In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People in
the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

People in the US have had too much, for too long,
and have lost their perspective. It's time for all of
us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Well Said

Tillman

On 8 Nov 2005 20:47:12 -0800, "mr electron"
wrote:

What were you paying your "trainee"? I worked at a parts jobber and the
management's frequent lament was "why can't we find anyone who shows up
for work?" The $5.20/hr starting wage never once struck them between
the eyes like a brick.

Looking back on it, I think I desguised my stupidity as work ethic ;-)
$14.00/hour.
ERS

Eric R Snow wrote:
On 8 Nov 2005 08:25:52 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Eric R Snow says...

Well, things didn't turn out so well. Even though the guy working for
me was learning, he just couldn't seem to get in a 40 hour week. We
had a talk, and he said he would do better. But finally, even though
he was learning and enjoying it, he just was not dependable. I think
he felt that after he had been here a while it was OK to start being
sloppy about being on time and getting in 40 hours a week. It's too
bad, but I fired him this morning. Maybe I was too lenient which led
to his bad attendance. Whatever. He knew it was coming. I think he was
surprised that I told him to leave at once. I think he was counting on
at least a one week notice. I had considered that, but I know his
heart would not be in his work and so the parts would suffer. I think
that the next person I hire will need to have a little more
experience. And if he or she turns out to be a good employee then I
can start once again with the trainee business.
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

That's a shame, I know you were pleased with his progress.

As an aside, were his absences for good reasons, or just
unexplained?

For example, I know of one company that has a policy of
only giving a half week of vacation if you start after
the middle of the year. This is actually pretty thin if
you are starting a household in a new area, and have to
deal with new vehicle registrations, new utility services,
new medical plans and so on.

Jim
His excuses were lame. Like, "My battery is dead on my motorcycle & it
won't start". Never mind that he has two bikes and a car. Also, he was
getting sick with some sort of ailment about once a week. Always a
surprise. He would be fine one day, wake up really sick the next, and
be fine the next. He was either getting hung over or maybe it was
another drug besides alcohol. Lots of missed mondays. I also explained
up front all the policies I had. And stressed good attendence. In
fact, when someone is late it really ****es me off and I told him up
front that tardiness would not be tolerated. That if he felt that
showing up on time would be a burden that he should not even start
working for me. And you know, it really hurt him, not having 40 hour
work weeks, because I could not give him medical insurance. The
insurance company requires work at least 36 hours a week to be
considered "full time". And there was not one month where his hours
could be averaged to at least 36 hours per week. I shouldn't say any
more. I am really dissapointed in this guy. I guess he'll
figure it out some day.
Eric

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:06:53 -0600, Mike Berger
wrote:

It's not suitable for all businesses, of course, but having flexible
hours has helped us. Some people really are on their own fiscal
schedule, and may not be able to make it in by 8 AM, but they'll
put in ten hours once they get here.
Not this guy. He always made sure he was out the door at 4:00. No
matter what time he arrived.
ERS

Tom Gardner wrote:
I feel for you Eric! In the Cleveland inner city, my track record is a
dismal 1 in 10 for keeping employees. The work ethic today has forced me to
close my entire wood shop, except for one shaper, and outsource all my other
blocks. The more I paid in wages, the sooner their "comfort level" was
reached and the more time they missed. I'm just too old to fight it anymore
I admire your whole philosophy to clone some knowledge. If you learn some
more tricks to handle tardy and absent employees...PLEASE let me know!

"
Hey, what's the story on catching mug shots of your shop thieves?
Please don't tell me that you've procrastinated any longer than
even _I_ do on too many projects.

I have a PC based DVR Geovision system with 16 cameras (I got to build a new
hot-rod PC) and of course, we haven't had a problem since. 4 of the cameras
are outside in vandal resistant heated housings and are VERY visible. As a
bonus, I record every bit of people/production for a month at a time...and I
get to see what the crazy cat does at night...he's an idiot!!!

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message I
hear outsourcing to China and India is popular.


I don't have a market for foreign stuff other than chip brushes and the
Stainless Steel toothbrushes, neither of which is made in the US anymore.
75% of my stuff goes into the food service trade now.

"Mike Berger" wrote in message
...
It's not suitable for all businesses, of course, but having flexible
hours has helped us. Some people really are on their own fiscal
schedule, and may not be able to make it in by 8 AM, but they'll
put in ten hours once they get here.

We have a one-hour swing, 7 to 4:30

It's not a living wage. If a single adult has to live on that
amount alone, he'll probably be homeless. Some people in the
U.S. have too much, but that wealth is not equally distributed.

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

I'm not sure what you'd consider a reasonable wage for someone that's
learning, but in Washington State, where this incident occurred, the minimum
wage is well over $7 hr. I can't help but think that's not bad money for
an unskilled person.

Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People in
the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

In article , Mike Berger says...

It's not a living wage.

This is to some degree dependent on location, but I think
the short answer is, yeah you are correct there in almost
*any* location.

Short of living in a junk car in the parking lot of
your employer, it would be tough to hold down a job
on that money. Have a family on it? Hah.

Jim

I'm not sure what you'd consider a reasonable wage for someone that's
learning, but in Washington State, where this incident occurred, the minimum
wage is well over $7 hr. I can't help but think that's not bad money for
an unskilled person.


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People
in
the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

These, amongst many others, are the people that are making it more expensive
for all of us to live. They generally have no credentials that make them
worth their pay-----and can easily be replaced with anyone off the street.

You want more pay----get an education, so you have something to sell.
You don't want to go to school, or maybe you can't? Then learn a trade and
get good at it. Make yourself into something that can't be replaced by
anyone off the street. Only then are you worth more than minimum wage,
which, in this state (Washington) is totally unreasonably high.

Harold

On 9 Nov 2005 05:29:43 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People in
the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.

In article , Andy Asberry says...

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.

Damn I want to work there. They just show up and eat bon-bons
all day long. Great job, too bad their management screwed it
up and they're going bankrupt.

I meant the job where you do nothing and get paid, but
work for somebody who's still in business.

Harold says those things are out there.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

That argument aside, a high school kid earning $7 an hour is being
supported by parents.

In other words, the

no show up - no pay check - no eat & no place to sleep

connection isn't yet complete enough to sink in... it's more like ah,
what's the big deal, can wait another week to buy that CD...

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

That's free market economics Harold. If they could pay less, they would.

Seems like UPS has decided that if they pay seven bucks an hour, they
get the druggie crowd who shows up at work whenever they feel like it.
Or if not, then they don't.

Short of imposing wage caps I don't think there's much you can do.

It doesn't matter what *you* personally think a living wage is. The
free market does that for the employer. Pay less, and your business
suffers because you either get the loyal idiots that some have complained
about, or the geniuses who all seem to have some sort of wing down over
one issue of another.

You bet UPS drivers are worth that much. But not because I say so.

Because UPS HAS to pay that much to run their business.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:54:24 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People
in
the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

These, amongst many others, are the people that are making it more expensive
for all of us to live. They generally have no credentials that make them
worth their pay-----and can easily be replaced with anyone off the street.

You want more pay----get an education, so you have something to sell.
You don't want to go to school, or maybe you can't? Then learn a trade and
get good at it. Make yourself into something that can't be replaced by
anyone off the street. Only then are you worth more than minimum wage,
which, in this state (Washington) is totally unreasonably high.

Harold

Harold,
I do think 7 bucks an hour is reasonable to get paid for flipping
burgers. At least in WA State. Living expenses are high. The people
who are making this low wage are not to blame for the high cost of
living. I can't see why they have to suffer first when it comes time
to cut costs. And I don't know about your UPS drivers, but the ones
that deliver my stuff are all in good shape because they have to
deliver so many packages. And to top it off, they have all been nice
folks who went out of their way to make sure I got my packages
delivered when I wasn't here. 28 bucks doesn't seem that high to me.
And when I ship UPS I think the prices are reasonable. I can't imagine
ever paying someone who works hard only minimum wage. Frankly, I don't
care if the person is un-skilled with an IQ of 50. If they bust their
butt digging me a ditch while I crank handles then they deserve to be
paid well. If they are a slacker, no matter how educated or smart,
then maybe minimum wage is OK for them. And Harold, since I pay people
like ditch diggers starting at $10.00/hr, I at least put my money
where my mouth is.
Eric R Snow
E T Precision Machine

Andy Asberry wrote:

How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.

Worker *cost* is quite a bit higher than worker *pay*

On 9 Nov 2005 13:15:25 -0800, the renowned jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

That's free market economics Harold. If they could pay less, they would.

Seems like UPS has decided that if they pay seven bucks an hour, they
get the druggie crowd who shows up at work whenever they feel like it.
Or if not, then they don't.

Short of imposing wage caps I don't think there's much you can do.

It doesn't matter what *you* personally think a living wage is. The
free market does that for the employer. Pay less, and your business
suffers because you either get the loyal idiots that some have complained
about, or the geniuses who all seem to have some sort of wing down over
one issue of another.

You bet UPS drivers are worth that much. But not because I say so.

Because UPS HAS to pay that much to run their business.

Jim

I think probably that the International Brotherhood of Teamsters has
something to do with it too.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:58:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"
Hey, what's the story on catching mug shots of your shop thieves?
Please don't tell me that you've procrastinated any longer than
even _I_ do on too many projects.

I have a PC based DVR Geovision system with 16 cameras (I got to build a new
hot-rod PC) and of course, we haven't had a problem since. 4 of the cameras
are outside in vandal resistant heated housings and are VERY visible. As a

That's where you screwed up IMHO. If you'd left them off until you
caught the *******s, you'd have some satisfaction and possible
recovery of some of the stolen items. Now you may never know.
(Unless the idiots think they can beat the cameras, too.)


bonus, I record every bit of people/production for a month at a time...and I

That could be an important item in an insurance claim against you.


get to see what the crazy cat does at night...he's an idiot!!!

Cats are in orbit, that's for sure. vbg


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when an attractive woman enters the room. || Full Website Programming

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 10:22:17 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Mike
Berger quickly quoth:

It's not a living wage. If a single adult has to live on that
amount alone, he'll probably be homeless. Some people in the
U.S. have too much, but that wealth is not equally distributed.

Minimum wage never has been. That's why most people on it have
roommates, housemates, or working partners. Or they live in people's
garage lofts, mother-in-law cottages, shacks, cabins, etc.

As far as I know, it has been that way for all of my adult life.
(I'm 52.)

BTW, isn't "living wage" the term thought up by the folks who
brought us welfare (and all the other social programs which have
never worked?)


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On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:03:40 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Andy
Asberry quickly quoth:

How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.

Hehehe. You don't expect them to lay open their actual costs for
personnel to the public, do you?

SWAG
"Average worker cost" = 90% @ $6.35/hr (aka "workers"), 1% @ $25/hr
(aka "managers", and one CEO at whatever "golden parachute" rate makes
up that last 9% of the booty. /SWAG


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On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:34:15 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Very sorry Eric. You just got a lesson in "the youth of today", but try not
to judge them all by that one example. I endorse your idea of trying to
hire another one. Don't give up on kids, yet. I was once a kid, and look
at how good I turned out!

Bob Swinney

The youth of today are raised by parents who were the youth of
yesterday.

I was talking with a customer and his wife one day. They asked if I
needed any help. Their son wanted to change jobs. They went on and on
about how hard a worker he was; how dependable; never late. I told
them to have him come in for an interview. Mama's exact words, "I'll
tell him tonight. He called in sick and went fishing today!"

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:39:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:



I feel for you Eric! In the Cleveland inner city, my track record is a
dismal 1 in 10 for keeping employees. The work ethic today has forced me to
close my entire wood shop, except for one shaper, and outsource all my other
blocks. The more I paid in wages, the sooner their "comfort level" was
reached and the more time they missed. I'm just too old to fight it anymore
I admire your whole philosophy to clone some knowledge. If you learn some
more tricks to handle tardy and absent employees...PLEASE let me know!

My method to reduce Monday sickness. Pay day is Friday for the
previous week. Checks are cut on Monday. If you work Monday, you can
pick up your check. If not, it goes in the afternoon mail to be
delivered Thursday or Friday.

At first, I thought it might only move the absences to Friday but it
hasn't worked out that way.

Andy Asberry wrote:
On 9 Nov 2005 05:29:43 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...


Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People in
the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim


How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.

I'd say that $65/hr would buy a hell of alot
of robots amortized over 5-7 years....

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...


Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People

in

the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim


Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

That's actually a pretty tough question.

My business *depends* on the UPS driver and even more
so on the FedEx driver. I appreciate it when they
come around at 7PM in the dark a couple of days
before Christmas rather than knocking off and going
home to their family. They are a damn sight more
important than the clowns that drive the little
white and blue Jeeps....

If they doesn't do their job, I'm outa business.

Not that I couldn't name a few employees that are
not worth $28/hr.

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...


Don't hesitate to make a connection between one's worth in production as
opposed to wanting to earn a couple hundred bucks per hour. People

in

the US have had too much, for too long, and have lost their perspective.
It's time for all of us to start realizing that unearned money is not in
anyone's interest---including the recipient.

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim


Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

They do need to be reliable, have initiative and care about the job.
When you have to deal with a bad courier firm you know about it. And if
UPS want to retain their drivers, rather than having their workforce
dominated by young people, they're going to have to pay them a decent
wage so they can support a family. These guys also amass knowledge of
all the difficult-to-find locations in their area, so keeping them
improves the service.

Chris

Andy Asberry wrote:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:39:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I feel for you Eric! In the Cleveland inner city, my track record is a
dismal 1 in 10 for keeping employees. The work ethic today has forced me to
close my entire wood shop, except for one shaper, and outsource all my other
blocks. The more I paid in wages, the sooner their "comfort level" was
reached and the more time they missed. I'm just too old to fight it anymore
I admire your whole philosophy to clone some knowledge. If you learn some
more tricks to handle tardy and absent employees...PLEASE let me know!

My method to reduce Monday sickness. Pay day is Friday for the
previous week. Checks are cut on Monday. If you work Monday, you can
pick up your check. If not, it goes in the afternoon mail to be
delivered Thursday or Friday.

At first, I thought it might only move the absences to Friday but it
hasn't worked out that way.

Checks? Geez, I've been on direct deposit for the past decade. Even my
expense "checks" are direct deposit.

Pete C.

Ignoramus32681 wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:17 -0600, williamhenry wrote:
when I was hired out of high school and had a wife and new baby on the way ,
the shop foreman told me that being on time was mandatory !!

well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired .....
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of an
hour early every day

If I heard that, I would leave that f^&*(g place at the first
opportunity.

i

If I heard that at an interview I'd get up and walk out the door
laughing my ass off. If it was sprung on my at a later point I'd get up
and walk out the door laughing my ass off.

No job is worth that kind of BS regardless of pay and I've left far
better jobs like the part time one that paid me $24/hr to sit at a desk
and surf the 'net all day on Saturdays waiting for the phone to ring. I
could only take that boredom for so long (friggin' Maytag repair man
syndrome) and finally told them they needed to find some actual work to
keep me busy or find someone else.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus32681 wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:17 -0600, williamhenry wrote:

when I was hired out of high school and had a wife and new baby on the way ,
the shop foreman told me that being on time was mandatory !!

well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired .....
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of an
hour early every day

If I heard that, I would leave that f^&*(g place at the first
opportunity.

i


If I heard that at an interview I'd get up and walk out the door
laughing my ass off. If it was sprung on my at a later point I'd get up
and walk out the door laughing my ass off.

Even with a wife and a new baby on the way?
Been there, done that, I'd be on time, at
least until I could get something else lined
up.

No job is worth that kind of BS regardless of pay and I've left far
better jobs like the part time one that paid me $24/hr to sit at a desk
and surf the 'net all day on Saturdays waiting for the phone to ring. I
could only take that boredom for so long (friggin' Maytag repair man
syndrome) and finally told them they needed to find some actual work to
keep me busy or find someone else.

Pete C.

what does full time employment pay in your neck of the woods?

Jim Stewart wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus32681 wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:17 -0600, williamhenry wrote:

when I was hired out of high school and had a wife and new baby on the way ,
the shop foreman told me that being on time was mandatory !!

well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired .....
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of an
hour early every day

If I heard that, I would leave that f^&*(g place at the first
opportunity.

i


If I heard that at an interview I'd get up and walk out the door
laughing my ass off. If it was sprung on my at a later point I'd get up
and walk out the door laughing my ass off.

Even with a wife and a new baby on the way?
Been there, done that, I'd be on time, at
least until I could get something else lined
up.

I don't have any dependents other than my cat and don't plan to have any
dependents any time soon, if ever.

Pete's law: "Don't buy anything that is expensive and high maintenance,
that you'll only get to use occasionally, when you can rent a better
one, for less money, when you'll actually get to use it and not have to
deal with any maintenance"

Applies to tools, women and just about everything else.

Pete C.



No job is worth that kind of BS regardless of pay and I've left far
better jobs like the part time one that paid me $24/hr to sit at a desk
and surf the 'net all day on Saturdays waiting for the phone to ring. I
could only take that boredom for so long (friggin' Maytag repair man
syndrome) and finally told them they needed to find some actual work to
keep me busy or find someone else.

Pete C.

Ignoramus18971 wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:12:22 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:
Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus32681 wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:17 -0600, williamhenry wrote:

when I was hired out of high school and had a wife and new baby on the way ,
the shop foreman told me that being on time was mandatory !!

well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired .....
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of an
hour early every day

If I heard that, I would leave that f^&*(g place at the first
opportunity.

i


If I heard that at an interview I'd get up and walk out the door
laughing my ass off. If it was sprung on my at a later point I'd get up
and walk out the door laughing my ass off.

Even with a wife and a new baby on the way?
Been there, done that, I'd be on time, at
least until I could get something else lined
up.

I would also get something lined up first.

i

Again, no job is worth that kind of BS. If they don't want to do
business in the real world where **** happens and people are late or
out, then I have no interest in doing anything to help support them and
working for them for any length of time would be doing that. I bet they
don't have the same absurd attitude with their machines, expecting them
to never break down and throwing them out if they do.

Pete C.


No job is worth that kind of BS regardless of pay and I've left far
better jobs like the part time one that paid me $24/hr to sit at a desk
and surf the 'net all day on Saturdays waiting for the phone to ring. I
could only take that boredom for so long (friggin' Maytag repair man
syndrome) and finally told them they needed to find some actual work to
keep me busy or find someone else.

Pete C.

--

Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus18971 wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:12:22 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


Ignoramus32681 wrote:


On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:17 -0600, williamhenry wrote:


when I was hired out of high school and had a wife and new baby on the way ,
the shop foreman told me that being on time was mandatory !!

well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired .....
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of an
hour early every day

If I heard that, I would leave that f^&*(g place at the first
opportunity.

i


If I heard that at an interview I'd get up and walk out the door
laughing my ass off. If it was sprung on my at a later point I'd get up
and walk out the door laughing my ass off.

Even with a wife and a new baby on the way?
Been there, done that, I'd be on time, at
least until I could get something else lined
up.

I would also get something lined up first.

i


Again, no job is worth that kind of BS. If they don't want to do
business in the real world where **** happens and people are late or
out, then I have no interest in doing anything to help support them and
working for them for any length of time would be doing that. I bet they
don't have the same absurd attitude with their machines, expecting them
to never break down and throwing them out if they do.

You are entitled to that opinion. I probably
would have agreed with you when I was young
and single and I can afford to agree with you
now that my kid is grown and the house is nearly
paid for. But back when signing the mortage
was fresh in my mind and I had a squawling
1 year old and a nervous wife, I did what I
had to do, which included putting up with
some BS. And I know that my family is better
off because I did.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 03:57:42 GMT, Ignoramus32681
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 03:10:19 GMT, User Example wrote:
I worked at a place like that for 6 yrs. It was called the Navy... well
except they didn't fire you... You just wished they did.

It reminds me... There is a saying... There are worse things than
being single, for example not being single and wishing to be...

i

That's a good one !


"Ignoramus32681" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:17 -0600, williamhenry
wrote:
when I was hired out of high school and had a wife and new baby on the
way ,
the shop foreman told me that being on time was mandatory !!

well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes
late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get
to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired .....
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of
an
hour early every day

If I heard that, I would leave that f^&*(g place at the first
opportunity.

i

I just love those employers that bitch that your 5 minutes late, must
be on some conceded power trip if you asked me. I'm typically their
best employee and do twice as much and break less so they can kiss my
ass on crap like being late. Those are usually the ones that will give
you quarter raises and never go beyond a certain amount hoping you
will quit so they can get another sucker in there for a year or two
before they realize they are being taken also. Not implying anything
to the OP.

BTW, I know a real bi-polar bear and they couldn't keep a job to save
their life. Get a great job and within the first week they need a day
off, next week it's two until they loose the job.

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos
says...

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do
you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7
hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.

That's free market economics Harold. If they could pay less, they would.

Seems like UPS has decided that if they pay seven bucks an hour, they
get the druggie crowd who shows up at work whenever they feel like it.
Or if not, then they don't.

Short of imposing wage caps I don't think there's much you can do.

It is becoming self leveling, thanks to the vast majority of jobs being
exported to other countries. That's one of the *benefits* of unearned
wages. You do recall the closing of many manufacturing plants, I'm sure.
Your job goes south because it can be accomplished elsewhere for a more
reasonable price. Lucky for some folks, their job can't be exported, but
then corporations aren't yet finished coming up with creative ways to cut
costs, are they?


It doesn't matter what *you* personally think a living wage is. The
free market does that for the employer. Pay less, and your business
suffers because you either get the loyal idiots that some have complained
about, or the geniuses who all seem to have some sort of wing down over
one issue of another.

You bet UPS drivers are worth that much. But not because I say so.

Because UPS HAS to pay that much to run their business.

From that I gather you'd like me to believe that such a business seeks those
that will accept the highest of wages, secure in the knowledge that when you
spend enough money, you get the best employees? Why don't they start
paying a quarter million bucks a year, then they can attract people like
Shrub? Sorry, Jim, I don't buy it. Sounds more like union propaganda
than anything.

Unless workers come to terms with being paid a reasonable wage, things as we
know them will collapse, it's only a matter of when. When us common folks
that make little or no money (retired) can't afford to pay their wages, we
quit using their services. The well dries up. I already refuse to pay
for soft drinks at eating establishments. I'm not really interested in
buying a 15 cent drink for a paltry sum of $1.25 (or more). I drink water,
and my pocket and body are all the better for the decision. No, I don't
miss it, and I do it even if the soft drink is included in my order. I've
learned to like it. Interestingly, instead of adding a few cents to the
register for time spent by the server, they now get nothing. The beginning
of the well drying up.

The problem with paying a "living wage" regardless of qualifications is that
young people coming up that have no drive won't lift a finger to better
themselves, trusting gov to provide. Somehow we have to break that
cycle----to encourage young people to become self reliant. Paying them
what, to them, may appear to be a fairly large amount of money hourly isn't
helping. I can see a kid thinking "hey, if I don't get an education or
learn a trade, I'll be stuck in that damned $3/hr. job the rest of my life".
Maybe I'm wrong, but it worked for me. I don't know anyone that was any
lazier than I was as a kid, yet I had the drive to learn a trade. I knew
for sure I didn't want to wash dishes in a cafe for the rest of my life
(which is how I paid for my little 109 Craftsman lathe). No way you'd have
convinced me I should have gone to college, though. My hat's off to those
that have.

Harold

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
snip----

And Harold, since I pay people
like ditch diggers starting at $10.00/hr, I at least put my money
where my mouth is.
Eric R Snow
E T Precision Machine

And what good has it done you? You received roughly the value of minimum
wage, but paid more. Clearly, paying money for unearned effort doesn't
work. Never has, never will. Regardless of how much you pay, they'll
always hope for more, even when they don't improve their performance.
It's the way people are.

Why do we have to have illegal immigrants harvesting our crops? I get the
idea that it's because you can't get our own citizens to do the work----they
can get the same reward for doing nothing (welfare or unemployment
pay)-----which frees them up to smoke dope and watch TV. NO one should be
rewarded for doing nothing. No one.

Don't misunderstand, Eric. I think you did something very
good-----particularly the pay. I started in the trade, in the missile
industry, for $1.50/hr. Your $14 is far better, at least I think it is,
even considering inflation. I think the point I'm trying to make is that
you could have offered $50/hr, you wouldn't have received any better from
this individual. People have been programmed to expect rewards for no
effort. As I've said, we have had too much for too long in this country.
Your generation and mine have never known hardships-------which is my point,
and has been right along. Until we, as a nation, fall to our knees in
hard times, I'm not convinced it will get any better. I hope I can live
long enough to see myself proved right, or wrong.

Harold

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:49:04 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Pete's law: "Don't buy anything that is expensive and high maintenance,
that you'll only get to use occasionally, when you can rent a better
one, for less money, when you'll actually get to use it and not have to
deal with any maintenance"

Applies to tools, women and just about everything else.

Pete C.

"If it flys, floats or ****s, rent, dont buy"


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

That's free market economics Harold. If they could pay less, they would.

Seems like UPS has decided that if they pay seven bucks an hour, they
get the druggie crowd who shows up at work whenever they feel like it.
Or if not, then they don't.

Short of imposing wage caps I don't think there's much you can do.

It doesn't matter what *you* personally think a living wage is. The
free market does that for the employer. Pay less, and your business
suffers because you either get the loyal idiots that some have complained
about, or the geniuses who all seem to have some sort of wing down over
one issue of another.

I agree the free-market should dictate wages. But if that's the case
now, as you mention above, then why do we need a minimum wage?

If companies have to pay things like $28.00/hr to hire a package
delivery guy because the free market dictates it, then, in today's
America, no one who isn't a druggie, a loyal idiot or a genius with an
attitude problem shoud be unemployed.

Unless of course, they have no skills and no motivation to get skills
because can get a bigger check from an entitlement program than they
can while they're working to gain a skill.

I could be wrong, that's just the way I see it.

Tillman

Somehow we have to break that cycle----to encourage young people to become self reliant.

Well said!

Tillman

How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.
Worker *cost* is quite a bit higher than worker *pay*

The cost of employment to an employer in the US is pay + 30%. That
would put the average worker at Delphi at an hourly rate of
$50.00/hour.

Now, it could be that Delphi's cost of employment was higher than 30%,
say, if they had to deal with unions.

Tillman

So... things like that happen, but not often.

Happens a lot more often than most people realize, especially in
consulting practices.

Tillman