Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #201   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"mikee" wrote in message
...
Damn, Gunner, there you go again, quoting the U.S. Constitution! I like

the
2nd one, myself. Hadn't read it in a while. Doesn't refer to duck

hunting,
does it?

Me? For entertainment, I build guns. For real enjoyment, I go out and

kill
something.


I'm into cooking them. I'm watching the squirrels in my back yard as I type
this (they're taking over the neighborhood) and thinking about the last time
I made real Brunswick stew.

You have to shoot 'em to eat 'em.

Ed Huntress

"Eat mo' 'possum!" -- Dr. Sigmoid Fleet, aka Roberts Howard


  #202   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Tbone" wrote in message
...

Jim
I'm curious why you keep using the term "draft dodger" when the guy
was a reservist.
Reservist make up a large part of the forces in Iraq..are they "draft
dodgers" too??
Doesn't make sense to me!


I have to agree with you, Tbone. Now, changing your college majors four
times to keep your draft board off-balance, like I did, comes closer to
qualifying.

When John Belucci, in "Animal House," said "seven years of college down the
drain," I knew just how he felt. g

Ed Huntress


  #203   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Dale Scroggins" wrote in message
om...
Tbone wrote:
Jim
I'm curious why you keep using the term "draft dodger" when the guy
was a reservist.
Reservist make up a large part of the forces in Iraq..are they "draft
dodgers" too??
Doesn't make sense to me!


You must be a youngster, Tbone.

During the Vietnam era, joining the National Guard or Reserve guaranteed
that you were very unlikely to ever see combat. Or leave your home
state, more than likely. It wasn't really a war, you see. We were
merely assisting the RSVN with some training, hardware, and a few
troops. No need to call up the reserves or Guard.

Here's the drill from the '60s. You turn 18, and graduate high school,
you're eligible for the draft. You could, however, enroll in college
and be given a student deferment. But you had to keep your grades up
and make progress, or the college would notify your local draft board.

Or you could, early in the decade, get married. The marriage deferment
fell out of favor, though, so besides marriage, the wife needed to be
pregnant. Serious business.

George W. was about to lose his student deferment. He had been in
school the maximum number of semesters, I think, and had barely kept the
requisite grade point to keep his deferment. But that student deferment
was about to expire. He could either marry an already pregnant female
or join the reserves.

Joining the reserves or National Guard was a real problem for most of
us, though. Since membership in either one almost guaranteed a nice,
safe, uneventful stay here in the states, a LOT of young men saw that as
an attractive option. So all units, nationwide, were entirely, totally
full, with two- to three-year waiting lists. Understandable, right?


Another very good point. During the war, it seemed like the only people who
could get in were sons of politicians and their friends.

My dad, a decorated WWII Marine vet, tried to get me in through his
connections. No go. The list was impossible unless you were the son of a
Congressman, a Senator, or a foreign ambassador.

George W. Bush undoubtedly made the grade in that regard.

Ed Huntress


  #204   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Tbone" wrote in message
...


Had a lot of friends that joined the guard to keep working at their
educations and never heard of "year long waiting list" in Texas anyway
or those guys being called draft dodgers.

There are several things that the admin has done that really **** me
off but coming on with political spin of draft dodger is bull ****.

Clear enough??!!


Before 1967, no problem. After 1967, no hope. I know. I tried.

That was pretty much the case nation-wide.

Ed Huntress


  #205   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:58:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


Here's a guide to help with the liver-tarry-'un politics of the thing. If
someone supports an individual-RKBA interpretation of the 2nd, they're a
supporter of the Constitution and of civil rights, even if they otherwise
support lynching. If they don't support the individual-RKBA interpretation,
even if they're absolutists and literalists on every other aspect of the
Bill of Rights, they're a totalitarian fascist.

It's really quite simple. I learned this when I was lobbying against gun
control in Trenton.

Ed Huntress


Seems you havent gotten out much since the 30s..er..whenever that was.
G

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas


  #206   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Tbone" wrote in message
...
I agree Ed but it scares me that the rich are the ones "running the
country"!
We need TERM LIMITS so there are no career politicians! We need folks
from the real world that may make mistakes but do it in a democratic
fashion rather than a "deal maker club".
Everybody listen to themselves!! I read all the posts here and "the
party" shouldn't matter!! Just the best interest of our country no
matter party affiliation!
The politicians have the sheeple so divided on party lines...Rozen
you said "if Bush being elected in 04 would bring down the rep party
you would vote for him". If you believe all the other stuff you
said...is that in the country's best interest?
Who made the original statement "divide and conquer" People we are
being divided by the politicians for a purpose!!!!


Good points all, and they work for me. I think that career politicians are
the problem. If we had term limits and the kind of temporary service the
FF's envisioned (and, for the most part, what they practiced) we'd have a
more honest government. A somewhat naive one, and maybe a technically
less-competent one, but a more honest one.

I'll take the tradeoff in favor of honesty. Of course, I haven't had the
experience of seeing how it would work. g

Ed Huntress


  #207   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 7 Feb 2004 08:39:51 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dale

Scroggins
says...

Both the Republicans and Democrats should be careful what they wish for
this election cycle. While the economy will most likely improve enough
this summer to help Bush's reelection chances, we could witness some
truly interesting times within the next decade.

How 'bout this for a possibility: Bush is reelected by a narrow margin,
has a truly disastrous second term on many fronts, resulting in the
near-destruction of the Republican party for a generation.


Interesting. I always wondered if the contest between gore and
GWB was broked in the back room. Ie, the democrats said, 'no
thanks, we don't want this one. You folks go on up ahead and
take the point.'

I think if I knew that your theory was correct, I would vote for
bush in november.

Jim


Chuckle..the political pendulum has been swinging to the Right for
about 8 yrs. It has been Left for about 40 or so..


Gee, I didn't know that Ronnie Ray-Gun was a lefty. g

Ed Huntress


  #208   Report Post  
Mark Jerde
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

Ed Huntress wrote:

When John Belucci, in "Animal House," said "seven years of college
down the drain," I knew just how he felt. g


g I recall it as, "Seven years of college shot to hell."

I marched in my college NROTC unit in the homecoming parade shortly after
the movie came out in 1977. I was expecting someone to do something to us
but nothing happened... ;-)

-- Mark


  #209   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:58:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


Here's a guide to help with the liver-tarry-'un politics of the thing. If
someone supports an individual-RKBA interpretation of the 2nd, they're a
supporter of the Constitution and of civil rights, even if they otherwise
support lynching. If they don't support the individual-RKBA

interpretation,
even if they're absolutists and literalists on every other aspect of the
Bill of Rights, they're a totalitarian fascist.

It's really quite simple. I learned this when I was lobbying against gun
control in Trenton.

Ed Huntress


Seems you havent gotten out much since the 30s..er..whenever that was.
G


Hey, it wasn't the National Firearms Act of 1934 I was fighting against. How
old do you think I am, anyway? g?

Ed Huntress


  #210   Report Post  
Mark Jerde
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

Ed Huntress wrote:

Good points all, and they work for me. I think that career
politicians are the problem. If we had term limits and the kind of
temporary service the FF's envisioned (and, for the most part, what
they practiced) we'd have a more honest government. A somewhat naive
one, and maybe a technically less-competent one, but a more honest
one.


Do term limits /really/ make sense?

Wanted: Pipeline welder. Cannot have more than 5 years experience.

Wanted: Brain surgeon. Cannot have more than 3 years experience.

Wanted: U.S. senator. Cannot have more than 4 years experience.

???

It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.

-- Mark




  #211   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Good points all, and they work for me. I think that career
politicians are the problem. If we had term limits and the kind of
temporary service the FF's envisioned (and, for the most part, what
they practiced) we'd have a more honest government. A somewhat naive
one, and maybe a technically less-competent one, but a more honest
one.


Do term limits /really/ make sense?

Wanted: Pipeline welder. Cannot have more than 5 years experience.

Wanted: Brain surgeon. Cannot have more than 3 years experience.

Wanted: U.S. senator. Cannot have more than 4 years experience.

???

It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.


Indeed it does, Mark. And it's the "developing relationships" part that's
the most corrupting influence on our government. The "learning how to get
things done" part depends on how many corrupting relationships are
controlling the process.

Ed Huntress


  #212   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
news
Ed Huntress wrote:

When John Belucci, in "Animal House," said "seven years of college
down the drain," I knew just how he felt. g


g I recall it as, "Seven years of college shot to hell."

I marched in my college NROTC unit in the homecoming parade shortly after
the movie came out in 1977. I was expecting someone to do something to us
but nothing happened... ;-)


By then, things had calmed down. What the youngsters don't fully appreciate
is how fast our understanding of what was happening in Vietnam developed,
when it occurred, and how it changed the country.

In 1966, I was signed up for Air Force ROTC. By the end of 1967, it looked
like the stupidist thing a human could do.

The final turning point for me when I was home from college and my cousin, a
Marine sniper in the First Marine Division, was staying at our house while
he was home on R&R, having been shot out of a tree. Melvin Laird, then
(1969) the new Sec. of Defense, came on the tube and said, "We do not now
have, nor have we ever had, US troops in Laos," or something like that. My
cousin turned to me and said, "That's funny, I was there just a couple of
weeks ago. That's where I got shot out of the tree."

That did it.

Ed Huntress


  #213   Report Post  
Mark Jerde
 
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Ed Huntress wrote:

Indeed it does, Mark. And it's the "developing relationships" part
that's the most corrupting influence on our government. The "learning
how to get things done" part depends on how many corrupting
relationships are controlling the process.


I don't think everyone who gets into government service automatically gets
corrupted. Hopefully the ones that don't outnumber the ones who do. IIRC
there were a lot of people who weren't stung by Abscam. (Including Daschle,
IIRC.)

-- Mark


  #214   Report Post  
Mark Jerde
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

Ed Huntress wrote:

The final turning point for me when I was home from college and my
cousin, a Marine sniper in the First Marine Division, was staying at
our house while he was home on R&R, having been shot out of a tree.
Melvin Laird, then (1969) the new Sec. of Defense, came on the tube
and said, "We do not now have, nor have we ever had, US troops in
Laos," or something like that. My cousin turned to me and said,
"That's funny, I was there just a couple of weeks ago. That's where I
got shot out of the tree."


That's just wrong. 100% bad. I hate it when anyone lies.

But I've lived in the DC area for 10+ years and I think the majority of
folks in government are trying to do a good job.

-- Mark


  #215   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Here's a guide to help with the liver-tarry-'un politics of the thing. If
someone supports an individual-RKBA interpretation of the 2nd, they're a
supporter of the Constitution and of civil rights, even if they otherwise
support lynching. If they don't support the individual-RKBA interpretation,
even if they're absolutists and literalists on every other aspect of the
Bill of Rights, they're a totalitarian fascist.


It's a howler but apparently true. I think maybe that
gunner does not stress the remainder of the bill of
rights, simply because he rests easy, knowing that the
ACLU is on the job. Same with me and the second, and
the NRA.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



  #216   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

In article , Gunner says...

Then why do we have an "assault rifle" ban?


For the same reason mormons can't have ten wives.

Or for the same reason you can't yell fire in
a crowded theater - when there is no fire!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #217   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

In article , mikee says...

We really need to get this thread back on track. Do you recognize the
lathe in the link?:

http://www.adult-movie-clips.org/adu...gh/vera031.jpg


Now just look at that, wearing rings and watches around a
machine like that. Sloppy sloppy. Plus her loose clothing
and all.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #218   Report Post  
Jim Stewart
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

jim rozen wrote:
In article , mikee says...

We really need to get this thread back on track. Do you recognize the
lathe in the link?:

http://www.adult-movie-clips.org/adu...gh/vera031.jpg



Now just look at that, wearing rings and watches around a
machine like that. Sloppy sloppy. Plus her loose clothing
and all.


But it brings a whole new meaning to the term "live center"

  #219   Report Post  
Dale Scroggins
 
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Tbone wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:42:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Tbone wrote:

Jim
I'm curious why you keep using the term "draft dodger" when the guy
was a reservist.
Reservist make up a large part of the forces in Iraq..are they "draft
dodgers" too??
Doesn't make sense to me!


You must be a youngster, Tbone.

During the Vietnam era, joining the National Guard or Reserve guaranteed
that you were very unlikely to ever see combat. Or leave your home
state, more than likely. It wasn't really a war, you see. We were
merely assisting the RSVN with some training, hardware, and a few
troops. No need to call up the reserves or Guard.

Here's the drill from the '60s. You turn 18, and graduate high school,
you're eligible for the draft. You could, however, enroll in college
and be given a student deferment. But you had to keep your grades up
and make progress, or the college would notify your local draft board.

Or you could, early in the decade, get married. The marriage deferment
fell out of favor, though, so besides marriage, the wife needed to be
pregnant. Serious business.

George W. was about to lose his student deferment. He had been in
school the maximum number of semesters, I think, and had barely kept the
requisite grade point to keep his deferment. But that student deferment
was about to expire. He could either marry an already pregnant female
or join the reserves.

Joining the reserves or National Guard was a real problem for most of
us, though. Since membership in either one almost guaranteed a nice,
safe, uneventful stay here in the states, a LOT of young men saw that as
an attractive option. So all units, nationwide, were entirely, totally
full, with two- to three-year waiting lists. Understandable, right?

Funny thing, though. Regular fellows signed up for the waiting lists,
but they never moved up. Our local Guard unit suddenly became populated
by the sons of postmasters, judges, elected officials, and bank
presidents. Guys, on a lesser scale, like Dan Quail and George W. For
some reason, they didn't have to wait their turn.

My four older brothers simply enlisted when their time came. When my
turn came, the military didn't seem to appreciate the miracles of modern
medicine [a couple of pounds of stainless steel in various joints (metal
working content ;-))]. All my brothers were bright, and ended up doing
technical jobs. Two made careers and retired. They all survived, but
carry scars. No purple hearts, just scars.

George W., two weeks away from losing his student deferment, decided to
join an Air Force reserve unit. A COOL one, with fighters and
everything. Had to to take a test, though. Scored a 25, barely
acceptable. Was sworn in the day he applied. Some anonymous captain
swore him in. A couple of days later, the wing commander reenacted the
swearing-in for the benefit of the press. What do you reckon the odds
are that the reserve unit had a waiting list, full of more qualified
young men?

The military during the Viet Nam era was manned by draftees and
enlistees who found the draft to be a persuasive motivator. Forces were
built up slowly, over years, so the draft worked well. We didn't have a
draft for this Iraq war, nor an army big enough to sustain the
occupation, so activating the Guard and reserves couldn't be avoided.
We may yet see a political price paid for their activation, the price
feared by Johnson and Nixon.

Joining a Guard or reserve unit in the '60s and '70s was an excellent
method of avoiding the draft and combat. 'Taint so, now. But it was
then.

Clear enough?

Dale Scroggins





Nope but wish I could consider 59 a youngster!

Obviously I grew up in that era and had neighbors (when I was a
youngster) that served with the guard in Korea much like Nam.


So, as you remember it, the Guard unit from your area served in both
Korea and Viet Nam? I would believe Korea, since the full-time military
had been reduced drastically from WW II levels, and the war moved too
fast for a draft to fill the need. But Viet Nam? Your local Guard unit
served in Viet Nam? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Had a lot of friends that joined the guard to keep working at their
educations and never heard of "year long waiting list" in Texas anyway
or those guys being called draft dodgers.


So they joined the Guard AND attended college? Nothing like being on
the safe side, I guess. And no waiting list either, even in the late
'60s and early '70s? If your memory reflects conditions before 1967,
maybe so. But if anyone could get in during the time George W. was
looking for a way out of the war, then Texas was truly a different kind
of place from Arkansas. I always thought they were a lot alike, with
traditions of military service going back a hundred years or more, but
maybe not. Maybe the Texans were much more eager to serve in the active
military during Viet Nam, leaving their local Guard units searching for
recruits. Could be, I guess. You know more about that than I do.

There are several things that the admin has done that really **** me
off but coming on with political spin of draft dodger is bull ****.

Clear enough??!!


What, exactly, was a "draft dodger" in 1970? Would you consider someone
who decided to attend college for the sole reason to avoid military
service a "draft dodger"? The small state college I attended during
those years (after finding out I was "unfit" for service) more than
doubled in enrollment in less than five years. After the war, it
returned to pre-war enrollment figures. Female enrollment didn't change
much during the war. So what were all those male students doing there?

Same thing with Guard recruitment. Apparently, in all states except
Texas, young men were beating down the door at Guard units all over the
country. After the war, lots of units began having trouble filling
slots. Why were all these young men so interested in joining the Guard
during those years?

You apparently believe these young men were not trying to "dodge" the
draft. I believe they were. And I believed it in 1970, long before the
term "political spin" came into use. So who brainwashed me back in 1970?

Dale Scroggins

  #220   Report Post  
Dan Caster
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

My first choice was MIT, but my parents wanted me to go somewhere else, and I did.

Dan


(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message

Well, if you had had his parents and "pull" ... you too might have gone
to Yale & Harvard (private tutors?) ....



  #221   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
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Ed Huntress wrote:


Another very good point. During the war, it seemed like the only people who
could get in were sons of politicians and their friends.

My dad, a decorated WWII Marine vet, tried to get me in through his
connections. No go. The list was impossible unless you were the son of a
Congressman, a Senator, or a foreign ambassador.

George W. Bush undoubtedly made the grade in that regard.



My dad was a Brigadier General in the Georgia Guard at the time and that
was one thing that really p*$#ed him off. The experienced WWII and
Korean vets who were in the Guard to get their 20 years were getting out
and the Guard was in desperate need of enlistees who would be in for the
long haul. Instead they were forced to give slots to children of
politicians who they knew would be out as soon as the war was over.

Didn't make much difference for me. With 7 years of ROTC and as the
progeny of 5 generations of Colonels and above I was genetically
programmed to go.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

  #222   Report Post  
pyotr filipivich
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

A city wide blackout at Sun, 08 Feb 2004 08:13:35 GMT did not prevent Gunner
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Frankly.. the Dems are now a party of leftwing extremists..their
membership simply has either not gotten the hint yet, or are trying to
ignore it out of party loyalty. Shrug.

The country as a whole is far more conservative now than it was even
10 yrs ago.


The so called "Roe" effect. Readily available abortions were selected by
mostly liberal women, resulting in an imbalance between the conservative and
liberal points of view when it came to teaching one's children. (I.e. you
can't teach your values to children you don't have.) Those kids have grown up,
and are entering The Real World(tm), and started out less liberal than the
people who have no children of their own.


Hell thats one of the reasons Bush is getting so much
flack from most everyone, as he is not the Conservative he campaigned
to be. Bush is a moderate, and is pandering to both the moderates and
the mainstream Dems. This is the one reason a hell of a lot of us on
the Right are not happy campers with him. He is too moderate. The
Lefties would hate his guts, no matter what, even if he sung the
Internatiale and changed his stripes to Socialist, so their opinions
are of no value.


The Democrats are the Socialist party of 1928, the Repub;licans are the
Democrats of 1960. There really isn't a "smaller government, lower taxes,
strong defense" party anymore.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
Can you trust the party of Senator Holling, Bull Conner, and Nathan
Bedford Forest to really be concerned about the rights of people not like them?
  #223   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
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Mark Jerde wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:


The final turning point for me when I was home from college and my
cousin, a Marine sniper in the First Marine Division, was staying at
our house while he was home on R&R, having been shot out of a tree.
Melvin Laird, then (1969) the new Sec. of Defense, came on the tube
and said, "We do not now have, nor have we ever had, US troops in
Laos," or something like that. My cousin turned to me and said,
"That's funny, I was there just a couple of weeks ago. That's where I
got shot out of the tree."



That's just wrong. 100% bad. I hate it when anyone lies.


Believe what you want but in '69 I could read a map well enough to know
when I we were getting set down 5 clicks south of Lao Boa. I thought it
was a mistake but the Cap'n yelled to shut the F*** up and sweep East.

I had to write 6 letters after that trip.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

  #224   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

What, exactly, was a "draft dodger" in 1970? Would you consider someone
who decided to attend college for the sole reason to avoid military
service a "draft dodger"?


The real question is, what do the *republicans* think is a draft
dodger? The flow chart looks like this:

If bill clinton, then 'yes.'

If GWB, then "no."

If Kerry, then "this is a stupid issue."

Jim

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  #225   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
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Gunner, it is the ACLU, as a result of a case they on took on in Georgia
back in the '50s that keeps the city from condemning your back yard. In
that case a man had accumulated a large amount of used equipment in his
yard. Over time a high class subdivision grew up around him and the
city demanded that he remove all the junk. Nobody would defend him but
the ACLU. They won with a defence based on the Fifth Amendment.

Gunner wrote:

On 8 Feb 2004 08:41:56 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Gunner says...


Chuckle..the ACLU defends whatever "right of the moment" gives them
the best press and the biggest contributions. Care to provide any 2nd
amendment cases they have taken?


They don't *need* to. They have the NRA for pete's sake.

Jim



Then why do we have an "assault rifle" ban?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com



  #226   Report Post  
Dan Caster
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...---and I wouldn't trust any of them...

I understand putting the interests of my family and friends ahead of
others, but why should I care about fellow citizens that I don't know
more than non fellow citizens that I don't know. Why do you think
that it is more important to help US citizens who live in a country of
opportunity, than to help those that do not have nearly as much
opportunity.

I also disagree with your idea that Americans can not get the same
kind of aid as foreigners get. US citizens have way more access to
aid than citizens of third world countries. Locally there are a
number of organizations that help those that need help.

Here people throw out things that are not available in most third
world coutries. Go down to your local Salvation Army store and see
all the items that people have donated. How much of that do you think
you would see say in third world countries?

Dan



Chris Johnson wrote in message



No, it's a matter of putting the interests of your own family, friends,
and fellow citizens in YOUR own back yard/country ahead of the interests
of those in other places.

When we're giving away BILLIONS of dollars in foreign aid to help
feed, clothe, and shelter people in other countries when we have
people in our OWN country that have the same basic needs which are
not being provided for, then there's something SERIOUSLY WRONG.

I have no problem with foreign aid, per se. My problem with it comes
when Americans can't get the same kind of aid.

You take care of your own before you take care of outsiders. It's a
matter of priorities.

CJ

  #227   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...



Mark Jerde wrote:


Do term limits /really/ make sense?

Wanted: Pipeline welder. Cannot have more than 5 years experience.

Wanted: Brain surgeon. Cannot have more than 3 years experience.

Wanted: U.S. senator. Cannot have more than 4 years experience.

???

It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.



OTOH, the longest serving members of the majority party in congress are
always the biggest pigs at the trough. It does not take a whole lot of
smarts to realize that the cheapest way to stay in office is to bring
home the pork regardless of the best interest of the country.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

  #228   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Indeed it does, Mark. And it's the "developing relationships" part
that's the most corrupting influence on our government. The "learning
how to get things done" part depends on how many corrupting
relationships are controlling the process.


I don't think everyone who gets into government service automatically gets
corrupted. Hopefully the ones that don't outnumber the ones who do. IIRC
there were a lot of people who weren't stung by Abscam. (Including

Daschle,
IIRC.)


For perspective's sake, and for the record, I agree completely. I've known a
few Congressmen and there is no evidence that they were corrupt in any
conventional way. There are some who are deeply corrupt, but my bigger
concern is that the system itself becomes corrupt by the machinations of
career politicians. They have their own ways of getting things done, and it
includes lots of minor corruptions, such as heavy-duty logrolling,
porkbarrel outrages, and so on. Petty stuff, but stuff that corrupts the
whole process.

Ed Huntress



  #229   Report Post  
mikee
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

So I can sleep easy tonight, knowing that Gunner and Jim Rozen and Ed Huntress
are out there protecting my 1st, 2nd and 5th (thru 14?) constitutional rights?

Mike Eberlein (easy guys, just an attempt at light humor. Thr guys really
protecting our asses are in Iraq, hopefully getting more than minimum wage for
their troubles)

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Here's a guide to help with the liver-tarry-'un politics of the thing. If
someone supports an individual-RKBA interpretation of the 2nd, they're a
supporter of the Constitution and of civil rights, even if they otherwise
support lynching. If they don't support the individual-RKBA interpretation,
even if they're absolutists and literalists on every other aspect of the
Bill of Rights, they're a totalitarian fascist.


It's a howler but apparently true. I think maybe that
gunner does not stress the remainder of the bill of
rights, simply because he rests easy, knowing that the
ACLU is on the job. Same with me and the second, and
the NRA.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


  #230   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"mikee" wrote in message
...
So I can sleep easy tonight, knowing that Gunner and Jim Rozen and Ed

Huntress
are out there protecting my 1st, 2nd and 5th (thru 14?) constitutional

rights?

I'm big on the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th. Those guys will take care of the
rest. g

Ed Huntress




  #231   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

I'm big on the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th. Those guys will take care of the
rest. g


I always sort of liked the 6th. The story of Gideon Vs Wainright
and how the right to be represented by council came about is one
of my favorite stories. They made a film about it, Gideon's
Trumpet.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #232   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:51:01 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
brought forth from the murky depths:

Do term limits /really/ make sense?


YES!


Wanted: Pipeline welder. Cannot have more than 5 years experience.

Wanted: Brain surgeon. Cannot have more than 3 years experience.


What? A weldor or brain surgeon in politics? Nah, neither is
dumb enough to go into it.


Wanted: U.S. senator. Cannot have more than 4 years experience.


Good.


It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.


"Learn how to do things the Totally Corrupt D.C. Way"
How long could THAT take?


--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development
  #233   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress
says...

I'm big on the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th. Those guys will take care of the
rest. g


I always sort of liked the 6th. The story of Gideon Vs Wainright
and how the right to be represented by council came about is one
of my favorite stories. They made a film about it, Gideon's
Trumpet.


Ok, you've got dibs on the 6th. Any others?

Ed Huntress


  #234   Report Post  
Santa Cruz Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...---and I wouldn't trust any of them...

On 8 Feb 2004 15:05:20 -0800, (Dan Caster) wrote:

I understand putting the interests of my family and friends ahead of
others, but why should I care about fellow citizens that I don't know
more than non fellow citizens that I don't know. Why do you think
that it is more important to help US citizens who live in a country of
opportunity, than to help those that do not have nearly as much
opportunity.

I also disagree with your idea that Americans can not get the same
kind of aid as foreigners get. US citizens have way more access to
aid than citizens of third world countries. Locally there are a
number of organizations that help those that need help.

Here people throw out things that are not available in most third
world coutries. Go down to your local Salvation Army store and see
all the items that people have donated. How much of that do you think
you would see say in third world countries?

Dan



Chris Johnson wrote in message



No, it's a matter of putting the interests of your own family, friends,
and fellow citizens in YOUR own back yard/country ahead of the interests
of those in other places.

When we're giving away BILLIONS of dollars in foreign aid to help
feed, clothe, and shelter people in other countries when we have
people in our OWN country that have the same basic needs which are
not being provided for, then there's something SERIOUSLY WRONG.

I have no problem with foreign aid, per se. My problem with it comes
when Americans can't get the same kind of aid.

You take care of your own before you take care of outsiders. It's a
matter of priorities.

CJ



Dan.. for years it was illegal to donate clothing to children in
Mexico.. and everything three months we smuggled clothing and toys for
kids into Matamoroas.. I took over 10,000s lbs into Mexico in five
trips during the Xmas holidays in 1979... sweating bullets.. but
worth it.. those litlle kids had nothing.. and the stores were pretty
poorly stocked so that even with money.. you couldn't buy them stuff..
just with the group I was driving for.. hundreds of kids got some new
and used clothes... also drove about a dozen vehicles down there and
"abandoned".. so folks could have a car...

Later,
Mike

  #235   Report Post  
pyotr filipivich
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

A city wide blackout at Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:14:37 GMT did not prevent Gunner
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 8 Feb 2004 08:40:35 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Without the Second Amendment...there would be no First.


You mean, without *guns* there would be no first, or second.

But after they secured those rights, which one did they
put down first on the page?

Jim


And which one is second of the original 10?


Is this a trick question?

tschus
pyotr


(I think they recently ratified #2 on the original list, is why I ask.)




--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."


  #236   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

On 8 Feb 2004 12:30:10 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Then why do we have an "assault rifle" ban?


For the same reason mormons can't have ten wives.

Because its against modern Judeo Christian bleeves?

Or for the same reason you can't yell fire in
a crowded theater - when there is no fire!


Because it creates a riot where someone may get hurt?

Jim


Try again.

Gunner


================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =


"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
  #237   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:52:44 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

Gunner, it is the ACLU, as a result of a case they on took on in Georgia
back in the '50s that keeps the city from condemning your back yard. In
that case a man had accumulated a large amount of used equipment in his
yard. Over time a high class subdivision grew up around him and the
city demanded that he remove all the junk. Nobody would defend him but
the ACLU. They won with a defence based on the Fifth Amendment.


Exellent. However I live in the county.

Now would you tell me when Ill be allowed to purchase a H&K G91 in
California?

Gunner


Gunner wrote:

On 8 Feb 2004 08:41:56 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Gunner says...


Chuckle..the ACLU defends whatever "right of the moment" gives them
the best press and the biggest contributions. Care to provide any 2nd
amendment cases they have taken?

They don't *need* to. They have the NRA for pete's sake.

Jim



Then why do we have an "assault rifle" ban?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas


"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
  #238   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:17:35 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Same thing with Guard recruitment. Apparently, in all states except
Texas, young men were beating down the door at Guard units all over the
country. After the war, lots of units began having trouble filling
slots. Why were all these young men so interested in joining the Guard
during those years?

You apparently believe these young men were not trying to "dodge" the
draft. I believe they were. And I believed it in 1970, long before the
term "political spin" came into use. So who brainwashed me back in 1970?

Dale Scroggins


Hell yes they were trying to dodge the draft, and there is no shame in
it. They at the least put themselves in a situation where they
performed some service to their country.

They didnt split for Canada. and indeed a number of Guard units did
ultimately wind up in RVN.

The Vietnam was was not only a watershed in American history..but its
universal unpopularity in the late 60s caused a lot of young men who
were indeed patriotic to review exactly what was being asked of
them..and found it to be wanting.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
  #239   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

On 8 Feb 2004 14:51:17 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

What, exactly, was a "draft dodger" in 1970? Would you consider someone
who decided to attend college for the sole reason to avoid military
service a "draft dodger"?


The real question is, what do the *republicans* think is a draft
dodger? The flow chart looks like this:

If bill clinton, then 'yes.'


Clinton went to Europe to do dope, and rape young English girls.

If GWB, then "no."


GW strapped on a supersonic aircraft which could have killed him in an
instant.


If Kerry, then "this is a stupid issue."

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =


"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
  #240   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT-I ain't No senator's son...

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:43:58 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On 7 Feb 2004 08:39:51 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dale

Scroggins
says...

Both the Republicans and Democrats should be careful what they wish for
this election cycle. While the economy will most likely improve enough
this summer to help Bush's reelection chances, we could witness some
truly interesting times within the next decade.

How 'bout this for a possibility: Bush is reelected by a narrow margin,
has a truly disastrous second term on many fronts, resulting in the
near-destruction of the Republican party for a generation.

Interesting. I always wondered if the contest between gore and
GWB was broked in the back room. Ie, the democrats said, 'no
thanks, we don't want this one. You folks go on up ahead and
take the point.'

I think if I knew that your theory was correct, I would vote for
bush in november.

Jim


Chuckle..the political pendulum has been swinging to the Right for
about 8 yrs. It has been Left for about 40 or so..


Gee, I didn't know that Ronnie Ray-Gun was a lefty. g

Ed Huntress

After the nebbish Carter..St. Reagan appealled to many Democrats as
well. However..it wasnt until the 104 Congress that the Republicans
had any power in Congress. And Congress is the movers and shakers.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
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