On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 03:42:49 GMT, Gunner
brought forth from the murky depths:

The Vietnam was was not only a watershed in American history..but its
universal unpopularity in the late 60s caused a lot of young men who
were indeed patriotic to review exactly what was being asked of
them..and found it to be wanting.

A****ingMen. I'm glad that circumstances didn't force me into
finally making a choice because I love this country. Since
coming of age, I've too often had a problem with the judgement
of (or lack thereof) the powers that be. They have to stop creating
and promoting terrorists before our country is safer in this world.


--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:51:01 GMT, "Mark Jerde" wrote:
It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.

For my money, and it *is* my money, I'd much prefer politicians who can't
get things done, who haven't developed special relationships, and who
haven't figured out how to spend so damn much of my money.

Gary

(Dan Caster) wrote in message m...

(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message

Well, if you had had his parents and "pull" ... you too might have gone
to Yale & Harvard (private tutors?) ....


My first choice was MIT,

http://www.sos.mtu.edu/ccglba/index.php ?

but my parents wanted me to go somewhere else, and I did.

Quite a few radio preachers hold doctorates from Freedom University
in Florida.
So does that Noah's Ark "creation science" guy that got sued in
Australia for fraud IIRC.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...rk+aus tralia

--
Cliff

My dad, a decorated WWII Marine vet, tried to get me in through his
connections. No go. The list was impossible unless you were the son of a
Congressman, a Senator, or a foreign ambassador.

George W. Bush undoubtedly made the grade in that regard.

Ed Huntress

Not only that, but it was hard to get into a (active) branch other than Army or
Marines then too. My uncle was an Air Farce General & Dad was a Naval officer.
Still wound up in the Army ).
Greg Sefton

In article , Gunner says...

GW strapped on a supersonic aircraft which could have killed him in an
instant.

Too bad he never learned to fly those when he was in his
former training. This was a great photo op, but to suggest
that he was anything other than along for the ride is to
disparage the real pilot who flew him. That man had the
guts to actually take advantage of the training given
him by the air force, and not just hide away until the
smoke cleared in Vietnam.

You could strap GWB onto a space shuttle, that don't
make him an astronaut.

Jim

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In article , Gunner says...

Now would you tell me when Ill be allowed to purchase a H&K G91 in
California?

As soon as the mormons are allowed to have ten wives by law.

Or, as another gent said, as soon as he can marry his own son.

Reasonable

Time

Place

and

Manner

Restrictions.

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If bill clinton, then 'yes.'

If GWB, then "no."

If Kerry, then "this is a stupid issue."

Jim

Well Bill was a D dodger and trashed his country in protests over seas, so I'd
definitely put him in the DD dept. Kerry was in but came jome and trashed his
country and his fellow fighters saying he was ashamed of his "service". Now
he's wearing it like a badge of honor and sliming GW for the very thing he was
encouraging people to do then (and much worse). No, kerry isn't a dodger he's
just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment to the Dem
party, the military & the country. I'm a registered Dem, a VN vet (1Lt, Bronze
star etc) but I'd vote for Saddam before I'd vote for John Kerry. Oops, got a
little carried away there. I wasn't gonna admit that )
Greg Sefton

It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.

-- Mark

And how to milk the taxpayers and squeeze the system for personal gain and how
to keep getting elected on name alone and on and on.
"Re-elect No One"
Greg Sefton

Ed Huntress wrote:

For perspective's sake, and for the record, I agree completely. I've
known a few Congressmen and there is no evidence that they were
corrupt in any conventional way. There are some who are deeply
corrupt, but my bigger concern is that the system itself becomes
corrupt by the machinations of career politicians. They have their
own ways of getting things done, and it includes lots of minor
corruptions, such as heavy-duty logrolling, porkbarrel outrages, and
so on. Petty stuff, but stuff that corrupts the whole process.

It might help to have a limit on the number of generations a family is
allowed to be involved in politics. ;-) http://tinyurl.com/2j4j8

Wayne

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. net...
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed
Huntress
says...

I'm big on the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th. Those guys will take care of
the
rest. g

I always sort of liked the 6th. The story of Gideon Vs Wainright
and how the right to be represented by council came about is one
of my favorite stories. They made a film about it, Gideon's
Trumpet.

Ok, you've got dibs on the 6th. Any others?

Ed Huntress



How about the 10 Commandments? The ones about don't kill and don't
steal seem to be out of favor among the religious right. They tend to
stand
in the way of invading other countries. ;-)

Pete.

"Bray Haven" wrote in message
...

I'm a registered Dem, a VN vet (1Lt, Bronze
star etc) but I'd vote for Saddam before I'd vote for John Kerry. Oops,
got a
little carried away there. I wasn't gonna admit that )

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a registered Republican, but I'd
vote for Saddam before I'd vote for George Bush.

I guess we're both examples of free-thinking politics. g

Ed Huntress

"Peter Reilley" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. net...
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed
Huntress
says...

I'm big on the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th. Those guys will take care of
the
rest. g

I always sort of liked the 6th. The story of Gideon Vs Wainright
and how the right to be represented by council came about is one
of my favorite stories. They made a film about it, Gideon's
Trumpet.

Ok, you've got dibs on the 6th. Any others?

Ed Huntress



How about the 10 Commandments? The ones about don't kill and don't
steal seem to be out of favor among the religious right. They tend to
stand
in the way of invading other countries. ;-)

I'm not sure about the Commandments. I'd want a legal definition of "covet"
first.

Ed Huntress

So this means he is brighter than 85% of the Democrats that say he is stupid?

Dan



(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message

Seems like the his IQ is thought to be about 120 - 125. About 15%
of te US population is brighter by far. He'd never make it into Mensa.

"Dan Caster" wrote in message
m...



(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message

Seems like the his IQ is thought to be about 120 - 125. About 15%
of te US population is brighter by far. He'd never make it into Mensa.



So this means he is brighter than 85% of the Democrats that say he is
stupid?

Dan

But how do you know that the Democrats who say he's stupid aren't the same
ones who are smarter than he is? g

Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

I'm not sure about the Commandments. I'd want a legal definition of "covet"
first.

Nope, not allowed. That would violate the separation
of church and state!



Jim

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In article , Bray Haven says...

No, kerry isn't a dodger he's
just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment ...

Whoa, I thought for a moment you were talking about Rove there.

Jim

==================================================
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On 9 Feb 2004 05:43:10 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Now would you tell me when Ill be allowed to purchase a H&K G91 in
California?

As soon as the mormons are allowed to have ten wives by law.

Or, as another gent said, as soon as he can marry his own son.

Reasonable

Its reasonable in at least 47 other states

Time

Currently

Place

Any gunshow or gunshop

and

Manner

I have a CCW for Buddha's sake. I can carry a concealed 44 Mag if I
want, but cannot buy a simple semiautomatic rifle?

Restrictions.

Are a Liberal invention based on emotional content and the fact the
rifle is black.


Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 9 Feb 2004 05:41:10 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

GW strapped on a supersonic aircraft which could have killed him in an
instant.

Too bad he never learned to fly those when he was in his
former training. This was a great photo op, but to suggest
that he was anything other than along for the ride is to
disparage the real pilot who flew him. That man had the
guts to actually take advantage of the training given
him by the air force, and not just hide away until the
smoke cleared in Vietnam.

You could strap GWB onto a space shuttle, that don't
make him an astronaut.

Jim

Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other
aircraft, any of which could have killed him)..

http://www.danford.net/bushf102.htm

as the author said in his last paragraph....

"If I were judging Bush on his career as an Air Force officer, I would
be inclined to grade him much as his Yale professors did, with a
"gentleman's C" (which in this era of grade inflation would translate
to a B-plus). I can't of course judge him as a pilot, except to doff
the virtual hat to anyone who could handle a supersonic aircraft
without killing himself or a bystander."

Please try to seperate your anti-Bush sentiments from the facts, ok?
Btw..what aircraft do you have time in?


Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. net...
"Peter Reilley" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. net...
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed
Huntress
says...

I'm big on the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th. Those guys will take care
of
the
rest. g

I always sort of liked the 6th. The story of Gideon Vs Wainright
and how the right to be represented by council came about is one
of my favorite stories. They made a film about it, Gideon's
Trumpet.

Ok, you've got dibs on the 6th. Any others?

Ed Huntress



How about the 10 Commandments? The ones about don't kill and don't
steal seem to be out of favor among the religious right. They tend to
stand
in the way of invading other countries. ;-)

I'm not sure about the Commandments. I'd want a legal definition of
"covet"
first.

Ed Huntress


It depends on your viewpoint. If you are a Christian fundamentalist then
you would not use that word. You think more in the term of "God gave me
the right to XXX". That way you are not stealing or killing. God gave
you
the right to do whatever.

However, it you are the other guys then they do "covet" any should suffer
the full wrath of God. Christian fundamentalists are happy to help God
with the wrath part.

This is great, I should have been a theologian.

Pete.

Gunner wrote:
Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other
aircraft, any of which could have killed him)..

You seem to be equating the risk of operating a potentially dangerous
device, with combat risk. OK then, a purple heart for everybody who's
banged their thumb with a hammer. Medal of Valor if you ran your car
into the ditch after one too many.

Wayne

In article , Gunner says...

Ah Jim...Dubya WAS an F-102 pilot ...

Tough to get shot at, in texas.

Jim

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In article , Gunner says...

Restrictions.

Are a Liberal invention ...

Based on the supreme court's views. May be
unfortunate for you, but there they are.
You can't just deny them and make them go away,
for the first, or the second amendment.

Jim

==================================================
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:02:26 GMT, "wmbjk"
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other
aircraft, any of which could have killed him)..

You seem to be equating the risk of operating a potentially dangerous
device, with combat risk. OK then, a purple heart for everybody who's
banged their thumb with a hammer. Medal of Valor if you ran your car
into the ditch after one too many.

Wayne

Blink blink..huh?

Thats quite a strawman you constructed there. Did you get a building
permit and a ERR?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 9 Feb 2004 12:47:29 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Restrictions.

Are a Liberal invention ...

Based on the supreme court's views. May be
unfortunate for you, but there they are.
You can't just deny them and make them go away,
for the first, or the second amendment.

Jim

Which restrictions and which Supreme Court?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 9 Feb 2004 12:43:39 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ah Jim...Dubya WAS an F-102 pilot ...

Tough to get shot at, in texas.

Jim

And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN?

As many in the Guard found out in Iraq, belonging to the Guard, or
the military in general doesnt give you a pass from being put in harms
way.

Ive not doubt Dubya would have bitched and screamed and ****ed and
moaned (like 99% of every troop) when learning he had to go get shot
at..and then gone and done it just like the other 99.99%

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

In article , Gunner says...

And if his squadron had been deployed to RVN?

Yep, 'if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a tea-cart.'
Which is another way of saying the obvious in this
case, which is gwb's dad bought him a slot in that
outfit so he wouldn't *have* to go overseas.

If that problem cropped up again, dad would fix
it up some other way, the same way he did it the
first time, with an application of money or
influence.

Honestly I'm suprised at your naive viewpoint here
on this issue gunner. There's absolutely no
reason in the world that rich folks shouldn't
be allowed to spend their hard inherited money
any way they want! And that includes buying
their son out of combat. This country has a long
histroy of this sort of thing - look back at
the civil war, all one had to do is 'hire'
a substitute to get out of the draft.

Jim

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In article , Gunner says...

Which restrictions and which Supreme Court?

The court, as an institution. Over the years
it has been pretty clear that reasonable time,
place and manner restrictions on things like
free exercise, or free speech, have been
endorsed many many times.

Free speech is not an absolute right. Nor,
apparently is weapons ownership.

This is one of the problems of claiming
equal treatment between the first and second
amemendment - sure the court does place limits
and restrictions on the first. So it makes
sense that they should do the same, to the
second as well.

Or is your position that the second amendment
is somehow more important than the first, and
therefor should be exempt from any interpretation
at all? If that's the case, I *do* claim
equal treatment between the two, because the
first thing in the morning I'm starting the
Dali Jim Llama Church of Metalworking and filing
for tax exempt status. My religion prohibits
paying taxes, of course!

Jim

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Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:02:26 GMT, "wmbjk"
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
Ah Jim...Dubya WAS a F-102 pilot (along with a number of other
aircraft, any of which could have killed him)..

You seem to be equating the risk of operating a potentially dangerous
device, with combat risk. OK then, a purple heart for everybody who's
banged their thumb with a hammer. Medal of Valor if you ran your car
into the ditch after one too many.

Wayne

Blink blink..huh?

Thats quite a strawman you constructed there. Did you get a building
permit and a ERR?

Jeez man, I'd think that you of all people could understand that
argument, since it's *exactly* the kind you use several times each day.
It ought to be hard to imagine anyone who couldn't just admit that GW
used his family's position (aka money) to take the easy way out. But
it's a snap with you, 'cause you're one delu... I mean committed
partisan. If they abolished politics tomorrow and you became a free
agent, you'd be drafted in the first round by the flat earth society. I
can see it now, the latest Gunner commenced thread: "Zogby poll shows
that 97% believe earth is flat, other 3% are gay serial killers" Your
first post : "See, I told you so www.roundersareweenys.com ". Say, isn't
the flat earth society in your neighborhood? What a coinkydink. LOL,
time for a cite! http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html

Wayne

No, kerry isn't a dodger he's
just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment ...

Whoa, I thought for a moment you were talking about Rove there.

Jim

Who's this "Rove" guy?? Is he running for something? You guys are pretty
desperate for someone to trash. )
Greg Sefton

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a registered Republican, but I'd
vote for Saddam before I'd vote for George Bush.

I guess we're both examples of free-thinking politics. g

Ed Huntress

I had a feeling that's what your sentiments were, Ed ). I have a bunch of
disagreements with Dubya but I'll hold my nose and vote for him, just to cancel
out your vote G.
Greg Sefton

Bray Haven wrote:
No, kerry isn't a dodger he's

just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment ...

Whoa, I thought for a moment you were talking about Rove there.

Jim


Who's this "Rove" guy?? Is he running for something? You guys are pretty
desperate for someone to trash. )
Greg Sefton

You better keep up. Carl Rove is the Dubya's political adviser. He and
Cheney are running the country. Rove is the one responsible for
deciding on policies that will solidify the Dubya's hard core political
base and then manipulating the facts to justify their implimentation.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:54:18 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress wrote:

Good points all, and they work for me. I think that career
politicians are the problem. If we had term limits and the kind of
temporary service the FF's envisioned (and, for the most part, what
they practiced) we'd have a more honest government. A somewhat naive
one, and maybe a technically less-competent one, but a more honest
one.

Do term limits /really/ make sense?

Wanted: Pipeline welder. Cannot have more than 5 years experience.

Wanted: Brain surgeon. Cannot have more than 3 years experience.

Wanted: U.S. senator. Cannot have more than 4 years experience.

???

It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.

Indeed it does, Mark. And it's the "developing relationships" part that's
the most corrupting influence on our government. The "learning how to get
things done" part depends on how many corrupting relationships are
controlling the process.

Ed Huntress


HEAR HEAR!!

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:07:41 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:



Mark Jerde wrote:


Do term limits /really/ make sense?

Wanted: Pipeline welder. Cannot have more than 5 years experience.

Wanted: Brain surgeon. Cannot have more than 3 years experience.

Wanted: U.S. senator. Cannot have more than 4 years experience.

???

It takes time to develop relationships, learn how to get things done, etc.


OTOH, the longest serving members of the majority party in congress are
always the biggest pigs at the trough. It does not take a whole lot of
smarts to realize that the cheapest way to stay in office is to bring
home the pork regardless of the best interest of the country.


GREAT POINT Glen!!

"Bray Haven" wrote in message
...
No, kerry isn't a dodger he's
just a disgusting opportunist, gigolo, who is an embarrassment ...

Whoa, I thought for a moment you were talking about Rove there.

Jim

Who's this "Rove" guy?? Is he running for something? You guys are pretty
desperate for someone to trash. )
Greg Sefton

He's the Choreographer and Puppeteer. It's an appointed position.

Ed Huntress

"Bray Haven" wrote in message
...
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a registered Republican, but I'd
vote for Saddam before I'd vote for George Bush.

I guess we're both examples of free-thinking politics. g

Ed Huntress

I had a feeling that's what your sentiments were, Ed ). I have a bunch
of
disagreements with Dubya but I'll hold my nose and vote for him, just to
cancel
out your vote G.
Greg Sefton

Hey, likewise. g

Ed Huntress

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 03:44:13 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 8 Feb 2004 14:51:17 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

What, exactly, was a "draft dodger" in 1970? Would you consider someone
who decided to attend college for the sole reason to avoid military
service a "draft dodger"?

The real question is, what do the *republicans* think is a draft
dodger? The flow chart looks like this:

If bill clinton, then 'yes.'

Clinton went to Europe to do dope, and rape young English girls.

If GWB, then "no."

GW strapped on a supersonic aircraft which could have killed him in an
instant.


If Kerry, then "this is a stupid issue."

Jim

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================================================ ==

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas


And remember in 1994 it was Kerry who said "military service should
not be an issue in a presidental election"!
COURSE he was campaigning for Clinton at the time!

On 9 Feb 2004 05:41:10 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

GW strapped on a supersonic aircraft which could have killed him in an
instant.

Too bad he never learned to fly those when he was in his
former training. This was a great photo op, but to suggest
that he was anything other than along for the ride is to
disparage the real pilot who flew him.
So You suggest he should have flown himself and made a carrier landing
34 years after that training!!???!!
That man had the
guts to actually take advantage of the training given
him by the air force, and not just hide away until the
smoke cleared in Vietnam.

You could strap GWB onto a space shuttle, that don't
make him an astronaut.
Why don't you just say I Hate The Guy and avoid all the BS
rationalizations?

Jim

================================================= =
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================================================= =

GEEZ!

On 9 Feb 2004 12:43:39 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ah Jim...Dubya WAS an F-102 pilot ...

Tough to get shot at, in texas.

Jim

================================================= =
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================================================= =
Tough in Arkansas too!
Remember there were a lot of "unfit" classifications secured with aid
from helpful family doctors.
By the mid sixties anybody that had the chance was avoiding a war run
on lies and deceit.

In article , Tbone says...

You could strap GWB onto a space shuttle, that don't
make him an astronaut.

Why don't you just say I Hate The Guy and avoid all the BS
rationalizations?

I thought that above statement was pretty common sense.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

In article , Tbone says...

And remember in 1994 it was Kerry who said "military service should
not be an issue in a presidental election"!
COURSE he was campaigning for Clinton at the time!

OK then, exactly *which* spin doctor should the voter
believe? You tell me.

Jim

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