world wide on any OS - but of course that would
be a red rag to Gates.

If you dislike it so much, stick to forums.

--
*A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
If I'm obsessed, what does that make you?

Dave Plowman: 21 posts on my PC, 11 on this issue.
Java Jive: 29 posts on my PC, 9 on this issue.

And there would be none from me if others didn't waste everyone's time
by continually hi-jacking other people's threads to post on this
topic.

And even less if prats like you simply accepted what *the vast majority*
do is correct - even although you may not approve. When in Rome...

Whatever happened to "patronising digital advert"?

Crikey. You've not been hear long, then, if you think thread drift is
something new?

And if that's something else you dislike perhaps you should learn how to
start a new one - like say 'Top posting - was patronising digital advert'

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

yep.

Java Jive wrote:
xxxxxxxxx


Which is exactly the point. To read a short top-posted mail, I can
remain in the navigation pane and use the cursor keys to move to each
unread post, and immediately read its text in the text pane, but to
read a bottom-posted one, I have to click or tab across to the text
pane, scroll past history that I've read before, far too often just to
read a single bottom-posted line.

xxxxxxxx

On 05/09/2009 in message Java
Jive wrote:

Which is exactly the point. To read a short top-posted mail, I can
remain in the navigation pane and use the cursor keys to move to each
unread post, and immediately read its text in the text pane, but to
read a bottom-posted one, I have to click or tab across to the text
pane, scroll past history that I've read before, far too often just to
read a single bottom-posted line.

But you are using Agent, probably one of the best news readers around. The
space bar and the 'N' key are the quickest way to navigate posts surely?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks

On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:13:01 +0100, Java Jive wrote:

snip

Which is exactly the point. To read a short top-posted mail, I can
remain in the navigation pane and use the cursor keys to move to each
unread post, and immediately read its text in the text pane, but to
read a bottom-posted one, I have to click or tab across to the text
pane, scroll past history that I've read before, far too often just to
read a single bottom-posted line.

And therein lies the nub of the problem. Netiquette is all about showing
good manners to other people, not about what happens to make your life
easier because you happen to use one particular news client.



--
The Wanderer

Inertia keeps me going!

On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 13:13:02 +0100, The Wanderer wrote:


And therein lies the nub of the problem. Netiquette is all about showing
good manners to other people, not about what happens to make your life
easier because you happen to use one particular news client.

No, herein lies the rub. "Netiquette is all about showing good manners to other
people". You Sir, are sadly a dying breed.

On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 11:31:32 UTC, "Jeff Gaines"
wrote:

On 05/09/2009 in message Java
Jive wrote:

Which is exactly the point. To read a short top-posted mail, I can
remain in the navigation pane and use the cursor keys to move to each
unread post, and immediately read its text in the text pane, but to
read a bottom-posted one, I have to click or tab across to the text
pane, scroll past history that I've read before, far too often just to
read a single bottom-posted line.

But you are using Agent, probably one of the best news readers around. The
space bar and the 'N' key are the quickest way to navigate posts surely?

This makes his lack of a signature separator even more weird. Presumably
he is just unable to configure it correctly...?

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 10:18:19 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You must positively love MS, then.

Actually, I'm using Agent.

Change purely for the sake of change
and to hell with compatibility - even with their own products.

That is certainly true of MS, as I myself have often said so here, but
it's totally irrelevant here.

Its also untrue.
M$ change stuff for a reason.
You may not like the reason but it is always for a reason.

Tell me just what has changed over the years in a simple text based
medium such as this? The answer is nothing.

That is obviously and unarguably untrue.

That is also untrue.
While to the vast number of people that can manage with the rather limited
languages ASCII supports there are a lot that can't.
These need readers that can do more than a bit of ASCII text, hence the
continual development in readers.

As I pointed out in my post
above, the GUI has changed radically. The problem is that people
haven't adjusted their behaviour to suit.

It was designed to be used on
the simplest of computers world wide on any OS - but of course that would
be a red rag to Gates.

Ah! So now you're trying to move the goalposts and turn this into an
anti-Microsoft sub-thread, which I take to mean you've run out of
arguments, even unconvincing ones.

Nobody has a convincing argument about this.
HTML posts are much easier to read and to quote and are also plain text
(they don't use any special characters) but you will get a lot of flack from
the ones that don't like change if you use HTML.


Life is too short for this, it's easier just to plonk you.

That is the normal response when someone has no logical argument they can
win with.
That and abuse.

On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:34:52 +0100, Java Jive
wrote:

Exactly, and that applies to EVERYONE. So why don't you and others
stop wasting everyone's time complaining about top-posting?
However much I may wish that people wouldn't bottom post,

Are you starting reading from the bottom and end at the top?
I don't.

Don't top post.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
But you are using Agent, probably one of the best news readers around. The
space bar and the 'N' key are the quickest way to navigate posts surely?

This makes his lack of a signature separator even more weird. Presumably
he is just unable to configure it correctly...?

More likely just being a cnut.

--
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:37:47 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
But you are using Agent, probably one of the best news readers around. The
space bar and the 'N' key are the quickest way to navigate posts surely?

This makes his lack of a signature separator even more weird. Presumably
he is just unable to configure it correctly...?

More likely just being a cnut.

I was being kind, and assuming he was just thick and stupid!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com