"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:24:26 GMT, "William"
wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...
Why are you worried about people being swayed by polls? If they can be
swayed by a poll, what else can they be swayed by?

I think the stink over polls is 'way off base. I don't know anyone who
votes
on the basis of polls. But I do know people who vote for stupid
reasons.

It's not that they may vote based on the polls, it's that they may NOT
vote
at all, becuse of them, especially with exit polling.

Well, if they have that little strength of their convictions that they
don't want
their voice heard, or don't care about more local issues also on the
ballot where
their vote can still make a difference, then maybe it is better that they
don't vote.

But it is a moot point anyway, since exit polls can't be reported until
after the
West Coast polls close.

Gary

True, they no longer report the exit polls before the voting is over.
However that's really just the last time point in the loop. The press
reports the "winners" ( at least as far as they see them ) for months, then
weeks, and finally days and hours before the polls open. So they cut off
the last point in the list. They are also doing this, although to a lower
rate, in local, and state wide elections too. So if your party or, your
favorite group of candidates is running behind according to the polling
data, the "average" voter may be less likely to vote. Now you can argue
that only the "strongly convicted" should vote, but I would really like to
see ( well at least once :-) an election that every one entitled to vote
did.

William.....

(Dan Caster) wrote in message om...
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message

GEORGE W. BUSH
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20520

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:



College:

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a
cheerleader.


Hmmm. The same college that Kerry attended and belonged to the same
frat that Kerry joined.

Why didn't you include graduate schools? Harvard Business School.

With only a low C average how did he get in? Did he get out the
same way as he got out of the National Guard?

That is what I love about Democrats claiming that Bush is not bright.

Please name three US presidents in all of US history that were dumber.

"George Bush's SAT score was 1206, which puts him in the 83rd percentile."

Seems like the his IQ is thought to be about 120 - 125. About 15%
of te US population is brighter by far. He'd never make it into Mensa.

Graduated from one of the most prestigious colleges and attended one
of the better business schools.

"Attended"? And AFTER that ran so many businesses into the ground?
(Reminds one of what's happening to the US now, right Deficits good,
never met a spending bill he did not like, all those special favors ...)

More than I did.

Well, if you had had his parents and "pull" ... you too might have gone
to Yale & Harvard (private tutors?) ....

Dan

--
Cliff

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:02:34 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 09:04:11 -0600, mikee
brought forth from the murky depths:

I'd love your scenario, as it means my children would have a chance to be alive
for a another generation (twenty years?). This is about survival, fella, nothing
else. I'll take GW, thank you.

The Shrub's reelection could result in global jihad and an end
to our glorious way of life. I hope you do NOT get what you wish
for, Mikey.


Bush's reelection could cause toilets to reverse flow, Linda Blairs
head to spin around and speak in tongues, the sun to come up in the
west, global cooling, global warming, the death of the sun, the sun
going nova yada yada yada.

Snicker..global jihad..right. The mullahs have been calling for that
even pre Bush..and where is it?

Most of those prone to Global Jihad are dead, or soon to be dead. And
I rest much easier knowing that Bush caused them to be dead.

Let the Israeli's wack the couple hundred or so remaining militant
Mullahs, and things will be just peachy.

Lets not go into the fact that the Muslims only recognize force as the
main negotiating value and we have suddenly been found to be able and
WILLING to apply mondo force. And hence..are to be respected and
considered.

Great Satan or not..at the least, they know that if they attack the
US, they will die, part and parcel. How many attacks has the US had
on it since 9/11?

Hummmm could it be a number less than (1)? I think so.

Any idea of why Kadaffi Duck made great fanfare of ending his WMD
programs? Because he knew that he was being watched, evaluated and
targeted. He made much more political hay by being "generous" and
giving up his (failing) WMD programs, than actually implementing them.

If he could not be against the US and the rest of the world, at least
he could be at peace with it. Much safer, and tends not to draw
guided bombs in his tent. He already had a bit of experience with the
US and iron bombs......cost him a child and a palace if I recall.


Gunner



================================================= ==========
Save the Endangered Boullions from being cubed!
http://www.diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
================================================= ==========

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 7 Feb 2004 08:39:51 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

Both the Republicans and Democrats should be careful what they wish for
this election cycle. While the economy will most likely improve enough
this summer to help Bush's reelection chances, we could witness some
truly interesting times within the next decade.

How 'bout this for a possibility: Bush is reelected by a narrow margin,
has a truly disastrous second term on many fronts, resulting in the
near-destruction of the Republican party for a generation.

Interesting. I always wondered if the contest between gore and
GWB was broked in the back room. Ie, the democrats said, 'no
thanks, we don't want this one. You folks go on up ahead and
take the point.'

I think if I knew that your theory was correct, I would vote for
bush in november.

Jim

Chuckle..the political pendulum has been swinging to the Right for
about 8 yrs. It has been Left for about 40 or so..

The Republican party is stronger today than it has been in over 40
yrs, and there is no danger of it crashing down anytime soon. Its
replacement someday in the future will be a more libertarian one.

The Democratic party on the other hand..is in shambles. The rats are
deserting the sinking ship and the far left wing extremists that have
decided to go down with the ship are alienating even the few folks
that might have considered trying to bail the bilge.

9 candidates for president? And each and everyone trying to cut the
throat of the other guy.. indeed..there is some party cohesiveness?
Notice that only the extreme Lefties are given DNC support? Edwards
and Lieberman were too moderate and look what happened to them..hung
out to dry.

Frankly.. the Dems are now a party of leftwing extremists..their
membership simply has either not gotten the hint yet, or are trying to
ignore it out of party loyalty. Shrug.

The country as a whole is far more conservative now than it was even
10 yrs ago. Hell thats one of the reasons Bush is getting so much
flack from most everyone, as he is not the Conservative he campaigned
to be. Bush is a moderate, and is pandering to both the moderates and
the mainstream Dems. This is the one reason a hell of a lot of us on
the Right are not happy campers with him. He is too moderate. The
Lefties would hate his guts, no matter what, even if he sung the
Internatiale and changed his stripes to Socialist, so their opinions
are of no value.

This will indeed be an interesting year.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:51:09 -0600, mikee wrote:

Boy! Talk about a bunch of conspiracy theorists! We've already got Osama and
are just holding him till close to election day so we (Bush) can get great
press??.....Hell, that's not a bad idea, hope it's true, but I doubt it. Too
many people in the U.S (including myself) who would readily waste that MF on
sight, not to mention those in uniform and on duty in Afganistan.

Mike Eberlein

Chuckle..that was the same lame spew the Left tried out when Saddam
was captured. It didnt work then either.

Gunner


Ed Huntress wrote:

"William" wrote in message
news:YacVb.246780$na.409990@attbi_s04...


*If* they pull the Osama-Rabbit out of the hat less than a month
before the election, Bush is a shoe in. I'll put five bucks
on that bet, Ed. If you take that one, we'll need to have some
kind of digital handshake to seal the wager!

Jim


Only if they leave enough time for him to thaw out and don't forget to cut
the toe tag off before the pictures :-)
William....

Haha! Now, that would make a good story.

Ed Huntress

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:42:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:

Tbone wrote:
Jim
I'm curious why you keep using the term "draft dodger" when the guy
was a reservist.
Reservist make up a large part of the forces in Iraq..are they "draft
dodgers" too??
Doesn't make sense to me!

You must be a youngster, Tbone.

During the Vietnam era, joining the National Guard or Reserve guaranteed
that you were very unlikely to ever see combat. Or leave your home
state, more than likely. It wasn't really a war, you see. We were
merely assisting the RSVN with some training, hardware, and a few
troops. No need to call up the reserves or Guard.

Here's the drill from the '60s. You turn 18, and graduate high school,
you're eligible for the draft. You could, however, enroll in college
and be given a student deferment. But you had to keep your grades up
and make progress, or the college would notify your local draft board.

Or you could, early in the decade, get married. The marriage deferment
fell out of favor, though, so besides marriage, the wife needed to be
pregnant. Serious business.

George W. was about to lose his student deferment. He had been in
school the maximum number of semesters, I think, and had barely kept the
requisite grade point to keep his deferment. But that student deferment
was about to expire. He could either marry an already pregnant female
or join the reserves.

Joining the reserves or National Guard was a real problem for most of
us, though. Since membership in either one almost guaranteed a nice,
safe, uneventful stay here in the states, a LOT of young men saw that as
an attractive option. So all units, nationwide, were entirely, totally
full, with two- to three-year waiting lists. Understandable, right?

Funny thing, though. Regular fellows signed up for the waiting lists,
but they never moved up. Our local Guard unit suddenly became populated
by the sons of postmasters, judges, elected officials, and bank
presidents. Guys, on a lesser scale, like Dan Quail and George W. For
some reason, they didn't have to wait their turn.

My four older brothers simply enlisted when their time came. When my
turn came, the military didn't seem to appreciate the miracles of modern
medicine [a couple of pounds of stainless steel in various joints (metal
working content ;-))]. All my brothers were bright, and ended up doing
technical jobs. Two made careers and retired. They all survived, but
carry scars. No purple hearts, just scars.

George W., two weeks away from losing his student deferment, decided to
join an Air Force reserve unit. A COOL one, with fighters and
everything. Had to to take a test, though. Scored a 25, barely
acceptable. Was sworn in the day he applied. Some anonymous captain
swore him in. A couple of days later, the wing commander reenacted the
swearing-in for the benefit of the press. What do you reckon the odds
are that the reserve unit had a waiting list, full of more qualified
young men?

The military during the Viet Nam era was manned by draftees and
enlistees who found the draft to be a persuasive motivator. Forces were
built up slowly, over years, so the draft worked well. We didn't have a
draft for this Iraq war, nor an army big enough to sustain the
occupation, so activating the Guard and reserves couldn't be avoided.
We may yet see a political price paid for their activation, the price
feared by Johnson and Nixon.

Joining a Guard or reserve unit in the '60s and '70s was an excellent
method of avoiding the draft and combat. 'Taint so, now. But it was
then.

Clear enough?

Dale Scroggins




http://www.journal-news.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/01/12/1073938780.26609.9372.0722.html;COXnetJSessionID=A mEi7zIqRAgxwVGCnoO1GXMxv2xjj9Wn1m5qakimxbnw71KTFzO j!-2092209361?urac=n&urvf=10762333148510.410046524236 49746

At least he didnt "loath the military" desert, go to Europe and
protest the war, and spend a significant amount of time in a KGB front
house, and then be expelled from Oxford for rape.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 7 Feb 2004 18:10:45 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Hummmm so what about the 2nd Amendment?

Go back and read my comments. The *entire* bill of
rights. Did you miss that?

So you are saying the bill of rights is not part of the Constitution?

Claiming the Liberals have any sense of value for the Constitution ,
beyond trying to find work arounds is hysterically funny.

Which is odd, because any time somebody wants to slap the
"L" label on their opponent, they call them a 'card carrying
member of the ACLU.' Which, last time I checked, was an
organization devoted exclusively to doing what I mentioned
above. Upholding the bill of rights.

Jim

Chuckle..the ACLU defends whatever "right of the moment" gives them
the best press and the biggest contributions. Care to provide any 2nd
amendment cases they have taken?

Think really hard.

http://archive.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html

If you parse out the above statements from the ACLU..any scholar on
the subject can point out the ah...inaccuracies they claim to be true.
Including their misinterpretation of Miller..which for a group of
lawyers..is really scary if they are that incompetent.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:21:59 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:



jim rozen wrote:


Which is odd, because any time somebody wants to slap the
"L" label on their opponent, they call them a 'card carrying
member of the ACLU.' Which, last time I checked, was an
organization devoted exclusively to doing what I mentioned
above. Upholding the bill of rights.

One slaps the L label on those it applies to. If it walks like a duck,
quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and swims in the water, its
unlikely to be a kangaroo.

The rabid Right is always willing to brand anyone who has an opinion
even slightly different with the "L" word. In fact that is their
favorite tactic.

Hummm is this like saying the conservatives want to poison the air and
water, starve the children, take away Grandmas home and make her die
in the snow? Or perhaps describing the Right as the N word, or the F
word?

It is odd that those who don't have a clue about the Bill of Rights and
don't seem to want one are so keee to lable an organization that is as
willing to take up the cause of the Klan in Skokee as it is the NAACP in
Atlanta as "liberal". The bill of Rights says what it says. Not what
some people think it should. There are far to many people that do not
realize that a loss of a right to one is a loss to all.

The ACLU does indeed do good work. Unfortunately they are mighy
selective about which rights they attempt to protect.
***********************

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of
adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent
misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of
public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent
ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses
concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the
Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution
of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by
three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and
purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed.


Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without
the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by law.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except
in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when
in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any
person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of
life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of
the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the
witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.


Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed
twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no
fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of
the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states
respectively, or to the people.

************************

Now..would you care to discuss which ones the ACLU has ignored?
Remember..google is your friend....


Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 7 Feb 2004 19:43:29 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article k2iVb.40759$u_6.25232@lakeread04, Glenn Ashmore says...


It is odd that those who don't have a clue about the Bill of Rights and
don't seem to want one are so keee to lable an organization that is as
willing to take up the cause of the Klan in Skokee as it is the NAACP in
Atlanta as "liberal". The bill of Rights says what it says. Not what
some people think it should. There are far to many people that do not
realize that a loss of a right to one is a loss to all.

Indeed, that the loss of a *single* one of them, in reality
means the loss of them all. All too often we hear the second
amendment drum beaten by the same folks who will gladly
give up the first, or any of the others, for that matter.

Jim

Without the Second Amendment...there would be no First.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:14:21 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:

Tbone wrote:

I agree Ed but it scares me that the rich are the ones "running the
country"!
We need TERM LIMITS so there are no career politicians! We need folks
from the real world that may make mistakes but do it in a democratic
fashion rather than a "deal maker club".
Everybody listen to themselves!! I read all the posts here and "the
party" shouldn't matter!! Just the best interest of our country no
matter party affiliation!
The politicians have the sheeple so divided on party lines...Rozen
you said "if Bush being elected in 04 would bring down the rep party
you would vote for him". If you believe all the other stuff you
said...is that in the country's best interest?
Who made the original statement "divide and conquer" People we are
being divided by the politicians for a purpose!!!!

Cussing politicians is like cussing a middle-level manager in business.
Politicians work hard to keep their jobs and please their bosses. If
their bosses are ill-informed and inattentive, then middle-level
managers may choose to take advantage. If the boss only shows up once
every four years, can't be bothered with petty details, makes a few
emotional, off-the-cuff decisions, then disappears for another four
years, then the boss will get what he deserves.

What if some of his managers are talented, experienced, and principled?
Should they be lumped in with the lesser managers, and all chucked out
based on years of service, simply because the boss can't be bothered to
check performance of his managers?

If our country goes to hell in a handbasket within the next twenty
years, don't blame the politicians. Take personal responsibility. If
you believe that other voters are misinformed or uninformed, then inform
them. If YOU are uninformed or misinformed, inform yourself. All of us
are uninformed, to varying degrees. But if we remain that way, it isn't
the politicians' fault. Or the media's, for that matter. WE drive this
system.

I've been working in political campaigns since 1966. If you don't like
my political inclinations, you better get out and get to work.
Otherwise, I win in a walkover.


Dale Scroggins

Excellent post!

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Damn, Gunner, there you go again, quoting the U.S. Constitution! I like the
2nd one, myself. Hadn't read it in a while. Doesn't refer to duck hunting,
does it?

Me? For entertainment, I build guns. For real enjoyment, I go out and kill
something.

Mike Eberlein

Gunner wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:21:59 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:



jim rozen wrote:


Which is odd, because any time somebody wants to slap the
"L" label on their opponent, they call them a 'card carrying
member of the ACLU.' Which, last time I checked, was an
organization devoted exclusively to doing what I mentioned
above. Upholding the bill of rights.

One slaps the L label on those it applies to. If it walks like a duck,
quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and swims in the water, its
unlikely to be a kangaroo.

The rabid Right is always willing to brand anyone who has an opinion
even slightly different with the "L" word. In fact that is their
favorite tactic.

Hummm is this like saying the conservatives want to poison the air and
water, starve the children, take away Grandmas home and make her die
in the snow? Or perhaps describing the Right as the N word, or the F
word?

It is odd that those who don't have a clue about the Bill of Rights and
don't seem to want one are so keee to lable an organization that is as
willing to take up the cause of the Klan in Skokee as it is the NAACP in
Atlanta as "liberal". The bill of Rights says what it says. Not what
some people think it should. There are far to many people that do not
realize that a loss of a right to one is a loss to all.

The ACLU does indeed do good work. Unfortunately they are mighy
selective about which rights they attempt to protect.
***********************

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of
adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent
misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of
public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent
ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses
concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the
Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution
of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by
three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and
purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without
the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except
in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when
in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any
person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of
life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of
the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the
witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed
twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no
fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of
the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states
respectively, or to the people.

************************

Now..would you care to discuss which ones the ACLU has ignored?
Remember..google is your friend....

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

You can claim all sorts of things with numbers. Total count to date for
"Coalition" forces: 630 dead...

Yes, that's about 2 weeks avg in the VN "conflict" worth. No one says it's a
cakewalk over there but it's no VN either.
Greg Sefton

will likely backfire & they know it but it's
the only shot they have.).

Nope, this worked great for the republicans many years running.
Remember willie horton?

Jim

You taking bets on that, Jim )?? Put me down for some action.
Greg Sefton

He [clinton] (& jane) should be tried for treason along with
perjury.

Fair enough, then ya gotta do W for draft dodging too.

Jim

Er uh.. That honorable discharge would be a pretty strong defense ).
Greg Sefton

Like I said, if you want odds, buy a lottery ticket.

That's a tax on people who are bad at math ).
Greg Sefton

*If* they pull the Osama-Rabbit out of the hat less than a month
before the election, Bush is a shoe in.

Nah, they can't do that. Kerry has him and will out him at the convention...
as his running mate ).
Greg Sefton

George W. Bush's smartest move was in choosing his parents very well.

Ed Huntress


And Kerry's was choosing his wives ).
Greg Sefton

But I know some folks who *do* care, and you're going to be hearing
about it during the upcoming campaing. Just a guess.

Jim

Anyone who bases their vote on an academic record is a fool. There are many
brilliant people who weren't into academia and were very successful in bus. &
life.
Greg Sefton

I still have high hopes
for Iraq, but that could turn out either way. If it ends up being a
true democracy, he will look like a genius. If it does not, an idiot.

Dan

Or an optimist.
Greg Sefton

"Unfortunately Carl Rove, the
world champion rumor mongering dirty tricks mud slinger is callint the
shots..."

Nope, the undisputed champion in that category is James Carville ). You
really have it bad, don't you Glenn VBG
Greg Sefton

In article , Bray Haven says...

Anyone who bases their vote on an academic record is a fool. There are many
brilliant people who weren't into academia and were very successful in bus. &
life.

Well, then we can leave out business success as well, US Grant
was a complete flop there. Truman as well was a bust at selling
hats.

And I suppose we have to leave out military record as well, as
you have so indicated in the trade off between kerry and gwb.

I guess that means we have to choose our politicians based on
brand name recognition. This says that dull-normal IQ movie
stars should be a shoe-in for any elected office.

Hmm. This has been proven correct twice, so far.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 08 Feb 2004 15:19:23 GMT, (Bray Haven) wrote:

"Unfortunately Carl Rove, the
world champion rumor mongering dirty tricks mud slinger is callint the
shots..."

Nope, the undisputed champion in that category is James Carville ). You
really have it bad, don't you Glenn VBG
Greg Sefton

Big gold star.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

In article , Gunner says...

Without the Second Amendment...there would be no First.

You mean, without *guns* there would be no first, or second.

But after they secured those rights, which one did they
put down first on the page?

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Chuckle..the ACLU defends whatever "right of the moment" gives them
the best press and the biggest contributions. Care to provide any 2nd
amendment cases they have taken?

They don't *need* to. They have the NRA for pete's sake.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Tbone says...

I'm curious why you keep using the term "draft dodger" when the guy
was a reservist.

Dale's reply is much more exact and detailed than I could
reasonably do - so by all means read it. But the short
and sweet answer is that his family influence and money
purchased him an undeserved spot in a choice unit, to
prevent him from getting sent overseas.

This would not have been *so* bad if he had taken
good advantage of it and excelled when he was there.
Apparently he did not.

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

"...Carl Rove, ...

... James Carville :...

Big gold star.

Well it's come down to this, we're
giving out medals for the best mud
slinging.

The right thinks the left has the better
one, and deplores it. The left things the
right has that honor, &tc.

In the end, the american people wind up
covered in sh%t.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

It helps if they have nice tits!

Mike Eberlein (mind in the gutter, again!)

jim rozen wrote:

This says that dull-normal IQ movie
stars should be a shoe-in for any elected office.

In article , Gunner says...

I guess I just liked seeing these here again:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed.


Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without
the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by law.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except
in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when
in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any
person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of
life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of
the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the
witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.


Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed
twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no
fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of
the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states
respectively, or to the people.

************************

Now..would you care to discuss which ones the ACLU has ignored?
Remember..google is your friend....

Well, there hasn't been a soldier quartering case in the
courts in quite a few years.....

But as I mentioned before, the NRA is doing a superfine job
of banging the old 2nd drum. Nobody else could come close
to their level of expertise, why even bother trying.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

In article , mikee says...

It helps if they have nice tits!

This says that dull-normal IQ movie
stars should be a shoe-in for any elected office.

Didn't see that photo of Ahnuld in the Daily News,
did you? He sure had ms. Jackson beat in that
department!

=8-O

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Exactly correct!

Mike Eberlein (my Dad used to say "there are only 2 kinds of people in
this world, those who can add and those who can't." He was right)

Bray Haven wrote:

Like I said, if you want odds, buy a lottery ticket.

That's a tax on people who are bad at math ).
Greg Sefton

Maybe not. But we DO have that MF (Saddam). It'll be interesting to see how long
he lasts. The 1000 yard group at the Winnequa Gun Club in Lodi, WI has volunteered
to solve the problem. Smallest 5 shot group at 1000 yards gets 3 shots at Saddam
(at 1000 yards, of course). I've seen these boy shoot, the as*hole doesn't have a
chance.

Mike Eberlein
Gunner wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:51:09 -0600, mikee wrote:

Boy! Talk about a bunch of conspiracy theorists! We've already got Osama and
are just holding him till close to election day so we (Bush) can get great
press??.....Hell, that's not a bad idea, hope it's true, but I doubt it. Too
many people in the U.S (including myself) who would readily waste that MF on
sight, not to mention those in uniform and on duty in Afganistan.

Mike Eberlein

Chuckle..that was the same lame spew the Left tried out when Saddam
was captured. It didnt work then either.

Gunner


Ed Huntress wrote:

"William" wrote in message
news:YacVb.246780$na.409990@attbi_s04...


*If* they pull the Osama-Rabbit out of the hat less than a month
before the election, Bush is a shoe in. I'll put five bucks
on that bet, Ed. If you take that one, we'll need to have some
kind of digital handshake to seal the wager!

Jim


Only if they leave enough time for him to thaw out and don't forget to cut
the toe tag off before the pictures :-)
William....

Haha! Now, that would make a good story.

Ed Huntress

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

We really need to get this thread back on track. Do you recognize the
lathe in the link?:

http://www.adult-movie-clips.org/adu...gh/vera031.jpg

Jester ( a new James Pattterson book. If you haven't read it yet, buy
it and read it., it's very good)

jim rozen wrote:

In article , mikee says...

It helps if they have nice tits!

This says that dull-normal IQ movie
stars should be a shoe-in for any elected office.

Didn't see that photo of Ahnuld in the Daily News,
did you? He sure had ms. Jackson beat in that
department!

=8-O

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , mikee says...

Mike Eberlein (my Dad used to say "there are only 2 kinds of people in
this world, those who can add and those who can't." He was right)

Or, the ever-popular 'three kinds of folks, those who can
do math, and those who can't.'

Jim (that's me)

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:42:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:

Tbone wrote:
Jim
I'm curious why you keep using the term "draft dodger" when the guy
was a reservist.
Reservist make up a large part of the forces in Iraq..are they "draft
dodgers" too??
Doesn't make sense to me!

You must be a youngster, Tbone.

During the Vietnam era, joining the National Guard or Reserve guaranteed
that you were very unlikely to ever see combat. Or leave your home
state, more than likely. It wasn't really a war, you see. We were
merely assisting the RSVN with some training, hardware, and a few
troops. No need to call up the reserves or Guard.

Here's the drill from the '60s. You turn 18, and graduate high school,
you're eligible for the draft. You could, however, enroll in college
and be given a student deferment. But you had to keep your grades up
and make progress, or the college would notify your local draft board.

Or you could, early in the decade, get married. The marriage deferment
fell out of favor, though, so besides marriage, the wife needed to be
pregnant. Serious business.

George W. was about to lose his student deferment. He had been in
school the maximum number of semesters, I think, and had barely kept the
requisite grade point to keep his deferment. But that student deferment
was about to expire. He could either marry an already pregnant female
or join the reserves.

Joining the reserves or National Guard was a real problem for most of
us, though. Since membership in either one almost guaranteed a nice,
safe, uneventful stay here in the states, a LOT of young men saw that as
an attractive option. So all units, nationwide, were entirely, totally
full, with two- to three-year waiting lists. Understandable, right?

Funny thing, though. Regular fellows signed up for the waiting lists,
but they never moved up. Our local Guard unit suddenly became populated
by the sons of postmasters, judges, elected officials, and bank
presidents. Guys, on a lesser scale, like Dan Quail and George W. For
some reason, they didn't have to wait their turn.

My four older brothers simply enlisted when their time came. When my
turn came, the military didn't seem to appreciate the miracles of modern
medicine [a couple of pounds of stainless steel in various joints (metal
working content ;-))]. All my brothers were bright, and ended up doing
technical jobs. Two made careers and retired. They all survived, but
carry scars. No purple hearts, just scars.

George W., two weeks away from losing his student deferment, decided to
join an Air Force reserve unit. A COOL one, with fighters and
everything. Had to to take a test, though. Scored a 25, barely
acceptable. Was sworn in the day he applied. Some anonymous captain
swore him in. A couple of days later, the wing commander reenacted the
swearing-in for the benefit of the press. What do you reckon the odds
are that the reserve unit had a waiting list, full of more qualified
young men?

The military during the Viet Nam era was manned by draftees and
enlistees who found the draft to be a persuasive motivator. Forces were
built up slowly, over years, so the draft worked well. We didn't have a
draft for this Iraq war, nor an army big enough to sustain the
occupation, so activating the Guard and reserves couldn't be avoided.
We may yet see a political price paid for their activation, the price
feared by Johnson and Nixon.

Joining a Guard or reserve unit in the '60s and '70s was an excellent
method of avoiding the draft and combat. 'Taint so, now. But it was
then.

Clear enough?

Dale Scroggins





Nope but wish I could consider 59 a youngster!

Obviously I grew up in that era and had neighbors (when I was a
youngster) that served with the guard in Korea much like Nam.

Had a lot of friends that joined the guard to keep working at their
educations and never heard of "year long waiting list" in Texas anyway
or those guys being called draft dodgers.

There are several things that the admin has done that really **** me
off but coming on with political spin of draft dodger is bull ****.

Clear enough??!!

On 8 Feb 2004 08:41:56 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Chuckle..the ACLU defends whatever "right of the moment" gives them
the best press and the biggest contributions. Care to provide any 2nd
amendment cases they have taken?

They don't *need* to. They have the NRA for pete's sake.

Jim

Then why do we have an "assault rifle" ban?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 8 Feb 2004 08:40:35 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Without the Second Amendment...there would be no First.

You mean, without *guns* there would be no first, or second.

But after they secured those rights, which one did they
put down first on the page?

Jim

And which one is second of the original 10?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

I apologise for this one guys! God dam*ed computers! Doing what they are told,
instead of doing you want them to,

Jester

mikee wrote:

We really need to get this thread back on track. Do you recognize the
lathe in the link?:

http://www.adult-movie-clips.org/adu...gh/vera031.jpg

Jester ( a new James Pattterson book. If you haven't read it yet, buy
it and read it., it's very good)

jim rozen wrote:

In article , mikee says...

It helps if they have nice tits!

This says that dull-normal IQ movie
stars should be a shoe-in for any elected office.

Didn't see that photo of Ahnuld in the Daily News,
did you? He sure had ms. Jackson beat in that
department!

=8-O

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In the end, the american people wind up
covered in sh%t.

Jim

Well then, there must be a pony around here someplace ).
Greg Sefton

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 12:01:21 -0600, mikee wrote:

We really need to get this thread back on track. Do you recognize the
lathe in the link?:

http://www.adult-movie-clips.org/adu...gh/vera031.jpg


If you change the numbers of the jpgs..you will find quite a number
of metalworking related pictures...EG

Oh..and that picture..its obvious that its staged. If he was really a
machinist, he would have been using a floating reamer holder in the
tailstock............

Gunner



Jester ( a new James Pattterson book. If you haven't read it yet, buy
it and read it., it's very good)

jim rozen wrote:

In article , mikee says...

It helps if they have nice tits!

This says that dull-normal IQ movie
stars should be a shoe-in for any elected office.

Didn't see that photo of Ahnuld in the Daily News,
did you? He sure had ms. Jackson beat in that
department!

=8-O

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner says...

Hummmm so what about the 2nd Amendment?

Go back and read my comments. The *entire* bill of
rights. Did you miss that?

Claiming the Liberals have any sense of value for the Constitution ,
beyond trying to find work arounds is hysterically funny.

Which is odd, because any time somebody wants to slap the
"L" label on their opponent, they call them a 'card carrying
member of the ACLU.' Which, last time I checked, was an
organization devoted exclusively to doing what I mentioned
above. Upholding the bill of rights.

Here's a guide to help with the liver-tarry-'un politics of the thing. If
someone supports an individual-RKBA interpretation of the 2nd, they're a
supporter of the Constitution and of civil rights, even if they otherwise
support lynching. If they don't support the individual-RKBA interpretation,
even if they're absolutists and literalists on every other aspect of the
Bill of Rights, they're a totalitarian fascist.

It's really quite simple. I learned this when I was lobbying against gun
control in Trenton.

Ed Huntress