"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 14 Nov 2003 19:34:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

Gunner

That was my understanding as well.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
... mike wrote:
MKloepster wrote: snip

Cheap *******s who won't pay the higher cost of skilled American labor
are the ones steering this particular ship; snip

Those cheap *******s are US!!!
How many times have you gone down to the full service store to look at
stuff then called around the discount places to save a penny? WE won't
pay a nickel more than we have to. DEMAND drives the ship. WE won't
buy good stuff, so THEY don't supply good stuff.
....
Sometimes people choose cheap because they are tired of being screwed.

Yep!! Real tired, in fact.
I'm afraid the bulk of us here in the States are in for a wake-up call. We
no longer are an island, not since we started dealing with the entire
planet. How can any of us expect to be paid wages that are three, four,
or fives times greater than those paid in other countries, when those
countries are doing their level best to capture all the production jobs
available? Especially when our government, in all its wisdom, has been
telling us that we are no longer a manufacturing society, but service based,
helping chase the damned jobs away. Seems to me the "service society"

in 1990, Convex management (later part of Hewlett-Packard) told our
engineers that they were competing with their counterparts overseas
whose wages were much lower. the solution was to move _faster_ and
_smarter_ to keep ahead of the, "dragons".

by 1994, many of our engineers were thinking that almost all low tech
manufacturing would move of shore, leaving computers and telcom here.
my question then was, "can this nation survive just by selling each
other information and fast food?"

by 2001, folks were talking about competing "founderies" overseas (for
chip manufacturing). in about 1994 or so, TI built a memory manufacturing
plant in Richardson, Tx, partnering with a Korean(?) co. now there are
overseas competitors for the "Vitesse" type chips (fast).

title, along with the jobs it entails, have been shipped to India. What are
we now going to do to make a living?
As long as the unions and workers insist on more for less, I see everything
slowly leaving our country, everything, that is, but jobs like delivery
drivers, which can be accomplished only on location. Those that remain
....
Until the work force establishes wage equilibrium with other countries, I
see jobs continuing to leave our country wholesale. Sounds to me like
pretty much everyone is going to end up making a lower wage (if they're
fortunate enough to have a job, that is), something in keeping with wages
paid in other countries. It's just a matter of when it happens. Some of
.....
Don't lose site of the fact that regardless of how much a worker gets paid,
it is you, the consumer, that pays the salary. Business will continue to
raise prices to compensate for their increased overhead. They must, or
they go out of business. In the end, we all lose.
.... Didn't
any of us learn anything from the auto industry that shot itself in the foot
in the 70's, and were shamefully embarrassed by the Japanese? All of us
should be ashamed of ourselves for the greed and indifference we have
displayed in our ME FIRST society, with our exorbitant wages and low
quality. Heavy sigh! Rant off. Harold

you cover much ground, Harold, and make concise points. in general,
my opinion as to "why?" this is happening is the fallout of WWII and
certain philosophies adopted in the postwar decades. these were not
owned by any single class: the Marshall Plan, Japanese reconstruction,
the Cold War, and my personal favorite, "the Dale Carnegie methods of
management". the near antipathy of Dale Carnegie, whose name escapes
me, was in postwar Japan, helping them develop a modern base for manu-
facturing.

our leaders came to believe that wars would be avoided by world-wide
development and these "newly developed" nations would help support
our economy and values. we literally gave away most of the base
technologies. later, for fun and profit, many of our successful
companies did the same with advanced technologies. well, enough
time has passed to begin seeing the results, but only the painful
ones. whether or not it leads to world peace is still decades
away. my 2cents for the quarter. grin --Loren

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:26:15 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 14 Nov 2003 19:34:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

Yeah, that's the best way to do it. You can pretend you don't know
what is going on and it gives you some plausibility for denial.



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"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:26:15 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 14 Nov 2003 19:34:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

Yeah, that's the best way to do it. You can pretend you don't know
what is going on and it gives you some plausibility for denial.

VBG!

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

In article , Nick Hull says...

Going to fundamentals, costs are high in the US because we have health
care, social security, a big army, etc.

Could you please explain this to the folks who *don't*
have health or dental insurance, and likewise to those
who are paying social security tax right now, but won't
collect any money from that system before it collapses?

Actually, the SS wrote me a letter telling me that they won't pay me a
single penny in social security when I turn 65 next year.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 14 Nov 2003 19:34:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:
Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals. Gunner

That was my understanding as well. Harold

having lived in So. N.Mexico and being somewhat familiar with
the local situation, the worst offense was not paying withholding
and FICA, even for illegals.

since then, i have assumed that most employers do pay these taxes.
of course an illegal has no claim on benefits. --LOren

It's probable that Sears holds the manufacturer dujur to a
higher level of quality for they're Kenmore label.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Carl Byrns wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:46:39 -0800, JR North
wrote:

I replaced my 30 year old coppertone Kenmore DW (with
reservations) with a top-end Whirlpool unit 5 years ago. It
has worked flawlessly. Kenmore quality seems to be the best,
though. My mom's upright freezer lasted 34 years. My
frig/freezer and washer-dryer set are all going on 14 years,
with no problems. My '82 Kenmore microwave is still going,
although I had to replace the magnetron last year.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Interesting... Kenmore is a 'house brand label' so the appliance could
have been made by any number of manufacturers, including Whirlpool,
Hotpoint (GE), Gibson...

-Carl

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:

"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:07:49 -0800, JR North
wrote:

Carl Byrns wrote:

Interesting... Kenmore is a 'house brand label' so the appliance could
have been made by any number of manufacturers, including Whirlpool,
Hotpoint (GE), Gibson...

-Carl

It's probable that Sears holds the manufacturer dujur to a
higher level of quality for they're Kenmore label.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Could be. MTD's house label power equipment is usually better than
their own stuff.

-Carl

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:38:31 -0500, Jack Erbes
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:26:15 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 14 Nov 2003 19:34:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

Yeah, that's the best way to do it. You can pretend you don't know
what is going on and it gives you some plausibility for denial.

Actually Jack, it means you are minding the law, and letting some
other fellow either follow or break it. Its not your business, its the
other companies problem.

If it were Walmarts problem..then one can make the connection that you
and I are responsible for everything in the chain, when we purchase
goods and services. Are you SURE you want to go there?

Gunner



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"The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption.
The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is
made up of government unions, government dependent professions
(teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and
special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that
feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African Americans
being the most prominent, who are disproportionately invested in government jobs
and in programs that government provides.

" The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as politically feasible,
and use that money to buy as many of the people's votes as possible'.
Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda.
Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed Leftist David Horowitz

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:18:04 -0500, Nick Hull
brought forth from the murky depths:

Actually, the SS wrote me a letter telling me that they won't pay me a
single penny in social security when I turn 65 next year.

Did they say why?

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design

In article , Gunner says...

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

They knew. They've been dinged three times for this
same practice, and I suspect the wiretaps on the
managers' phones indicate that they knew *exactly*
what was going on.

If this is true then they should be fined heavily
for the practice. So much so that whatever economic
incentive to do this is cancelled out - by a factor
of ten or a hundred or so.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gary Coffman says...

There's no other real way to stop this movement of manufacturing
offshore, ...

With one definitive exception.

Once wages are suppressed enough, the market
for all the items that are purchased with
discretionary income will simply go away.

If your customer base that buys cars is
simply not able to buy another car, then
there is no need for you to manufacture
them - in the US, or elsewhere for that
matter.

This strikes me as the ultimate mexican
standoff, and no doubt it will happen
in a gradual, smooth fashion. But my
guess is that all the jobs that are going
to china are gonna eventually (might take
ten years) go the way of those jobs that
went to mexico.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 15 Nov 2003 21:43:01 -0800, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Gary Coffman says...

There's no other real way to stop this movement of manufacturing
offshore, ...

With one definitive exception.

Once wages are suppressed enough, the market
for all the items that are purchased with
discretionary income will simply go away.

If your customer base that buys cars is
simply not able to buy another car, then
there is no need for you to manufacture
them - in the US, or elsewhere for that
matter.

You persist in thinking that manufacturing wages are
the only source of income for Americans (or people of
any other nation). They aren't.

Gary

On 15 Nov 2003 21:33:28 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

They knew. They've been dinged three times for this
same practice, and I suspect the wiretaps on the
managers' phones indicate that they knew *exactly*
what was going on.


You still havent answered the question. When did Wally World hire
illegals?

If this is true then they should be fined heavily
for the practice. So much so that whatever economic
incentive to do this is cancelled out - by a factor
of ten or a hundred or so.

Jim

What practice? So..if you know the kid working behind the counter at
the 7-11 is a wet, are you going to turn around and leave, or are you
gonna get your soda and hotdog anyways?

Think hard, then answer.

Gunner


================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

"The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption.
The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is
made up of government unions, government dependent professions
(teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and
special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that
feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African Americans
being the most prominent, who are disproportionately invested in government jobs
and in programs that government provides.

" The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as politically feasible,
and use that money to buy as many of the people's votes as possible'.
Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda.
Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed Leftist David Horowitz

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:18:04 -0500, Nick Hull
brought forth from the murky depths:

Actually, the SS wrote me a letter telling me that they won't pay me a
single penny in social security when I turn 65 next year.

Did they say why?

They said I didn't contribute enough to qualify, despite quite a few
years at maximum SS tax rate

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , Gunner says...

You still havent answered the question. When did Wally World hire
illegals?

You are being deliberately dense. Of *course* they
throw up their hands and say, "we had NO idea..."
but this has been going on for years. They're
hiring the folks through a shill corporation, they
know it and always have.

What practice? So..if you know the kid working behind the counter at
the 7-11 is a wet, are you going to turn around and leave, or are you
gonna get your soda and hotdog anyways?

The practice of hiring after-hours cleaning crews that
are illegals. The public never sees these folks, they
work after hours. Look there are plenty of companies
out there that *don't* 'look the other way' and why
should wal-mart get a market advantage by shorting the
taxes and worker's comp? The the other big box stores
will say 'hey, we have to do this, too, to compete!'

And to answer your personal question, I've been doing my
damndest to stay away, in droves, to walmart lately.

First it was the enforced, unpaid overtime for their
workers. Now this. Yep, I've been buying my motor
oil in a more 'local' store - which was about the
only thing I ever bought there.

The big push now for walmart is to edge into the grocery
market. They figure with all the advantages they get
from unpaid overtime, and illegal workers, they can
squeeze more profit out of the 'real' grocery stores,
that pay their workers more.

As a famous person once said, shrug.

I see it happening. I don't like it. I try to
avoid buying anything there, and I would tell folks
to try to prevent that corporation from invading
their town if a store like that was planned.

Some locations have succssfully resisted walmarification
in the past, and the corporation has started a touchy
feely PR campaign to try to combat that kind of initiative.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gary Coffman says...

You persist in thinking that manufacturing wages are
the only source of income for Americans (or people of
any other nation). They aren't.

I didn't say "only," but they do contribute. And
remember, it's not _only_ manufacturing jobs going
overseas. A lot of the IT jobs going, and also
even the beginings of an exodus for financial
jobs as well. Imagine anything where the work
product can travel down a network cable - that
job is heading out.

Like Ed says, one manufacturing job supports two
or three other service jobs. The first goes, so
do the ancillary jobs too.

This is going to have some effect on the economy.
I predict over the long run (ten years or so)
that the market for goods and services in the
US is going to shrink - simply because the wage
base is either not growing or actually shrinking.

The companies doing all the "outsourcing"
(ie job emmigration) don't look at ten-year
plans. They need to keep the ROI and the
stock price up for *one* year.

It's big Ponzi scheme. With the US citizens as the
participants - and dupes. Last one out, turn out
the lights.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 16 Nov 2003 08:58:15 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

You still havent answered the question. When did Wally World hire
illegals?

You are being deliberately dense. Of *course* they
throw up their hands and say, "we had NO idea..."
but this has been going on for years. They're
hiring the folks through a shill corporation, they
know it and always have.

What practice? So..if you know the kid working behind the counter at
the 7-11 is a wet, are you going to turn around and leave, or are you
gonna get your soda and hotdog anyways?

The practice of hiring after-hours cleaning crews that
are illegals. The public never sees these folks, they
work after hours. Look there are plenty of companies
out there that *don't* 'look the other way' and why
should wal-mart get a market advantage by shorting the
taxes and worker's comp? The the other big box stores
will say 'hey, we have to do this, too, to compete!'

And to answer your personal question, I've been doing my
damndest to stay away, in droves, to walmart lately.

I'm sorry to interupt here but how can you personally stay away from
Wal*Mart "in droves"? Do you have multiple personality disorder? ;o)
Sue

On 16 Nov 2003 08:58:15 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

You still havent answered the question. When did Wally World hire
illegals?

You are being deliberately dense. Of *course* they
throw up their hands and say, "we had NO idea..."
but this has been going on for years. They're
hiring the folks through a shill corporation, they
know it and always have.

Still havent answered my question. Talk about obtuse. Now..I wonder,
if your dry cleaner is your shill corporation, as is your plumber...

What practice? So..if you know the kid working behind the counter at
the 7-11 is a wet, are you going to turn around and leave, or are you
gonna get your soda and hotdog anyways?

The practice of hiring after-hours cleaning crews that
are illegals. The public never sees these folks, they
work after hours. Look there are plenty of companies
out there that *don't* 'look the other way' and why
should wal-mart get a market advantage by shorting the
taxes and worker's comp? The the other big box stores
will say 'hey, we have to do this, too, to compete!'

Hell man..every low end manual labor entensive company in the US uses
illegal or questionable labor. Economic fact of life. I dont like it,
and would like to see the borders sealed..but if you think its a
conspriatorial problem with Walmart..we need to discuss the Kennedy
assascination....

And to answer your personal question, I've been doing my
damndest to stay away, in droves, to walmart lately.

You are a drove? hummmm how many in a drove anyway? Now about that wet
behind the counter at 7-11, or Starbucks, or.....


First it was the enforced, unpaid overtime for their
workers. Now this. Yep, I've been buying my motor
oil in a more 'local' store - which was about the
only thing I ever bought there.

Vet each of them for a green card? Walmart is guilty of **** worker
employee relations, and thats a fact. However..no one is shackled to
their work area.

The big push now for walmart is to edge into the grocery
market. They figure with all the advantages they get
from unpaid overtime, and illegal workers, they can
squeeze more profit out of the 'real' grocery stores,
that pay their workers more.

Yup..its called free market capitalism, and undercutting the
competition. If they do it illegally, they should be prosecuted. If
they tread the line..not much anyone can do.

As a famous person once said, shrug.

I see it happening. I don't like it. I try to
avoid buying anything there, and I would tell folks
to try to prevent that corporation from invading
their town if a store like that was planned.

Good man. When Kmart came in to my small town, it killed the vast
majority of small hardware/sporting goods/clothing stores. Shrug..but
the little guys were so over priced, folks were driving to
Bakersfield, 40 miles away, anyways. Btw...no wets working in the
local store. Just regular poor white trash like me.


Some locations have succssfully resisted walmarification
in the past, and the corporation has started a touchy
feely PR campaign to try to combat that kind of initiative.

Jim

And more businesses need to fight them. But never loose track of the
fact prices will always dictate whom sells and whom goes tits up.

Gunner


================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

"The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption.
The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is
made up of government unions, government dependent professions
(teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and
special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that
feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African Americans
being the most prominent, who are disproportionately invested in government jobs
and in programs that government provides.

" The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as politically feasible,
and use that money to buy as many of the people's votes as possible'.
Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda.
Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed Leftist David Horowitz

Sue wrote:

On 16 Nov 2003 08:58:15 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:



And to answer your personal question, I've been doing my
damndest to stay away, in droves, to walmart lately.

I'm sorry to interupt here but how can you personally stay away from
Wal*Mart "in droves"? Do you have multiple personality disorder? ;o)
Sue

LMAO! Thanks.....I needed that.


michael

In article , Sue says...

I'm sorry to interupt here but how can you personally stay away from
Wal*Mart "in droves"?

Gunner has an extremely pictureseque diction. If
he can use quotes, I can use quotes. I probably
should have used 'xxxx' around that, you're correct.

"Staying away in droves" is one of those nonsensical
but humorous ways of saying that something is really
unpopular. Like walmart, with me.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Still havent answered my question. Talk about obtuse. Now..I wonder,
if your dry cleaner is your shill corporation, as is your plumber...

Ha ha ha. *Now* who's out of touch? I don't own anything
that gets dry cleaned, and the last time a plumber was in
my house was about 15 years ago, when he added in a drain
connection for the washer. As a co-worker, I knew him
to be a top flight mechanic, and I didn't have the ability
to pour a lead joint in a horizontal run of pipe.

I did buy some fitting as home depot today - but huh,
there seems to be nothing in the news about *them*
hiring undocumented workers. If there were, I think
I would reconsider my patronage.

...if you think its a
conspriatorial problem with Walmart..

No. Nobody said "conspiracy" except you. I was
saying, "economic advantage." Basically walmart
is performing every dirty trick in the book to
drive out the competition and maximize profits.

That's fine, but why not simply have walmart employees
pickpocket the customers while they're in the store?
That would increase the profit too. Why don't they
do that?

B E C A U S E I T ' S A G A I N S T T H E L A W.

So is hiring undocumented workes and not paying them
ss, workers comp, and taxes. This will work its way
throught the courts and walmart will get its pee-pee
whacked a few times, and they'll be more careful
in the future.

You are a drove?

LOL.

Vet each of them for a green card? Walmart is guilty of **** worker
employee relations, and thats a fact. However..no one is shackled to
their work area.

What do you do if you need the job, and they
say, hey, ya gotta stay an extra hour after
the clock, to do xyz. Shackling or not?
Is that what it takes before you say, hey,
this ain't right?

Or would you waffle and say, well, they're
getting paid, right? They should put up
with shackles a bit.

Funny story, the labor department pushed through
a rule about requiring a certain number of bathrooms
for per headcount in plants. There was a pretty
big furor when it was realized that the companies
*put* the bathrooms in, but did not allow the
workers time to use them.

But hey, they were obeying the letter of the law!

Yup..its called free market capitalism, and undercutting the
competition. If they do it illegally, they should be prosecuted. If
they tread the line..not much anyone can do.

Until they step over. Did they? Time will tell.
As for me, I would rather not tread the line, and
will continute to keep my droves as far away as
possible. I'm of a simpler persuasion, the terms
'smoke' and 'fire' are tightly coupled in my
mind. There's a lot of smoke around walmart at
the moment.

And more businesses need to fight them. But never loose track of the
fact prices will always dictate whom sells and whom goes tits up.

Price, yes. But I still buy my redwing boots at the local store,
even if they cost more than cheapistan ones. They fit better,
they last longer, and they can be re-soled. It's not
*just* about sticker price.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 16 Nov 2003 13:13:41 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Sue says...

I'm sorry to interupt here but how can you personally stay away from
Wal*Mart "in droves"?

Gunner has an extremely pictureseque diction.

Sorry, gotta get ya again. You've heard Gunner speak? (Look up
diction in your dictionary).

If
he can use quotes, I can use quotes. I probably
should have used 'xxxx' around that, you're correct.

That wasn't my point.


"Staying away in droves" is one of those nonsensical
but humorous ways of saying that something is really
unpopular.

I understand that but it refers to a large group of people - not one
individual. "Drove - a moving mass of people". (from my crappy little
Webster Pocket Dictionary for School and Office). Hence my comment
since you were referring to only yourself.
I'm sorry to give you a bad time. I only comment on stuff like this
when the error is humorous or I can make it humorous.
Sue - bowing out now and not a moment too soon ;o)

Like walmart, with me.

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

In article , jim rozen wrote:
.....
that gets dry cleaned, and the last time a plumber was in
my house was about 15 years ago, when he added in a drain
connection for the washer. As a co-worker, I knew him
to be a top flight mechanic, and I didn't have the ability
to pour a lead joint in a horizontal run of pipe.

not to take sides, but Jim appears to know plumbing, at least
from a serious diys'r point of view. i plumbed a two story
home but made sure that the main sewer was brought into the
basement, terminated in a vertical joint. no big deal, but
you have to buy a "sleeve" to do horz., _and_ know how to use
it. i may still have some oakum, probably 40yrs old now. --Loren

ps. why is _everyone_ getting so lazy about triming posts? top
posting is a help, but at some point we need to give some thought
to those still using dialup. my 2cents.

Loren Coe wrote:
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos
wrote:

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
... mike wrote:
MKloepster wrote: snip

Cheap *******s who won't pay the higher cost of skilled American
labor are the ones steering this particular ship;
snip

Those cheap *******s are US!!!
How many times have you gone down to the full service store to
look at stuff then called around the discount places to save a
penny? WE won't pay a nickel more than we have to. DEMAND drives
the ship. WE won't buy good stuff, so THEY don't supply good
stuff.
...
Sometimes people choose cheap because they are tired of being
screwed.

Yep!! Real tired, in fact.
I'm afraid the bulk of us here in the States are in for a wake-up
call. We no longer are an island, not since we started dealing with
the entire planet. How can any of us expect to be paid wages
that are three, four, or fives times greater than those paid in
other countries, when those countries are doing their level best to
capture all the production jobs available? Especially when our
government, in all its wisdom, has been telling us that we are no
longer a manufacturing society, but service based, helping chase the
damned jobs away. Seems to me the "service society"

in 1990, Convex management (later part of Hewlett-Packard) told our
engineers that they were competing with their counterparts overseas
whose wages were much lower. the solution was to move _faster_ and
_smarter_ to keep ahead of the, "dragons".

by 1994, many of our engineers were thinking that almost all low tech
manufacturing would move of shore, leaving computers and telcom here.
my question then was, "can this nation survive just by selling each
other information and fast food?"

by 2001, folks were talking about competing "founderies" overseas (for
chip manufacturing). in about 1994 or so, TI built a memory
manufacturing plant in Richardson, Tx, partnering with a Korean(?)
co. now there are overseas competitors for the "Vitesse" type chips
(fast).

title, along with the jobs it entails, have been shipped to India.
What are we now going to do to make a living?
As long as the unions and workers insist on more for less, I see
everything slowly leaving our country, everything, that is, but jobs
like delivery drivers, which can be accomplished only on location.
Those that remain ... Until the work force establishes wage
equilibrium with other countries, I see jobs continuing to leave
our country wholesale. Sounds to me like pretty much everyone is
going to end up making a lower wage (if they're fortunate enough to
have a job, that is), something in keeping with wages paid in other
countries. It's just a matter of when it happens. Some of ....
Don't lose site of the fact that regardless of how much a worker
gets paid, it is you, the consumer, that pays the salary.
Business will continue to raise prices to compensate for their
increased overhead. They must, or they go out of business. In the
end, we all lose.
... Didn't
any of us learn anything from the auto industry that shot itself in
the foot in the 70's, and were shamefully embarrassed by the
Japanese? All of us should be ashamed of ourselves for the greed
and indifference we have displayed in our ME FIRST society, with our
exorbitant wages and low quality. Heavy sigh! Rant off.
Harold

you cover much ground, Harold, and make concise points. in general,
my opinion as to "why?" this is happening is the fallout of WWII and
certain philosophies adopted in the postwar decades. these were not
owned by any single class: the Marshall Plan, Japanese reconstruction,
the Cold War, and my personal favorite, "the Dale Carnegie methods of
management". the near antipathy of Dale Carnegie, whose name escapes
me, was in postwar Japan, helping them develop a modern base for manu-
facturing.

Is English a second language for you? WTF are you talking about? Or did you
mean antithesis?

In article irVtb.170337$275.525842@attbi_s53, Loren Coe says...

not to take sides, but Jim appears to know plumbing, at least
from a serious diys'r point of view. i plumbed a two story
home but made sure that the main sewer was brought into the
basement, terminated in a vertical joint. no big deal, but
you have to buy a "sleeve" to do horz., _and_ know how to use
it. i may still have some oakum, probably 40yrs old now. --Loren

Not a sleeve, but an asbestos joint runner. It's a
thick rope of asbestos that wraps around the outside
of the cast iron bell, and the molten lead gets
poured in the top where the clip holds the rope tight.

Adding to this trouble was the fact that it was a
re-work of an existing reducer, that went from four
inch down to two inch CI pipe, and a transition from
there to copper. Plus, this house is so old it has
'standard weight' cast iron pipe - almost eggshell
thin by comparison to the 4X heavy weight, centrifugally
cast stuff sold today.

It's an old, whacky house but I've learned that if
something works, LEAVE IT ALONE, and I was sure that
an amateur plumber like me would mess this up somehow.

There is one guy that I would trust this job to, and
I was lucky to have him come over and do it for me
one day after work. I could not thank him enough,
and paid him more than he asked for doing the job.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

And lo, it came about, that on Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:47:32 GMT in
rec.crafts.metalworking , Gunner was inspired to utter:


And to answer your personal question, I've been doing my
damndest to stay away, in droves, to walmart lately.

You are a drove? hummmm how many in a drove anyway?

Eleven less than the number of Hordes in a PLA platoon

Now about that wet
behind the counter at 7-11, or Starbucks, or.....


--
pyotr filipivich
The cliche is that history rarely repeats herself. Usually she just
lets fly with a frying pan and yells "Why weren't you listening
the first time!?"

In article , ATP wrote:
Loren Coe wrote:
management". the near antipathy of Dale Carnegie, whose name escapes
me, was in postwar Japan, helping them develop a modern base for manu-
facturing.

Is English a second language for you? WTF are you talking about? Or did you
mean antithesis?

not consulting a dictinary, antipathy used to mean opposite. --Loren

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:16:53 -0500, Nick Hull
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:18:04 -0500, Nick Hull
brought forth from the murky depths:

Actually, the SS wrote me a letter telling me that they won't pay me a
single penny in social security when I turn 65 next year.

Did they say why?

They said I didn't contribute enough to qualify, despite quite a few
years at maximum SS tax rate

That truly sucks. Condolences.


----------------------------------------------------------------
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* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
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On 15 Nov 2003 21:33:28 -0800, jim rozen
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article , Gunner says...

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

They knew. They've been dinged three times for this
same practice, and I suspect the wiretaps on the
managers' phones indicate that they knew *exactly*
what was going on.

It's a good thing our defenders of the universe are doing
the right thing and tracking the right criminals. Who cares
if our women are raped, homes are burglarized, vehicles are
carjacked, and banks robbed? Our gov't is catching the -real-
bad guys who hire low-cost workers for Wally World!

I feel safer already, don't you?


----------------------------------------------------------------
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* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
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On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:07:32 GMT, Sue brought
forth from the murky depths:

And to answer your personal question, I've been doing my
damndest to stay away, in droves, to walmart lately.

I'm sorry to interupt here but how can you personally stay away from
Wal*Mart "in droves"? Do you have multiple personality disorder? ;o)

How does one stay away -TO- Walmart, in droves or otherwise?


----------------------------------------------------------------
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* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On 15 Nov 2003 21:33:28 -0800, jim rozen
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article , Gunner says...

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

They knew. They've been dinged three times for this
same practice, and I suspect the wiretaps on the
managers' phones indicate that they knew *exactly*
what was going on.

It's a good thing our defenders of the universe are doing
the right thing and tracking the right criminals. Who cares
if our women are raped, homes are burglarized, vehicles are
carjacked, and banks robbed? Our gov't is catching the -real-
bad guys who hire low-cost workers for Wally World!

I feel safer already, don't you?

LOL!

Harold

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:16:53 -0500, Nick Hull
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:18:04 -0500, Nick Hull
brought forth from the murky depths:

Actually, the SS wrote me a letter telling me that they won't pay me a
single penny in social security when I turn 65 next year.

Did they say why?

They said I didn't contribute enough to qualify, despite quite a few
years at maximum SS tax rate

That truly sucks. Condolences.

Yep, it does suck. I put in more than my required 40 quarters, many of
which were at the maximum, and hated paying each and every dime, especially
because I was self employed and paid both halves of the tab for many years.
I didn't work at all for the 9 years before applying for SS when I was 63½
years old, but I am drawing every dime I'm entitled to draw. Hell, I even
got a raise last January after drawing only one check, and now I understand
Dubya is giving me another raise, this one 2.2%. Life is good!

Harold

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 04:11:14 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

snip
Actually Jack, it means you are minding the law, and letting some
other fellow either follow or break it. Its not your business, its the
other companies problem.

If it were Walmarts problem..then one can make the connection that you
and I are responsible for everything in the chain, when we purchase
goods and services. Are you SURE you want to go there?

Modern American law has already structured the process along those
lines. It seems that anyone can be responsible if two important
conditions are met. Those are that 1), the situation comes to the
attention of some greedy flawyer, and, 2) the party ignoring the
situation has a pocket with some money it.

Those have become the primary considerations for a need for some
"justice", no?



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In article , Larry Jaques says...

sarcasm mode on

It's a good thing our defenders of the universe are doing
the right thing and tracking the right criminals. Who cares
if our women are raped, homes are burglarized, vehicles are
carjacked, and banks robbed? Our gov't is catching the -real-
bad guys who hire low-cost workers for Wally World!

Hmm. Good point, I hadn't considered this. Yep, better
if we just give the executives at the megacorporations
the right to simply not pay any taxes at all, to hire
whoever they please and make them work in whatever conditions
they see fit. Then we'll give them carte blanche to ****
all over the environment too, after all, what's good
for business is good for the good old U S of A.

Good thing the wallmart execs have you to look after them.
I'm sure they'll return the favor.

sacrasm mode off

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

I feel safer already, don't you?

LOL!

Hmm. Odd, you were not laughing when that other gent
says he was being denied SS benefits. In fact, your
thoughts were quite the opposite:

==================================
Yep, it does suck. I put in more than my required 40 quarters, many of
which were at the maximum, and hated paying each and every dime, especially
because I was self employed and paid both halves of the tab for many years.
I didn't work at all for the 9 years before applying for SS when I was 63½
years old, but I am drawing every dime I'm entitled to draw. Hell, I even
got a raise last January after drawing only one check, and now I understand
Dubya is giving me another raise, this one 2.2%. Life is good!
==================================

Maybe he was denied benefits because the walmart workers
weren't *paying* into the system, eh?

SS isn't an investment. It isn't a trust fund with
money in it. Your benefits are not the money you put
in, which were saved for you. That money's long
gone. Sure it would be great if I didn't have to
pay SS, or if my employer could give me a raise
because they didn't have to pay it either. I personally
thing I should be entitled to the same conditions as those
guys who work for walmart. Which means NOBODY pays into
SS. How would it be, if nobody had to?

There goes your good life, out the window.

I encourage you to re-think the humor in the
situation where todays workers don't pay SS tax,
and employers are not prosecuted for doing
this.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

It's a good thing our defenders of the universe are doing
the right thing and tracking the right criminals. Who cares
if our women are raped, homes are burglarized, vehicles are
carjacked, and banks robbed? Our gov't is catching the -real-
bad guys who hire low-cost workers for Wally World!

Well, at least here in southern AZ, you're largely talking about the same
people committing all those crimes...so illegal immigration matters a great
deal. Available employment for "decent" illegal immigrants (can't really call
them law-abiding) also draws the worst of their countrymen with them. Stop one
problem and you go a long way toward reducing the others. A simple analogy:
The neighbor who piles garbage in his yard isn't directly causing disease in
his neighborhood, but shouldn't he be punished for drawing the pests that do?
The same logic applies to corporations drawing criminals accross our borders.
If they hired legal immigrants, they'd have to pay a legal wage, and that
apparently just won't do.

On 16 Nov 2003 18:31:04 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article irVtb.170337$275.525842@attbi_s53, Loren Coe says...

not to take sides, but Jim appears to know plumbing, at least
from a serious diys'r point of view. i plumbed a two story
home but made sure that the main sewer was brought into the
basement, terminated in a vertical joint. no big deal, but
you have to buy a "sleeve" to do horz., _and_ know how to use
it. i may still have some oakum, probably 40yrs old now. --Loren

Not a sleeve, but an asbestos joint runner. It's a
thick rope of asbestos that wraps around the outside
of the cast iron bell, and the molten lead gets
poured in the top where the clip holds the rope tight.

Adding to this trouble was the fact that it was a
re-work of an existing reducer, that went from four
inch down to two inch CI pipe, and a transition from
there to copper. Plus, this house is so old it has
'standard weight' cast iron pipe - almost eggshell
thin by comparison to the 4X heavy weight, centrifugally
cast stuff sold today.


Up here, you have a house with CI sewer pipe, you can NOT get
insurance (new coverage) without tearing out all the CI and putting in
plastic. The insurance companies are SO paranoid the pipe might leak,
and they might have to actually pay out.

It's an old, whacky house but I've learned that if
something works, LEAVE IT ALONE, and I was sure that
an amateur plumber like me would mess this up somehow.

There is one guy that I would trust this job to, and
I was lucky to have him come over and do it for me
one day after work. I could not thank him enough,
and paid him more than he asked for doing the job.

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

"MKloepster" wrote in message
...
It's a good thing our defenders of the universe are doing
the right thing and tracking the right criminals. Who cares
if our women are raped, homes are burglarized, vehicles are
carjacked, and banks robbed? Our gov't is catching the -real-
bad guys who hire low-cost workers for Wally World!

Well, at least here in southern AZ, you're largely talking about the same
people committing all those crimes...so illegal immigration matters a
great
deal. Available employment for "decent" illegal immigrants (can't really
call
them law-abiding) also draws the worst of their countrymen with them.
Stop one
problem and you go a long way toward reducing the others. A simple
analogy:
The neighbor who piles garbage in his yard isn't directly causing disease
in
his neighborhood, but shouldn't he be punished for drawing the pests that
do?
The same logic applies to corporations drawing criminals accross our
borders.
If they hired legal immigrants, they'd have to pay a legal wage, and that
apparently just won't do.

Interestingly, here in Western Washington, if it weren't for the immigrants,
legal or otherwise, I'm of the opinion that many of the jobs these folks do
wouldn't get done. How many young US born people do you know that are
willing to wallow in cow pies for a living? Or spend their days in huge
chicken barns, one of the more popular businesses here, where logging is
falling out of favor rapidly. Our young people don't seem interested in
doing the work, so it wouldn't get done, in spite of the wages paid here.
Washington, in all it's wisdom (thanks to the Democrats) has an unreasonable
minimum wage---way too high, creating a false impression that one need not
prepare themselves to make a living, the government will provide for them
with unreasonable wages. Isn't that one of the things that's making us
less than competitive in the world?

Back to the immigrants and the work they do, I'm certainly not in favor of
people taking our jobs away, but I don't see that happening, not at the
hands of the immigrants, anyway. We're in a tough position, of that
there's no doubt, but almost to a man, all of us benefit by the folks from
south of the border, for if it weren't for them, the crops would most likely
still be sitting in the fields, and the cows left unmilked. Many of us may
resent these people coming here, but we should appreciate the fact that they
are doing work that would otherwise not get done.

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

I feel safer already, don't you?

LOL!

Hmm. Odd, you were not laughing when that other gent
says he was being denied SS benefits. In fact, your
thoughts were quite the opposite:

==================================
Yep, it does suck. I put in more than my required 40 quarters, many of
which were at the maximum, and hated paying each and every dime,
especially
because I was self employed and paid both halves of the tab for many
years.
I didn't work at all for the 9 years before applying for SS when I was 63½
years old, but I am drawing every dime I'm entitled to draw. Hell, I
even
got a raise last January after drawing only one check, and now I
understand
Dubya is giving me another raise, this one 2.2%. Life is good!
==================================

One of the lessons that may be learned here is the fact that I made mention
of having paid in MORE than the required 40 quarters. I have no way of
knowing, nor is it my business to know, if or why this person has or has not
paid his "dues" as is required. Yes, it's a sad thing that he may be
denied SS, but it would also be a tragedy if they handed it out to those
that held jobs by which they may have been exempt, limiting or eliminating
their contributions. You know, like working for the government? Damn it,
I earned my SS, in spite of the fact that I was not a willing participant.
The key word here is having paid in long enough.

Maybe he was denied benefits because the walmart workers
weren't *paying* into the system, eh?

Or perhaps because he held a government job that exempted him from doing so.
I held just such a job VERY briefly in the mid 60's, working as a tool & die
maker for Tooele (pronounced Toowilla) Army Depot. The Viet Nam war was
raging so we were required to work 7 12's with no excused absences except
for death, and that included working Christmas and New Years. In spite of
that, it seems we had more than enough time for the shop workers to paint
cabinets that didn't need to be painted, and good old LaVar had more than
enough time to make a large brass name plate for the desk of one of the
Generals, who also wasn't required to pay into the SS system.

SS isn't an investment. It isn't a trust fund with
money in it. Your benefits are not the money you put
in, which were saved for you. That money's long
gone.

That isn't my fault, and I should not be punished as a result.

Sure it would be great if I didn't have to
pay SS, or if my employer could give me a raise
because they didn't have to pay it either. I personally
thing I should be entitled to the same conditions as those
guys who work for walmart. Which means NOBODY pays into
SS. How would it be, if nobody had to?

I, for years, resented having to pay into SS. I've already made mention of
the fact that I had to pay both halves, so I know and understand all too
well how you might have your feelings, which I also shared. I recall all
too well having paid what I thought was a fair amount on my quarterly
estimates, only to be hit by a $5,000 tab when I filed my taxes one
particular year. For the most part, it was due to SS fees, which were far
and away higher than my tax tab, and were rising rapidly. SS is a stupid
idea that has gotten completely out of control, but I paid and paid dearly,
so I expect to receive the benefits. The government was unwilling to exempt
me when I hoped they would. I'm not too keen on the idea of letting them
(us?) off the hook now. The money I may have put away for my living
expenses was taken from me by them (us?) without my permission. I had no
choice other than to face possible imprisonment for not paying. .

There goes your good life, out the window.

I encourage you to re-think the humor in the
situation where todays workers don't pay SS tax,
and employers are not prosecuted for doing
this.

I am in sympathy with you, but I'm not convinced that the whole of Wal*Mart
is doing that, nor do I see it happening elsewhere. If, by chance, it's as
you say, that employees are not paying into SS, they also will not be able
to draw it. ?? Where is that hurting us, or me? Sounds like a lighter
burden down the road. I also don't deny that there may be instances where
it may be happening. Still, I don't see why that justifies boycotting an
industry that is performing a good and valuable service to our citizens in
providing jobs and in selling goods at a reduced price. If you, or
others, find their policies of (assumed, or accused) lower wages, perhaps
it's time to acknowledge the fact that the American worker is way over paid,
that we are no longer in a position to compete on a global basis, and
without that ability, we are doomed. I have no doubt that you will see
things with a much clearer mind when it is you that is living on a limited
income in retirement. Wal*Mart may suddenly look like a good deal to you,
as it appears to be to us. We live slightly better because our dollars go a
bit farther.

This thing will shake out eventually, so we may as well face the idea head
on and adjust our thinking quickly to moderate the damage that is sure to
come. Denying the inevitable certainly isn't facing the problem, nor is
placing blame on Wal*Mart. Never fail to consider that part of the
problems of today are deeply rooted in greedy people, union members, top
level management, all of which seem to think that they are worth far more
than they are. Don't whine the next time you see a friend lose his job to
China, just consider the fact that had he been somewhat less greedy, perhaps
the price difference between his prospective wages and his current wages may
not have encouraged his employer to do business across the pond.

Harold