Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #81   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:49:10 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:49:04 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Pete's law: "Don't buy anything that is expensive and high maintenance,
that you'll only get to use occasionally, when you can rent a better
one, for less money, when you'll actually get to use it and not have to
deal with any maintenance"

Applies to tools, women and just about everything else.

Pete C.


"If it flys, floats or ****s, rent, dont buy"


"Do as I say, not as I do." s/ Gunner bseg


P.S: It's "flies", and that's very good advice.


================================================== ============
Like peace and quiet? Buy a phoneless cord.
http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
================================================== ============
  #82   Report Post  
tillius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

The cost of employment...

That actually should say "The AVERAGE cost of employment...


Tillman

  #83   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

You bet UPS drivers are worth that much. But not because I say so.

Because UPS HAS to pay that much to run their business.


From that I gather you'd like me to believe that such a business seeks those
that will accept the highest of wages, secure in the knowledge that when you
spend enough money, you get the best employees?


Not at all.

To put it another way Harold, what you are saying is akin to going into
a bakery and saying "I want to buy a cake."

The guy behind the counter shows you one you like and you say "how
much is it?"

Then he says "It's ten dollars."

You reply "it's only worth five dollars. You're asking too much.
I'll only pay five dollars because I know what it's really worth."

And he says "that's my price. It's ten dollars."

It's a free market. He doesn't have to sell it for what you want
to buy it for. You have to pay what he asks, or go without, or
buy from another shop.

Same with labor.

Guy shows up at the shop. "I'm looking for a job, I need to get 25 per
hour."

You say "this job pays only 7 per hour. You're not worth that much."

He says "thanks, but no thanks."

Because he knows he can get that much at the place down the street,
same as the baker knows you cannot buy a 5 dollar cake down the
street.

This is classic free market economics. What part of it would you
change, and how? Again, UPS has a fully developed HR department that's
paid a bunch to figure out exactly how to get the best employees for
the smallest amount of money. It's what they DO.

If they went in to their boss and said "we just feel like paying a
whole bunch extra so our brother-in-law can get hired into a tasty
featherbed job," they'd be fired out of there so fast your head would
spin. The go in there and give all those powerpoint presentations
explaining exactly why they have to pay 28.000000 per hour in
toledo, and they can get away with 27.99995 in tucumcari.

:^)

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #84   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:03:40 -0600, Andy Asberry
wrote:

How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.


99 employees on $10 / hour ( 20,800 pa )
1 CEO on $5500 / hour ( 11+ million pa )

that averages out at $ 65 per hour ( more or less !)
Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address
  #86   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

It ought to be that simple, but it isn't. For one thing there is the
mimimum wage law. Which is a big help to some, but not necessarily the
person that works for minimum wage. For example you need a ditch dug.
To dig it by hand will take 20 hours. Minmum wage is $5 / hour. The
guy with the backhoe charges you $100. Minimum wage is $ 7.50 and
hour. The guy with the back hoe charges $150.

And then there is the equal opportunity law. Easiest to show you
comply by hiring to quotas.

And then there are government contracts. They are more or less cost
plus percentage contracts. Not stated as such, but never the less. So
there the incentive is to hire the least productive employees and still
keep the contract. Least efficent so more are employed, which means
more overhead workers, the boss is over more people and gets higher
salary.

Lots of distortions.


Dan

jim rozen wrote:


This is classic free market economics. What part of it would you
change, and how? Again, UPS has a fully developed HR department that's
paid a bunch to figure out exactly how to get the best employees for
the smallest amount of money. It's what they DO.


:^)

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


  #87   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos

says...

Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing
that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those
for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate
that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired
out the door.

Jim

Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do

you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7

hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.


That's free market economics Harold. If they could pay less, they would.

Seems like UPS has decided that if they pay seven bucks an hour, they
get the druggie crowd who shows up at work whenever they feel like it.
Or if not, then they don't.

Short of imposing wage caps I don't think there's much you can do.


It is becoming self leveling, thanks to the vast majority of jobs being
exported to other countries. That's one of the *benefits* of unearned
wages. You do recall the closing of many manufacturing plants, I'm sure.
Your job goes south because it can be accomplished elsewhere for a more
reasonable price. Lucky for some folks, their job can't be exported, but
then corporations aren't yet finished coming up with creative ways to cut
costs, are they?


It doesn't matter what *you* personally think a living wage is. The
free market does that for the employer. Pay less, and your business
suffers because you either get the loyal idiots that some have complained
about, or the geniuses who all seem to have some sort of wing down over
one issue of another.

You bet UPS drivers are worth that much. But not because I say so.

Because UPS HAS to pay that much to run their business.


From that I gather you'd like me to believe that such a business seeks those
that will accept the highest of wages, secure in the knowledge that when you
spend enough money, you get the best employees? Why don't they start
paying a quarter million bucks a year, then they can attract people like
Shrub? Sorry, Jim, I don't buy it. Sounds more like union propaganda
than anything.

Unless workers come to terms with being paid a reasonable wage, things as we
know them will collapse, it's only a matter of when. When us common folks
that make little or no money (retired) can't afford to pay their wages, we
quit using their services. The well dries up. I already refuse to pay
for soft drinks at eating establishments. I'm not really interested in
buying a 15 cent drink for a paltry sum of $1.25 (or more). I drink water,
and my pocket and body are all the better for the decision. No, I don't
miss it, and I do it even if the soft drink is included in my order. I've
learned to like it. Interestingly, instead of adding a few cents to the
register for time spent by the server, they now get nothing. The beginning
of the well drying up.

The problem with paying a "living wage" regardless of qualifications is that
young people coming up that have no drive won't lift a finger to better
themselves, trusting gov to provide. Somehow we have to break that
cycle----to encourage young people to become self reliant. Paying them
what, to them, may appear to be a fairly large amount of money hourly isn't
helping. I can see a kid thinking "hey, if I don't get an education or
learn a trade, I'll be stuck in that damned $3/hr. job the rest of my life".
Maybe I'm wrong, but it worked for me. I don't know anyone that was any
lazier than I was as a kid, yet I had the drive to learn a trade. I knew
for sure I didn't want to wash dishes in a cafe for the rest of my life
(which is how I paid for my little 109 Craftsman lathe). No way you'd have
convinced me I should have gone to college, though. My hat's off to those
that have.

Harold


You seem to have no clue how the economy works. I don't claim to be an
expert, but the wages have always been self leveling in any given area
and are linked to inflation.

If you raise the minimum wage, this triggers inflation which raises the
cost of goods, raises other wages that are above the minimum and things
reach the same balance point as before where the same work will buy you
the same goods, only the dollar amounts have changed.

The wages for any particular job in any particular area are directly
linked to the number of people in that area that are able to do the job,
the cost of housing and goods in that area and the collective minimum
quality of life standards that the people who are able to do the job are
willing to live with.

If workers in an are collectively decide that cleaning toilets is a
lousy job and they aren't willing to do it unless it provides them with
a higher quality of life standard then the wages for toilet cleaning
will increase. Only when it is possible to import a steady stream of
cheap labor or export the job can the wages be held down. If a steady
supply of cheap labor can not be brought in then the wages will rise
since once you bring that cheap labor into the area it is only a matter
of time before they also demand better pay.

There is indeed a problem with work ethic in the US today, but it has
little to do with "unearned money". In any true free market economy,
wages will always be driven to a level that will sustain a reasonable
quality of life. When the free market economy in one area is linked to
economies in vastly different areas (ex. India) and to economies that
are not free markets (ex. China) then the system breaks down.

Pete C.
  #88   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

tillius wrote:

That's free market economics Harold. If they could pay less, they would.


Seems like UPS has decided that if they pay seven bucks an hour, they
get the druggie crowd who shows up at work whenever they feel like it.
Or if not, then they don't.


Short of imposing wage caps I don't think there's much you can do.


It doesn't matter what *you* personally think a living wage is. The
free market does that for the employer. Pay less, and your business
suffers because you either get the loyal idiots that some have complained
about, or the geniuses who all seem to have some sort of wing down over
one issue of another.


I agree the free-market should dictate wages. But if that's the case
now, as you mention above, then why do we need a minimum wage?

If companies have to pay things like $28.00/hr to hire a package
delivery guy because the free market dictates it, then, in today's
America, no one who isn't a druggie, a loyal idiot or a genius with an
attitude problem shoud be unemployed.

Unless of course, they have no skills and no motivation to get skills
because can get a bigger check from an entitlement program than they
can while they're working to gain a skill.

I could be wrong, that's just the way I see it.

Tillman


The entire purpose of a minimum wage is to "buy" votes for a politician
or political party. Due to the self leveling nature of a true free
market economy any increase in a minimum wage will be erased within a
year or two. Any increase in a minimum wage only serves to buy votes by
providing a very short lived artificial increase in the apparent
standard of living.

The problem we have now is that we are no longer in a true free market
economy. With globalization and the outsourcing of jobs to countries
that either have vastly different conditions or do not have free market
economies at all, our economy is no longer a free market. When the wages
for a give job are no longer tied to the cost of living in the area the
job services, then the feedback system is broken.

Pete C.
  #89   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:36:38 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
snip----

And Harold, since I pay people
like ditch diggers starting at $10.00/hr, I at least put my money
where my mouth is.
Eric R Snow
E T Precision Machine


And what good has it done you? You received roughly the value of minimum
wage, but paid more. Clearly, paying money for unearned effort doesn't
work. Never has, never will. Regardless of how much you pay, they'll
always hope for more, even when they don't improve their performance.
It's the way people are.

Harold,
The point wasn't that more money was going to make this guy work
better. He was just one sample of people who work for a living. The
point is that I believe the job was worth 14 bucks an hour. So anyone
who does this job for me should earn that much. If they don't earn it
then they are fired. Which is what happened. On the other hand, if the
person earns the money then they keep the job.
Eric
Why do we have to have illegal immigrants harvesting our crops? I get the
idea that it's because you can't get our own citizens to do the work----they
can get the same reward for doing nothing (welfare or unemployment
pay)-----which frees them up to smoke dope and watch TV. NO one should be
rewarded for doing nothing. No one.

Don't misunderstand, Eric. I think you did something very
good-----particularly the pay. I started in the trade, in the missile
industry, for $1.50/hr. Your $14 is far better, at least I think it is,
even considering inflation. I think the point I'm trying to make is that
you could have offered $50/hr, you wouldn't have received any better from
this individual. People have been programmed to expect rewards for no
effort. As I've said, we have had too much for too long in this country.
Your generation and mine have never known hardships-------which is my point,
and has been right along. Until we, as a nation, fall to our knees in
hard times, I'm not convinced it will get any better. I hope I can live
long enough to see myself proved right, or wrong.

Harold


  #90   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
snip----

And Harold, since I pay people
like ditch diggers starting at $10.00/hr, I at least put my money
where my mouth is.
Eric R Snow
E T Precision Machine


And what good has it done you? You received roughly the value of minimum
wage, but paid more. Clearly, paying money for unearned effort doesn't
work. Never has, never will. Regardless of how much you pay, they'll
always hope for more, even when they don't improve their performance.
It's the way people are.


Nope. I expect to be paid a wage that will provide for a standard of
living that I consider to be appropriate for the effort and skills I
bring to the job. This means that I expect raises that match inflation
and some additional raise that accounts for long term loyalty,
reliability and continuous increase in skills.


Why do we have to have illegal immigrants harvesting our crops? I get the
idea that it's because you can't get our own citizens to do the work----they
can get the same reward for doing nothing (welfare or unemployment
pay)-----which frees them up to smoke dope and watch TV. NO one should be
rewarded for doing nothing. No one.


You get the wrong impression. We have illegal immigrants harvesting our
crops because in many cases they are willing to endure all kinds of
abuse in order to be able to send their meager wages back to support
their families who are still in another country where the meager US wage
can actually support a family. Eliminate that link, have the family in
the US and that wage will no longer support them and the worker will no
longer be willing to work for that artificially low wage.


Don't misunderstand, Eric. I think you did something very
good-----particularly the pay. I started in the trade, in the missile
industry, for $1.50/hr. Your $14 is far better, at least I think it is,
even considering inflation. I think the point I'm trying to make is that
you could have offered $50/hr, you wouldn't have received any better from
this individual. People have been programmed to expect rewards for no
effort.


If he offered $50/hr vs. $14/hr he would have had more qualified
candidates to choose from and would not have hired this particular one.
The gamble he made was that he would be able to find a less experienced
candidate that he could train to do the job and that he could pay less
than he would have to pay for a candidate that already possessed the
necessary skills. He lost the gamble, simple as that. If the had offered
an appropriate wage for a reliable experienced machinist, he would have
been able to hire one. Had his gamble paid off his profit would have
been the ability to have this worker perform a given job at a lower than
market rate for some period of time. He would eventually have to pay
this worker the going market rate or they would leave to work somewhere
else.

As I've said, we have had too much for too long in this country.
Your generation and mine have never known hardships-------which is my point,
and has been right along. Until we, as a nation, fall to our knees in
hard times, I'm not convinced it will get any better. I hope I can live
long enough to see myself proved right, or wrong.

Harold


What we have had for too long is not too much, it has been artificially
low prices for some goods due to various manipulation of the free
market. If we were not able to import and abuse a continuous stream of
illegal immigrants to harvest our crops we would have to pay workers a
fair market market wage to do that work which would increase the cost of
the food. If we were not able to export jobs we would have to pay
workers in this country a fair market wage which would increase the cost
of the products or services derived from those jobs.

Pete C.


  #91   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Ignoramus26750 wrote:

On 10 Nov 2005 05:21:56 -0800, tillius wrote:
So... things like that happen, but not often.


Happens a lot more often than most people realize, especially in
consulting practices.


I guess that you are right.

i


You are confusing worker cost with worker wages, they are not the same
thing. Worker cost includes benefits, workers comp and unemployment
insurance costs, various taxes and other costs that are not part of
worker wages. That $65/hr average worker cost likely equates to and
average wage of $30/hr and that average is also likely very misleading
with the bulk of the workers probably making $10/hr and a small number
making $30/hr or similar.

Pete C.
  #92   Report Post  
Brian Lawson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:34:15 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Very sorry Eric. You just got a lesson in "the youth of today", but try not
to judge them all by that one example. I endorse your idea of trying to
hire another one. Don't give up on kids, yet. I was once a kid, and look
at how good I turned out!

I always recall the way a Supervisor at Chrysler would state
"penalties" for same actions, or in-actions, requiring some sort of
discipline....for instance, catching two employees, one senior and one
junior, maybe caught smoking in a corner that was a forbidden area....
For the senior employee (one over 35), a three-day suspension

For the junior, work an extra shift, and two weekends.

I think the part that hurts most, for most of us, is that you've
mis-judged a character, either as good or bad. That hurts you
personally either way, and makes you somewhat self-doubting for the
next go-round.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
  #93   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

In article , Pete C. says...

...I expect to be paid a wage that will provide for a standard of
living that I consider to be appropriate for the effort and skills I
bring to the job. ...


Appropriate - based on the job and where it is located, of course.

By 'appropriate' you mean, in line with what other folks doing the
same job, with the same skill set, in the same area, are being paid.

Also how motivated you are to move to another area, where the same
set of conditions results in a higher pay rate.

I think the discussion of minimum wages are really a red herring here.
Most of the jobs we're talking about are skilled and have larger pay
rates associated with them. Minimum wage laws are one step short
of welfare rules - designed to see that somebody who works can actually
live on the wage.

I class them in with child labor laws.

You can make the same argument with them as with the minimum wage
laws: we should abolish them, it would make more jobs overall and provides
families with income.

An employer might create a job if he could hire a laborer for $1 per hour
instead of being constrained by the $7 min wage rate. By the same
token he would create a 50 cent per hour job for an 8-year old if
he weren't constrained by the child labor laws.

So we should repeal them, too, right?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #94   Report Post  
tillius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Worker *cost* is quite a bit higher than worker *pay*

Yes, often by more than 2:1, especially in the US, which lacks
medicare for workers.


Wow, a burden rate of 100%? I've not seen that high a burden rate,
although I'm sure with unions involved it's entirely possible. Part of
my job for the past 20 years has been building cost models for
contracts, and that has been for several different employers. All of
those employers had burden rates of between 28% and 31%.
I can't provide a cite where that rate is a national average, it's just
what I've seen from experience.

Tillman

  #95   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

SNIP
Don't misunderstand, Eric. I think you did something very
good-----particularly the pay. I started in the trade, in the missile
industry, for $1.50/hr. Your $14 is far better, at least I think it is,
even considering inflation. I think the point I'm trying to make is that
you could have offered $50/hr, you wouldn't have received any better from
this individual. People have been programmed to expect rewards for no
effort.


If he offered $50/hr vs. $14/hr he would have had more qualified
candidates to choose from and would not have hired this particular one.
The gamble he made was that he would be able to find a less experienced
candidate that he could train to do the job and that he could pay less
than he would have to pay for a candidate that already possessed the
necessary skills. He lost the gamble, simple as that. If the had offered
an appropriate wage for a reliable experienced machinist, he would have
been able to hire one. Had his gamble paid off his profit would have
been the ability to have this worker perform a given job at a lower than
market rate for some period of time. He would eventually have to pay
this worker the going market rate or they would leave to work somewhere
else.

SNIP

Pete,
You obviously missed the point of my decision to hire the trainee in
the first place. Maybe you didn't read the thread from the beginning.
I wanted to pass the trade to the next generation. I think the USA
needs skilled machinists. And the lack of skilled manual labor is now
hurting the USA and in the future will cause even more problems. The
reason I hired this guy in the first place was to teach someone to be
a machinist. At least, what I know about being a machinist. He would
eventually have to work at other shops to get a better education. So
the gamble was not that I thought I could train someone for cheap and
reap the rewards of this cheap labor. The gamble was whether the guy
would learn and whether he would put forth the effort to give me 40
hours a week of his time while I paid him to both make parts and to
learn the trade. In fact, I lost money on several of the jobs he did.
I expected this. I had planned for this. That's why I carefully
interviewed him and why I called his last employer. He was
enthusiastic at first, but after a while it apparently was too much to
ask him to be at the shop 40 hours a week. Hopefully the next person I
hire will have a better work ethic. In the future please make sure
that you really know what you are talking about when you assign
motives to me.
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine


  #96   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:55:26 -0500, Brian Lawson
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:34:15 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Very sorry Eric. You just got a lesson in "the youth of today", but try not
to judge them all by that one example. I endorse your idea of trying to
hire another one. Don't give up on kids, yet. I was once a kid, and look
at how good I turned out!

I always recall the way a Supervisor at Chrysler would state
"penalties" for same actions, or in-actions, requiring some sort of
discipline....for instance, catching two employees, one senior and one
junior, maybe caught smoking in a corner that was a forbidden area....
For the senior employee (one over 35), a three-day suspension

For the junior, work an extra shift, and two weekends.

I think the part that hurts most, for most of us, is that you've
mis-judged a character, either as good or bad. That hurts you
personally either way, and makes you somewhat self-doubting for the
next go-round.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

Greetings Brian,
It did bother me that the guy's character didn't show. To me. It mat
be that I'm not such a good judge of character. So the next hire will
have to prove to me that they are worth the investment. But this
experience will not deter me from trying again to pass the machinist
trade on to another generation.
Cheers,
Eric
  #97   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Pete C. says...

...I expect to be paid a wage that will provide for a standard of
living that I consider to be appropriate for the effort and skills I
bring to the job. ...


Appropriate - based on the job and where it is located, of course.

By 'appropriate' you mean, in line with what other folks doing the
same job, with the same skill set, in the same area, are being paid.

Also how motivated you are to move to another area, where the same
set of conditions results in a higher pay rate.


You just touched on the point I was trying to make. If I were to move to
a different area where the same job would net me an apparent higher
wage, the reality of the situation is that the cost of living in that
area would also be higher so the net result would be the same standard
of living for the same work.


I think the discussion of minimum wages are really a red herring here.
Most of the jobs we're talking about are skilled and have larger pay
rates associated with them. Minimum wage laws are one step short
of welfare rules - designed to see that somebody who works can actually
live on the wage.


Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any
minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the
apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation
re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work
to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the
wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same.


I class them in with child labor laws.


Not even remotely similar.


You can make the same argument with them as with the minimum wage
laws: we should abolish them, it would make more jobs overall and provides
families with income.


The only argument I make minimum wage laws is that they are nothing
more than a political trick to buy votes from the gullible.


An employer might create a job if he could hire a laborer for $1 per hour
instead of being constrained by the $7 min wage rate.


Nope, the employer would simply drop wages for the existing workers to
the lowest level he can get away with. An employer will only create new
jobs when there is additional market for their products or services
*and* they can squeeze no more productivity from their existing workers.

An employer will pay as little as they can while being able to hire
workers who are able to do the job and don't have too high a rate of
turnover. An employer who tries to pay less than the area market demands
for a particular job will suffer with low worker productivity and high
turnover.

Jobs are not ever created simply because an employer can hire more
people for the same money. No business that lasts more than a few months
expands unless there is additional demand for their commodity.

By the same
token he would create a 50 cent per hour job for an 8-year old if
he weren't constrained by the child labor laws.

So we should repeal them, too, right?


An entirely different thing from wages.

Pete C.


Jim

--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #98   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Pete C. wrote:

Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any
minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the
apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation
re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work
to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the
wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same.


It sounds like what you are really pointing out, without realizing it,
is that our economy can only function by exploiting some fraction of
the workforce: ie, paying them less than the cost of living.

If that's true, we'll have a problem as soon as the various games we
play to deny it catch up with us.

  #99   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Eric R Snow wrote:

SNIP
Don't misunderstand, Eric. I think you did something very
good-----particularly the pay. I started in the trade, in the missile
industry, for $1.50/hr. Your $14 is far better, at least I think it is,
even considering inflation. I think the point I'm trying to make is that
you could have offered $50/hr, you wouldn't have received any better from
this individual. People have been programmed to expect rewards for no
effort.


If he offered $50/hr vs. $14/hr he would have had more qualified
candidates to choose from and would not have hired this particular one.
The gamble he made was that he would be able to find a less experienced
candidate that he could train to do the job and that he could pay less
than he would have to pay for a candidate that already possessed the
necessary skills. He lost the gamble, simple as that. If the had offered
an appropriate wage for a reliable experienced machinist, he would have
been able to hire one. Had his gamble paid off his profit would have
been the ability to have this worker perform a given job at a lower than
market rate for some period of time. He would eventually have to pay
this worker the going market rate or they would leave to work somewhere
else.

SNIP

Pete,
You obviously missed the point of my decision to hire the trainee in
the first place. Maybe you didn't read the thread from the beginning.
I wanted to pass the trade to the next generation.


Yes and that is also a form of profit. It may not be cash in your
pocket, but you would still have gained by accomplishing something that
made you feel good. It's certainly a worthy goal.

I think the USA
needs skilled machinists.


Absolutely.

And the lack of skilled manual labor is now
hurting the USA and in the future will cause even more problems.


Big time. I try to maintain as diverse a skill set as I can.

The
reason I hired this guy in the first place was to teach someone to be
a machinist. At least, what I know about being a machinist. He would
eventually have to work at other shops to get a better education. So
the gamble was not that I thought I could train someone for cheap and
reap the rewards of this cheap labor.


Not in your case, but certainly a common situation. In your case you
were looking for a different form of profit.

The gamble was whether the guy
would learn and whether he would put forth the effort to give me 40
hours a week of his time while I paid him to both make parts and to
learn the trade. In fact, I lost money on several of the jobs he did.
I expected this. I had planned for this.


Low productivity for a short while is inherent to just about every new
employee. Even the most qualified still need some time to adapt to the
new environment and it's process flow.

That's why I carefully
interviewed him and why I called his last employer. He was
enthusiastic at first, but after a while it apparently was too much to
ask him to be at the shop 40 hours a week. Hopefully the next person I
hire will have a better work ethic.


Interviews and even contacting a previous employer don't necessarily
give you a good picture. Besides the obvious fact that previous
employers are afraid of giving any subjective assessment of the
employee, good or bad for fear of lawsuits, employees are not static and
life situations can change drastically (good and bad) between jobs
making the previous assessment worthless.

Big personal problems can occur that hurts an employees performance even
though at their previous job their performance was stellar. By the same
token, big personal problems that cause poor performance on a previous
job and be resolved and the employees performance on the new job may be
stellar.

In the future please make sure
that you really know what you are talking about when you assign
motives to me.
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine


The motive still remains profit, even if it is emotional vs. monetary.

Pete C.
  #100   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any
minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the
apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation
re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work
to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the
wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same.


It sounds like what you are really pointing out, without realizing it,
is that our economy can only function by exploiting some fraction of
the workforce: ie, paying them less than the cost of living.

If that's true, we'll have a problem as soon as the various games we
play to deny it catch up with us.


Not at all, the point I was making is that when you link out economy to
ones that are not compatible then it "breaks" our economy. Eliminate the
constant influx of illegal immigrants sending money home to their
country, eliminate outsourcing of jobs to other countries and have the
work done in this country and the economy will properly bring itself
back in balance.

When the wages being paid are referenced to the local cost of living and
that local cost of living goes back into the local economy, the feedback
loop is closed and the system balances. Break that feedback loop and the
brown stuff hits the spinning blades.

Pete C.


  #101   Report Post  
Geoff M
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

That "late and you are fired" routine when the shoe is on the other foot?
When machines break down and need fixing, or a big order needs to go out?
I'll bet they complain they can't get anyone to do any extra effort.
It cuts both ways, and being reasonable and flexible is a low cost way to
make employees happy. It goes without saying that if it is abused,
something has to be done.
Geoff
  #102   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

snip-----

As I've said, we have had too much for too long in this country.
Your generation and mine have never known hardships-------which is my

point,
and has been right along. Until we, as a nation, fall to our knees in
hard times, I'm not convinced it will get any better. I hope I can live
long enough to see myself proved right, or wrong.

Harold


What we have had for too long is not too much, it has been artificially
low prices for some goods due to various manipulation of the free
market. If we were not able to import and abuse a continuous stream of
illegal immigrants to harvest our crops we would have to pay workers a
fair market market wage to do that work which would increase the cost of
the food. If we were not able to export jobs we would have to pay
workers in this country a fair market wage which would increase the cost
of the products or services derived from those jobs.

Pete C.


Clearly, a case of one's vantage point, or perspective, at least as I see
it. I see the glass as half full, where you see it as half empty.
Regardless of one's position, any time wages are paid that are beyond value,
inflation can't (and won't) be far behind. We Americans appear to be too
damned stupid to see that we must make compromises, not demand yet more.
This discussion is akin to that of a union man versus one that can't stand a
union. There will never be common ground--------not until the jobs are
all gone, and each party is scratching their heads, wondering where the hell
did everything go? I'm pretty sure I already know.

More later, I have to work on the house I'm building.

Harold


  #103   Report Post  
Rastus
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Eric R Snow wrote:


Pete,
You obviously missed the point of my decision to hire the trainee in
the first place. Maybe you didn't read the thread from the beginning.
I wanted to pass the trade to the next generation. I think the USA
needs skilled machinists.


In my younger years I would have jumped at the opportunity you have given
this guy. You sound like a great boss!
  #104   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Geoff M wrote:

That "late and you are fired" routine when the shoe is on the other foot?
When machines break down and need fixing, or a big order needs to go out?
I'll bet they complain they can't get anyone to do any extra effort.
It cuts both ways, and being reasonable and flexible is a low cost way to
make employees happy. It goes without saying that if it is abused,
something has to be done.
Geoff


If they were to treat their machines like they want to treat their
employees (like garbage), then as soon as their $75,000 machine breaks
down a.k.a. is late to work, they will have to throw it out and get a
new one. Can't tolerate any late to works, regardless of the excuse, no
working on repairing the machine, just throw it out and get a new one...

It's just as ridiculous when it's applied to humans, but more
disgusting. Disposable employees.

Pete C.
  #105   Report Post  
F. George McDuffee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Welcome to the "brave new world order." The people coming into
the workforce have observed how the people that were in the
workforce before them [ilel their parents] have been treated.
They see no reason to make the effort to get into work every day,
on time, ready to go to work [not hungover and with their safety
glasses ...] when they can and most likely will be laid off next
week or even tomorrow. Businesses went for the fast buck and it
is now payback time.

What goes around comes around.

Uncle George



On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:00:28 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Well, things didn't turn out so well. Even though the guy working for
me was learning, he just couldn't seem to get in a 40 hour week. We
had a talk, and he said he would do better. But finally, even though
he was learning and enjoying it, he just was not dependable. I think
he felt that after he had been here a while it was OK to start being
sloppy about being on time and getting in 40 hours a week. It's too
bad, but I fired him this morning. Maybe I was too lenient which led
to his bad attendance. Whatever. He knew it was coming. I think he was
surprised that I told him to leave at once. I think he was counting on
at least a one week notice. I had considered that, but I know his
heart would not be in his work and so the parts would suffer. I think
that the next person I hire will need to have a little more
experience. And if he or she turns out to be a good employee then I
can start once again with the trainee business.
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine




  #106   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:40:51 GMT, Pete C. wrote:

If they were to treat their machines like they want to treat their
employees (like garbage), then as soon as their $75,000 machine breaks
down a.k.a. is late to work, they will have to throw it out and get a
new one. Can't tolerate any late to works, regardless of the excuse, no
working on repairing the machine, just throw it out and get a new one...
It's just as ridiculous when it's applied to humans, but more
disgusting. Disposable employees.


We must be reading different threads. The one I am reading started with
an employer explaining (and lamenting) having to let someone go who had
habitual attendance problems, but who was otherwise quite promising.
What thread are _you_ reading?

  #107   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:40:51 GMT, Pete C. wrote:

If they were to treat their machines like they want to treat their
employees (like garbage), then as soon as their $75,000 machine breaks
down a.k.a. is late to work, they will have to throw it out and get a
new one. Can't tolerate any late to works, regardless of the excuse, no
working on repairing the machine, just throw it out and get a new one...
It's just as ridiculous when it's applied to humans, but more
disgusting. Disposable employees.


We must be reading different threads. The one I am reading started with
an employer explaining (and lamenting) having to let someone go who had
habitual attendance problems, but who was otherwise quite promising.
What thread are _you_ reading?


The portion of the same thread that referenced a particular employer
that had a policy where if you were late for work regardless of the
excuse, you were fired.

"well after a few weeks I had car trouble and came in about 45 minutes
late ,
got called into H.R and was told in no uncertain terms that you only get
to
come in late once

that the second occasion , regardless the reason you would be fired
......
now I knew why all the other guys arrived one half to three quarters of
an
hour early every day"

Pete C.
  #108   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee


Pete C. wrote:


The entire purpose of a minimum wage is to "buy" votes for a politician
or political party. Due to the self leveling nature of a true free
market economy any increase in a minimum wage will be erased within a
year or two.
Pete C.


There can be lasting effects from increasing the minimum wage. The
effects are to change so that the labor is not done by minimum wage
people. It can happen two ways. One is that the U.S. minimum wage
moves jobs off shore. And the other is that it makes it more
economical to use some sort of automation or machinery. So unskilled
jobs as ditch digging become backhoe jobs. Manufacturing jobs go over
seas or as in the case of a company that makes bolts ( Nucor ), the
job becomes so automated that the second and third shifts are only two
guys ( neither of them is a minimum wage job ).


Dan

  #109   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee


Pete C. wrote:
Do
you
feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7

hr
to serve burgers? I don't.

Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't.





Harold


You seem to have no clue how the economy works. I don't claim to be an
expert, but the wages have always been self leveling in any given area
and are linked to inflation.

If you raise the minimum wage, this triggers inflation which raises the
cost of goods, raises other wages that are above the minimum and things
reach the same balance point as before where the same work will buy you
the same goods, only the dollar amounts have changed.



Pete C.


Is a high school kid worth $7 / hour? Well I think they probably are.
When I was in high school, I had a minimum wage job the summer I turned
16. I started at 92.5 cents an hour but the minimum wage went up and
soon I was making over a dollar an hour. I think it jumped a dime to
$1.025 per hour. But exactly how much was I getting? Even at the
lower wage, I was making 18 cokes an hour. Cokes being $.05 at the
time. Today Cokes are at least $.50 from a coke machine. So my wages
were the same as $9 / hour.

At the time tuition at Harvard was $250 a year. Now it is more like
$25,000 a year. So my wages at the time were worth $100 an hour in
terms of college tuition.


Dan

  #110   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Regardless of one's position, any time wages are paid that are beyond value,
inflation can't (and won't) be far behind.


I think that comment serves to show that your position cannot be
correct. The market is so large and so fluid, that the wages
that are paid are, by definition, always at the correct value
level.

You can make the argument that the miniumum wage subverts the
prefection of the marketplace, and you are of course correct,
but the number of true minimum wage jobs out there is pretty
small by comparison to the total number.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


  #111   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

Good concept. However, When I was a plant protection one summer before starting
a contract job - I had 3 insurance policies (medical all of them) (100% of EVERYTHING covered)
Glasses, boots (safety naturally) (uniform) (keeps streets clean and little use) Life insurance
bene's out to all out doors. I was salary, but the workers were hourly. Their contract drove
ours. I got more money then in one summer than I got in the next contractual year.
By far. I only wished I could work there every summer - but to many wanted in on the deal.

This was in 69 - when the cool cars were being taken off the line :-)

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:03:40 -0600, Andy Asberry
wrote:


How about Delphi? Story on their bankruptcy stated average worker cost
was $65 an hour.



99 employees on $10 / hour ( 20,800 pa )
1 CEO on $5500 / hour ( 11+ million pa )

that averages out at $ 65 per hour ( more or less !)
Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #112   Report Post  
carl mciver
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
| You are confusing worker cost with worker wages, they are not the same
| thing. Worker cost includes benefits, workers comp and unemployment
| insurance costs, various taxes and other costs that are not part of
| worker wages. That $65/hr average worker cost likely equates to and
| average wage of $30/hr and that average is also likely very misleading
| with the bulk of the workers probably making $10/hr and a small number
| making $30/hr or similar.
|
| Pete C.

Then there's the figure of what the labor comes out as an hourly part of
the product. Where I work, and this information is _several_ years old, my
employer charged the customer $100/hr for our time. That includes the total
wage package of the employee, as well as the overhead and employees required
to keep that employee on the job and not wasting it doing someone else's job
just so they can do theirs.

  #113   Report Post  
carl mciver
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
| Geoff M wrote:
|
| That "late and you are fired" routine when the shoe is on the other
foot?
| When machines break down and need fixing, or a big order needs to go
out?
| I'll bet they complain they can't get anyone to do any extra effort.
| It cuts both ways, and being reasonable and flexible is a low cost way
to
| make employees happy. It goes without saying that if it is abused,
| something has to be done.
| Geoff
|
| If they were to treat their machines like they want to treat their
| employees (like garbage), then as soon as their $75,000 machine breaks
| down a.k.a. is late to work, they will have to throw it out and get a
| new one. Can't tolerate any late to works, regardless of the excuse, no
| working on repairing the machine, just throw it out and get a new one...
|
| It's just as ridiculous when it's applied to humans, but more
| disgusting. Disposable employees.
|
| Pete C.

Well, I look at it simply. All objects must follow the same laws of
physics as everything else in the world. Humans, on the other hand........

You can hire for the right attitude or you can hire for skills. You can
always give someone skills, but you can't give them the right attitude,
therefore attitude is phenomenally more important than skills. The wrong
attitude is not a deficit that can be corrected by anyone other than the
person with the attitude, and therefore impossible to change in an employee
(not necessarily the case with SWMBO adjusting _your_ attitude!) if they
don't feel like it.

Anyone who has to hire will gladly pay out the nose for an employee with
a great attitude, but it tends to make the rest with attitudes not so great
really hard to deal with, which limits how much you can pay your best
people, unfortunately. That's why many outfits ban discussions about their
pay.

  #114   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:26 GMT, Ignoramus26750
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:14:24 -0800, Eric R Snow wrote:
It did bother me that the guy's character didn't show. To me. It mat
be that I'm not such a good judge of character. So the next hire will
have to prove to me that they are worth the investment. But this
experience will not deter me from trying again to pass the machinist
trade on to another generation.


Eric, your experience is not unusual, do not beat your head over
it. It is hard to be a good judge of character at interviews and most
people are not such. I am sorry if I missed something, but did you
check his references? School grades? Knowledge of some basic math?
Anything that shows that he accomplished at least anything, anywhere?

I am a bad judge of character and try to rely on measurable things.

i

I did check. The most valuable advice (Ithought) was from his foreman
(he was working when I hired him) and his ex-girlfriend. She worked
for me as a temp a couple years ago. She was a hard worker, always on
time, and not afraid to use her intelligence. He got good grades. I
guess the job didn't interest him enough. Maybe he thought he would
like to be a machinist and discovered later that wasn't the case.
ERS
  #115   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:11:32 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Eric R Snow wrote:

SNIP
Don't misunderstand, Eric. I think you did something very
good-----particularly the pay. I started in the trade, in the missile
industry, for $1.50/hr. Your $14 is far better, at least I think it is,
even considering inflation. I think the point I'm trying to make is that
you could have offered $50/hr, you wouldn't have received any better from
this individual. People have been programmed to expect rewards for no
effort.

If he offered $50/hr vs. $14/hr he would have had more qualified
candidates to choose from and would not have hired this particular one.
The gamble he made was that he would be able to find a less experienced
candidate that he could train to do the job and that he could pay less
than he would have to pay for a candidate that already possessed the
necessary skills. He lost the gamble, simple as that. If the had offered
an appropriate wage for a reliable experienced machinist, he would have
been able to hire one. Had his gamble paid off his profit would have
been the ability to have this worker perform a given job at a lower than
market rate for some period of time. He would eventually have to pay
this worker the going market rate or they would leave to work somewhere
else.

SNIP

Pete,
You obviously missed the point of my decision to hire the trainee in
the first place. Maybe you didn't read the thread from the beginning.
I wanted to pass the trade to the next generation.


Yes and that is also a form of profit. It may not be cash in your
pocket, but you would still have gained by accomplishing something that
made you feel good. It's certainly a worthy goal.

I think the USA
needs skilled machinists.


Absolutely.

And the lack of skilled manual labor is now
hurting the USA and in the future will cause even more problems.


Big time. I try to maintain as diverse a skill set as I can.

The
reason I hired this guy in the first place was to teach someone to be
a machinist. At least, what I know about being a machinist. He would
eventually have to work at other shops to get a better education. So
the gamble was not that I thought I could train someone for cheap and
reap the rewards of this cheap labor.


Not in your case, but certainly a common situation. In your case you
were looking for a different form of profit.

The gamble was whether the guy
would learn and whether he would put forth the effort to give me 40
hours a week of his time while I paid him to both make parts and to
learn the trade. In fact, I lost money on several of the jobs he did.
I expected this. I had planned for this.


Low productivity for a short while is inherent to just about every new
employee. Even the most qualified still need some time to adapt to the
new environment and it's process flow.

That's why I carefully
interviewed him and why I called his last employer. He was
enthusiastic at first, but after a while it apparently was too much to
ask him to be at the shop 40 hours a week. Hopefully the next person I
hire will have a better work ethic.


Interviews and even contacting a previous employer don't necessarily
give you a good picture. Besides the obvious fact that previous
employers are afraid of giving any subjective assessment of the
employee, good or bad for fear of lawsuits, employees are not static and
life situations can change drastically (good and bad) between jobs
making the previous assessment worthless.

Big personal problems can occur that hurts an employees performance even
though at their previous job their performance was stellar. By the same
token, big personal problems that cause poor performance on a previous
job and be resolved and the employees performance on the new job may be
stellar.

In the future please make sure
that you really know what you are talking about when you assign
motives to me.
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine


The motive still remains profit, even if it is emotional vs. monetary.

Pete C.

Well Pete, you can parse it any way you want.
ERS


  #116   Report Post  
tillius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

The motive still remains profit, even if it is emotional vs. monetary.

So, isn't that the reason people take risks and start businesses?

I help my 89 year old neighbor by shoveling his driveway when it snows.
Do I profit from it? Well, I feel good about is, so I guess I do. Just
don't call emotional benefit 'profit' too loudly, or those left-wingers
will want to tax you on it.

Tillman

  #117   Report Post  
tillius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

If they were to treat their machines like they want to treat their
employees (like garbage), then as soon as their $75,000 machine breaks
down a.k.a. is late to work, they will have to throw it out and get a
new one. Can't tolerate any late to works, regardless of the excuse, no
working on repairing the machine, just throw it out and get a new one...


Well, I guess if that $75,000 machine was continually breaking down and
causing missed deadlines on a regular basis, the negative impact it
would have on the bottom line, in repair costs, lost production, and
lost jobs because of missed deadlines would soon make it a liability
deserving to be dumped (or sold at a loss, which is more akin to what
happens when an employee is let go. Since most employers don't fire the
chronically tardy, they just lay them off. It costs that company to do
that, in increased unemployment insurance taxes, and in the investment
to find and train a replacement.

Tillman

  #118   Report Post  
Ecnerwal
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

In article ,
Eric R Snow wrote:
She worked
for me as a temp a couple years ago. She was a hard worker, always on
time, and not afraid to use her intelligence.


Sounds like _she_ might make a good machinist trainee...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
  #119   Report Post  
Andy Asberry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:29:59 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Andy Asberry wrote:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:39:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I feel for you Eric! In the Cleveland inner city, my track record is a
dismal 1 in 10 for keeping employees. The work ethic today has forced me to
close my entire wood shop, except for one shaper, and outsource all my other
blocks. The more I paid in wages, the sooner their "comfort level" was
reached and the more time they missed. I'm just too old to fight it anymore
I admire your whole philosophy to clone some knowledge. If you learn some
more tricks to handle tardy and absent employees...PLEASE let me know!

My method to reduce Monday sickness. Pay day is Friday for the
previous week. Checks are cut on Monday. If you work Monday, you can
pick up your check. If not, it goes in the afternoon mail to be
delivered Thursday or Friday.

At first, I thought it might only move the absences to Friday but it
hasn't worked out that way.


Checks? Geez, I've been on direct deposit for the past decade. Even my
expense "checks" are direct deposit.

Pete C.


Not all banks accept direct deposits from other banks. I would love it
but you can't expect an employee to change banks as a condition of
employment.
  #120   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update on machinist trainee

In article , Spehro Pefhany says...

Yes, often by more than 2:1, especially in the US, which lacks
medicare for workers.


This is the number commonly quoted. It's very much
in line with my experiences.

Average *wage* in Delphi's US factories is said to be US $26/hour.

They are offering the UAW "base wages of $9.50/hour for existing low
production workers, $10.50/hour for high production workers, and
$19/hour for skilled trades". Plus they want the workers to pay as
much as $2,500/year single, or $5,000/year for family medical.


Yep.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Machinist trainee success Eric R Snow Metalworking 6 October 12th 05 01:44 AM
CAX, CAD, CAM, CAE, electronics, EDA, LSI, PCB, FPGA, VHDL, & Other Design CDs ::::::: , updated 28/Mar/2005 futa Metalworking 1 April 1st 05 08:36 AM
CAX,CAD,CAM,CAE,electronics,EDA.LSI,PCB,FPGA,VHDL,&Other Design CDs ::::::: , updated 12/Jan/2005 ola Electronics Repair 0 January 14th 05 04:05 PM
dust and my furnace (Update 2) Larry Levinson Woodworking 13 January 22nd 04 05:00 PM
The Machinist (suspense movie) \PrecisionMachinisT\ Metalworking 28 November 7th 03 11:42 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"