In article , rastus says...

This is why GM is now building all of its
engines in china.

Are you sure about the GM engines, Jim? I've never heard that, but if
it's true, it's all the more appalling.

Hi Harold, the reason you haven't heard that is because it isn't true.

OK, you need to go talk to Ed Huntress. Maybe not *all* the
engines, yet. But last year GM opened a state-of-the-art
engine manufacturing facility in Shanghi. The initial statement
was that its output was to be only for cars sold in china.

Then everyone laughed and they said, no that's not really true. We're
exporting most of them to the US market.

If I had a job in a US GM engine plant, I'd be real nervous right
now.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:24:38 -0800, jim rozen wrote:

In article , rastus says...

This is why GM is now building all of its
engines in china.

Are you sure about the GM engines, Jim? I've never heard that, but if
it's true, it's all the more appalling.

Hi Harold, the reason you haven't heard that is because it isn't true.

OK, you need to go talk to Ed Huntress. Maybe not *all* the
engines, yet.

Hi Jim, no need for me to talk to Ed Huntress. I am very familiar with
GM's North American operations.
I was taking issue with your statement "This is why GM is now building
all of its engines in china."
Absolutely not true.

In article , rastus says...

Hi Jim, no need for me to talk to Ed Huntress. I am very familiar with
GM's North American operations.
I was taking issue with your statement "This is why GM is now building
all of its engines in china."

Come back and say that to me in five years.

:^)

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , rastus says...

Hi Jim, no need for me to talk to Ed Huntress. I am very familiar with
GM's North American operations.
I was taking issue with your statement "This is why GM is now building
all of its engines in china."

Come back and say that to me in five years.

:^)

Jim

Would that be the five years of American workers demanding yet more pay,
encouraging GM to send the work there? Get my point? We can do more for
less pay, perhaps keeping the work in our country, or we can do nothing for
no pay when, as you predict, the jobs are all in China.

Thanks, Rastus, for clueing me in. I'd never read of *any* of the engines
being built in China----couldn't begin to imagine that was happening
silently. Don't know how I missed the post from Ed that talked about the
Chine thing, but then I don't always remember where I live, either. sigh.

Harold

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Would that be the five years of American workers demanding yet more pay,
encouraging GM to send the work there? Get my point?

No. Honestly your point is just flat-out wrong in this case, because
GM is taking advantage of a TWENTY TO ONE reduction in labor costs
when they manufacture in china.

There is simply no way that anyone can work for GM in the US at
that rate. So the result is that the company will send the work
overseas.

It doesn't matter how many times the UAW president gets down on
his knees and kisses GM's president's shoes. It doesn't matter
how upstanding and hardworking and willing to do give-backs the
auto workers might be. It doesn't matter if they all sold their
snowmobiles and lived on dog food in cardboard boxes in the
street.

Those jobs are gonna go away, and they won't come back.

It's not a morality issue. Really.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Would that be the five years of American workers demanding yet more pay,
encouraging GM to send the work there? Get my point?

No. Honestly your point is just flat-out wrong in this case, because
GM is taking advantage of a TWENTY TO ONE reduction in labor costs
when they manufacture in china.

There is simply no way that anyone can work for GM in the US at
that rate. So the result is that the company will send the work
overseas.

It doesn't matter how many times the UAW president gets down on
his knees and kisses GM's president's shoes. It doesn't matter
how upstanding and hardworking and willing to do give-backs the
auto workers might be. It doesn't matter if they all sold their
snowmobiles and lived on dog food in cardboard boxes in the
street.

Those jobs are gonna go away, and they won't come back.

It's not a morality issue. Really.

Jim

That's what worries me, frankly. Assuming it does happen, even if the
workers were to show good faith and voluntarily take reductions, I wouldn't
be the happiest guy in town to see them continue the course and eliminate
their plants here. In the long haul, it could end up biting them on the
ass. As Ed said, the wages in China and other countries won't always be
low, and we don't have to drop to their current level----just compromise,
leaving the US corporations a little wiggle room----maybe making different
decisions. Dunno.

I can't help but think that had we been more level headed, years ago, when
Japan started kicking our butts with higher quality and better autos, you'd
think the American worker would have made a decision to keep their jobs
secure by giving a little more, including having more pride in doing a good
job. Industry wide it was a problem. I remember all too well the drive from
the production industries to improve quality---even in the aero-space
industries, which affected me.

As I see it, we've lost something here in the States since WWII. Too bad
we, as a nation, don't pull together to salvage what's left instead of
encourage the hemorrhaging. I don't see how we can recover once all the
steel mills are gone, along with related industries. We'll be at the mercy
of foreign countries for almost everything. They won't have to defeat us in
battle, all they have to do is cut us off from supplies.

I'm not arguing with you, Jim. Really, I'm not. I'm just damned frustrated
at how I'm seeing everything that made this country great go down the tubes,
mostly at our own hand, thanks to greed at all levels. Wish to hell I
had a solution, but I do well just to run my own affairs. Can't imagine
knowing how to solve these problems.

Harold

In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

I can't help but think that had we been more level headed, years ago, when
Japan started kicking our butts with higher quality and better autos, you'd
think the American worker would have made a decision to keep their jobs
secure by giving a little more, including having more pride in doing a good
job. Industry wide it was a problem. I remember all too well the drive from
the production industries to improve quality---even in the aero-space
industries, which affected me.

What the unions need to give up to keep jobs here is OHSA, IRS and all
the other alphabet agencies as well as liberal socialist democrats (and
republicans). Won't happen without a bloody revolution, which will only
happen when we have nothing left to lose.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

I can't help but think that had we been more level headed, years ago, when
Japan started kicking our butts with higher quality and better autos, you'd
think the American worker would have made a decision to keep their jobs
secure by giving a little more, including having more pride in doing a good
job. Industry wide it was a problem. I remember all too well the drive from
the production industries to improve quality---even in the aero-space
industries, which affected me.

Well, look at where ford and GM were making all their money until
recently - the SUV and truck market. There recent run-up in gas
prices was a big trigger for their woes I think. They just never
learned their lesson.

As I see it, we've lost something here in the States since WWII. Too bad
we, as a nation, don't pull together to salvage what's left instead of
encourage the hemorrhaging. I don't see how we can recover once all the
steel mills are gone, along with related industries. We'll be at the mercy
of foreign countries for almost everything. They won't have to defeat us in
battle, all they have to do is cut us off from supplies.

Honestly I think our politicians are letting us down on this. There
has to be some way to provide financial incentives for companies to
keep jobs and manufacturing in the US, and penalties for those who
offshore jobs and import the goods - and boost their profits. Is this
a call for import tarrifs? I don't know, because they're not really
imports if it's an american company....

How about Ed's example of import offsets? For every dollar of goods
we import, china has to import a dollar of ours. Or even, a dime's worth.

I'm not arguing with you, Jim. Really, I'm not. I'm just damned frustrated
at how I'm seeing everything that made this country great go down the tubes,
mostly at our own hand, thanks to greed at all levels. Wish to hell I
had a solution, but I do well just to run my own affairs. Can't imagine
knowing how to solve these problems.

Times change Harold. The companies that offshore are doing what they
have to do, based on the regulatory and financial situation at hand.
The workers are doing what they think, overall, is best for them in the
short term. I would like to think that a *long*-term economic policy,
at the national level, could help to tip the balance even a little bit,
and slow down the bleed-out.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"tillius" wrote

[ snip ]

It's the elitists who run the government.

You don't think people like John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Ted
Kennedy and Hillary Clinton are the same as those elitists?

They have one goal. One purpose. To gain and/or maintain their power.

How do they do that?

By keeping their constituents dependent upon the entitlements THEY can
hand out.

If that wasn't so, surely they would have designed these programs to
really HELP those in need. The fact is, they're not designed that way
and they don't work that way.

Turn a blind eye to the slavery that these people in need have been
sold into is you wish. Unless you're one of the elistists, if you just
sit by, buy their lies, and let them get away with it, you'll end up
one of the slaves as well.

Hell, you're a slave anyway, and if you try to "opt out" they'll send the
"men with guns" to "opt you back in."

There are, however, two ways to successfully "opt out": (1) move to another
country (and be one of their slaves), or (2) drop dead.

-jc-

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
tillius wrote:


If that wasn't so, surely they would have designed these programs to
really HELP those in need. The fact is, they're not designed that way
and they don't work that way.

Turn a blind eye to the slavery that these people in need have been
sold into is you wish. Unless you're one of the elistists, if you just
sit by, buy their lies, and let them get away with it, you'll end up
one of the slaves as well.

What a total crock of ****!

You wish.

I am not on the public dole.

I don't see where anybody said you are.

I have been - when the need was there.
Otherwise I have pulled my weight and have paid my taxes so that others in
need could be helped!

We'd both be better off if you'd be charitable with YOUR OWN resources, and
allow me to do the same with mine. But obviously, you don't trust me to be
charitable, so you subscribe to the notion that I should be FORCED to be
charitable according to YOUR wishes. That, sir, is the very definition of
slavery.

Close to me are several people who are not able to cope with life without
social assistance.

Why is that MY problem?

Their needs are varied - from physical disabibities stemimng from work
related injuries to physical and mental disabilities from birth.

Again, why is that MY problem?

I would rather live in a society that takes care of these people than the
dollar-first uncaring system that the USA exemplifies.

Then why are you here?

In fact - taking care costs less in the long run than ignoring the
problem!
Any minor exploitation of this sort of system is just that - minor.

So when does "minor" become "major"? A penny isn't worth much these days,
but a thousand pennies is ten dollars, a million pennies is ten thousand
dollars, a billion pennies is ten million dollars, ..... But no merchant
should take umbrage if you "short" him a penny or two, right? No employee
of yours should complain if, having earned (say) $100.00, you pay him only
$99.95, right? "After all, it's only a nickel." How many nickels does it
take before "you're talking real money"?

You are perfectly free to accept for yourself less than the value you have
earned. You are NOT free to FORCE me to accept for myself less than the
value I have earned.

Scammers sometimes get caught. So what?
The good outdoes the possible bad.
It is just a matter of administration - cheap at half the price.
Anyone saying different is scamming for their own interests.
The least of our society must have hope.

How many are "have nots" because they cannot? How many are "have nots"
because they WILL NOT?

None are so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

-jc-

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

I can't help but think that had we been more level headed, years ago,
when
Japan started kicking our butts with higher quality and better autos,
you'd
think the American worker would have made a decision to keep their jobs
secure by giving a little more, including having more pride in doing a
good
job. Industry wide it was a problem. I remember all too well the drive
from
the production industries to improve quality---even in the aero-space
industries, which affected me.

Well, look at where ford and GM were making all their money until
recently - the SUV and truck market. There recent run-up in gas
prices was a big trigger for their woes I think. They just never
learned their lesson.

Good example, and not only for the manufacturers. They build what we
demand. How about us? The buying public? How much did we learn? Higher
wages demanded and bigger autos. It's as if we think there's no bottom to
the well. That's the point I've been discussing right along----and it is
pointed at us as a nation------not just the unions----not top
management----we all share the same philosophy, at least from all
appearances. No one is willing to bite the bullet, but we're quickly
running out of ways to avoid doing so. I rember the air traffic
controllers demanding more----and I also remember they lost their ticket
when they refused to bend. As it should have been.

As I see it, we've lost something here in the States since WWII. Too
bad
we, as a nation, don't pull together to salvage what's left instead of
encourage the hemorrhaging. I don't see how we can recover once all the
steel mills are gone, along with related industries. We'll be at the
mercy
of foreign countries for almost everything. They won't have to defeat us
in
battle, all they have to do is cut us off from supplies.

Honestly I think our politicians are letting us down on this. There
has to be some way to provide financial incentives for companies to
keep jobs and manufacturing in the US, and penalties for those who
offshore jobs and import the goods - and boost their profits.

I still can't help but think that had the workers taken a good look at this
long ago and realized what was in store, they could have prevented a lot of
the job losses. That, of course, depended on the corporations doing the
right thing, too. Given recent history, I realize that I'm dreaming. All
they'd have done is line their pockets and shipped the work to other
countries, anyway.

Is this
a call for import tarrifs? I don't know, because they're not really
imports if it's an american company....

How about Ed's example of import offsets? For every dollar of goods
we import, china has to import a dollar of ours. Or even, a dime's worth.


I realize that shipping both directions somewhat equally would be the
solution----but do you think that's going to happen? As quickly as they can
tool up, they start building what ever they import now. I don't see that
changing any time soon. Don't you wonder how long it will be before they
start building serious aircraft, which they now import?

I'm not arguing with you, Jim. Really, I'm not. I'm just damned
frustrated
at how I'm seeing everything that made this country great go down the
tubes,
mostly at our own hand, thanks to greed at all levels. Wish to hell
I
had a solution, but I do well just to run my own affairs. Can't imagine
knowing how to solve these problems.

Times change Harold. The companies that offshore are doing what they
have to do, based on the regulatory and financial situation at hand.
The workers are doing what they think, overall, is best for them in the
short term. I would like to think that a *long*-term economic policy,
at the national level, could help to tip the balance even a little bit,
and slow down the bleed-out.

I can't see that happening without wages being a serious part of the
equation. Seems that's the main attraction----they can get it cheaper over
*there*. Surely our workers wouldn't be willing to sustain a cut of
several hundred percentage points, but I also understand that we can't just
keep doing business as usual. A concerted effort on the part of the
worker to put in a serious day, and to do it for smaller pay might beat the
alternative of being out of a job and having no source of income, with no
hopes of having one. It would also requite that corporations be willing to
compromise somewhat, perhaps settling for smaller profits, and CEO's taking
home less pay as well. Failing to do so, in a sense, they're shooting
themselves in the foot, especially if they're producing consumer items. Who
in hell will buy them when everyone is broke? Must this entire mess undergo
a complete collapse before it can stand up again?

We're living in tough times, Jim. Keep a good thought, we may be in for
some rough times in the near future.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

[ snip ]

I realize you're not fond of SS-----who in hell is?
I didn't want to pay
it, and --------remember-------I was self employed, so my cut was the
whole
magilla-----it was the largest tax I paid for years. It was taken from
me without my permission---on the promise that I'd get it back when I was
old.

Your context suggests that by "SS" you mean "social security". I proceed
based on that assumption.

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

I am. Hope you can still find it in your heart to consider me a
worthy person in spite of the fact I now draw the money.

My opinion of you is neither increased nor decreased. Like most of us, you
were probably deluded into believing that you were "contributing" to "your
own" account, from which you eventually would be allowed to withdraw
portions periodically. But in fact there is no "account" with your name on
it; you have NO balance identifiable as "yours", and never had. When you
die, your heirs will receive nothing from "your balance" because there is
none. ALL of the money you "contributed" over the years was paid out in the
same fiscal period to persons you never knew existed. ALL of the money you
might now receive was and is taken by (threat of) force from persons you
have not, and likely never will, meet. In short, you have transitioned from
"slave" to "slave-holder".

I've done my
best to not be a drag on society----paid taxes, worked all my life without
drawing any subsidies of any kind. I'm entitled to this one.

I beg to differ: You are no more "entitled" to any portion of the fruits of
my labor than I am of yours. To put it bluntly, I do not OWE you so much as
the time of day; nor you, me. That said, if I reach the "magic age" I fully
intend to avail myself of whatever forcibly exacted fruits of the labor of
others the government then in power deems "appropriate" for me.

If that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it.

-jc-

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

\ I realize you're not fond of SS-----who in hell is? I didn't want
to pay
it, and --------remember-------I was self employed, so my cut was the
whole
magilla-----it was the largest tax I paid for years. It was taken
from
me without my permission---on the promise that I'd get it back when I was
old. I am. Hope you can still find it in your heart to consider me
a
worthy person in spite of the fact I now draw the money. I've done my
best to not be a drag on society----paid taxes, worked all my life
without
drawing any subsidies of any kind. I'm entitled to this one.

I think you are doing a public service to drain money from the govt by
any means posible.

Since you are "the government", would you be equally amicable if I were to
personally "pick your pocket"?

We need reform and that only comes in a crisis.
When the system is so bankrupy that the president's paycheck bounces
then and only then will we get reform.

No, we will get reform when we produce reform, and not a moment sooner.

-jc-

"John Chase" wrote in message
.. .
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

[ snip ]

I realize you're not fond of SS-----who in hell is?
I didn't want to pay
it, and --------remember-------I was self employed, so my cut was the
whole
magilla-----it was the largest tax I paid for years. It was taken
from
me without my permission---on the promise that I'd get it back when I
was
old.

Your context suggests that by "SS" you mean "social security". I proceed
based on that assumption.

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by
USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

I am. Hope you can still find it in your heart to consider me a
worthy person in spite of the fact I now draw the money.

My opinion of you is neither increased nor decreased. Like most of us,
you
were probably deluded into believing that you were "contributing" to "your
own" account, from which you eventually would be allowed to withdraw
portions periodically. But in fact there is no "account" with your name
on
it; you have NO balance identifiable as "yours", and never had. When you
die, your heirs will receive nothing from "your balance" because there is
none. ALL of the money you "contributed" over the years was paid out in
the
same fiscal period to persons you never knew existed. ALL of the money
you
might now receive was and is taken by (threat of) force from persons you
have not, and likely never will, meet. In short, you have transitioned
from
"slave" to "slave-holder".

I've done my
best to not be a drag on society----paid taxes, worked all my life
without
drawing any subsidies of any kind. I'm entitled to this one.

I beg to differ: You are no more "entitled" to any portion of the fruits
of
my labor than I am of yours. To put it bluntly, I do not OWE you so much
as
the time of day; nor you, me. That said, if I reach the "magic age" I
fully
intend to avail myself of whatever forcibly exacted fruits of the labor of
others the government then in power deems "appropriate" for me.

If that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it.

-jc-

We're saying the same thing, but you're more eloquent with the words you
choose. I'm in total sympathy. I wanted to opt out of SS, but I wasn't
offered that option, unlike many that were. Government employees, for
example. I worked for Sam for two months (military base as a tool maker),
and didn't have SS deducted from my pay. I hated that damned job and left
as quickly as possible. Back to having my wages stolen. Like you, I gladly
accept what they deem to be my share now. I'd have made other arrangements
given the opportunity. Big brother didn't allow that. I had no choice but to
pay SS taxes, and I paid all of it (15%) when I was self employed.

I understand all too well that the money taken from me didn't go into an
account that bore my name, although they know all too well what I made, and
what I paid. Still do, for that matter.

The system is broken, and has been since Roosevelt. That doesn't mean I
don't want my share now that I've been victimized.

Harold

In article ,
"John Chase" wrote:

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

\ I realize you're not fond of SS-----who in hell is? I didn't want
to pay
it, and --------remember-------I was self employed, so my cut was the
whole
magilla-----it was the largest tax I paid for years. It was taken
from
me without my permission---on the promise that I'd get it back when I was
old. I am. Hope you can still find it in your heart to consider me
a
worthy person in spite of the fact I now draw the money. I've done my
best to not be a drag on society----paid taxes, worked all my life
without
drawing any subsidies of any kind. I'm entitled to this one.

I think you are doing a public service to drain money from the govt by
any means posible.

Since you are "the government", would you be equally amicable if I were to
personally "pick your pocket"?

I am not the govt and have little if any control over the bureaucrats &
politicians who run it and steal my money.

We need reform and that only comes in a crisis.
When the system is so bankrupy that the president's paycheck bounces
then and only then will we get reform.

No, we will get reform when we produce reform, and not a moment sooner.

But the politicians will never produce refore until they see their own
paycheck at risk.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , John Chase says...

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

This is the *biggest* line of horse**** propogated here in
recent times.

Unless you are willing to say that paying *any* income tax is likewise
the same involuntary servitude. g

Social security is a tax to fund an entitlement program. It takes
money from those with money, and gives that money to somebody else.
Nothing more, nothing less. It's not an investment. It's not a
savings plan. It's not an account. There's no ROI. It's a tax,
you have to pay it. The gummint is simply, flat out, taking your
money and giving to somebody else. Full stop.

Get over it.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

I can't help but think that had we been more level headed, years ago,
when
Japan started kicking our butts with higher quality and better autos,
you'd
think the American worker would have made a decision to keep their jobs
secure by giving a little more, including having more pride in doing a
good
job. Industry wide it was a problem. I remember all too well the drive
from
the production industries to improve quality---even in the aero-space
industries, which affected me.

Well, look at where ford and GM were making all their money until
recently - the SUV and truck market. There recent run-up in gas
prices was a big trigger for their woes I think. They just never
learned their lesson.

Good example, and not only for the manufacturers. They build what we
demand. How about us? The buying public? How much did we learn? Higher
wages demanded and bigger autos. It's as if we think there's no bottom to
the well. That's the point I've been discussing right along----and it is
pointed at us as a nation------not just the unions----not top
management----we all share the same philosophy, at least from all
appearances. No one is willing to bite the bullet, but we're quickly
running out of ways to avoid doing so. I rember the air traffic
controllers demanding more----and I also remember they lost their ticket
when they refused to bend. As it should have been.

As I see it, we've lost something here in the States since WWII. Too
bad
we, as a nation, don't pull together to salvage what's left instead of
encourage the hemorrhaging. I don't see how we can recover once all the
steel mills are gone, along with related industries. We'll be at the
mercy
of foreign countries for almost everything. They won't have to defeat us
in
battle, all they have to do is cut us off from supplies.

Honestly I think our politicians are letting us down on this. There
has to be some way to provide financial incentives for companies to
keep jobs and manufacturing in the US, and penalties for those who
offshore jobs and import the goods - and boost their profits.

I still can't help but think that had the workers taken a good look at this
long ago and realized what was in store, they could have prevented a lot of
the job losses. That, of course, depended on the corporations doing the
right thing, too. Given recent history, I realize that I'm dreaming. All
they'd have done is line their pockets and shipped the work to other
countries, anyway.

Is this
a call for import tarrifs? I don't know, because they're not really
imports if it's an american company....

How about Ed's example of import offsets? For every dollar of goods
we import, china has to import a dollar of ours. Or even, a dime's worth.


I realize that shipping both directions somewhat equally would be the
solution----but do you think that's going to happen? As quickly as they can
tool up, they start building what ever they import now. I don't see that
changing any time soon. Don't you wonder how long it will be before they
start building serious aircraft, which they now import?

I'm not arguing with you, Jim. Really, I'm not. I'm just damned
frustrated
at how I'm seeing everything that made this country great go down the
tubes,
mostly at our own hand, thanks to greed at all levels. Wish to hell
I
had a solution, but I do well just to run my own affairs. Can't imagine
knowing how to solve these problems.

Times change Harold. The companies that offshore are doing what they
have to do, based on the regulatory and financial situation at hand.
The workers are doing what they think, overall, is best for them in the
short term. I would like to think that a *long*-term economic policy,
at the national level, could help to tip the balance even a little bit,
and slow down the bleed-out.

I can't see that happening without wages being a serious part of the
equation. Seems that's the main attraction----they can get it cheaper over
*there*. Surely our workers wouldn't be willing to sustain a cut of
several hundred percentage points, but I also understand that we can't just
keep doing business as usual. A concerted effort on the part of the
worker to put in a serious day, and to do it for smaller pay might beat the
alternative of being out of a job and having no source of income, with no
hopes of having one. It would also requite that corporations be willing to
compromise somewhat, perhaps settling for smaller profits, and CEO's taking
home less pay as well. Failing to do so, in a sense, they're shooting
themselves in the foot, especially if they're producing consumer items. Who
in hell will buy them when everyone is broke? Must this entire mess undergo
a complete collapse before it can stand up again?

We're living in tough times, Jim. Keep a good thought, we may be in for
some rough times in the near future.

Harold

One of the biggest problems is that investors and corporate board are
driven to show constant growth as opposed to the stability and
consistent profits of the old days.

Constant growth is simply not sustainable, there is a relatively finite
market for any given product. Corporations found out some years back
that they had reached market saturation on many products.

Lately all this "growth" that they show in the bottom line profit
numbers is not driven by increased sales and market share, but rather by
false profits from outsourcing and layoffs. The very outsourcing and
layoffs they are using to try to fudge the bottom line is also causing a
shrinkage in the market as people who are out of work are buying fewer
products.

When they have outsourced and laid off all they can in a few years there
will be nowhere else for them to create the phony growth from and this
will likely trigger a giant stock market crash when the bottom line
profits go flat on nearly every company.

Pete C.

snip
I think you are doing a public service to drain money from the govt by
any means posible. We need reform and that only comes in a crisis.
When the system is so bankrupy that the president's paycheck bounces
then and only then will we get reform.
===============
It is an unfortunate truth that government in some form is
required to "provide for the common defence, insure domestic
tranquility, etc." Unfortunatly this provides the "government"
(or more exactly the people in government) with the pretexts to
expand indefinatly with logical sounding rationales such as "its
only for the duration of the emergency," "it's for the children,"
and "its a mater of national secutiry."

It is equally true that before an 'intervention' can be done with
a person they must be at or near 'bottom.' It is seldom noted
that many people die at the bottom because of an OD, cirrosis of
the liver, etc, and never 'recover.'

History shows us that even when a 'government' is reformed
[always imposed from the outside] the cure is frequently worse
than the disease, at least in the short term. Examples are the
French and Russian 'corrections' that were hijacked by the most
radical elements and National Socialist Germany where the
'intervention' was stage managed by the NSDAP.

This reminds me of the old joke, "They told me to cheer up,
things could be worse. So I cheered up, and sure enough things
got worse."

When the debt and immigration 'bombs' detonate here, we all will
wish it was 'only' terrorist nukes.

Uncle George

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , John Chase
says...

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by
USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

This is the *biggest* line of horse**** propogated here in
recent times.

Unless you are willing to say that paying *any* income tax is likewise
the same involuntary servitude. g

Social security is a tax to fund an entitlement program. It takes
money from those with money, and gives that money to somebody else.
Nothing more, nothing less. It's not an investment. It's not a
savings plan. It's not an account. There's no ROI. It's a tax,
you have to pay it. The gummint is simply, flat out, taking your
money and giving to somebody else. Full stop.

Get over it.

Jim

That's certainly the way I found it when I wanted to opt out. I couldn't.
You don't pay the *tax*, your property is seized. Simple as that.

Harold

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:11:55 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


History shows us that even when a 'government' is reformed
[always imposed from the outside] the cure is frequently worse
than the disease, at least in the short term. Examples are the
French and Russian 'corrections' that were hijacked by the most
radical elements and National Socialist Germany where the
'intervention' was stage managed by the NSDAP.

It can be worse, or it can be better. Do you think modern day Germany
and Japan are better or worse then before the opening days of WW2?

I think we can safely say there was some outside intervention with
both those countries.......

Gunner


"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams

In article , Pete C. says...

One of the biggest problems is that investors and corporate board are
driven to show constant growth as opposed to the stability and
consistent profits of the old days.

Constant growth is simply not sustainable, there is a relatively finite
market for any given product. Corporations found out some years back
that they had reached market saturation on many products.

Lately all this "growth" that they show in the bottom line profit
numbers is not driven by increased sales and market share, but rather by
false profits from outsourcing and layoffs. The very outsourcing and
layoffs they are using to try to fudge the bottom line is also causing a
shrinkage in the market as people who are out of work are buying fewer
products.

When they have outsourced and laid off all they can in a few years there
will be nowhere else for them to create the phony growth from and this
will likely trigger a giant stock market crash when the bottom line
profits go flat on nearly every company.

Well I'm happy to see that somebody agrees with me about at least *one*
aspect of this issue, namely the fact that if it (offshoring) goes
on long enough, the market for all the imported goods will be just gone
because nobody will have any money to buy any of them, no matter how
cheap or tasty they are.

And there seems to be some resonance likewise, about the issue of
short-term ROI by these companies. Seems like the most often-heard
justification for shutting down manufacturing in the US is "but if
we don't do it, then our competitors will, and they'll take all our
profits then."

The giant stock market crash may well be preceeded by a giant real
estate crash.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Pete C. says...

One of the biggest problems is that investors and corporate board are
driven to show constant growth as opposed to the stability and
consistent profits of the old days.

Constant growth is simply not sustainable, there is a relatively finite
market for any given product. Corporations found out some years back
that they had reached market saturation on many products.

Lately all this "growth" that they show in the bottom line profit
numbers is not driven by increased sales and market share, but rather by
false profits from outsourcing and layoffs. The very outsourcing and
layoffs they are using to try to fudge the bottom line is also causing a
shrinkage in the market as people who are out of work are buying fewer
products.

When they have outsourced and laid off all they can in a few years there
will be nowhere else for them to create the phony growth from and this
will likely trigger a giant stock market crash when the bottom line
profits go flat on nearly every company.

Well I'm happy to see that somebody agrees with me about at least *one*
aspect of this issue, namely the fact that if it (offshoring) goes
on long enough, the market for all the imported goods will be just gone
because nobody will have any money to buy any of them, no matter how
cheap or tasty they are.

And there seems to be some resonance likewise, about the issue of
short-term ROI by these companies. Seems like the most often-heard
justification for shutting down manufacturing in the US is "but if
we don't do it, then our competitors will, and they'll take all our
profits then."

The giant stock market crash may well be preceeded by a giant real
estate crash.

Jim

--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Possibly, but real estate has "real" value vs. amorphous inflated stock
prices. Of course those that purchased real estate in trendy areas at
grossly inflated prices will be screwed, but the rest of us who
purchased modest houses in modest areas should be ok.

Pete C.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 18:32:08 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:11:55 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


History shows us that even when a 'government' is reformed
[always imposed from the outside] the cure is frequently worse
than the disease, at least in the short term. Examples are the
French and Russian 'corrections' that were hijacked by the most
radical elements and National Socialist Germany where the
'intervention' was stage managed by the NSDAP.

It can be worse, or it can be better. Do you think modern day Germany
and Japan are better or worse then before the opening days of WW2?

I think we can safely say there was some outside intervention with
both those countries.......

Gunner
snip
These were more of involuntary commitments to a mental
institution and forced EC [shock] therapy and/or prefrontal
lobotomy by threatened neighbors than self-correction.

When I referred to outside intervention I meant outside the
government but still from within the state.

Governments are in the position of a junky with all the blow they
could ever snort. They have no see no reason to reform and when
they do [for example when their nose falls off] it is too late.

You and I can be shoveling "stuff" against the tide, in that the
"state" as we knew it is "withering away" in the "brave new world
order," just as the medieval baronies, dukedoms, etc. did with
the introduction of the new systems of societal organization such
as mercantealism and then capitalism.

I don't think this is the case, but rather the mover and shakers
selling what they don't own for an immediate and personal profit.

We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse...

Emmo wrote:

We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse...



Move to India? Learn how to manage those Indian groups from here?

Here are some pieces of anecdotal evidence that may brighten your day:

1. A manager friend of mine told me about a year ago that prices for
Indian contract software help has gone up three- or four-fold in the
last five years. Not only that, but nobody over their gives raises so
the price increases are all going to people moving from one company to
another, which means that you can't retain the people on one project for
any length of time.

2. I've had to maintain Indian code and it _stinks_. I don't know how
representative it was of the overall scene, but it had "Job shop"
written all over it; it was obviously written to be thrown away, not
maintained for the long run.

3. Executives in the electronics industry are complaining about the
loss of control over quality and their supply chain that comes from
outsourcing (duh).

I think all of this is going to cause a rebound away from India. I
don't think things will _ever_ go back to the way they were, but I don't
think all the jobs are going to disappear, either.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Emmo wrote:

We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse...





The problem is not specifically a global market of people willing to
work for lower wages, it also relates to the fact that overhead on those
wages is significantly lower. In the quest for short term profits, we
haven't adjusted duties and other penalties on imported goods to match
the costs the we impose on ourselves to work in the USA. Simple
examples are social security, workman's comp, OSHA requirements,
unemployment, and a minimum wage.

Most employeers will tell you off the cuff that a $ 10 per hour employee
actually costs more than $ 15 to cover these costs. Although there are
those who see an "every man for himself" state and want these costs to
go away, I personally believe they are suitable choices for a society.
We've been through times where you were a slave to a corporation due to
no safety net, safety issues weren't addressed and workers were
regurarly injured and just dumped, and senior citizens had nothing to
fall back on.

Step one would be to INCREASE duties to specifically cover these society
imposed costs relative to what is imposed in other countries. The
playing field is not anywhere near level when in addition to labor being
cheaper, you don't have to worry about safety, retirement, polluting,
unemployment, and a host of other things. Tough beans if our exports
are reduced. It's not about the short-run, it's about the long run.
Eventually either the imports will reduce also and producing our own
goods will take their place or the exporters in other countries will
just bite the bullet and acept a more even playing field.

Step two would be a single payer health care system. Yea, the right end
of the scale screams and yells about government control but it works
just fine and is CHEAPER in every country that does it. I have yet to
speak to anyone in a country with a single payer system that would give
it up for the supposed "freedom" of the US health care system.

Koz (who awaits the flamethrowers)

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:47:48 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse...


Greetings Emmo,
I find you post to be somewhat ironic. I started the machinist trainee
thread. I had to fire the trainee because of poor attendance. But I
still want to train someone, maybe lots of someones, to be
metalworkers. Since you are posting to a metalworking newsgroup why
not use your talent to make something out of metal and sell it?
Really. As a smart guy I'm sure if you look around you will find a
product that is not being made. Could be welding on lawnmower decks.
Or welding statues. Maybe custom iron fences and gates. Never mind
about the custom iron work. That's why I bought that plasma cutter.
The key though is manufacturing. Software is cheap to do anywhere in
the world. Almost no expensive tooling. And practically no shipping
cost. And even though everything is being made in China now it doesn't
make econimic sense for tiny run jobs. Like a set of custom gates with
the silhouette of the owner's poodle cut out of a sheet of steel and
beaten with a hammer so that it looks like wrought iron. Make stuff
that is too expensive to make one off in another area and shipped to
the final user destination.
ERS

Eric R Snow wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:47:48 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse...


Greetings Emmo,
I find you post to be somewhat ironic. I started the machinist trainee
thread. I had to fire the trainee because of poor attendance. But I
still want to train someone, maybe lots of someones, to be
metalworkers. Since you are posting to a metalworking newsgroup why
not use your talent to make something out of metal and sell it?
Really. As a smart guy I'm sure if you look around you will find a
product that is not being made. Could be welding on lawnmower decks.
Or welding statues. Maybe custom iron fences and gates. Never mind
about the custom iron work. That's why I bought that plasma cutter.
The key though is manufacturing. Software is cheap to do anywhere in
the world. Almost no expensive tooling. And practically no shipping
cost. And even though everything is being made in China now it doesn't
make econimic sense for tiny run jobs. Like a set of custom gates with
the silhouette of the owner's poodle cut out of a sheet of steel and
beaten with a hammer so that it looks like wrought iron. Make stuff
that is too expensive to make one off in another area and shipped to
the final user destination.
ERS

Have you looked at the stuff coming from China lately? Relatively low
cost stuff that is also heavy, the kind of thing you would expect would
be cheaper to make here than to ship here from China.

I just bought a home gym setup (Weider 4250) on sale for $299 (regular
$399). Shipping weight is listed as 239# and it ships in three boxes. So
for about $1.25 per pound this thing was cut, welded, painted, packaged,
shipped and then had retail processing and markup. How the hell can a US
manufacturer compete with that?

On a related note, the Weider 4250 is quite a value if you have the room
for it. I know most of these things end up collecting dust in a basement
or garage, but I'm in the unique position of working from home full time
so I get a lot of opportunities to spend a few minutes exercising, which
I need since I'm otherwise sitting in front of a computer all day.

Pete C.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to
do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself...


Greetings Emmo,
I find you post to be somewhat ironic. I started the machinist trainee
thread. I had to fire the trainee because of poor attendance. But I
still want to train someone, maybe lots of someones, to be
metalworkers. Since you are posting to a metalworking newsgroup why
not use your talent to make something out of metal and sell it?

Thanx, that is exactly what I am trying to do. To get unstuck, I have just
finished a year and a half of welding classes at the local community
college. I have a full complement of TIG, MIG, & O/A welding equipment,
along with a plasma cutter, horizontal bandsaw, blast cabinet, and all the
grinders, clamps, and tools I need. Starting on 12/1, I am renting space in
a metalworking shop run by a successful young blacksmith/fabricator who has
promised me his extra work. As part of the deal I get to use his iron
worker, and we have already agreed to build a paint booth out behind the
shop.

I have already made some gates for money, some for fun, and I just finished
a job making four sidewalk seating/table units for a restaurant downtown. I
am making furniture for sale in a local store, and I keep bidding all the
work I can find. But this work is pretty thin, right now anyway.

I see two alternatives from he First, I am applying to the Univ of Tx
Masters of Fine Arts program in metal sculpture, (before I went to business
school I went to art school (Museum School in Boston)and have a BFA). This
would give me the credential to teach, which I would like to do. But they
only admit three grad students a year, so I can't plan on that.

The other alternative is light manufacturing, as you have suggested.
Recently, Leigh (catruckman) posted a message here about a trailer hitch
business that a friend of his was selling on eBay. I tried to buy it, but
was outbid in the last second by $100. I have looked at buying 3 other
metal manufacturing opportunities, (wind chimes, outdoor lighting,
motorcycle accessories), and eventually, I hope to find the right one, or
think of it myself. After Burning Man, I thought about making stilts...

FWIW, I continue to make metal art as well. I recently was awarded an
honorable mention at a show, and I am trying to get a show in a
gallery/coffee shop nearby. But this is not practical as a way to earn a
living, as much as I enjoy it. But I have been making art all my life and
always will.

I wish you were in Austin, as I would sign up to be your next trainee, (and
I promise I would show up!). But in any case, I am very open to any ideas,
suggestions, or opportunities to buy or set up a small metal manufacturing
effort. I deeply appreciate your response...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , John Chase
says...

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by
USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

This is the *biggest* line of horse**** propogated here in
recent times.

Unless you are willing to say that paying *any* income tax is likewise
the same involuntary servitude. g

Social security is a tax to fund an entitlement program. It takes
money from those with money, and gives that money to somebody else.
Nothing more, nothing less. It's not an investment. It's not a
savings plan. It's not an account. There's no ROI. It's a tax,
you have to pay it. The gummint is simply, flat out, taking your
money and giving to somebody else. Full stop.

Get over it.

Jim

That's certainly the way I found it when I wanted to opt out. I
couldn't.
You don't pay the *tax*, your property is seized. Simple as that.

Harold

Well I am 53 years old and have something like 4 quarters of SS credit.
Worked all my life too. So there are ways around it
Glenn

"Glenn" wrote in message
...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , John Chase
says...

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by
USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

This is the *biggest* line of horse**** propogated here in
recent times.

Unless you are willing to say that paying *any* income tax is likewise
the same involuntary servitude. g

Social security is a tax to fund an entitlement program. It takes
money from those with money, and gives that money to somebody else.
Nothing more, nothing less. It's not an investment. It's not a
savings plan. It's not an account. There's no ROI. It's a tax,
you have to pay it. The gummint is simply, flat out, taking your
money and giving to somebody else. Full stop.

Get over it.

Jim

That's certainly the way I found it when I wanted to opt out. I
couldn't.
You don't pay the *tax*, your property is seized. Simple as that.

Harold

Well I am 53 years old and have something like 4 quarters of SS credit.
Worked all my life too. So there are ways around it
Glenn


It wasn't to be for me, especially when self employed. I handled a lot of
defense work, and was paid by check from major corporations. I handled no
cash, so hiding money certainly wasn't an option, even if I was so inclined.
Unless I was missing something, there was no way to avoid accounting for my
income. Could be I could have gotten creative and withdrawn funds in any
way but income. Dunno. All that does is send up the red flag that you're
trying to avoid paying your fair share.

I bitched and moaned about SS for years, but now that I'm drawing a little
of it back, the pain has subsided. I can only hope that for those that
have contributed that there will still be something available. None of us
should get ripped off by a system that was doomed to failure from day one.
To me, it appears to be nothing more than a pyramid scheme. A tool used by
certain politicians to buy votes at one point in time.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

It wasn't to be for me, especially when self employed. I handled a lot of
defense work, and was paid by check from major corporations. I handled no
cash, so hiding money certainly wasn't an option, even if I was so inclined.
Unless I was missing something, there was no way to avoid accounting for my
income. Could be I could have gotten creative and withdrawn funds in any
way but income. Dunno. snip


.. A tool used by certain politicians to buy votes at one point in time.

Harold


Harold, were you a sole proprietorship or corporation? As a
corporation, you could have held all your business assets as personal
property and then rented them to the corporation. Rent income is not
subject to social security taxes.


--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

snip
Since you are posting to a metalworking newsgroup why
not use your talent to make something out of metal and sell it?
Really. As a smart guy I'm sure if you look around you will find a
product that is not being made.
snip
and herein lies the tale.... For at least the last 50 years the
American public education systems have been geared to producing
an organizational man that will be 'productive' [only] in large
organizations with no effort [and in some cases discouragment] to
suggest self-employment. For people that like order, stability
and continuity [like politicians and educators] the self-employed
are a cramp ITA because they are always trying something new and
ask too many questions, such as 'what's in it for me."

I don't have a solution to this.

Uncle George

snip
Have you looked at the stuff coming from China lately? Relatively low
cost stuff that is also heavy, the kind of thing you would expect would
be cheaper to make here than to ship here from China.
snip
Another result of deliberately opaque pricing in the "brave new
world order free market."

Transportation costs are far higher that they appear based on
public data such as the cost per barrel of oil. These costs are
subsidized through special tax exemptions, deductions and
exchange rate manipulations, which the the average citizen must
pay for over time. Thus the true cost of imported goods is
concealed.

"Gary Brady" wrote in message
nk.net...
snip----


Harold, were you a sole proprietorship or corporation? As a
corporation, you could have held all your business assets as personal
property and then rented them to the corporation. Rent income is not
subject to social security taxes.


Sole proprietorship was the route I chose. Considering it was many years
ago, I don't recall my rationale, but I think it was the simplest way for
me. I certainly could have been wrong----- I'm as bad at accounting as I
am at making music----my only talent has always been running machines.
Doesn't matter much now that I'm retired and getting that monthly check.
Still, and I know some guys are going to find it hard to believe, I don't
feel real good about collecting the money. I just can't shake that feeling
of charity received, which is not something that I've ever done. As I
stated, with great pride, I've always earned my way in life, and, lacking an
education, by hard work.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Doesn't matter much now that I'm retired and getting that monthly check.
Still, and I know some guys are going to find it hard to believe, I don't
feel real good about collecting the money. I just can't shake that feeling
of charity received, which is not something that I've ever done. As I
stated, with great pride, I've always earned my way in life, and, lacking an
education, by hard work.
Harold

You know, Harold, I've always despised paying into Social Security,
because I've long realized what a bad deal it is, but I've never felt
one shred of negativity toward a guy such as yourself, who's paid into
it all his life. You were forced into a pact with your government,
willing or not, and now I think you should spend that money with a
joyous heart while proclaiming "What a great country this is!"


--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

snip
You know, Harold, I've always despised paying into Social Security,
because I've long realized what a bad deal it is, ....
snip
except in comparison to most corporate defined benefit pension
plans.... under worst case scenerios SS will have the ability to
pay 70% of what they owe in 50 years, which is a lot better than
nothing.

Uncle George

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

You know, Harold, I've always despised paying into Social Security,
because I've long realized what a bad deal it is, ....

snip
except in comparison to most corporate defined benefit pension
plans.... under worst case scenerios SS will have the ability to
pay 70% of what they owe in 50 years, which is a lot better than
nothing.

Uncle George

Well, Unc, I've had my own plan since 1987. It's called saving and
investing. If I take my SS statement and extrapolate it at the same
rate that my own plan has grown, I would *own* 3 times as much money as
I have paid in to SS. That's how bad their plan is. Taking care of
yourself beats SS and the pension plans hands down in my book.

--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
snip---

which is a lot better than nothing.

Uncle George

It certainly is. You'll never know how good it feels to know that the money
shows up on the third Wednesday of each month, insuring we can pay our few
bills and have food to eat. We're not broke, in fact far from it, but the
slightest of things could upset our cart. Having worked damned hard in my
life, and followed prescribed rules and regulations, even when I didn't want
to, and in spite of my queasy stomach each time I get paid, I'm still damned
grateful for the money.

Harold

"Gary Brady" wrote in message
ink.net...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Doesn't matter much now that I'm retired and getting that monthly check.
Still, and I know some guys are going to find it hard to believe, I
don't
feel real good about collecting the money. I just can't shake that
feeling
of charity received, which is not something that I've ever done. As I
stated, with great pride, I've always earned my way in life, and,
lacking an
education, by hard work.
Harold

You know, Harold, I've always despised paying into Social Security,
because I've long realized what a bad deal it is, but I've never felt
one shred of negativity toward a guy such as yourself, who's paid into
it all his life. You were forced into a pact with your government,
willing or not, and now I think you should spend that money with a
joyous heart while proclaiming "What a great country this is!"


--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

My heartfelt thanks. Really!! :-)

Harold