He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

In article ZtRsb.384922$9l5.225372@pd7tw2no, Brian Barnson wrote:
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made? Brian, in Cedar

not Mexico? China? Italy? --Loren

Brian Barnson wrote:
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

Ah Maytag. With the best reputation money can buy.

--Winston

Brian Barnson wrote:
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

The Maytag man is dead. He must have been an impostor.

Your Maytag dishwasher lasted 4 months? Lucky, lucky guy! The first
version of my Maytag died in 3 days, the second in 2 weeks and the third
seems OK after 2 years.

"Brian Barnson" wrote in message
news:ZtRsb.384922$9l5.225372@pd7tw2no...
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

I also had prblems early on with a MAytag, and reverted back to the
old 25+ year old Kitchenaid I removed when I bought the new Maytag.
Finally got my money back and refused another Maytag. Took a bit of
hassleing etc, but I eventually did it. I then bought the wife a new
Kitchen Aide abaout 4 years ago and have yet to have a problem.
Kitchen Aides used to be top notch units, but IIRC they are part of
Whirlpool or maybe even Maytag now, and its still not like the old
machines were made in my opinion. It took two of us to carry out the
old Kitchen Aide, but I carried in the new one by myself without any
problems.

My guess is China or Taiwan for where the motor was made. It could not
have bneen made in the USA as everyone knows the USA does not make
anything anymore. ;-) If it was made in Europe it would be cost
prohibitive to buy..........has to be china or somewhere in the
orient, with Mexico, or some other south american country as a second
guess.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:05:13 GMT, "Brian Barnson"
wrote:

===He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
===it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
===the motor was made?
=== Brian, in Cedar
===

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

I replaced my 30 year old coppertone Kenmore DW (with
reservations) with a top-end Whirlpool unit 5 years ago. It
has worked flawlessly. Kenmore quality seems to be the best,
though. My mom's upright freezer lasted 34 years. My
frig/freezer and washer-dryer set are all going on 14 years,
with no problems. My '82 Kenmore microwave is still going,
although I had to replace the magnetron last year.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Brian Barnson wrote:

He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

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"Roy" wrote in message
...
I also had prblems early on with a MAytag, and reverted back to the
old 25+ year old Kitchenaid I removed when I bought the new Maytag.
Finally got my money back and refused another Maytag. Took a bit of
hassleing etc, but I eventually did it. I then bought the wife a new
Kitchen Aide abaout 4 years ago and have yet to have a problem.
Kitchen Aides used to be top notch units, but IIRC they are part of
Whirlpool or maybe even Maytag now, and its still not like the old
machines were made in my opinion. It took two of us to carry out the
old Kitchen Aide, but I carried in the new one by myself without any
problems.

My guess is China or Taiwan for where the motor was made. It could not
have bneen made in the USA as everyone knows the USA does not make
anything anymore. ;-) If it was made in Europe it would be cost
prohibitive to buy..........has to be china or somewhere in the
orient, with Mexico, or some other south american country as a second
guess.

China it is. So is the replacement. The guy said that Maytag has
picked
up Amana as a budget line and that nowadays most stuff lasts 5 years.
Planned obsolesence they call, I call it planned insolence. Global trade
and having to compete with stuff from Korea and god knows where else is
part of it.
Brian, in Cedar

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:39:07 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

Your Maytag dishwasher lasted 4 months? Lucky, lucky guy! The first
version of my Maytag died in 3 days, the second in 2 weeks and the third
seems OK after 2 years.

"Brian Barnson" wrote in message
news:ZtRsb.384922$9l5.225372@pd7tw2no...
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar



Ours has been on the go since 1978. I have, however replaced
everything but the outer case and door latch. I now have spares for
everything, and in most cases duplicates, since I bought one complete
machine for $10 and another, mostly complete for a buck; both about
ten years newer than the one we use.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:05:13 GMT, "Brian Barnson"
wrote:

He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar


I bought my house pre-furnished with all Maytag appliances, 1 year old
when I bought it.

Over a 3 year period:

Built-in range-hood microwave oven - plastic handle broke - I made a
wooden replacement rather than pay the $27 + shipping for this 1.5" x
8" piece of plastic.

Range - microprocessor control module failed - twice.
- 4 elements replaced
- oven element replaced

Dishwasher - replaced pump
- replaced heater element

Clothes washer - pump replaced
- replaced water-level switch

Clothes dryer - control timer never worked on one of it's
modes, still doesn't because I don't use
that mode anyway
- intermittently the dryer motor will run for
hours with the heat off after drying

Side by side refrigerator/freezer

- Icemaker failed
- Water cooling tank failed at a seam
- Cannot get refrigerator compartment below
freezing at the top -and- bottom no matter
the settings

Toaster oven - Just plain stopped working - something in the
temperature/timing mechanism I think

Every single Maytag appliance I own has failed at least once in 3
years.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

The question isn't "are there weapons of mass destruction?",
the question is "who has them now?"

http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/...ny/default.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/iraqweaponsgap.asp

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:10:47 -0800, Winston
brought forth from the murky depths:

Brian Barnson wrote:
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

Ah Maytag. With the best reputation money can buy.

Yeah. Tell me about it. The appliance dealer said "These Magic
Chef washers and dryers are Maytags but they don't have the
stainless tubs." I paid my $800 and had them delivered. The
first time I used the dryer, the tub went "boom, boom, boom"
as if it had a flat tire. It turns out it did. That's "normal"
says the repairman. 3 weeks later the motor in the washer
smoked. 3 weeks later he had all 3 parts and climbed on top
of the washer to unplug it, leaving dents in the super thin
sheetmetal top. He denied it but warrantied the top anyway.

I called the dealer and asked to upgrade to the REAL Maytags.
Nogo. I pleaded that I'd pay the upgrade fees, no problem.
Nogo. I called Maytag and they said No, they couldn't make
the dealer take them back and they wouldn't do it themselves.

All I can say about Maytag is NEVER AGAIN for me!

My 2-year old Frigidaire fridge is noisy as hell, too. Maybe
I should have bought a SubZero unit. Or are they the Searz /
Minwhacked / Thompson's / Maytag bunch, too?


-------------------------------------------------------------
* * Humorous T-shirts Online
* Norm's Got Strings * Wondrous Website Design
* * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:47:09 GMT, "Brian Barnson"
brought forth from the murky depths:

China it is. So is the replacement. The guy said that Maytag has
picked
up Amana as a budget line and that nowadays most stuff lasts 5 years.
Planned obsolesence they call, I call it planned insolence. Global trade
and having to compete with stuff from Korea and god knows where else is
part of it.

My 2-year new stove, an Amana, is now exhibiting arcing sounds
from the most-used switch. I bought all new equipment when I
moved up to Oregon and am now wishing I had that old, rusty
stuff I left. DAMN!


-------------------------------------------------------------
* * Humorous T-shirts Online
* Norm's Got Strings * Wondrous Website Design
* * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Mike Patterson" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:05:13 GMT, "Brian Barnson"
wrote:

He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar


I bought my house pre-furnished with all Maytag appliances, 1 year old
when I bought it.

Over a 3 year period:

Built-in range-hood microwave oven - plastic handle broke - I made a
wooden replacement rather than pay the $27 + shipping for this 1.5" x
8" piece of plastic.

Range - microprocessor control module failed - twice.
- 4 elements replaced
- oven element replaced

Dishwasher - replaced pump
- replaced heater element

Clothes washer - pump replaced
- replaced water-level switch

Clothes dryer - control timer never worked on one of it's
modes, still doesn't because I don't use
that mode anyway
- intermittently the dryer motor will run for
hours with the heat off after drying

Side by side refrigerator/freezer

- Icemaker failed
- Water cooling tank failed at a seam
- Cannot get refrigerator compartment below
freezing at the top -and- bottom no matter
the settings

Toaster oven - Just plain stopped working - something in the
temperature/timing mechanism I think

Every single Maytag appliance I own has failed at least once in 3
years.


Mike Patterson


What a sad statement about the US, a country that used to lead the world in
technology and high quality products. How far must we fall before the
light comes back on that we really shouldn't be shipping everything that
made us what we used to be to foreign countries? Imagine us relying on
other countries to fight a war. A war with the countries we so rely upon
today. Who the hell is steering this ship?

Harold

JR North wrote:

I replaced my 30 year old coppertone Kenmore DW (with
reservations) with a top-end Whirlpool unit 5 years ago. It
has worked flawlessly. Kenmore quality seems to be the best,
though. My mom's upright freezer lasted 34 years. My
frig/freezer and washer-dryer set are all going on 14 years,
with no problems. My '82 Kenmore microwave is still going,
although I had to replace the magnetron last year.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


And the reason all those things still work is because they were made by,
and when, someone gave a ****. Got ya beat on the microwave, I use my
Litton daily that I bought in 1978, or 77 maybe.

michael

What a sad statement about the US, a country that used to lead the world in
technology and high quality products. How far must we fall before the
light comes back on that we really shouldn't be shipping everything that
made us what we used to be to foreign countries? Imagine us relying on
other countries to fight a war. A war with the countries we so rely upon
today. Who the hell is steering this ship?

Harold

Cheap *******s who won't pay the higher cost of skilled American labor are the
ones steering this particular ship; you can see them every day at Walmart,
loading up on cheap imported crap that adds nothing to their lives. Also blame
the free traders in power (Bush I & II, and Clinton). We're "saving" ourselves
right into a second class country. People ought to know that "made in China"
generally means two things:
1. The item is a cheap, piece of **** knock-off.
2. Profits (which are huge) go right to the People's "Liberation" Army.

Incidentally, #2 is why China will soon be the only world superpower; we may
spend more in absolute dollars, but they get 10 times the value for every
dollar they spend. With our purchasing habits, their absolute spending will
probably overtake us eventually--and then we will all be living in a *VERY*
different world. done ranting

A couple years ago I saw an ancient Amana Radarage at a yard sale. Probably
late '50s. Almost bought it, but didn't feel like glowing in the dark.

GTO(John)

And the reason all those things still work is because they were made by,
and when, someone gave a ****. Got ya beat on the microwave, I use my
Litton daily that I bought in 1978, or 77 maybe.

michael

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:17:39 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Mike Patterson" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:05:13 GMT, "Brian Barnson"
wrote:

He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar


I bought my house pre-furnished with all Maytag appliances, 1 year old
when I bought it.

Over a 3 year period:

Built-in range-hood microwave oven - plastic handle broke - I made a
wooden replacement rather than pay the $27 + shipping for this 1.5" x
8" piece of plastic.

Range - microprocessor control module failed - twice.
- 4 elements replaced
- oven element replaced

Dishwasher - replaced pump
- replaced heater element

Clothes washer - pump replaced
- replaced water-level switch

Clothes dryer - control timer never worked on one of it's
modes, still doesn't because I don't use
that mode anyway
- intermittently the dryer motor will run for
hours with the heat off after drying

Side by side refrigerator/freezer

- Icemaker failed
- Water cooling tank failed at a seam
- Cannot get refrigerator compartment below
freezing at the top -and- bottom no matter
the settings

Toaster oven - Just plain stopped working - something in the
temperature/timing mechanism I think

Every single Maytag appliance I own has failed at least once in 3
years.


Mike Patterson


What a sad statement about the US, a country that used to lead the world in
technology and high quality products. How far must we fall before the
light comes back on that we really shouldn't be shipping everything that
made us what we used to be to foreign countries? Imagine us relying on
other countries to fight a war. A war with the countries we so rely upon
today. Who the hell is steering this ship?

Harold

Nobody's steering the ship because they split up the rudder for
firewood a LONG time ago.
If we (the US and allies) went to war against the Chinese tomorrow, it
would all be over before Christmas - and even your president would be
under no delusions that we had won.
Their crap usually only works once - but in the kind of war they would
wage, that's all it would take. Make the Japanese Kamikaze look like
boyscouts.

Every single Maytag appliance I own has failed at least once in 3
years.

I have a 15 year old maytag washer. Has worked perfect for all those
years. maybe they don't make em like they use to!

chuck

--Hope they never have to come out and replace stuff in my Maytag
lawnmower! :-)

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Just another Fart in
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : the Elevator of Life...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On 14 Nov 2003 19:07:00 GMT, (Charles A.
Sherwood) wrote:

Every single Maytag appliance I own has failed at least once in 3
years.

I have a 15 year old maytag washer. Has worked perfect for all those
years. maybe they don't make em like they use to!

chuck

Bingo! Give that man a Yogi button.
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

The question isn't "are there weapons of mass destruction?",
the question is "who has them now?"

http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/...ny/default.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/iraqweaponsgap.asp

In article , Tom Gardner wrote:
Your Maytag dishwasher lasted 4 months? Lucky, lucky guy! The first
version of my Maytag died in 3 days, the second in 2 weeks and the third
seems OK after 2 years.

yes, but does it get the dishes & flatware _clean_. my 7-8 yr old
Maytag does a lousy job, most because the temp boost is either not
working or cuts out at too low of a temp.

i have to override the temp thermostat on the HW heater for it to
work even poorly. --Loren


"Brian Barnson" wrote in message
news:ZtRsb.384922$9l5.225372@pd7tw2no...
He replaced the motor in our 4-month old dishwasher because
it became noisy at a young age. Anybody want to guess where
the motor was made?
Brian, in Cedar

MKloepster wrote:
snip

Cheap *******s who won't pay the higher cost of skilled American labor are the
ones steering this particular ship;
snip

Those cheap *******s are US!!!
How many times have you gone down to the full service store to look at
stuff then called around the discount places to save a penny? WE won't
pay a nickel more than we have to. DEMAND drives the ship. WE won't
buy good stuff, so THEY don't supply good stuff.

It's sad, but there's nothing much we can do about it.
Gotta go. Found some "free after rebate" stuff I just gotta have...
mike


--
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
laptops and parts Test Equipment
Honda CB-125S
Color LCD overhead projector
TEK Sampling Sweep Plugin
Tek 2465 $800, ham radio, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/

On 14 Nov 2003 19:07:00 GMT, (Charles A.
Sherwood) wrote:

Every single Maytag appliance I own has failed at least once in 3
years.

I have a 15 year old maytag washer. Has worked perfect for all those
years. maybe they don't make em like they use to!

chuck

I have a 30+ year old Kenmore (inglis) drier that has had the drum
rollers replaced twice, and the belt once.
Untill 3 years ago we had the matching washer. Motor was replaced
once, and control head 3 times in 30 years.
The replacement (same brand) had the motor, transmission, and control
replaced within the first 3 months, then I found the REAL problem - a
bad switch.
We recently replaced the 40+ year old Frigidaire range. Until the oven
element burned out and arc-welded itself to the oven liner, all that
had been replaced was a couple wirers and one element control. The
matching refrigerator was retired 5 years ago when it started freezing
up (auto defrost went on the blink)
The 20 year old Quazar microwave had the "antenna" replaced uder
warranty at about 6 months when it started arcing - and has been
troublefree ever since.
The 30 year old gas furnace got replaced with a new medium efficiency
unit this fall. The blower motor had been replaced about 10 years ago
- and I replaced the furnace because with the cost of energy going up
it made sense to do so - and to do it on MY timetable, rather than
Murphy's. When they took it out they said there was nothing wrong with
it - it was just old. The central air is still there - never had a
moments trouble other than the thermostat.
The Beam central vac (15 years old) got a new set of brushes in the
Lamb motor last spring. A lot of the new ones do not have replaceable
brushes.

Only GOOD thing I can say for some of the new stuff is it is more
power efficient - but often that is because it is underpowered - and
therefore thrashes itself to death just "doing its job".

mike wrote:
MKloepster wrote:
snip


Cheap *******s who won't pay the higher cost of skilled American labor
are the
ones steering this particular ship;

snip

Those cheap *******s are US!!!
How many times have you gone down to the full service store to look at
stuff then called around the discount places to save a penny? WE won't
pay a nickel more than we have to. DEMAND drives the ship. WE won't
buy good stuff, so THEY don't supply good stuff.

There's cheap, there's fair and there's gouge.

I just posted this on alt.autos.subaru a
little while ago...

I was looking at the maintance
records for my daughter's Civic last night.
The previous owner paid $1700 for major tuneup,
timing belt, and brake job. I did all and more
on the Outback for $400 in parts. Now I can't
believe that a) the Civic is easier to work
on than the Outback, b) the Civic's parts are
more expensive than the Outback, and c) the
mechanic/shop deserved to make $1300 in labor
on a job that couldn't take more than 8 hours.

That's over $160/hr. My company only charges
$100/hr for custom electonics designs. At
some point the car repair trade decided they
should be compensated like doctors and lawyers.

Sometimes people choose cheap because they
are tired of being screwed.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
mike wrote:
MKloepster wrote:
snip


Cheap *******s who won't pay the higher cost of skilled American labor
are the
ones steering this particular ship;

snip

Those cheap *******s are US!!!
How many times have you gone down to the full service store to look at
stuff then called around the discount places to save a penny? WE won't
pay a nickel more than we have to. DEMAND drives the ship. WE won't
buy good stuff, so THEY don't supply good stuff.

There's cheap, there's fair and there's gouge.

I just posted this on alt.autos.subaru a
little while ago...

I was looking at the maintance
records for my daughter's Civic last night.
The previous owner paid $1700 for major tuneup,
timing belt, and brake job. I did all and more
on the Outback for $400 in parts. Now I can't
believe that a) the Civic is easier to work
on than the Outback, b) the Civic's parts are
more expensive than the Outback, and c) the
mechanic/shop deserved to make $1300 in labor
on a job that couldn't take more than 8 hours.

That's over $160/hr. My company only charges
$100/hr for custom electonics designs. At
some point the car repair trade decided they
should be compensated like doctors and lawyers.

Sometimes people choose cheap because they
are tired of being screwed.

Yep!! Real tired, in fact.

I'm afraid the bulk of us here in the States are in for a wake-up call. We
no longer are an island, not since we started dealing with the entire
planet. How can any of us expect to be paid wages that are three, four,
or fives times greater than those paid in other countries, when those
countries are doing their level best to capture all the production jobs
available? Especially when our government, in all its wisdom, has been
telling us that we are no longer a manufacturing society, but service based,
helping chase the damned jobs away. Seems to me the "service society"
title, along with the jobs it entails, have been shipped to India. What are
we now going to do to make a living?

As long as the unions and workers insist on more for less, I see everything
slowly leaving our country, everything, that is, but jobs like delivery
drivers, which can be accomplished only on location. Those that remain
will have effectively raised their income so high that those of us that are
left with mediocre jobs that pay at a subsistence level will not be able to
afford the services provided by these people. It's pretty much already
happened with the medical and legal professions (and maybe the mechanics,
too?) as you've already stated..

What do I propose? How about everyone that has a job reconsidering their
contributions to society, and the pay that is received for their services.
Why in hell should a low or no skill job pay high wages when highly skilled
people are being put out of work these days? Makes no sense, and helps
keep the prices of our goods out of balance with reality. How do we expect
to compete under those conditions?

Until the work force establishes wage equilibrium with other countries, I
see jobs continuing to leave our country wholesale. Sounds to me like
pretty much everyone is going to end up making a lower wage (if they're
fortunate enough to have a job, that is), something in keeping with wages
paid in other countries. It's just a matter of when it happens. Some of
you folks are going to have to liquidate a couple of your snow mobiles,
trail bikes, your bass boat, and maybe even a couple of your cars. You'll
either do it, or lose them. The free lunch is rapidly coming to an end
for all of us. And it should. For the most part, we've all lost our
perspective, in my opinion.

Next time you come across a picket line, give some serious consideration to
whether or not you want to honor it, helping the typically over-paid workers
get that extra 50¢/hr. raise, or the added benefits that so many of us have
no chance of every having, all of which do nothing more than raise your cost
of living when you honor and support them.

It's high time all of us start taking a realistic look at the money we make.
Don't lose site of the fact that regardless of how much a worker gets paid,
it is you, the consumer, that pays the salary. Business will continue to
raise prices to compensate for their increased overhead. They must, or
they go out of business. In the end, we all lose.

What's wrong with the idea that we do something to get back what we used to
have and do? Earning our way, working with pride, and keeping jobs here as
a result. I'm damned tired of buying things Made in America that are
inferior to many of the imports, yet cost two or three times more. Didn't
any of us learn anything from the auto industry that shot itself in the foot
in the 70's, and were shamefully embarrassed by the Japanese? All of us
should be ashamed of ourselves for the greed and indifference we have
displayed in our ME FIRST society, with our exorbitant wages and low
quality. Heavy sigh!

Rant off.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

... All of us
should be ashamed of ourselves for the greed and indifference we have
displayed in our ME FIRST society, with our exorbitant wages and low
quality. Heavy sigh!

I think this is a continuation of 'all the jobs are going
overseas' thread. The conclusion there was, it's not any
moral failing on the part of the american workers, but
rather the 1/20th factor - any job in china is accomplished
for a wage that is lower than an american doing that job
in america, by a factor of *twenty*.

Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When I hear about stuff like that it makes me ashamed.
Then I think that those folks should unionize and go on
strike.

I don't think the present labor pickle can be solved
by a collective finger-shaking. It's going to be
tougher than that!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:21:40 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


Sometimes people choose cheap because they
are tired of being screwed.

Yep!! Real tired, in fact.

I'm afraid the bulk of us here in the States are in for a wake-up call. We
no longer are an island, not since we started dealing with the entire
planet. How can any of us expect to be paid wages that are three, four,
or fives times greater than those paid in other countries, when those
countries are doing their level best to capture all the production jobs
available? Especially when our government, in all its wisdom, has been
telling us that we are no longer a manufacturing society, but service based,
helping chase the damned jobs away. Seems to me the "service society"
title, along with the jobs it entails, have been shipped to India. What are
we now going to do to make a living?

As long as the unions and workers insist on more for less, I see everything
slowly leaving our country, everything, that is, but jobs like delivery
drivers, which can be accomplished only on location. Those that remain
will have effectively raised their income so high that those of us that are
left with mediocre jobs that pay at a subsistence level will not be able to
afford the services provided by these people. It's pretty much already
happened with the medical and legal professions (and maybe the mechanics,
too?) as you've already stated..

What do I propose? How about everyone that has a job reconsidering their
contributions to society, and the pay that is received for their services.
Why in hell should a low or no skill job pay high wages when highly skilled
people are being put out of work these days? Makes no sense, and helps
keep the prices of our goods out of balance with reality. How do we expect
to compete under those conditions?

Until the work force establishes wage equilibrium with other countries, I
see jobs continuing to leave our country wholesale. Sounds to me like
pretty much everyone is going to end up making a lower wage (if they're
fortunate enough to have a job, that is), something in keeping with wages
paid in other countries. It's just a matter of when it happens. Some of
you folks are going to have to liquidate a couple of your snow mobiles,
trail bikes, your bass boat, and maybe even a couple of your cars. You'll
either do it, or lose them. The free lunch is rapidly coming to an end
for all of us. And it should. For the most part, we've all lost our
perspective, in my opinion.

Next time you come across a picket line, give some serious consideration to
whether or not you want to honor it, helping the typically over-paid workers
get that extra 50¢/hr. raise, or the added benefits that so many of us have
no chance of every having, all of which do nothing more than raise your cost
of living when you honor and support them.

It's high time all of us start taking a realistic look at the money we make.
Don't lose site of the fact that regardless of how much a worker gets paid,
it is you, the consumer, that pays the salary. Business will continue to
raise prices to compensate for their increased overhead. They must, or
they go out of business. In the end, we all lose.

What's wrong with the idea that we do something to get back what we used to
have and do? Earning our way, working with pride, and keeping jobs here as
a result. I'm damned tired of buying things Made in America that are
inferior to many of the imports, yet cost two or three times more. Didn't
any of us learn anything from the auto industry that shot itself in the foot
in the 70's, and were shamefully embarrassed by the Japanese? All of us
should be ashamed of ourselves for the greed and indifference we have
displayed in our ME FIRST society, with our exorbitant wages and low
quality. Heavy sigh!

Rant off.

Harold

For a change, a posting worth repeating in its entirety! You have hit
the nail (metal content) dead center with a BFH.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...



I don't think the present labor pickle can be solved
by a collective finger-shaking. It's going to be
tougher than that!

Jim


That's a mouth full! Yep, I'm not sure there *is* any fixing this
monster, regardless of who's responsible. :-(

Harold

In article ,
"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:


What do I propose? How about everyone that has a job reconsidering their
contributions to society, and the pay that is received for their services.
Why in hell should a low or no skill job pay high wages when highly skilled
people are being put out of work these days? Makes no sense, and helps
keep the prices of our goods out of balance with reality. How do we expect
to compete under those conditions?

Until the work force establishes wage equilibrium with other countries, I
see jobs continuing to leave our country wholesale. Sounds to me like
pretty much everyone is going to end up making a lower wage (if they're
fortunate enough to have a job, that is), something in keeping with wages
paid in other countries. It's just a matter of when it happens. Some of

Going to fundamentals, costs are high in the US because we have health
care, social security, a big army, etc. The solution is to balance
these govt benefits with import taxes. If you want more social security
and foreign army adventures, raise duties to pay for them. If you want
cheaper goods, lower social security etc. Make the customs duties
directly fund the govt benefits and let the people decide.

My web page goes into this further.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

I don't think the present labor pickle can be solved
by a collective finger-shaking. It's going to be
tougher than that!

That's a mouth full!

LOL. I guess I was hungry when I wrote that.
This morning swmbo made blueberry waffles so
I can ignore the food aspect...

Yep, I'm not sure there *is* any fixing this
monster, regardless of who's responsible. :-(

I get the impression, reading what Ed. H posts
here, and also reading the NY times now and
then, that this isn't a 'fault' kind of thing.

There isn't one single policy, or one single
person, political party, government, or nation,
that is to blame. And so the answer as such isn't
going to be one single 'answer' but a long road
back to where we once were. And by then it's
gonna be a different place anyhow.

Like they say, 'fasten your seatbelts. It's
gonna be a bumpy ride.'

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Nick Hull says...

Going to fundamentals, costs are high in the US because we have health
care, social security, a big army, etc.

Could you please explain this to the folks who *don't*
have health or dental insurance, and likewise to those
who are paying social security tax right now, but won't
collect any money from that system before it collapses?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

When you pay the neighborhood kid $5 to mow your lawn,
instead of calling the local gardening service and paying
their rate, you're doing the same thing.
My best friend is a liberal Democrat, who rants and raves
endlessly about the job situation, Bush, the Republicans,
Reagan, NAFTA, et al. We went to the local HF store, where I
showed him the reciprocating saw I got a couple weeks ago
for $39. While looking at it, I mentioned that the similar
Milwaukee saw was $139.
He snapped up the HF saw with glee.
Hypocrisy at it's lofty peak.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

... All of us
should be ashamed of ourselves for the greed and indifference we have
displayed in our ME FIRST society, with our exorbitant wages and low
quality. Heavy sigh!

I think this is a continuation of 'all the jobs are going
overseas' thread. The conclusion there was, it's not any
moral failing on the part of the american workers, but
rather the 1/20th factor - any job in china is accomplished
for a wage that is lower than an american doing that job
in america, by a factor of *twenty*.

Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When I hear about stuff like that it makes me ashamed.
Then I think that those folks should unionize and go on
strike.

I don't think the present labor pickle can be solved
by a collective finger-shaking. It's going to be
tougher than that!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

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--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:

"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 06:07:25 -0500, Nick Hull wrote:
In article ,
"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
What do I propose? How about everyone that has a job reconsidering their
contributions to society, and the pay that is received for their services.
Why in hell should a low or no skill job pay high wages when highly skilled
people are being put out of work these days? Makes no sense, and helps
keep the prices of our goods out of balance with reality. How do we expect
to compete under those conditions?

Going to fundamentals, costs are high in the US because we have health
care, social security, a big army, etc.

China has universal health care, social security, and the world's largest
army. They just pay a lot less for them.

Example, it cost them about 1/30th as much to put a man in space as it
cost the US to put John Glenn in orbit. We have a military that buys $200
claw hammers and $400 toilet seats. It costs you $15 for a lousy Tylenol
in the hospital. Etc. China won't pay those prices.

As Ed always says, and Harold is in effect saying above, we have a
huge underworked and grossly overpaid middle class. China doesn't.
It pays peasant labor peasant wages. It doesn't try to promote them
to the middle class by paying them more than their labor is worth.
The US does, in spades, and as a result our costs are grossly higher
than those of nations like China.

The US's defined *poverty* level is higher than the wages of 99% of
the workers in most of the world. That's because our cost of living
is grossly inflated compared to most of the rest of the world. And
our cost of living is so high mainly because we pay people so much
more than the rest of the world does. It is a vicious circle.

We got away with that when our economy was largely isolated from
the rest of the world. But that's no longer the case. Now we find
ourselves going head to head with economies with much lower costs.
We've reacted to that by becoming the world's largest debtor nation.

A currently running commerical illustrates that. It shows a man wearing
designer clothes mowing his yard with a riding mower, talking glowingly
about his two new cars, his new HDTV, etc and finally saying he's in
debt up to his ears. It ends with him saying plaintively "help me". It is
an ad for a debt consolidation service, but what it really says to us is
that we've been trying to live better than we can afford.

Restructuring our debt won't solve this. Trying to get other people to
pay for our lifestyles will no longer solve this. We have to get our own
house in order. We have to gain control of our own costs, and our own
expectations, if we hope to avoid bankruptcy as individuals, and as a
nation.

Gary

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:46:39 -0800, JR North
wrote:

I replaced my 30 year old coppertone Kenmore DW (with
reservations) with a top-end Whirlpool unit 5 years ago. It
has worked flawlessly. Kenmore quality seems to be the best,
though. My mom's upright freezer lasted 34 years. My
frig/freezer and washer-dryer set are all going on 14 years,
with no problems. My '82 Kenmore microwave is still going,
although I had to replace the magnetron last year.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Interesting... Kenmore is a 'house brand label' so the appliance could
have been made by any number of manufacturers, including Whirlpool,
Hotpoint (GE), Gibson...

-Carl

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 06:07:25 -0500, Nick Hull
wrote:
In article ,
"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
What do I propose? How about everyone that has a job reconsidering
their
contributions to society, and the pay that is received for their
services.
Why in hell should a low or no skill job pay high wages when highly
skilled
people are being put out of work these days? Makes no sense, and
helps
keep the prices of our goods out of balance with reality. How do we
expect
to compete under those conditions?

Going to fundamentals, costs are high in the US because we have health
care, social security, a big army, etc.

China has universal health care, social security, and the world's largest
army. They just pay a lot less for them.

Example, it cost them about 1/30th as much to put a man in space as it
cost the US to put John Glenn in orbit. We have a military that buys $200
claw hammers and $400 toilet seats. It costs you $15 for a lousy Tylenol
in the hospital. Etc. China won't pay those prices.

As Ed always says, and Harold is in effect saying above, we have a
huge underworked and grossly overpaid middle class. China doesn't.
It pays peasant labor peasant wages. It doesn't try to promote them
to the middle class by paying them more than their labor is worth.
The US does, in spades, and as a result our costs are grossly higher
than those of nations like China.

The US's defined *poverty* level is higher than the wages of 99% of
the workers in most of the world. That's because our cost of living
is grossly inflated compared to most of the rest of the world. And
our cost of living is so high mainly because we pay people so much
more than the rest of the world does. It is a vicious circle.

We got away with that when our economy was largely isolated from
the rest of the world. But that's no longer the case. Now we find
ourselves going head to head with economies with much lower costs.
We've reacted to that by becoming the world's largest debtor nation.

A currently running commerical illustrates that. It shows a man wearing
designer clothes mowing his yard with a riding mower, talking glowingly
about his two new cars, his new HDTV, etc and finally saying he's in
debt up to his ears. It ends with him saying plaintively "help me". It is
an ad for a debt consolidation service, but what it really says to us is
that we've been trying to live better than we can afford.

Restructuring our debt won't solve this. Trying to get other people to
pay for our lifestyles will no longer solve this. We have to get our own
house in order. We have to gain control of our own costs, and our own
expectations, if we hope to avoid bankruptcy as individuals, and as a
nation.

Gary

Thanks,Gary. I can always count on you to refine and say so eloquently,
that which I am trying to say.

Harold

Hypocrisy at it's[sic] lofty peak.
JR

And spelling at its nadir.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:21:40 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
It's high time all of us start taking a realistic look at the money we make.
Don't lose site of the fact that regardless of how much a worker gets paid,
it is you, the consumer, that pays the salary. Business will continue to
raise prices to compensate for their increased overhead. They must, or
they go out of business. In the end, we all lose.

Or at best we stay the same. When there was no effective foreign
competition, we could afford to stay on the treadmill, chasing goods
with ever increasing costs by making ever increasing wage demands
(which, of course, insured goods would have ever increasing costs).
But that day has about come to an end.

Now we have less expensive alternatives to US made products.
If we continue to make ever increasing wage demands, there won't
be any jobs, because the ever increasing prices of the goods we
make won't find any market. The jobs will go overseas, and with
them the wages those jobs paid. To keep our jobs, we're going to
have to learn to accept less money for doing them.

There's no other real way to stop this movement of manufacturing
offshore, short of nuking the rest of the world to eliminate the
competition. So to maintain the excessive lifestyles to which we've
become accustomed, we need to find other lines of work, service
jobs, that the world needs done, but only we can do.

One such job is policeman. We're in a position to become policeman
for the world. No one is in a position to stop us, and the world does
need a policeman. The trick will be to get the world to pay for it.

Like policemen everywhere, we can resort to strongarm tactics,
protection rackets, extortion and theft, graft and corruption to
sustain us if other nations won't voluntarily pay for our services.
As the only remaining superpower, we can play that role, using
the blood of our young to sustain our lifestyles. It is called empire.

But it would be better if we could get the world to accept us in this
new role more willingly. To do that, we have to be better politicians.
We have to convince the world we're looking out for their interests
by filling this role. We're not currently doing a good job of that.

Gary

On 14 Nov 2003 19:34:08 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


Who should be ashamed? How about the excecutives at
Wal-Mart, who are hiring illegals and not paying taxes,
SS, or worker's comp on their pay.

When did Wally World hire illegals? Last I heard, they hired a company
who employed illegals.

Gunner



"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the
nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding
fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although
it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave
rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to
participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the
Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:22:12 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
brought forth from the murky depths:
-major snippage-
Restructuring our debt won't solve this. Trying to get other people to
pay for our lifestyles will no longer solve this. We have to get our own
house in order. We have to gain control of our own costs, and our own
expectations, if we hope to avoid bankruptcy as individuals, and as a
nation.

Gary

Thanks,Gary. I can always count on you to refine and say so eloquently,
that which I am trying to say.

I'll ditto that. Hear, hear!


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk

That's Netscape spell checker.


Made in USA


JR
Dweller in the cellar

Ted Bennett wrote:

Hypocrisy at it's[sic] lofty peak.
JR

And spelling at its nadir.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

--
Remove X to reply

--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:

"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."