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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#281
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Gunner wrote:
snip Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other aircraft, any of which could have killed him).. http://www.danford.net/bushf102.htm as the author said in his last paragraph.... "If I were judging Bush on his career as an Air Force officer, I would be inclined to grade him much as his Yale professors did, with a "gentleman's C" (which in this era of grade inflation would translate to a B-plus). I can't of course judge him as a pilot, except to doff the virtual hat to anyone who could handle a supersonic aircraft without killing himself or a bystander." Please try to seperate your anti-Bush sentiments from the facts, ok? Btw..what aircraft do you have time in? Gunner Here's another view of George W. as a pilot. His flying skills seem to somewhat limited, as has been my experience with low-time military pilots. He learned the numbers and procedures for the F102 (and apparently took a while to do so) and not much else. http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm Dale Scroggins Who has quite a few more hours turbine time than GW does. And I can certainly fly a C-172! (Or anything else with wings or a rotor). |
#282
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Bray Haven says...
Who's this "Rove" guy?? Ah, nobody. Just another disgusting political hack, an opportunist. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#283
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On 9 Feb 2004 14:03:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gunner says... Which restrictions and which Supreme Court? The court, as an institution. Over the years it has been pretty clear that reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on things like free exercise, or free speech, have been endorsed many many times. At one time the various Supreme Courts held slavery was legal as well as Poll Taxes, etc. Free speech is not an absolute right. Nor, apparently is weapons ownership. Free speech IS an absolute right. You just have to be careful about how you exercise it. No screaming fire in a crowded theater without a fire, no shooting the place up without a damned good reason. This is one of the problems of claiming equal treatment between the first and second amemendment - sure the court does place limits and restrictions on the first. So it makes sense that they should do the same, to the second as well. Pretty much depends on what those "restrictions" are, doesnt it? Or is your position that the second amendment is somehow more important than the first, and therefor should be exempt from any interpretation at all? If that's the case, I *do* claim equal treatment between the two, because the first thing in the morning I'm starting the Dali Jim Llama Church of Metalworking and filing for tax exempt status. My religion prohibits paying taxes, of course! Jim Go for it. Its your right. Just make sure you get all your papers filed and dot yur i's and all that good stuff because if you dont, large burley men with guns will be visiting you. I strongly suggest fireproof construction techniques and maybe some tank traps Gunner ================================================= = please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================= = "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#284
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On 9 Feb 2004 13:55:30 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gunner says... And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN? Yep, 'if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a tea-cart.' Which is another way of saying the obvious in this case, which is gwb's dad bought him a slot in that outfit so he wouldn't *have* to go overseas. If that problem cropped up again, dad would fix it up some other way, the same way he did it the first time, with an application of money or influence. Are you positive? Seems Dad was something of a hawk, also a pilot if you remember. To be honest..if I had the opportunity to keep my kid out of RVN, Id have done it also, even though I volunteered to go. Honestly I'm suprised at your naive viewpoint here on this issue gunner. There's absolutely no reason in the world that rich folks shouldn't be allowed to spend their hard inherited money any way they want! And that includes buying their son out of combat. This country has a long histroy of this sort of thing - look back at the civil war, all one had to do is 'hire' a substitute to get out of the draft. Jim When you can PROVE that Bush bought his way out of combat, we will discuss the issue. So far you are making your claims on guesses. Probably true..but innocent until proven guilty. Dig out your proof, and we can discuss the issues. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#285
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Gunner says...
When you can PROVE that Bush bought his way out of combat, we will discuss the issue. So far you are making your claims on guesses. Probably true..but innocent until proven guilty. Nope, new Karl Rove Rules: guilty guilty guilty of whatever I say he's guilty of. Slander till ya drop. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#286
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Gunner says...
Free speech IS an absolute right. You just have to be careful about how you exercise it. This is a contradiction in terms. It cannot be 'absolute' if there are caveats about how it can be employed. And there are - don't trust me on the issue, check with the 9. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#287
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Gunner wrote:
On 9 Feb 2004 05:41:10 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , Gunner says... GW strapped on a supersonic aircraft which could have killed him in an instant. Too bad he never learned to fly those when he was in his former training. This was a great photo op, but to suggest that he was anything other than along for the ride is to disparage the real pilot who flew him. That man had the guts to actually take advantage of the training given him by the air force, and not just hide away until the smoke cleared in Vietnam. You could strap GWB onto a space shuttle, that don't make him an astronaut. Jim Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other aircraft, any of which could have killed him).. http://www.danford.net/bushf102.htm as the author said in his last paragraph.... "If I were judging Bush on his career as an Air Force officer, I would be inclined to grade him much as his Yale professors did, with a "gentleman's C" (which in this era of grade inflation would translate to a B-plus). I can't of course judge him as a pilot, except to doff the virtual hat to anyone who could handle a supersonic aircraft without killing himself or a bystander." Please try to seperate your anti-Bush sentiments from the facts, ok? Btw..what aircraft do you have time in? Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas Snicker : C-47 - or was that a 07 :-) Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
#288
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Bray Haven says... Yep Slick Willy was a genuine draft dodger. Kerry would have done what Dubya did if he's had the intelligence to do it. Let me get this straight, you say that: 1) clinton was a draft dodger and that was wrong. 2) W was a draft dodger and it was right, and smart. 3) Kerry served his country overseas, and that makes him stupid and unfit to run for president. Doesn't make sense to me. Do you really expect a man who raises asses to make sense? ;-) Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#289
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Gunner wrote:
Please try to seperate your anti-Bush sentiments from the facts, ok? This from a man who wrote: "Clinton went to Europe to do dope, and rape young English girls." Who is having trouble seperating sentiment from facts? Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#290
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Gunner wrote:
And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN? As many in the Guard found out in Iraq, belonging to the Guard, or the military in general doesnt give you a pass from being put in harms way. Uhm, Gunner, are you asleep at your desk again, time for the dunce cap again? You have not been paying attention. Apparently history tells us, that belonging to the Guard in the late 60"s was a way to be ASSURED NOT to be sent to Vietnam. Ive not doubt Dubya would have bitched and screamed and ****ed and moaned (like 99% of every troop) when learning he had to go get shot at..and then gone and done it just like the other 99.99% That's the beaty about you Gunner. You have no doubt. For you, life is only certainty, with all the answers crystal clear. I understand that for you it has to be, otherwise your existance would be just unbearable. I am beginning to pity you. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#291
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Bray Haven wrote:
I'd vote for Saddam before I'd vote for John Kerry. The scary part is, that this is most likely true. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#292
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Bray Haven wrote:
No, kerry isn't a dodger he's just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment ... Whoa, I thought for a moment you were talking about Rove there. Jim Who's this "Rove" guy?? Is he running for something? You guys are pretty desperate for someone to trash. ) Greg Sefton Hmm, Why am I not surprised that you don't know who Karl Rove is? I suggest you do a little more reading now and then, instead of "educating " yourself during the nightly "news" on Fox TV. You know, newspapers, books and the like, although maybe a bit more than you will be able to handle since most of what you can absorb seems to be sound bites. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#293
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Gunner wrote:
On 7 Feb 2004 08:39:51 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , Dale Scroggins says... Both the Republicans and Democrats should be careful what they wish for this election cycle. While the economy will most likely improve enough this summer to help Bush's reelection chances, we could witness some truly interesting times within the next decade. How 'bout this for a possibility: Bush is reelected by a narrow margin, has a truly disastrous second term on many fronts, resulting in the near-destruction of the Republican party for a generation. Interesting. I always wondered if the contest between gore and GWB was broked in the back room. Ie, the democrats said, 'no thanks, we don't want this one. You folks go on up ahead and take the point.' I think if I knew that your theory was correct, I would vote for bush in november. Jim Chuckle..the political pendulum has been swinging to the Right for about 8 yrs. It has been Left for about 40 or so.. The Republican party is stronger today than it has been in over 40 yrs, and there is no danger of it crashing down anytime soon. Its replacement someday in the future will be a more libertarian one. The Democratic party on the other hand..is in shambles. The rats are deserting the sinking ship and the far left wing extremists that have decided to go down with the ship are alienating even the few folks that might have considered trying to bail the bilge. 9 candidates for president? And each and everyone trying to cut the throat of the other guy.. indeed..there is some party cohesiveness? Notice that only the extreme Lefties are given DNC support? Edwards and Lieberman were too moderate and look what happened to them..hung out to dry. Frankly.. the Dems are now a party of leftwing extremists..their membership simply has either not gotten the hint yet, or are trying to ignore it out of party loyalty. Shrug. The country as a whole is far more conservative now than it was even 10 yrs ago. Hell thats one of the reasons Bush is getting so much flack from most everyone, as he is not the Conservative he campaigned to be. Bush is a moderate, and is pandering to both the moderates and the mainstream Dems. This is the one reason a hell of a lot of us on the Right are not happy campers with him. He is too moderate. The Lefties would hate his guts, no matter what, even if he sung the Internatiale and changed his stripes to Socialist, so their opinions are of no value. This will indeed be an interesting year. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas You're really scary when you're right. This is indeed going to be some election year. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#294
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
mikee wrote:
Boy! Talk about a bunch of conspiracy theorists! We've already got Osama and are just holding him till close to election day so we (Bush) can get great press??..... I wouldn't put it past them. Not that the Democrats wouldn't pull such a stunt if they could. These days anything is possible, anything goes in the name of (re)elections. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#295
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:19:12 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On 9 Feb 2004 12:43:39 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , Gunner says... Ah Jim...Dubya WAS an F-102 pilot ... Tough to get shot at, in texas. Jim And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN? Lots of Bear bombers over RVN were there? The F-102 was designed and tasked to intercept Soviet intercontinental nuclear bombers. It wasn't much good for anything else. It had no strike capability, and was probably the world's worst dogfighter. Some of them were used in Vietnam early on in the escort role (for which they were very ill suited), 15 were lost. But they'd been withdrawn from service over VN by the time Bush joined the Air Guard. They were designed to run down bombers entering our airspace, not for penetrating what was then the world's most intense air defense network. The primary operational task of Bush's air guard unit was to intercept Soviet Bear bombers staging out of Cuba. They intercepted them and escorted them away from our airspace. (The Soviets routinely probed our air defenses that way in those days.) That was a valid military mission, no less so than the guys in the heavy tank squadrons positioned eyeball to eyeball with the Soviets in northern Germany. But neither weapons system, nor their crews, could be of much use in Vietnam. Gary |
#296
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On 9 Feb 2004 20:32:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gunner says... Free speech IS an absolute right. You just have to be careful about how you exercise it. This is a contradiction in terms. It cannot be 'absolute' if there are caveats about how it can be employed. And there are - don't trust me on the issue, check with the 9. Jim Every freedom has its responsibilities. You are more than free to shout fire. However if a riot ensues, and people are hurt, you will not be charged with screaming fire, but for creating a riot, disturbing the peace, etc. You will not be charged with a speech crime. If you stand in the middle of the street, or a public park, and scream Fire...no one will give a ****, though most will think you are a loon. The recent case where some activist was arrested and convicted of posting bomb making information on his web site is of great concern for many people. That is pure censorship, and a limitation on free speech. Don't you think so? Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#297
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:46:17 GMT, Abrasha wrote:
Gunner wrote: And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN? As many in the Guard found out in Iraq, belonging to the Guard, or the military in general doesnt give you a pass from being put in harms way. Uhm, Gunner, are you asleep at your desk again, time for the dunce cap again? You have not been paying attention. Apparently history tells us, that belonging to the Guard in the late 60"s was a way to be ASSURED NOT to be sent to Vietnam. Ive not doubt Dubya would have bitched and screamed and ****ed and moaned (like 99% of every troop) when learning he had to go get shot at..and then gone and done it just like the other 99.99% That's the beaty about you Gunner. You have no doubt. For you, life is only certainty, with all the answers crystal clear. I understand that for you it has to be, otherwise your existance would be just unbearable. I am beginning to pity you. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com Hummm Oddly enough..I recall 1968 was the year Johnson mobilized all the Guard units. Wasnt that the year Bush joined up? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...y/usaf/ang.htm "Driven by the Kennedy administration's adoption of the "flexible response" strategy and the large American military buildup during the 1960s, the Air Guard continued to modernize and diversify its aircraft inventory. It had entered the tanker business in FY 1962 with the acquisition of KC-97s. In 1963, Air Guard tactical flying units began to routinely deploy outside the continental United States on their annual active duty training tours for the first time. The ANG's total aircraft inventory shrank from 2,269 in 1960 to 1,425 by 1965. Following the end of active American military involvement in the Vietnam War in 1973, there was a substantial reduction in the active duty Air Force enabling the ANG to acquire another infusion of modern aircraft and equipment. These included A-7s, A-10As, F-105s, OA-37s and some brand new C-130Hs. But, its principal fighter aircraft such as F-4s had logged many flying hours including combat operations in Vietnam before they came to the Guard. The Air Guard's personnel strength stood at over 90,300 by the end of FY 1973 when active American military involvement in the Vietnam War ended. The Vietnam War illustrated a central paradox facing the USAF's reserve components. In January 1968, President Johnson mobilized naval and air reservists following the North Korean seizure of the USS Pueblo. More reservists were called into federal service following the February 1968 Tet offensive in Vietnam. Altogether, approximately 10,600 Air Guardsmen were called into federal service in 1968. Although most of the reservists were used to strengthen America's depleted strategic reserve force, four ANG fighter squadrons were dispatched to Vietnam. In January 1968, President Johnson mobilized naval and air reservists following the North Korean seizure of the USS Pueblo. More reservists were called into federal service following the February 1968 Tet offensive in Vietnam. Altogether, approximately 10,600 Air Guardsmen were called into federal service in 1968. Although most of the reservists were used to strengthen America's depleted strategic reserve force, four ANG fighter squadrons were dispatched to Vietnam. " Joining the Air National Guard, at the time the Air National Guard was being sent to Nam..sounds like a cowards way to me. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#298
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:53:40 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote: Gunner wrote: snip Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other aircraft, any of which could have killed him).. http://www.danford.net/bushf102.htm as the author said in his last paragraph.... "If I were judging Bush on his career as an Air Force officer, I would be inclined to grade him much as his Yale professors did, with a "gentleman's C" (which in this era of grade inflation would translate to a B-plus). I can't of course judge him as a pilot, except to doff the virtual hat to anyone who could handle a supersonic aircraft without killing himself or a bystander." Please try to seperate your anti-Bush sentiments from the facts, ok? Btw..what aircraft do you have time in? Gunner Here's another view of George W. as a pilot. His flying skills seem to somewhat limited, as has been my experience with low-time military pilots. He learned the numbers and procedures for the F102 (and apparently took a while to do so) and not much else. http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm Dale Scroggins Who has quite a few more hours turbine time than GW does. And I can certainly fly a C-172! (Or anything else with wings or a rotor). From another newsgroup: " Jeff old buddy, let's throw some facts up on the wall. 1st Fact. There were two Air National Guard Fighter Squadrons in Texas. The 111th and the 182nd. Both of them flew F102's. The 111th based out of Ellington ANGS and the 182nd based out of Kelly Filed There were no Air National Guard Fighter Interceptor Squadrons in Alabama at that time. The 111th flew 102's from 1960 to 1975 when it transition to F101B's The 182nd flew F102's out of Kelly Field in Dallas until 1969 and then transitions to F-84F (and became tactical fighter squadron). As George Bush was rated in F102's only he must have flown with the 111 out of Ellington. In 1975 the F102 was with drawn from the inventory in the Con US. One squadron remained active until 1977 in Hawaii. Fact #2 George W. Bush graduated from Yale University in 1968 and Joined the Texas Air National Guard when he learned that his student deferment was going to be up. On May 28, 1968 G. W Bush enlists as a airman basic with the 147 Fighter Interceptor Group at Ellington Air Force base Houston Texas. July 12, 1968 A three officer panel determined that G.W. Bush is to be commissioned as a 2nd Lt. upon completion of his basic training (DC) July 14, 1968 G.W. Bush begins 6 week Air Force Basic Training at Lackland Air Force Base.. September 4, 1968 G.W. Bush is commissioned a 2nd Lt and assigned to the 111th fighter Squadron of the 147th Fighter Group with the Texas Air National Guard. At this point he has a break in service as the next available flight school slot doesn't begin at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia until November. As a officer trainee this is probable as he had nothing to do at the squadron during drills. September-October 1968 G.W. Bush worked on Senate Campaign in Florida but did return occasionally to Houston to attend weekend Guard Meetings at Ellington November 25, 1968 Bush attends and graduates from flight school assigned to the 3550 Student Squadron at Moody Air Force Base Georgia (53 weeks) Graduates Nov 25 1969 May 26, 1969 G.W. Bush's 201 file credited him with 226 days service as an officer and 95 days of Enlisted service (total service from May 68 to May 69 321 days service which adds up to total obligated service i.e. he did not miss any drills. ) March 1970 Bush received his pilots wings. and by May 20 had served 313 days as and officer and had 95 days of enlisted service for a total of 408 days of service. On January 1, 1970 147 changes status from doing Air Defense Alerts to training F102 pilots. December 1969 to June 27 G.W. Bush trains full-time to be a F-102 pilot at Ellington Air Force Base June 23 1970 G.W. Bush Graduates Combat Crew Training School with a cumulative total of 21 months in Uniform. June 1970 G.W. Bush volunteered for (Palace Alert program) for 6 months active duty service in Europe or Viet Nam but was turned down because Air Force had with drawn F102's from Service in Asia and Europe. November 7, 1970 George Bush promoted to 1st Lt. May 71 G.W. Bush's 201 file shows he had served 43 additional days as 2nd lt and 3 days of 1st lt. (Total time in service 408 + 43 + 3 = 455 days active duty) May 26 1972 G.W. Bush served only 22 days of active service in his forth year which leaves 4 days short of a full year. It is possible that he received some excused absences. August 1972 G.W. Bush was Grounded because of missing Flight physical. May 1973 Next fitness report noted that G.W. Bush cleared this base and has been performing equivalent training in a not flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly Ang Base in Alabama May 1973 G.W. Bush took las physical as a crew member on flight status so he wasn't grounded in his last year of active service. There are records that show that G.W. Bush logged 36 days of additional duty from May of 1973 to July 1973. These days made up the 4 days missed drill of 1973 as well as put 32 days in the bank so to speak for 1973. (Total service from May 68 to July 73 (408 + 43 + 3 + 22 + 36 = 512 days) Total obligation in National Guard is 38 days per year. 38 days time 6 years = 228 days plus pilot training 53 weeks at 5 days per week satisfied his oblation for service. Bottom line George Bush found him self in obsolete aircraft that was being with drawn from service while he was in the national guard and there was no opportunity for him to serve over seas. Second is that because George Bush had more than enough days to satisfy his National Guard obligation he received a Honorable discharge even though he did miss many days that he made up at the end of his term of service. The only question is were the missing days excused absences or did he just not show up. I suspect that they were excused absences by as the excused drills are at unit level only. At the end of his national guard service was G.W. Bush a sterling officer. I would say no but did he do any thing that was against the rules. NO. The Independent" ***************************************** http://www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm "Updated: There's a story about Bush's renting a Cessna and taking some of his youngsters flying at some point in the winter of 1972-73. As it's told on anti-Bush websites, his handling of the aircraft was so erratic as to cast doubt that he'd ever qualified as a pilot. This rather overlooks the fact that it's impossible to rent an aircraft for a solo flight without at least having a student certicate and current medical, and very rare to rent one without actually being checked out in person by a flight instructor. " ************************************************* Im pleased you have turbine time. How long have you been governor of a major state and president of the United States? Gunner, with a small amount of stick time in 206Bs, UH-12s, 47Gs, UH-1Ds & Gs, AH-1Js, OH-13s "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#299
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:41:01 GMT, Abrasha wrote:
Gunner wrote: Please try to seperate your anti-Bush sentiments from the facts, ok? This from a man who wrote: "Clinton went to Europe to do dope, and rape young English girls." Who is having trouble seperating sentiment from facts? Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com It was fact. http://chblue.com/Feb1999/022099/clintonrape022099.htm However..maybe he didnt inhale. Course.. it was Clinton's brother Roger (thee convicted drug dealer) who was captured on video tape during a drug sting saying his brother "... had a nose like a Hoover." So maybe he did inhale. I wonder if thats why he refused to release his medical records? I understand overuse of cocaine causes the septum to blow out and need medical repair..... Shrug..old history now. But interesting how you defended him at the time. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#300
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:54:23 GMT, Abrasha wrote:
Bray Haven wrote: No, kerry isn't a dodger he's just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment ... Whoa, I thought for a moment you were talking about Rove there. Jim Who's this "Rove" guy?? Is he running for something? You guys are pretty desperate for someone to trash. ) Greg Sefton Hmm, Why am I not surprised that you don't know who Karl Rove is? I suggest you do a little more reading now and then, instead of "educating " yourself during the nightly "news" on Fox TV. You know, newspapers, books and the like, although maybe a bit more than you will be able to handle since most of what you can absorb seems to be sound bites. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com Ill bet James Carvel told you to say that huh.... Snicker Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#301
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:29:38 GMT, Abrasha wrote:
jim rozen wrote: In article , Bray Haven says... Yep Slick Willy was a genuine draft dodger. Kerry would have done what Dubya did if he's had the intelligence to do it. Let me get this straight, you say that: 1) clinton was a draft dodger and that was wrong. 2) W was a draft dodger and it was right, and smart. 3) Kerry served his country overseas, and that makes him stupid and unfit to run for president. Doesn't make sense to me. Do you really expect a man who raises asses to make sense? ;-) Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com About like the above post from an ass makes sense. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
#302
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
(Dan Caster) wrote in message om...
(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message Seems like the his IQ is thought to be about 120 - 125. About 15% of te US population is brighter by far. He'd never make it into Mensa. So this means he is brighter than 85% of the Democrats that say he is stupid? "THE War President"? He mantioned his wars what, 56 times in half an hour? No wars, no glory? Have to worry about foreign & domestic affairs instead of vacations (IIRC he's taken the most days off of any president) and fundraising? Wars you just turn over to the military .... From http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature...eak/index.html [ .... George W. Bush's unplugged performance with Tim Russert on Sunday offered hope for even the dumbest of men: You too can become president of the United States. Yet Bush's apparent inanity conceals his immense talent as a political speaker. If one applies the principles of duckspeak to Bush's performance, he is a doubleplusgood doublethinker. Duckspeak, of course, is the language celebrated in George Orwell's "1984." Characterized by mindless invocation and the repetition of slogans, it was the highest form of speech in Orwell's nightmare demolition of the English language, Newspeak ] ......... ......... Tim Russert: [ The night you took the country to war, March 17th, you said this: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised ... How do you respond to critics who say that you brought the nation to war under false pretenses? ] George W. Bush: [ Quack weapons quack war against terror quack we were attacked quack every threat quack every threat quack every potential harm to America quack war on terror quack weapons quack suicide bombers quack funding terrorist groups quack dangerous man quack stockpiles of weapons quack capacity to produce weapons quack weapons quack capacity to make weapons quack Saddam Hussein quack dangerous with weapons quack Saddam Hussein quack dangerous with the ability to make weapons quack dangerous man quack dangerous quack a madman quack imminent quack imminent quack new kind of war quack no doubt in my mind quack Saddam Hussein quack danger to America. ] ..................... -- Cliff |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Tough to get shot at, in texas.
Jim Oh yeah, Paint a sign on your car saying "I'm a gay yankee here to take your guns" and drive across the state ). (or maybe just "Kerry for Prez") greg sefton |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Gunner says...
Hummm Oddly enough..I recall 1968 was the year Johnson mobilized all the Guard units. Wasnt that the year Bush joined up? Ah I misses that. He served in combat overseas? Silly me. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Do you really expect a man who raises asses to make sense? ;-)
Abrasha Better to raise them than make one of yourself ). Greg Sefton |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Carl Rove is the Dubya's political adviser
Ahh,Glenn, the great Satan for the left wing, who's ammo against the Prez is being systematically taken from them. It's entertaining, watching what they will invent next to baffle the voters ). Greg Sefton |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Hmm,
Why am I not surprised that you don't know who Karl Rove is? Abasha, why am I not surprised that you missed the whole point.. duh. Greg S. |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Gunner says...
Every freedom has its responsibilities. You are more than free to shout fire. However if a riot ensues, and people are hurt, you will not be charged with screaming fire, but for creating a riot, disturbing the peace, etc. You will not be charged with a speech crime. But those responsibilities are determined ultimately by the courts. If one publishes defamatory information about an individual, the charge is indeed a 'speech crime.' Then the person can sue, and the courts will decide if the speech was actionable or not. Here is a question of one person's rights being ballanced against another persons speech rights. If, for example, the person being defamed is a public person or better yet a politician, then it's almost impossible to prove libel. Likewise if the information published is *true* then that makes almost it impossible to show libel. But this is one example of time place and manner restrictions. If one were to publish something that one *knows* is false about some average shmoe, then the courts are more likely to say, that speech should be restricted, the publisher is guilty of libel. The recent case where some activist was arrested and convicted of posting bomb making information on his web site is of great concern for many people. That is pure censorship, and a limitation on free speech. So this will go to the courts, right? The question is, does the government's need to keep information secret outweigh the bad effects of *prior* *restraint*. That is, the banning of a publication before it even happens, because the ideas in it are so dangerous. This is typically not how the courts have ruled in the past. Typically they have made the distinction between the information about some item or device that is dangerous, and the actual *use* of that thing to cause harm. So in the past, prior restraint was a no-no. In the present environment however, they might well padlock the progressive, jail the editors, and create an fbi file on anyone who has a subscription. I guess my point here is, if the courts have to get this deep into the application of something as straightforward as the first amendment, they're going certainly not going to look at the second and say, 'whatever you want, help yourself.' One of the things that *does* trouble me is how speech cases seem to rapidly resolve based on these issues, but firearm cases seem to all hinge on state laws, because that's mostly how ownership is regulated. So the state courts can adjudicate based on their own laws and it pretty much stops there. If I were you, I would not so much be concerned about the fact that firearms *are* regulated, but rather the manner in which the state/federal balance is done. If there's an amendment about it, why isn't there more federal law concerning firearm ownership, that effectively trumps state law? Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Bray Haven says...
Tough to get shot at, in texas. Oh yeah, Paint a sign on your car saying "I'm a gay yankee here to take your guns" I *meant* in an *airplane*! Though, seems like folks who do what you suggest tend to get tied to trucks and dragged. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
"Gunner" wrote in message
... Although most of the reservists were used to strengthen America's depleted strategic reserve force, four ANG fighter squadrons were dispatched to Vietnam. " Joining the Air National Guard, at the time the Air National Guard was being sent to Nam..sounds like a cowards way to me. Oh, get real. Four squadrons sent to Vietnam? I'll take those odds. That's the definition of a good dodge. As you probably know if you were really awake at the time, and if you weren't spending too much time with the bong, practically everyone who joined the ANG in those years did so to reduce their chances of fighting in 'Nam to near zero, while still putting in their time. That was the whole point. Don't you know that? Ed Huntress |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
jim rozen wrote:
"Tough to get shot at, in texas." Oh yeah, Paint a sign on your car saying "I'm a gay yankee here to take your guns" I *meant* in an *airplane*! Though, seems like folks who do what you suggest tend to get tied to trucks and dragged. It wasn't a gay yankee who got dragged to death in Vidor, it was a black man whose family has been in Texas for generations. -- Tom Stovall, CJF Farrier & Blacksmith http://www.katyforge.com "That government governs best that governs least." -Thomas Jefferson |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
Bray Haven wrote: Carl Rove is the Dubya's political adviser Ahh,Glenn, the great Satan for the left wing, who's ammo against the Prez is being systematically taken from them. It's entertaining, watching what they will invent next to baffle the voters ). Greg Sefton Talk about pots and kettles! You just need to know a little about Rove's history. It has been well established that we is one nasty character. The Prince of Darkness and undisputed master of political dirty tricks. His first dirty trick, which he is happy to brag about, was in Illinois in 1970. Gaining entry into the office of Alan Dixon, a Democrat running for state treasurer, Rove stole campaign stationery and printed false invitations to Dixon’s campaign headquarters, promising “free beer, free food, girls, and a good time.” They were distributed in places such as homeless shelters. It has been down hill from there. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article B17Wb.44271$u_6.24886@lakeread04, Glenn Ashmore says...
His first dirty trick, which he is happy to brag about, was in Illinois in 1970. Gaining entry into the office of Alan Dixon, a Democrat running for state treasurer, Rove stole campaign stationery and printed false invitations to Dixon’s campaign headquarters, promising “free beer, free food, girls, and a good time.” They were distributed in places such as homeless shelters. Ha ha, that's great. I bet Kerry's guy is going to take a chapter from his book. This will be a great race. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
In article , Tom Stovall says...
It wasn't a gay yankee who got dragged to death in Vidor, it was a black man whose family has been in Texas for generations. No wait, there *was* a gay guy who got lynched there someplace. Tied to a fencepost and beaten? I thought that was texas. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
I have met too many of them. A while back, before Christmas, I was
standing in line at the post office. A woman wanted some colorful stamps and the clerk gave here some with Ceasar Chavez on them. She wondered who he was, and later went on and on about how stupid G.W. Bush is. Dan "Ed Huntress" wrote in message But how do you know that the Democrats who say he's stupid aren't the same ones who are smarter than he is? g Ed Huntress |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
"Dan Caster" wrote in message
m... I have met too many of them. A while back, before Christmas, I was standing in line at the post office. A woman wanted some colorful stamps and the clerk gave here some with Ceasar Chavez on them. She wondered who he was, and later went on and on about how stupid G.W. Bush is. Dan You're kidding, aren't you? They have Caesar Chavez's face on a postage stamp?? Ed Huntress |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On 10 Feb 2004 04:53:33 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gunner says... Hummm Oddly enough..I recall 1968 was the year Johnson mobilized all the Guard units. Wasnt that the year Bush joined up? Ah I misses that. He served in combat overseas? Silly me. Jim Was his wing given orders to go? Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:26:57 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . Although most of the reservists were used to strengthen America's depleted strategic reserve force, four ANG fighter squadrons were dispatched to Vietnam. " Joining the Air National Guard, at the time the Air National Guard was being sent to Nam..sounds like a cowards way to me. Oh, get real. Four squadrons sent to Vietnam? I'll take those odds. That's the definition of a good dodge. Did anyone know at the time that Johnson would limit his callup to only 4 squadrons? As you probably know if you were really awake at the time, and if you weren't spending too much time with the bong, practically everyone who joined the ANG in those years did so to reduce their chances of fighting in 'Nam to near zero, while still putting in their time. This was a bad thing given the realities of Nam? Speaking of bongs..did you enjoy your living under a bridge in California? Get some of that good Humbolt Country Gold? That was the whole point. Don't you know that? Yup. And that was a bad thing? What branch of the military were you in? Ed Huntress Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:24:59 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote: On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:19:12 GMT, Gunner wrote: On 9 Feb 2004 12:43:39 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , Gunner says... Ah Jim...Dubya WAS an F-102 pilot ... Tough to get shot at, in texas. Jim And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN? Lots of Bear bombers over RVN were there? The F-102 was designed and tasked to intercept Soviet intercontinental nuclear bombers. It wasn't much good for anything else. It had no strike capability, and was probably the world's worst dogfighter. Some of them were used in Vietnam early on in the escort role (for which they were very ill suited), 15 were lost. But they'd been withdrawn from service over VN by the time Bush joined the Air Guard. They were designed to run down bombers entering our airspace, not for penetrating what was then the world's most intense air defense network. The primary operational task of Bush's air guard unit was to intercept Soviet Bear bombers staging out of Cuba. They intercepted them and escorted them away from our airspace. (The Soviets routinely probed our air defenses that way in those days.) That was a valid military mission, no less so than the guys in the heavy tank squadrons positioned eyeball to eyeball with the Soviets in northern Germany. But neither weapons system, nor their crews, could be of much use in Vietnam. Gary Yup. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
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OT-I ain't No senator's son...
On 10 Feb 2004 08:49:54 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article B17Wb.44271$u_6.24886@lakeread04, Glenn Ashmore says... His first dirty trick, which he is happy to brag about, was in Illinois in 1970. Gaining entry into the office of Alan Dixon, a Democrat running for state treasurer, Rove stole campaign stationery and printed false invitations to Dixon’s campaign headquarters, promising “free beer, free food, girls, and a good time.” They were distributed in places such as homeless shelters. Ha ha, that's great. I bet Kerry's guy is going to take a chapter from his book. This will be a great race. Jim Sounds like Rove learned at the foot of the Masters, the Daleys. Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas |
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