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#1
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... |
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#2
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
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#3
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
Peter wrote:
The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well qualified and honest HVAC contractor. Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C unit). If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to blow air through the AC coils in the winter. If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the **** out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install the thing myself. |
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#4
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
Anyone have any recommendations...
Bryant - 96.6% AFUE... (Consumer Digest Best Buy) http://www.bryant.com/products/furna...lution96.shtml |
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#5
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands. My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to Sears or Trane. Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is signifigant. Many folks have written that the installation is the important part. Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate, pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision. Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system may be needed. Features. I'd ask for a whole house humidifier. My old boss installed Aprilaire. Pipe the water from the hot side of the water heater, about six or ten inches from the top of the WH. Put the outdoor AC unit on the shade side of the house. Make sure the access doors face open space, so the future techs can get at the parts. The optional BIG air filter like a Spacegard is a good idea. They will probably replace the thermostat, and might run new stat wires. A furnace and AC install takes at least a full day for two guys working together. Might run into two days. You may need electric space heater for while the guys are working. Having been a HVAC installer..... Please be sure to tell the guys to use the bathroom as needed. And put out some VERY light food for them. Cheese and crackers and soda pop or coffee. They will really totally appreciate being fed. Smile a lot. Ask an occasional question. Be generous with your praise (try not to sound like a total suck up; it's a balancing act.) Lay down some old carpet between the door and the furnace, so they can wear boots in and out, and not worry about your clean floor. broken down cardboard boxes are OK, also. Or carpet runners. It's a good idea to have one or two adults home, just as a courtesy. To answer questions, and such. They will appreciate that you are not going to leave the house open and then accuse them of stealing the family jewels. It's a balancing act to be there, but not be in the way. Park your car on the street, and tell them they are expected to park in the driveway. They will want to get the truck as close to your cellar door as they can. You can expect to see a pile of old equipment, and they should haul it away as the job completes. As they rework the gas pipe, you may smell the natural gas smell. It's OK to remind them "I smell natural gas..." and they will reassure you that they are working on the pipes. The new furnace has some protectant on the heat exchanger. When they light the furnace, it will stink for an hour or so, as the heat exchanger burns off the protectant. You may need to open the windows. This is a one time event -- and should only stink for a short while. AC systems behave totally diffferently in the cold weather. They SHOULD come back when the weather warms up, and recheck the AC. Being cold out, it's not possible to totally be sure the AC is working correctly. The courtesy check in the spring should be included in the install price. Please do not run the AC until after the courtesy check. They may leave the disconnect "OFF" outdoors. Leave it off, please. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... |
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#6
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 4, 2:13*am, mm wrote:
On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:14:01 +0000, (brians) wrote: responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...e-AC-recommend... brians wrote: wrote: I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * I had four guys out last month to look at my house, for a new oil furnace and AC. *It would have only been three, but the first company struck me as incompetent, and indeed, I don't think they ever got back to me with even a price! *I called them because they did my new next door neighbor's AC (her new home insurance paid for it, on a 31-year old house! Amazing, I think.) and she was satisfied, and they are only 4 blocks away * It might have only been two estimates, but they waylaid me in Home Depot and were so eager to send someone, who am I to say no. My concentration is not what it used to be, and I've never been good at shopping for complicated things****, and before this started, I assumed that every company would either include a furnace humidifier in the price (and force people who didn't want one to notice and get them to take it off), or would try to sell me a humidifier. *In fact, none of them even mentioned it! *But I remembered to ask the last guy and he pooh poohed the idea. *Said I didn't need one. *Baloney. *I had one for 20 plus years, and it makes the house feel just as warm even when the temp is lower. *Yes, it takes some heat to evaporate (is that the same as vaporize?) the water, but it's a substantial net savings, I'm sure. I think the temp can be 2 to 4 degrees cooler when the humidity is "normal", neither high nor low, as opposed to the dryness of a northern winter indoors with a furnace and no source of humidity. ****Except cars. I've never had condensation problems, on windows or anywhere, probably because I don't set the humidifier to maximum, even the cheap little one I have had. Plus it's good for the furniture not to be in air so dry the furniture cracks. *Especially pianos and expensive furniture. * And maybe violins and woodwinds. * Of course if you haven't had one up till now, maybe all the cracking it can do has been done already. *I don't know, you'll have to ask a furniture guy about that. * But you may get new, expensive furniture and a humidifier is good. (When my brother was in Viet Nam during the war, he bought a wooden carving of someone, about 9 inches tall by 2" wide, and it got cracks the entire length of the carving, 3/16" wide!) Anyhow, he wanted 800 dollars for the humidifier. *When I squinted, he said his wholesale cost was 600. *The most expensive one at Home Depot is less than 200, and I don't believe it's much worse. *In addition, he didn't have a flyer for the furnace! but he did for the humidifier, and it was a bypass humidifier, which requires a round (flexible?) duct from the return to the humidifier, which is in the furnace outgoing duct. * Because of how my furnace and every replacement I've looked at my neighbors' houses is set up, it's too thick to fit between the duct and the flue. * But I know what would happen if I signed the contract. *They'd include it, and half way through installation they 'd come to me and say it won't fit so they're going to skip it. Online however they have a Honeywell (non-bypass) Humidifier for under 200 that gets good ratings. *I might buy that first and have them put it in. *Amazon sells it, among other places, and says "People who have e bought this also bought this humidistat." * One annoyed guy commented that he had taken their word for this and bought a humidistat, only to find that one is included with the humidifier. Not surprisingly. *I can get you the model number if you want, but so far it was the only name brand, the only non-bypass humidifier I've found. A agree with you on the value of a good humidifier. As long as you set it correctly, it keeps the house far more comfortable, avoids those static shocks, etc, without water condensing and doing damage. I currently have an Aprilaire 700, which is only a year old and I plan on having them move it to the new furnace. Over the years I've seen so many positive comments on Aprilaire and I agree with them. It's the best one I've seen. The 700 is a non-bypass model and it includes an outdoor temp sensor so that it autmatically reduces the humidity level as the outdoor temp drops. Another strange thing is that onely one of them tried to sell me anything that would qualify for the tax credit. *Maybe that's because they didn't think I could afford it, but that's silly because with the credit, it would usually cost no more than what they were trying to sell me! *In fact, you may want to plug in your own numbers, but my impression about the AC was that the cheapest qualifying AC is more expensive than the next less efficient one by the same amount as the credit. *That is, you get the upgrade to the better model for free, but you don't really save money other than that, on the purchase. This should be fairly easy to calculate with assurance. You get a refund of so much percent, so many dollars, and you can find out the increase in price from the model one step less efficient. *(Or you can just buy one. *I wish I were capable of just buying one.) And thn you save some money every year after that. *Although even the 13 SEER (or whatever) is probably a good deal more efficient than what you have, and the one that qualifies for the credit is only a little more efficient than the one right below it that doesn't qualify. It's amazing that they didn't mention or directly show you the tax benefits. The first company I have coming prominently features that in their newspaper ads. And I was thinking the same thing that you say above. That the tax credit is likely enough to about pay for the difference in price between a somewhat less efficient system that I might have bought vs one that meets the reqts for the credit. I think here there may also be a $1000 utility credit. Combined that could cut $2500 off the price, which is substantial. (I need an oil furnace, so, while I ended up learning about gas too, others can probably answer better.) Very few oil burners are 90% efficient, and I guess they are expensive. *One of the oldest places in town, in the same family for 80 or 90 years, 3rd generation, told me almost no one buys those, so the only part of the oil furnace that qualifies is a multi-speed fan. Now unlike 30 years ago when the fan was one speed any time it's running, now every fan has 2 speeds, one for AC and one for heat, but multi-speed fans, ECM's, Electronically Controlled Motors (Fans), have multiple speeds for different parts of the heating cycle and the cooling cycle. * In an oil furnace, 19 to 24 percent of the furnace cost can be attributed to the fan -- the furnace company will tell you the number -- and then one can get the credit on that part of the furnace. * But again, no one tried to sell me the mulit-speed fan, and the guy with the 90 years and great reputation told me he didn't sell oil furnaces with multi-speed fans. *He said that on the phone, and he wasn't one who came out for an estimate. *I thought no one made them but they do. I still haven't found out how the multi-speed fan works, when it's low speed, when it's mid-speed, and when it's high, and why it saves money. *It's seems clear that the fan uses a lot of current, especially on high speed, but how it uses less when it's multi-speed, and still gets the job done, I don't know. *Frankly, my single speed fan gets the job done, and only runs when the heat is on (or the AC) which isn't that long in suburban Baltimore, and I like the feeling of the blowing warm air. * There's a duct right next to me when I sit at the computer. *I still don't have any idea what benefit I woudl get from a multi-speed fan. * Also, if the circulating air doesn't circulate through the furnace fast enough, currently that would be a problem. I don't know what could be different about modern furnaces, oil or gas, that would make that different. I think one way it saves energy by using a lower speed when it can is that with any fluid the energy it takes to move it increases logarithmatically with the speed. For example, with pool pumps, they now have multi- speed that circulate the water slowly for a much longer time. Even though it runs longer, it still moves the same amount of water with like 50% less energy. Also, I think the most efficient motors are now DC, which generally are completely variable in speed. But that's probably an example of what I would skip, because while it can save some more energy, it does add complexity and if that motor, controller, etc fail, from what I've heard, it's a lot more costly than a two speed motor. BTW, I've bbeen reading instructinos for installing AC, and they say to flush and/or clean the pipes connecting the inside to the outside. After 31 years, it seems worth it, and simpler, to replace them. *IN my case they are only about 6 feet long. Good info. That's one thing I might not have thought to even ask. I would have assumed that considering mine are 26 years old, they would just automatically replace them. Seems that would make sense for not only the company, but also the manufacturer with their warrantly, etc. I definitely want mine replaced. Thanks for all the info. |
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#7
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
I am simply awestruck. There are very few REAL MEN in this world of
drive up food, and everyone talking on cell phones, and planning to "do lunch" on the PDA. You have my respect (not really). Of course, after you put your new copper AC tubing in with compression fittings and duct tape, it should run just fine. Service valves to open? What's that? We don't need no steenkin service valves. Cut em out with a Sawzall! Freon recovery? Real Men (TM) don't do that kind of wimpy stuff. I am humbled by your greatness. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Home Guy" wrote in message ... Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C unit). If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to blow air through the AC coils in the winter. If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the **** out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install the thing myself. |
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#8
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
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#9
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic operating principles are used in all brands. My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to Sears or Trane. Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is signifigant. Many folks have written that the installation is the important part. Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate, pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision. Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system may be needed. How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling output, not BTU input like a furnace. Just curious. Jeff |
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#10
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On 12/4/2010 9:14 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C unit). I hope you're right, because that's my current plan. I'm out of work again, except for a little bit on a maintenance project, and I have more time than money. Plus if I actually have heat and AC when I'm done, it will be very satisfying. (I'm going to hire someone to remove the current freon, and come back later and adjust the furnace, and connect and top off the AC.) Not recommending that you do this, but licences to buy Freon aren't hard to come by. Neither is the equipment to recycle and install, from pawn shops. It is a bit of money so economics run against it. There is "science" behind loading the correct amount of freon, so make sure you understand that clearly. Hiring this out is a good plan. CY: Wishing you luck. Most HVAC guys want to do the whole process. Find someone who owns a number of houses (or a real estate agent you trust) and ask who they use. It will be someone used to doing the task at hand rather than everything, and for a better price. Don't go the big company route unless you need the reassurance, there are a number of competent hungry hands out there. Do it at their convenience, don't pay up front and don't be a pain. Jeff |
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#11
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
mm wrote:
Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a Hey, that's me! Yes, and we both still run windows 98. Because I'm that type of "Guy". Sort of instead of bypass duct, how about about a very wide duct Yes, that would work as well. If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the **** out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor, and c) the ignitor^^. Seriously. Electronics are fine in my den, but not my furnace. Just read these home / hvac forums for how many people have had to replace various sensors and main boards and how much those parts can cost. ECM motor is a complete crock of ****. You save maybe 100 watts compared to running a 1/4 HP AC motor (which is about 1 penny an hour, or about $100 a year if the fan is running 24/7/365) but the motor will run you $400 to $800 to replace if it breaks. Besides, the extra 100 watts goes into heat that you can use in the winter anyways. And the ignitor - ask how many people have had issues with those. ^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must have some experience if you think you can put in a pilot, especially on a furnace designed for an ignitor. More than the average red-blooded meat-eating man. You'd really only know once you have the unit taken apart. I would assume that you'd simply place the pilot light in the same spot the ignitor is located, and the flames will spread to the burners the exact same way. Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it? Sure it's easier, but... IF those extra parts are unreliable, when they actually break, you can put in the simple replacements then. Then it's too late. You need the heat, and you don't have the time to perform custom mods. The best time to do it is when your old furnace is still up and running. I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a furnace. Instructions: 1) shut off your gas valve which should be located 6 feet from your furnace. Shut off the electrical service to the furnace at your main breaker panel. 2) disconnect thermostat and AC power from the furnace cabinet. disconnect the gas line from the furnace. 3) disconnect the return air and plenum ductwork from the furnace cabinet. Leave AC coils in place in their duct. Support with wires from above if necessary. 4) move old furnace out of the way, move new furnace into place. 5) modify ductwork as needed. 6) connect ac power and thermostat wires to new furnace. 7) connect natural gas line to furnace. modify pipe lengths and bends as necessary. use pipe sealant as directed. 8) turn on gas valve to furnace. check for leaks (use soapy water if you want). 9) turn on AC power to furnace at main breaker panel. 10) program your thermostat as desired. The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell you the furnace! I also suspect that would be the situation. The *******s... |
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#12
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 4, 10:52*am, Home Guy wrote:
mm wrote: Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a Hey, that's me! Yes, and we both still run windows 98. *Because I'm that type of "Guy". That sure puts a perspective on things. Windows 98 was notoriously crash prone, difficult to protect from a security standpoint and everyone I know was happy to see it replaced by newer OS's that were far superior. There is no comparison to current OS products. What exactly do you have against the new OS's? Then we have the fact that with just about any new PC you buy today, you wind up getting the latest OS included as part of the price. HP is selling a midrange computer with an AMD Phenom II quad core, 4GB of RAM, 650MB of disk, CD ROM drive, Win 7 Microsoft Office and Norton Internet Security for $425 with free shipping, So, either you're re-installing Win98 on new computers, which seems rather improbable given the lack of Win98 drivers for current hardware, or you're still using a 15 to 20 year old PC. Still on dialup too? |
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#13
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
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#14
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
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#15
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 4, 12:23*pm, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: Yes, and we both still run windows 98. *Because I'm that type of "Guy". That sure puts a perspective on things. * Windows 98 was notoriously crash prone, Ok, I don't want this thread to seriously derail at this point, so I will simply say that there are reasons why people perceived win-98 to be seriously flawed that had more to do with the quality of computers and hardware available in 1999-2000, like faulty video drivers and pathetically small amounts of installed ram. Last time I checked, video drivers are considered part of and ship with the OS, at least today. The video drivers I'm using on the PC I'm writing this on were shipped as part of Windows XP. Upon installation, the OS installer detects the hardware and installs the appropriate driver. That's one of the benefits of XP and more modern OS's. The drivers for everything the typical user needs are tested, certified and sold with the OS As for the quality of computers in 2000, it's rather strange that if hardware were the problem, those same computers did not crash when running NT. *There is a very healthy and active community of people that run win-98 on moderm motherboards with 512mb of ram (and up to several gb). *As I type this, I'm running a P4 2.5 ghz PC with 512 mb ram and 2 hard drives (80 gb and 400 gb SATA) with KernelEx API enhancements (which lets me run quite a bit of XP-only software). * Yeah, I'm sure it's a real stable gem and a marvel that should be in the Smithsonian for all to admire. Very reliable and stable, hardly touchable by any of the hundreds of exploits for NT-based windows systems. *XP was the emperor with no clothes. *It was a disaster for the first 4 years of it's life. * Strange because I used it on several PCs from the time of it's first release and I experienced no such disasters. It was an immediate improvement. We live with spam today because of all the home systems that used XP from 2002 through 2006 that got infected with backdoor trojans that turned them into botnets. *It was a crime for Microsoft to force XP into home computers back in 2002, and it really wasn't fit enough for home use until SP2. *But everyone conveinently forgets XP's history in that regard. * Nonsense. The only reason more spam originates from XP, Vista, or Win 7 systems is because there are so many more of them out there and consequently they are the systems targeted. Why would any hacker or virus developer waste their time screwing around writing for Win98 in 2006, when it was basicly extinct? difficult to protect from a security standpoint Complete myth. Tell us what marvel of security software you're using that offers realtime protection from viruses and malware on Win98. None of the major security software vendors even offer a product that runs on Win98 anymore. Not Norton, not McAfee, Kaspersky, TrendMicro, none of them. The best you can find is some shareware that may find the virus when you manually run it after the virus is already on your system. None of those that I'm aware of provide removal either. There never were any network worms that could work on win-98 systems. Meanwhile there were about 6 different worms over the past 7 years that can infect NT/XP systems just by them having an internet connection - no user intervention required. * You think MAYBE that's because of factors like it just took time for the worms and the sophistication of hackers to develop? Any reasonable person knows perfectly well that if Win98 was sitting all over the worlds networks today, it would be MORE prone to attack by viruses today. That argument is like saying there were never any terrorists that used a DC3, so it was a superior airplane to a 767. NT/XP was designed to be used by corporations and enterprises on closed networks, behind firewalls, managed by IT departments. *It's only since mid 2006 (XP-SP2) did it become somewhat secure for the average home-owner/user to use XP without help and protection from an on-site IT staff. LOL. As I said, I used XP for a decade, from the start, with no such problems. What you're suggesting, that Win98 is or was more secure than XP, is laughable. Go to secunia.org and look at the security issues for different versions of windows. *Win-98 has a pathetically small number of issues (33?) - many of them of low importance. *Meanwhile, XP has hundreds. You think just maybe that could be because those that develop viruses and those that try to hack systems evolved over time, became more prevalent over time? Consequently they are spending their time to hack into the systems that are most widespread and useful to hack with. In other words, for the last decade, just like other software developers they haven't given a rat's behind about Win98. Yet, you mistake that as a feature of Win98. Then we have the fact that with just about any new PC you buy today I don't buy PC's - I build mine from scratch. *I don't own any laptops or netbooks - don't need em. Figures you'd follow that strategy. Kind of like the guys I see bidding up systems on Ebay. The seller has a two year old PC and states in the listing over and over that they don't know if it works, sold as is, it turns on, but there is no video, no cables, no software, etc. Yet I see guys bidding it up to over $200. Over at HP, you can get a brand new midrange PC with Win 7 and Microsoft Office, warranty, support, etc for $425. Does that $200 box sound like a good deal to you? You couldn't buy the indivdual components on that HP system for anywhere near $425. You think you're going to get an AMD Phenom II X4 for anything close to what HP buys it for? How about that 1GB drive? Even just the hardware components would be more than that. And then, after you do the integration, using parts from God knows where, when it doesn't work, you can argue with the seller about whether the parts were deffective before or after you screwed around with them. I suppose you'd prefer to build your own TV too. I have access to binders full of Microsoft software. *MSDN, technet, etc. *I have set up hundreds of XP machines at my $DayJob$. *I've even set up something called Multipoint Server 2010 (based on Server 2008 R2). * I run office 2000 Premium SR1. *It's nice, because no validation is need to install (just like no validation needed for win-98). *Office 2003? 2007? *2010? *I have them all at work. *What do most of our work computers run? *Windows 98 with Office 2000. *Why? *Because if it ain't broke, you don't f*ck with it. * That sounds like the corporate strategy used by GM, Chrysler, and Lucent Technologies. I know my ****, and what I know is that Microsoft's life blood is to keep selling you a new OS every 3 years, and they'll do what-ever they can to beat their old OS's into the ground. * Really? Wow, you mean just like every 3 years or so I can get a new cell phone that has way more features, better call quality, better bandwith, internet access, longer battery life, etc? My what blood suckers, all of them! If Win-98 was really as bad as everyone thinks it is, I would leave it in a second, and I have any number of options at my disposal at no cost to me. *I have the CD's and product keys for ALL versions of windows since windows 95 up to Windows 7. * Almost everyone knows how inferior it was to the OS's we run today. But I keep using windows 98 for my home computers and my desktop computer at work. *What does that tell you? *Does it tell you that I like to have FULL ACCESS to my own computer? *Does it tell you that NTFS is really a crock of **** compared to FAT32? *Does it tell you that I don't particularly like the idea of WGA? *Or that I don't like DRM built right into the kernel of my OS (as with Vista and 7)? *Or a dozen new system vulnderabilities discovered every month? I'd say it, together with your constant vulgarity and the fact that you claim you would take any new furnace apart to tear out the modern technology parts before installing it tells me that you aren't as smart as you think you are and you have some serious issues. Keep drinking the coolaid. *Microsoft and it's ecosystem of software and hardware partners are loving you for it. Yeah, they get a whole lot of money out of me. Let's see, last $ they got was when I bought a PC back in 2001 with XP installed on it. That might have amounted to $50 at most. Then, this year I bought a new HP computer with Win 7 and Office. Maybe they got $75 out of that. Big deal. Compare that to your cell phone bill. Or your cable bill. Oh wait, let me guess, you don't have those either, right? |
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#16
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
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#17
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 4, 9:52*am, Home Guy wrote:
mm wrote: Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a Hey, that's me! Yes, and we both still run windows 98. *Because I'm that type of "Guy". Sort of instead of bypass duct, how about about a very wide duct Yes, that would work as well. * If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the **** out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor, and c) the ignitor^^. * Seriously. Electronics are fine in my den, but not my furnace. *Just read these home / hvac forums for how many people have had to replace various sensors and main boards and how much those parts can cost. *ECM motor is a complete crock of ****. *You save maybe 100 watts compared to running a 1/4 HP AC motor (which is about 1 penny an hour, or about $100 a year if the fan is running 24/7/365) but the motor will run you $400 to $800 to replace if it breaks. *Besides, the extra 100 watts goes into heat that you can use in the winter anyways. *And the ignitor - ask how many people have had issues with those. ^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must have some experience if you think you can put in a pilot, especially on a furnace designed for an ignitor. More than the average red-blooded meat-eating man. You'd really only know once you have the unit taken apart. *I would assume that you'd simply place the pilot light in the same spot the ignitor is located, and the flames will spread to the burners the exact same way. Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it? Sure it's easier, but... IF those extra parts are unreliable, when they actually break, you can put in the simple replacements then. Then it's too late. *You need the heat, and you don't have the time to perform custom mods. *The best time to do it is when your old furnace is still up and running. I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a furnace. Instructions: 1) shut off your gas valve which should be located 6 feet from your furnace. *Shut off the electrical service to the furnace at your main breaker panel. 2) disconnect thermostat and AC power from the furnace cabinet. disconnect the gas line from the furnace. 3) disconnect the return air and plenum ductwork from the furnace cabinet. *Leave AC coils in place in their duct. *Support with wires from above if necessary. 4) move old furnace out of the way, move new furnace into place. 5) modify ductwork as needed. 6) connect ac power and thermostat wires to new furnace. 7) connect natural gas line to furnace. *modify pipe lengths and bends as necessary. *use pipe sealant as directed. 8) turn on gas valve to furnace. *check for leaks (use soapy water if you want). 9) turn on AC power to furnace at main breaker panel. 10) program your thermostat as desired. The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell you the furnace! I also suspect that would be the situation. *The *******s... And that warranty goes down the drain, 10 yr extended and lifetime heat exchanger you loose. With thinner heat exchangers and electronics, odds are you just lost your savings. |
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#18
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:47 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
That's why I'd preferr to retro-fit the furnace with standard technology and do away with all the sensors. It's crazy that they removed the standing pilot light (which uses maybe $10 worth of gas all year) and they went with electronic ignition, and by doing so they had to add all sorts of temperature sensors to know if the main gas supply should be shut off in case the ignitor doesn't work. Talk about over-kill to save $10 worth of gas (even less if you normally turn off your pilot light in the summer). I don't like all the fail safe points on the new furnaces, because any one of them failing can leave you without heat. But you've got your work cut out to modify as you want to. First, toss the motherboard. Toss the ignitor. Toss the flame sensor. Toss the roll out sensors. Toss the inducer, or unplug it. Find a thermocouple controlled gas valve that will fit in place of the electronically controlled valve that came with the unit. Rig a pilot light. Then figure out what to do with the many loose wires, how to relay the main fan speed (you tossed the existing relays with the motherboard), decide whether to rig an over temp sensor, etc. You might need to rig a new transformer if that was on the motherboard. I don't know. I briefly considered replacing the motherboard on mine when I was mentally shotgunning parts (I only wasted 6 bucks on an inducer diaphragm valve.) The mass of wires connected to the motherboard scared me off. I always got it going again by cleaning the flame sensor. Even if I had just cleaned it a couple days ago. Main fan was always inconsistent too, sometimes running for a minute after flame off, sometimes not. When the main fan relay (on motherboard) stuck so there was only low speed - not enough to heat/cool - I called in a pro. He had it going in 10 seconds by flexing the motherboard. Said it could stick again, so I had him put in a new motherboard. Took the pro about 15 minutes to replace the motherboard. He only cussed twice. No problems for the 3 years since. That motherboard was flaky from the getgo. I think flaky/failing motherboards are the biggest problem with modern furnaces, not the sensors. Heat, undersized relays, etc. A flame sensor problem is easy to diagnose - gas valve opens, then closes. Cleaning sensor with steel wool always fixed that. Ignitor failure is easy to diagnose - inducer clicks diaphragm switch, and no glow within 15 seconds. Replaced one ignitor. MB leds give that info too. Sensors and ignitors are cheap and easy to replace. Motherboards cost hundreds - think mine was $320. Came across a post somewhere where a guy had 2 Carrier motherboards fail in 4 years, so he wired external relays to take the load and the 3rd motherboard has lasted 6-7 years so far. Next time I get a furnace I'll call up the same pro and pay for a service call just to pick his brain on this type of thing before I make my decision. Problem is, as somebody else said, models are always changing, and some reliable models get discontinued. Almost like buying a first year model car - you don't know what bad was engineered into it. Then, if you talk to a pro repairman who also does installs you have to be wary of his prejudices. It's human nature. Anyway, I wager you won't try to do the modifications I've mentioned when you replace that old furnace. I'm a gambling man (-: Wouldn't mind being wrong on that bet though if you come back and tell us how you did it. --Vic |
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#19
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
ransley unnecessarily full-quoted:
And that warranty goes down the drain, 10 yr extended and lifetime heat exchanger you loose. No. Anyone who buys a new furnace and ends up needing to rely on any sort of corrosion warranty will lose. Because as past history has shown, you need to launch a class-action law suit in order to ever get compensation. With thinner heat exchangers and electronics, odds are you just lost your savings. If you think at the outset that you're buying a piece-of-**** furnace that's going to break down on you like that, then it doesn't matter whether or not you've modded the furnace. You shouldn't be buying a piece-of-**** furnace in the first place. |
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#20
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
The subject line says "new gas furnace". You're writing about Windows
98 and you "don't want this thread to seriously derail". Might I suggest that point has long since passed? -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Home Guy" wrote in message ... wrote: Ok, I don't want this thread to seriously derail at this point, so I will simply say that there are reasons why people perceived win-98 to be seriously flawed that had more to do with the quality of computers and |
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#21
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 4, 3:43*pm, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: Last time I checked, video drivers are considered part of and ship with the OS, *at least today. Hardware drivers (video, chipset, etc) are written by the manufacturers of those components. *They are made available to Microsoft for incorporation into the distribution CD's that Windows comes on. After certification and approval by Microsoft to ensure that they work with the OS. Ifa the drivers for the common video chips included in WinXP, 7, etc doesn't work, won't install, etc, you call Microsoft. With Win98 you have old drivers and God knows who you call today. I doubt anyone is writing Win98 drivers for new hardware today. Drivers are updated all the time, especially for video cards, and the best drivers for most things are almost always obtained from the manufacturer's website, not from the Windows installation CD. And most people, like me, are using the standard ones. I have a four monitor Appian graphics card running on XP. Not even your typical video card. The standared XP install recognized it, installed the driver and it works perfectly. Now if you're talking laptops or netbooks, that's a slightly different story, as those hardware components are custom-integrated into the final product and there may never be driver updates created for those hardware components. * There isn't anything special about notebook computers. The hardware components that drive the I/O, eg video/graphics chips are integrated into chips on the motherboard. The exact same thing is done with the computers you buy at any of the desktop manufacturers. They usually have basic video/graphics integrated on the motherboard because most of the chipsets sold by Intel, AMD have those built-in and it gives them a cost effective way of offering video/graphics. If you want to, you can choose to disable those and use an add-in card for higher performance. Same thing with disk. The disk interface has been part of the desktop motherboard for a decade, because it too is intergrated into those chipsets, just like for notebooks. When it comes to desktop PC's, unless you have a "boutique" computer (HP, Compaq, Dell) then most likely there are better versions of various hardware drivers available on the net vs the ones that shipped with the computer originally or that come on the Windows CD. You're stuck in Win98 world. Today those common, mainstream PCs come with drivers that are perfectly fine, stable and only a small minority of people are seeking out drivers different than what comes with the PC. That mode exists primarily with geeks and gamers, who want to screw around with things and try to get some better performance. I don;t know who would consider HP or Dell a boutique company. I can get a mid-range PC with 6GB RAM, 650MB disk, Win 7, MSFT Office, Norton Internet Security, etc from HP for $425 including shipping. What makes that "boutique". BTW, Compaq hasn't existed for years. It was bought by HP. Windows 98 was plagued by buggy AGP video card drivers and even the AGP bus itself was still being improved (from an electrical / signalling POV) back during the time when win-98 was introduced and used (1998 - 2002). *Video cards and drivers were significantly better and more reliable in 2002 than they were in 1998. * Uh huh. And those better drivers are shipped by Microsoft as part of XP and later OS's. Consequently, those OS's are more likely to install and work without blue screens of death. I think most people would say that makes XP a better OS. The video drivers I'm using on the PC I'm writing this on were shipped as part of Windows XP. *Upon installation, the OS installer detects the hardware and installs the appropriate driver. *That's one of the benefits of XP and more modern OS's. Windows 98 was no different. *The win-98 CD comes with hundreds of drivers for all sorts of hardware devices from dozens of manufacturers, and hundreds if not thousands more win-98 drivers are available on the web for new devices that didn't exist back in 1998/1999. Win98 was different. You just said: "Windows 98 was plagued by buggy AGP video card drivers " Today Win7 ship with drivers that are stable and not buggy. It was only during 2006 that drivers for new hardware products stopped being written for windows 98. As for the quality of computers in 2000, it's rather strange that if hardware were the problem, those same computers did not crash when running NT. NT did crash. *But more to the point - NT systems were usually given the luxury of more installed RAM. *Any OS becomes unstable when given a small amount of memory, and Win-98 systems at the time were severely handicapped because they usually had a pathetic 8 to 32 mb of installed RAM. Another thing is that when a program crashes under NT, it doesn't take the OS with it. *But Win-9x doesn't have the same separation of OS and App memory space, so a badly behaving program can crash a win-9x computer. *You might think this is a good thing, but it's largely irrelavent, because you probably won't be running a badly-behaved App for very long regardless what OS you use. Oh my God. You can't seriously belive this. WinXP and subsequent OSs took full advantage of the hardware protection built into the Intel architecture. There is physical hardware present specifically to prevent one app from crashing another ap or the OS. For example, using that hardware, the OS limits the memory space application A can reach. It can try to do a direct memory write to another memory region, eg one used by the OS, and the HARDWARE blocks it and triggers an exception. It's precisely those kinds of improvements that are in XP and later OS's that make them stable. Win98 was a kludge from the days of the original 8088 based PC, with the OS being a legacy 16 bit implentation with some 32 bit capability added on. Consequently it made minimal use of the features of the hardware that provided memory management and protection. With XP, the home had a true 32 bit OS that fitted perfectly with the memory management and protection hardware of the Intel architecture. With Win98 I regularly had one bad behaving app lock up the whole system. With XP and later, that's been reduced dramatically. It still does happen once in a while. I think most people share that experience. XP was the emperor with no clothes. *It was a disaster for the first 4 years of it's life. Strange because I used it on several PCs from the time of it's first release and I experienced no such disasters. XP was extremely well known as being easily exploitable back during 2002 through 2004, and slightly less exploitable in 2005 - 2006. *Ask anyone who was in IT during those years. And Win98 besides being an unstable piece of crap, had all those security vulnerabilities and more. Just because more viruses and malware have evolved over time doesn't mean that earlier OS's were better. Following that logic, we should all still be using MS-DOS because the original IBM PC had no viruses, at least for a while. It was an immediate improvement. You noticed an improvement because XP most likely came installed on a new computer, and the specs of that new computer were likely much better than the specs of of the win-98 computer that it replaced. Wrong. You can take Win98 and run it on a brand new computer today and it would have the same problems because it's a kludge 16bit/32 bit patched together OS. But that ain;t very likely to happen, because no one is writing drivers for it today. You want to stay stuck in time 5+ years ago forever? The years 1998 through 2003 saw a drastic improvement in the capability, performance, stability and reliability of computer hardware (motherboard, hard drives, video cards, RAM). *You can't compare win-98 with XP without taking that into account. * Been, there, done that. What I've seen is a constant improvement over time in both hardware and software. One of those was kissing Win98 goodbye. We live with spam today because of all the home systems that used XP from 2002 through 2006 that got infected with backdoor trojans that turned them into botnets. But everyone conveinently forgets XP's history in that regard. Nonsense. * The only reason more spam originates from XP, Vista, or Win 7 systems is because there are so many more of them out there There were major flaws in XP back in 2002 through 2006 that made them easy targets for remote access and control by hackers. *Those flaws relate to Microsoft's design goals that XP was first and formost a business-level operating system and had lots of extra "stuff" (services) turned on that were completely unnecessary for home users. *Windows 98 either did not have those services or they were not turned on by default as they were with XP, and because of code differences the win-98 versions either did not have any vulnerabilities or if they did, they were not exploitable in a reliable and consistent way as they were with XP. There were plenty of Win-98 computers on the internet during 1998 through 2002, but hardly any of them were exploited because they simply weren't vulnerable, and many win-98 computers continued to be used into 2003 and 2004. *When you read detailed reports and white-papers regarding trojans and botnets, you find that they were overwhelmingly composed of XP machines back in 2003 through 2005, even though there were still a significant number of win-98 machines in use at the time. Why would any hacker or virus developer waste their time screwing around writing for Win98 in 2006, when it was basicly extinct? Hackers were always looking for vulnerabilities in all OS's in use at any given time. *The truth is that there were hardly any vulnerabilities in win-98. *Ever. Tell us what marvel of security software you're using that offers realtime protection from viruses and malware on Win98. Usually - nothing. Hopefully that's because that system is not connected to the internet. More likely it's because no security software is available to offer real- time protection for Win98. The main AV product that I used on my home and company PC's is/was Norton AntiVirus 2002 (and note: *NAV did not become bloatware until version 2003 and later). *NAV 2002 can still be updated with current virus scan engine and definition files using Symantec's "intellgent updater" package - but Symantec doesn't want you to know that. But I mostly don't bother to update the definitions on the 15 or so win-98 computers that I own or manage because they quite simply have never gotten exposed to any malware in the past 7 or so years. That must mean that you don;t have it connected to the internet, otherwise they would clearly be exposed. But being an antique, there are less viruses to worry about because just like with apps, no one is writing new ones. But I'd bet someone is occasionally recirculating old ones. And it's funny when I'm surfing a website and I get the fake-AV popup that wants me to download some software (which I do just to sample it and send it to virustotal.com) or maybe some rogue web-page will trigger my browser to download a malicious pdf file which will cause Acrobat Reader 6 to start up - and display a harmless error message - because acrobat reader 6 is not vulnerable to any of the various pdf exploits that have been discovered in the past few years. I'm sure trying to use Win98 on the web today you get all sorts of error messages. Every once in a while I'll take the hard drive from my win-98 systems and slave them to an isolated XP system running several different AV software and scan the drives for malware. *NONE is ever found. That's a real convenient process and finds them only after they've infected the system. From an IT management point of view, it has been an absolute pleasure to own and operate about a dozen windows-98 systems in a corporate / small business environment for the past 10 years. *From payroll to accounting to production to manufacturing to networking, win-98 works well in those rolls *with the software we have, and I spend zero time having to worry or deal with security or malware from the internet. *It's also been a very cost-effective solution not "upgrading" to what-ever Microsoft says is the required OS to use. *Anyone dancing to Microsoft's tune is indeed a fool. Yeah, like I said, that evil corporation called Microsoft has really scammed me. They got maybe $50 from me in 2001 when I bought a PC with XP. And recently they got a similar amount or maybe $75when I bought a new PC that has Win 7 and Microsoft Office on it. During that decade I got free updates. They really took advantage of me. All those developers that stopped writing anything for Win98 6 or more years ago must be fools too. Clearly you're one of the Microsoft hating loons, so biased you can't see the forest for the trees. |
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#22
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:
I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do have CR mag online, right. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or vacation alot recovery is harder. You could Diy it , save money, have no warranty and maybe be covered on savings. I think vsdc motor is 600, but im guessing on all numbers. |
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#23
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 8:00*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: The subject line says "new gas furnace". You're writing about Windows 98 and you "don't want this thread to seriously derail". Might I suggest that point has long since passed? -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "Home Guy" wrote in ... wrote: Ok, I don't want this thread to seriously derail at this point, so I will simply say that there are reasons why people perceived win-98 to be seriously flawed that had more to do with the quality of computers and Excuse me, but you've obviously got me confused with HomeGuy. He's the guy that started the Win98 crap that got the thread off track and made the above quoted statement. Perhaps you remember him as the profanity spewing poster you previously engaged with. |
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#24
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote:
On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote: I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do have CR mag online, right. I checked there already. They said the problem reports were about the same for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other. They gave some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers. But I'm not sure what that even means. Does it mean that the price for a similar furnace from each company? Or does it mean that it's the average price of the systems each company sells? If it's the latter, it's useless, because company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I want. Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. I finally got a subscription. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or vacation alot recovery is harder. I was thinking about that. With the current furnace, with an outside temp of' about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour. Current 26 year old furnace is 150K input. So, I'm thinking with 93% or so efficiency new one, 100K should be about the same. It's not close to running constantly on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. But any smaller and it cuts back the ability to set it back at night. Right now it's set to go to 60 at 11PM, back to 67 at 5:30AM I also take maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and from the above, you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable temperature. I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the internet to set it back up when I'm on the way back. Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means less ability to set it back, even on a daily basis? As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have in the systems that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. I'm thinking I'll probably wind up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in the credit. |
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#25
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
ransley wrote:
I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Don't joke. Next year they'll be running linux or android. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago the top results were suprising So post them here. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. Yes. Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. Take a magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they have on display. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of ****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy. Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception. Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor. So where are we? 1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%) furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or take) - which is good. I do like that improvement. 2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30 years ago is bad. Using stainless is good. 3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace. 4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify extra cost and reduced longevity. As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional pilot. Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. Give me the choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. Give me all stainless for the exchangers. If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of ****. Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around the AC coils instead of going through them. You want efficiency? It's not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it during the winter. It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside, force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the outside. When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw outside air into the house directly? |
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#26
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
"Home Guy" wrote in message ... ransley wrote: I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Don't joke. Next year they'll be running linux or android. The new high end systems are serial control with variable frequency inverter drives that will vary their output from 40% - 115% of their rated capacity. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago the top results were suprising So post them here. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...-205/overview/ If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. Look for tubular primary heat exchanger, not "clam shell". Yes. Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. Take a magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they have on display. If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and adjusted, aluminized steel or stainless.... either will give you a good service life. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now 90% of those failures were due to incorrectly designed and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures. Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of ****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy. you need to do some more homework here. Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception. ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan, use half the energy to run and are a whole lot quieter than PSC motors. Only the cheapest manufactures with the cheapest models of furnaces have issues with RFI. yes you will get what you pay for. Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor. The average system that I install uses 30% - 40% less energy to run. So where are we? Talking about how you need to go back to school, and get up to speed with the new systems. 1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%) furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or take) - which is good. I do like that improvement. 90+ furnaces VS 80+ furnaces will largely depend on location, climate, and degree days. Here in south Mississippi, the additional cost of a 90+ furnace is not justified, where in the northern states where they have 9 months of winter sports is a different story. 2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30 years ago is bad. Using stainless is good. Stainless is good, but also much more expensive. Will the additional cost be worth it in your location? Keep in mind that heating and cooling systems are not built to last forever. 3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace. Please explain how this is so?? or do you advocate removing half of the safety devices on the furnace in favor of a standing pilot?? I don't know of *ANY* legitmate HVAC tech that would purposly want to remove safeties from any gas appliance. 4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify extra cost and reduced longevity. Please explain how you come up with this. BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer 2 weeks ago, he has the ability to monitor his *ACTUAL* energy usage. The new system uses 1500 watts less energy to run it than the old system did. Last January I installed a new 4 ton 14SEER dual fuel/hybrid system in my own home and it reduced my energy usage by 42% over this last year. BOTH systems have ECM blower motors, as well as ECM condenser fan motors. As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional pilot. Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. Give me the choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. Give me all stainless for the exchangers. If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of ****. So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled..... Technology is a good thing when the contractor/installer/tech has the training, education, and experience. to me it sounds like your not happy because its no longer a DIY proposition, and you can't make it work correctly. in case you haven't noticed, *EVERYTHING* has electronics in it these days. The electronics make things safer, and more energy efficient. FWIW, a good quality digital control can reduce your energy bills 10% - 15% by itself, as well as increase your comfort levels by not having the 5 - 7 degree temperature swings that a mechanical thermostat will give you. Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around the AC coils instead of going through them. You want efficiency? It's not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it during the winter. You can't be serious It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside, force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the outside. When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw outside air into the house directly? The A/C does *MORE* than just cool the air... but I just don't have the time or the inclination to explain it all to you. Its pretty obvious that your not a tech by any stretch of the imagination. To the OP... I would highly recommend that you call your local *COMPETENT*, licensed, insured, professionally trained, HVAC technician to do a complete assesment of your home to see what it actually needs, and recomendations for a top quality installation of a top quality system that is best suited for your home in your particular climate. -- Steve @ Noon-Air Heating & A/C "Stop calling me for freebies Satan, I'll fix your air conditioner when you pay me, Cheapskate!" |
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#27
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote:
On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote: On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote: I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do have CR mag online, right. I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the same for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other. They gave some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers. But I'm not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a similar furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average price of the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless, because company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I want. *Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally got a subscription. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or vacation alot recovery is harder. I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside temp of' about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour. Current 26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so efficiency new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running constantly on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But any smaller and it cuts back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go to 60 at 11PM, back to 67 at 5:30AM I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and from the above, you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable temperature. *I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the internet *to set it back up when I'm on the way back. Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means less ability to set it back, even on a daily basis? As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have in the systems that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm thinking I'll probably wind up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in the credit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman. Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is 94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%. I wonder does it even run in 6 hrs at night on 6f cutback? a load calculation is really needed to know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller. The only real need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50% gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC. With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even. |
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#28
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 11:08*am, Home Guy wrote:
ransley wrote: I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Don't joke. *Next year they'll be running linux or android. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago the top results were suprising So post them here. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. Yes. *Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. *Take a magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they have on display. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. *ECM motors are a crock of ****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. *Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). *Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. *The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy. Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs higher). *ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception. Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor. So where are we? 1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%) furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or take) - which is good. *I do like that improvement. 2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30 years ago is bad. *Using stainless is good. 3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point of view compared to standing pilot light. *No real need to use electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace. 4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC squirrel cage motor. **Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify extra cost and reduced longevity. As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional pilot. *Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. *Give me the choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. *Give me all stainless for the exchangers. *If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of ****. Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around the AC coils instead of going through them. *You want efficiency? *It's not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it during the winter. It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside, force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the outside. *When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw outside air into the house directly? I dont know how to cut and paste yet but its 2008 CR magazine furnace survey Ecm Vsdc, it can run at 100watts vs 375 for my 1/4hp, thats near 70% saving in slow mode, maybe near 100w less at high speed. Who in the US pays only 0.10c per Kwh, you must live near a big Dam and get subsidised electric because im .18 and so is the rest of the US, many place are near 0.25 kwh. You miss the point, its comfort or else you wouldnt even have a heating system. Vsdc can remove in low speed maybe 50% more moisture with minimal cooling so its great in humid areas, great for homes with uneven heat. It is about comfort, but can save the cost of the motor in electric usage over 6-7 years. That was my figure years ago at . 125kwh. You have to know yearly hours run in heat and AC and a real Kwh cost to make any claim to it not paying back. Lifespan, are you refering to the old or new redesign motor. Electronic ignitions failing, so do thermocuples. |
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#29
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 1:50*pm, ransley wrote:
On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote: On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote: On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote: I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do have CR mag online, right. I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the same for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other. They gave some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers. But I'm not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a similar furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average price of the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless, because company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I want. *Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally got a subscription. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or vacation alot recovery is harder. I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside temp of' about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour. Current 26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so efficiency new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running constantly on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But any smaller and it cuts back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go to 60 at 11PM, back to 67 at 5:30AM I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and from the above, you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable temperature. *I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the internet *to set it back up when I'm on the way back. Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means less ability to set it back, even on a daily basis? As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have in the systems that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm thinking I'll probably wind up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in the credit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman. Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is 94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%. I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%% efficient. Don't you think 82% is way high? I'd expect that from a more modern furnace, eg the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient beast. If it's 65%, then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close. I wonder does it even run in 6 hrs at night on 6f cutback? I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if it's cold weather, probably from the low 20s on down. a load calculation is really needed to know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller. The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's going to do one. But it would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current one is just as useful, maybe more so. At least for the heating part. The only real need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50% gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC. With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text - That's about where I'm headed. The only issue I have now is that it would be good to have more cooling upstairs. Main issue there is the limited duct work originally installed. One thing I want to look into is more blower capacity to help with that. But I think the best solution would be a second AC system for upstairs. I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant doing that. So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's sufficient in rating to meet the tax credit. |
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#30
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 1:35*pm, wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:50*pm, ransley wrote: On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote: On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote: On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote: I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do have CR mag online, right. I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the same for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other. They gave some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers. But I'm not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a similar furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average price of the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless, because company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I want. *Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally got a subscription. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or vacation alot recovery is harder. I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside temp of' about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour. Current 26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so efficiency new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running constantly on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But any smaller and it cuts back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go to 60 at 11PM, back to 67 at 5:30AM I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and from the above, you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable temperature. *I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the internet *to set it back up when I'm on the way back. Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means less ability to set it back, even on a daily basis? As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have in the systems that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm thinking I'll probably wind up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in the credit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman. Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is 94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%. I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%% efficient. *Don't you think 82% is way high? * I'd expect that from a more modern furnace, eg the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient beast. *If it's 65%, then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close. I wonder does it even run in 6 hrs at night on 6f cutback? I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if it's cold weather, probably from the low 20s on down. a load calculation is really needed to know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller. The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's going to do one. * But it would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current one is just as useful, maybe more so. *At least for the heating part. The only real need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50% gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC. With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text - That's about where I'm headed. *The only issue I have now is that it would be good to have more cooling upstairs. *Main issue there is the limited duct work originally installed. *One thing I want to look into is more blower capacity to help with that. * But I think the best solution would be a second AC system for upstairs. *I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant doing that. So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's sufficient in rating to meet the tax credit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I know boilers have been 82% steady state running for over 110 years, My 1954 Kewanee steam 1.200,000 Btu is 82% running and a 110 yr old style or older, for boilers the reduced water supply is the main advantage today, for steam they are now still only 82% rated. Better controls, flue damper, electronic ignition and holding less water are steam boilers only improvements. For furnaces with the tank style exchanger I think those are less but if its clean, not way oversized, not short cycling, if the burners are burning right 82% is my guess. 1984 isnt that long ago, we went through a energy mess in the mid 70s and I was converting to flourescents as utility prices were going up.Google a bit and see if you can find out what things really were 26 years ago. Your payback might be alot less than you think with a new unit. |
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#31
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 5, 1:35*pm, wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:50*pm, ransley wrote: On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote: On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote: On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote: I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it. Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage, etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort, can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with high gas and electricity rates. I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old one..... I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do have CR mag online, right. I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the same for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other. They gave some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers. But I'm not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a similar furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average price of the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless, because company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I want. *Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally got a subscription. If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or vacation alot recovery is harder. I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside temp of' about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour. Current 26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so efficiency new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running constantly on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But any smaller and it cuts back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go to 60 at 11PM, back to 67 at 5:30AM I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and from the above, you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable temperature. *I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the internet *to set it back up when I'm on the way back. Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means less ability to set it back, even on a daily basis? As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have in the systems that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm thinking I'll probably wind up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in the credit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman. Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is 94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%. I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%% efficient. *Don't you think 82% is way high? * I'd expect that from a more modern furnace, eg the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient beast. *If it's 65%, then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close. I wonder does it even run in 6 hrs at night on 6f cutback? I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if it's cold weather, probably from the low 20s on down. a load calculation is really needed to know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller. The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's going to do one. * But it would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current one is just as useful, maybe more so. *At least for the heating part. The only real need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50% gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC. With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text - That's about where I'm headed. *The only issue I have now is that it would be good to have more cooling upstairs. *Main issue there is the limited duct work originally installed. *One thing I want to look into is more blower capacity to help with that. * But I think the best solution would be a second AC system for upstairs. *I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant doing that. So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's sufficient in rating to meet the tax credit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I just looked a bit, there were condensing furnaces 26 years ago. Can you find a Btu input-output rating, use that and take off maybe 5%, you might be near 60, or 80. |
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#32
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies
wrote: On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic operating principles are used in all brands. My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to Sears or Trane. Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is signifigant. Many folks have written that the installation is the important part. Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate, pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision. Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system may be needed. How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling output, not BTU input like a furnace. I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input is mentioned to calculate the efficiency. Am I right? Just curious. Jeff |
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#33
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
Steve wrote:
If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and adjusted, How exactly do you improperly install a furnace? If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in it's place? What is meant by improper? That a water line is connected to the gas input line? That the upstairs thermostat is connected to the furnace AC power input? That the return duct and output air plenum are connected backwards? aluminized steel or stainless.... either will give you a good service life. How does the correct sizing of a furnace impact on whether or not the heat exchanger lifespan is impacted by being stainless steel or regular steel? 90% of those (ECM motor) failures were due to incorrectly designed and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures. Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed contractors? Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor? I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up. Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork. Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of ****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace otherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy. you need to do some more homework here. You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my statements above are wrong. I'm right when I say that: 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4 hp AC motor running at full speed. 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the point of view of the home owner. 3) You can't compare the energy usage of an ECM motor running 1/4 or 1/2 speed against a single-speed AC motor. If you want to compare the costs of multi-speed operation, then you must compare ECM with a 2-speed AC motor, and you must correctly estimate the amount of time (total hours per year) that the fan will be running at fractional speed. Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception. ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan, Totally wrong, because you have to factor in the control or drive electronics that's powering the motor, and when you do, you'll end up with burned out transistors. use half the energy to run The efficiency of fractional horse-power ECM motors are (at best) 60%, while a 1/4 hp PSC AC motor will have an efficiency of 40% (if running at full speed). 1/4 horse power is about 186 watts, so an AC motor will use about 465 watts, while an ECM motor will use 310 watts. The difference (about 155 watts) would use 1,357 kw hours given a continuous 1-year run time. If the total electricity cost was 15 cents per kw hour, then that equates to $200 per year. Now if you consider the case of a 2-speed AC motor compared with a 2-speed (or even variable-speed ECM furnace) and if you factor in that in a typical use-case that neither motor would or could be operating for up to 25% of the time, then the potential savings from using an ECM motor will almost certainly drop to closer to $100 per year. Now if you factor in that the 155 watts of extra energy being used by the AC motor is given back to the house as heat, then you need to determine what that equates to in terms of cubic-feet of equivalent natural gas and subtract the cost of that amout of natural gas from your electricty bill to get the true additional electric cost by using an AC motor instead of an ECM motor. While all ECM motors are capable of infinitely variable speed and can be implimented as such by something as cheap and easy as programming code in the controller, furnace makers charge a fortune for anything more than simple 2-speed operation. That is another crock of **** for this industry. and are a whole lot quieter than PSC motors. I could argue that a belt-driven fan with an AC motor with bushings is quieter than a direct-drive ECM motor with ball bearings. Only the cheapest manufactures with the cheapest models of furnaces have issues with RFI. yes you will get what you pay for. Or so you think. There's no way that a home-owner (or even consumer reports) is going to know which units put out RFI, and which units actually give you what you pay for. Models change all the time - too fast for independant testing and analysis to have any effect or be useful for the buying public. Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor. The average system that I install uses 30% - 40% less energy to run. Which equates to 155 watts as I calculated above. So where are we? Talking about how you need to go back to school, and get up to speed with the new systems. Be a man and tell me where I've said anything wrong. 2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30 years ago is bad. Using stainless is good. Stainless is good, but also much more expensive. Will the additional cost be worth it in your location? Keep in mind that heating and cooling systems are not built to last forever. We're comparing 30 - 40 year-old furnace technology with conventional furnaces. If furnaces cost proportionately more today in terms of % of disposable income then I should expect no less durability or longevity compared to the older furnaces. You seem to be an appologist for the industry by indicating that we should pay more and expect less. 3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace. Please explain how this is so?? Because standing pilot lights have been used for decades and have proven themselves to be reliable, safe, simple, and cheap. or do you advocate removing half of the safety devices on the furnace in favor of a standing pilot?? The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to disagree? I don't know of *ANY* legitmate HVAC tech that would purposly want to remove safeties from any gas appliance. Removing the electronic ignition and replacing it with a pilot-light and thermocouple does not constitute "removing a safety" device. Get a grip here. 4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify extra cost and reduced longevity. Please explain how you come up with this. See above. Best case savings is $200 a year, typical savings will almost certainly be less than $100 a year. Anyone who lives in a climate zone where they expect to use their furnace at least 5 months out of the year will realize less than $100 savings in their combined electric and gas bill just by having a furnace with an ECM motor. Anyone who lives in a more temperate climate zone and runs their fan more often either alone or in conjunction with their A/C unit will come closer to the $200 in electricity savings. BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer We're talking simply about ECM motors replacing conventional PSC AC fan motors in residential furnaces. Motors that are part of other components (heat pumps, A/C compressors, dishwashers, clothes washers, dryers, etc) are another matter and have different cost/benefit arguments. As a consumer, give me the choice of (...) So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled.. The single largest decrease in my energy bill that the furnace industry can give me compared to what I have now comes from the 2-stage condensing heat exchanger. Better airflow design, thinner materials, stainless, possibly better burner design, etc. All of that comes from better thermodynamics and materials - NOT ELECTRONICS. The addition of electronics - particularly the electronic ignition and ECM fan motor, adds unnecessary cost and complication to the modern furnace with no tangible benefit to the home-owner and comes with additional medium to long-term cost of ownership costs and device down-time caused by component failure. Technology is a good thing when the contractor/installer/tech has the training, education, and experience Screw the contractor. I want a box that will sit there and work year after year. It's no consolation to me that a repair tech is just a phone call away. I'll take reliability and durability any day over repairability. Especially when it comes with lower up-front costs (no electronics). And in this case, I'm not even sacrificing repairability. Low tech = high repairability. to me it sounds like your not happy because its no longer a DIY proposition, and you can't make it work correctly. I can install myself any furnace. That's not the point. I'm just bitching about they choices that furnace makers are making when they design / build them. in case you haven't noticed, *EVERYTHING* has electronics in it these days. The electronics make things safer, and more energy efficient. When you have electronic ignition, you HAVE TO HAVE an array of electronic sensors to make it safe. Having those sensors and electronics comes with a price - a hit to cost, durability, reliability. When you have a standing pilot light with electro-mechanical thermocouple and gas valve, you don't need sensors or electronics, because it's inherently safe. FWIW, a good quality digital control can reduce your energy bills We're not talking about the thermost here. I can have the most advanced, computer-controlled thermostat I want upstairs to control my 35 year-old furnace, yet still have no electronics *in* my furnace. Understand the difference? |
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#34
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On 12/4/2010 4:13 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:47 -0500, Home wrote: That's why I'd preferr to retro-fit the furnace with standard technology and do away with all the sensors. It's crazy that they removed the standing pilot light (which uses maybe $10 worth of gas all year) and they went with electronic ignition, and by doing so they had to add all sorts of temperature sensors to know if the main gas supply should be shut off in case the ignitor doesn't work. Talk about over-kill to save $10 worth of gas (even less if you normally turn off your pilot light in the summer). I don't like all the fail safe points on the new furnaces, because any one of them failing can leave you without heat. But you've got your work cut out to modify as you want to. First, toss the motherboard. Toss the ignitor. Toss the flame sensor. Toss the roll out sensors. Toss the inducer, or unplug it. Find a thermocouple controlled gas valve that will fit in place of the electronically controlled valve that came with the unit. Rig a pilot light. Then figure out what to do with the many loose wires, how to relay the main fan speed (you tossed the existing relays with the motherboard), decide whether to rig an over temp sensor, etc. You might need to rig a new transformer if that was on the motherboard. I don't know. I briefly considered replacing the motherboard on mine when I was mentally shotgunning parts (I only wasted 6 bucks on an inducer diaphragm valve.) The mass of wires connected to the motherboard scared me off. I always got it going again by cleaning the flame sensor. Even if I had just cleaned it a couple days ago. Main fan was always inconsistent too, sometimes running for a minute after flame off, sometimes not. When the main fan relay (on motherboard) stuck so there was only low speed - not enough to heat/cool - I called in a pro. He had it going in 10 seconds by flexing the motherboard. Said it could stick again, so I had him put in a new motherboard. Took the pro about 15 minutes to replace the motherboard. He only cussed twice. No problems for the 3 years since. That motherboard was flaky from the getgo. I think flaky/failing motherboards are the biggest problem with modern furnaces, not the sensors. Heat, undersized relays, etc. A flame sensor problem is easy to diagnose - gas valve opens, then closes. Cleaning sensor with steel wool always fixed that. Ignitor failure is easy to diagnose - inducer clicks diaphragm switch, and no glow within 15 seconds. Replaced one ignitor. MB leds give that info too. Sensors and ignitors are cheap and easy to replace. Motherboards cost hundreds - think mine was $320. Came across a post somewhere where a guy had 2 Carrier motherboards fail in 4 years, so he wired external relays to take the load and the 3rd motherboard has lasted 6-7 years so far. Next time I get a furnace I'll call up the same pro and pay for a service call just to pick his brain on this type of thing before I make my decision. Problem is, as somebody else said, models are always changing, and some reliable models get discontinued. Almost like buying a first year model car - you don't know what bad was engineered into it. Then, if you talk to a pro repairman who also does installs you have to be wary of his prejudices. It's human nature. Anyway, I wager you won't try to do the modifications I've mentioned when you replace that old furnace. I'm a gambling man (-: Wouldn't mind being wrong on that bet though if you come back and tell us how you did it. --Vic Can't figure out whether you are serious or pulling our legs about making such comprehensive and radical "modifications" to the modern high efficiency gas furnace. I suspect that anyone following your advice would end up with a system that (1) was substantially less efficient than it could/should be, and (2) was unsafe to the point of probably failing many or even most safety codes for using natural gas furnaces in private residences. Are you a believer in conspiracy theories that the all the manufacturers of these furnaces got together and agreed to intentionally fill their products with expensive, unnecessary and failure-prone components so that they all could reap larger profits? You would have to be. Otherwise, at least one or two of the companies would leave out many or all the components you advise removing and advertise that their products were equally safe, equally efficient, but much more reliable and less expensive that their competitors that include those components. I don't know squat about engineering a gas furnace, but your advice just doesn't compute with me. |
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#35
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve wrote: I will interject my $.02 here... How exactly do you improperly install a furnace? By having too high of a TESP (total external static pressure. If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in it's place? Older furnaces had a lower CFM rating, hence they have a higher temp rise for a given output BTU rating. Newer equipment for effeciency's sake have thinner heat exchangers (less metal thickness to push the heat through) that can't tolerate the heat without cracking hence they have a higher CFM rating, hence more TESP by trying to shove more CFM through the existing ductwork. Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed contractors? Sometimes, just go to the hvac-talk.com wall of shame and see all the bad ductwork installations, many being a "ductopus" using flex duct. Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor? Yes, and here is why. Your average PSC or split-phase induction blower motor on high runs at a fairly constant speed (a 4 pole motor can only speed up from its rated speed, usually 1725 RPM to just under 1800 RPM @ 60Hz). With a centrifugal blower (squirrel cage) the torque load on the motor is directly controlled by the amount of air flowing through it (ande vice versa), hence as you restrict the airflow (increase the SP) say with undersized ductwork the blower unloads. Less torque at the same speed means less HP (HP=torque in ft-lbs x RPM / 5252) hence less motor watts. An underloaded motor is less effecient but lasts longer. Too little TESP on a system with an induction motor can actually overload the motor, hence why old systems that had belt drive blowers usually has a variable pitch sheave on the motor. The belt ratio hence wheel speed was adjusted to run the motor at full load with a new system. As the ductwork and/or filter got dirty the TESP went up and the motor unloaded some. Now here is where it gets tricky, ECMs as used on indoor blowers are constant torque NOT constant speed. The shaft torque is held constant hence the airflow is held mostly constant. Increase the TESP on these systems and the blower speeds up either till the torque/airflow goes back to rated or till the motor hits its top speed limit. More RPM X same torque / 5252 = More HP = more watts. More watts x same airflow means hotter electronics hence shorter life. Add in a plugged filter and the poor little motor runs its little heart out at max speed with little cooling airflow till it burns up. I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up. Explained above. Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork. You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my statements above are wrong. I'm right when I say that: 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4 hp AC motor running at full speed. As said this depends on TESP. At high TESP the ECM can use more watts than the PSC. 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the point of view of the home owner. Electric resistance heat is usually more expensive than gas heat and in the summer it is just more sensible heat load on the evaporator hence more watts still loses. |
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#36
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 6, 4:06*pm, "Daniel who wants to know" wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in .... Steve wrote: I will interject my $.02 here... How exactly do you improperly install a furnace? By having too high of a TESP (total external static pressure. If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in it's place? Older furnaces had a lower CFM rating, hence they have a higher temp rise for a given output BTU rating. Newer equipment for effeciency's sake have thinner heat exchangers (less metal thickness to push the heat through) that can't tolerate the heat without cracking hence they have a higher CFM rating, hence more TESP by trying to shove more CFM through the existing ductwork. Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed contractors? Sometimes, just go to the hvac-talk.com wall of shame and see all the bad ductwork installations, many being a "ductopus" using flex duct. Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor? Yes, and here is why. *Your average PSC or split-phase induction blower motor on high runs at a fairly constant speed (a 4 pole motor can only speed up from its rated speed, usually 1725 RPM to just under 1800 RPM @ 60Hz). With a centrifugal blower (squirrel cage) the torque load on the motor is directly controlled by the amount of air flowing through it (ande vice versa), hence as you restrict the airflow (increase the SP) say with undersized ductwork the blower unloads. Less torque at the same speed means less HP (HP=torque in ft-lbs x RPM / 5252) hence less motor watts. *An underloaded motor is less effecient but lasts longer. *Too little TESP on a system with an induction motor can actually overload the motor, hence why old systems that had belt drive blowers usually has a variable pitch sheave on the motor. *The belt ratio hence wheel speed was adjusted to run the motor at full load with a new system. *As the ductwork and/or filter got dirty the TESP went up and the motor unloaded some. Now here is where it gets tricky, ECMs as used on indoor blowers are constant torque NOT constant speed. The shaft torque is held constant hence the airflow is held mostly constant. Increase the TESP on these systems and the blower speeds up either till the torque/airflow goes back to rated or till the motor hits its top speed limit. More RPM X same torque / 5252 = More HP = more watts. *More watts x same airflow means hotter electronics hence shorter life. *Add in a plugged filter and the poor little motor runs its little heart out at max speed with little cooling airflow till it burns up. A while back I came across a study done on the savings of ECM blowers in residential HVAC applications segmented by geographic regions/climates. One key result of that study, which I didn't expect and I believe is reflected in what you say, is that how much energy one saves depends to a large extent on the duct work. The greatest savings came from ideal duct work, ie lowest pressure. Next was good duct work, which also used significantly less savings. Duct work they classified as typical still got savings, but much more modest, maybe 15- 20% in electricity cost. However if you have poor ducting there can be no savings or even a net loss of up to I think about 10%. The energy savings also obviously depends on the climate. But I think HomeGuy has a vaild point, at least to some extent. Whether you can recover enough in energy savings on an ECM versus the increased upfront cost as well as the real potential for higher repair bills is questionable. I've seen horror stories here of the ECM electronics fried by power surges for example and a $600 bill But I've never heard of a conventional furnace blower failing from a power surge. Also, I think you'd agree that if improper duct sizing can screw it an cause it to fail, it's entirely possible that some contractors who don't know what they are doing will result in the motor failing at some point. And if that point is after the warranty is up, then you're screwed. I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up. Explained above. Blame the ductwork. *When you have to explain to the customer why his new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.. You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my statements above are wrong. I'm right when I say that: 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4 hp AC motor running at full speed. As said this depends on TESP. *At high TESP the ECM can use more watts than the PSC. 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the point of view of the home owner. Electric resistance heat is usually more expensive than gas heat and in the summer it is just more sensible heat load on the evaporator hence more watts still loses. This same faulty logic is frequently applied to water heaters with claims that the standby losses from storage tank models helps heat the house. For some reason, they completely forget that for most of us with AC, that gain turns into a loss in the summer. |
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#37
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Dec 6, 4:22*pm, wrote:
On Dec 6, 4:06*pm, "Daniel who wants to know" wrote: "Home Guy" wrote in ... Steve wrote: I will interject my $.02 here... How exactly do you improperly install a furnace? By having too high of a TESP (total external static pressure. If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in it's place? Older furnaces had a lower CFM rating, hence they have a higher temp rise for a given output BTU rating. Newer equipment for effeciency's sake have thinner heat exchangers (less metal thickness to push the heat through) that can't tolerate the heat without cracking hence they have a higher CFM rating, hence more TESP by trying to shove more CFM through the existing ductwork. Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed contractors? Sometimes, just go to the hvac-talk.com wall of shame and see all the bad ductwork installations, many being a "ductopus" using flex duct. Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor? Yes, and here is why. *Your average PSC or split-phase induction blower motor on high runs at a fairly constant speed (a 4 pole motor can only speed up from its rated speed, usually 1725 RPM to just under 1800 RPM @ 60Hz). With a centrifugal blower (squirrel cage) the torque load on the motor is directly controlled by the amount of air flowing through it (ande vice versa), hence as you restrict the airflow (increase the SP) say with undersized ductwork the blower unloads. Less torque at the same speed means less HP (HP=torque in ft-lbs x RPM / 5252) hence less motor watts. *An underloaded motor is less effecient but lasts longer. *Too little TESP on a system with an induction motor can actually overload the motor, hence why old systems that had belt drive blowers usually has a variable pitch sheave on the motor. *The belt ratio hence wheel speed was adjusted to run the motor at full load with a new system. *As the ductwork and/or filter got dirty the TESP went up and the motor unloaded some. Now here is where it gets tricky, ECMs as used on indoor blowers are constant torque NOT constant speed. The shaft torque is held constant hence the airflow is held mostly constant. Increase the TESP on these systems and the blower speeds up either till the torque/airflow goes back to rated or till the motor hits its top speed limit. More RPM X same torque / 5252 = More HP = more watts. *More watts x same airflow means hotter electronics hence shorter life. *Add in a plugged filter and the poor little motor runs its little heart out at max speed with little cooling airflow till it burns up. A while back I came across a study done on the savings of ECM blowers in residential HVAC applications segmented by geographic regions/climates. *One key result of that study, which I didn't expect and I believe is reflected in what you say, is that how much energy one saves depends to a large extent on the duct work. *The greatest savings came from ideal duct work, ie lowest pressure. * Next was good duct work, which also used significantly less savings. * Duct work they classified as typical still got savings, but much more modest, maybe 15- 20% in electricity cost. *However if you have poor ducting there can be no savings or even a net loss of up to I think about 10%. *The energy savings also obviously depends on the climate. But I think HomeGuy has a vaild point, at least to some extent. Whether you can recover enough *in energy savings on an ECM versus the increased upfront cost as well as the real potential for *higher repair bills is questionable. *I've seen horror stories here of the ECM electronics fried *by power surges for example and a $600 bill *But I've never heard of a conventional furnace blower *failing from a power surge. Also, I think you'd agree that if improper duct sizing can screw it an cause it to fail, it's entirely possible that some contractors who don't know what they are doing will result in the motor failing at some point. *And if that point is after the warranty is up, then you're screwed. I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up. Explained above. Blame the ductwork. *When you have to explain to the customer why his new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork. You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my statements above are wrong. I'm right when I say that: 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4 hp AC motor running at full speed. As said this depends on TESP. *At high TESP the ECM can use more watts than the PSC. 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the point of view of the home owner. Electric resistance heat is usually more expensive than gas heat and in the summer it is just more sensible heat load on the evaporator hence more watts still loses. This same faulty logic is frequently applied to water heaters with claims that the standby losses from storage tank models helps heat the house. * For some reason, they completely forget that for most of us with AC, that gain turns into a loss in the summer.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If a power surge fried the blower it would have got the control panel first. With any new unit you should be doubly sure its surge protected and well grounded since you will have alot of electronics. When I got my install they offered to somehow test my duct airflow, thats where shopping for the right pro is important. I heard those motors were redesigned a few years ago to separate the electronics from the heat of the motor, since the electronics were what failed and now the motor and design has finaly matured. |
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#38
Posted to alt.home.repair,alt.hvac
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:30:00 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
Steve wrote: snip How exactly do you improperly install a furnace? snip 90% of those (ECM motor) failures were due to incorrectly designed and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures. Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed contractors? Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor? It is quite possible. A belt drive blower could put up with an awfull lot I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up. Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork. Not necessarily - but if the installer does not do the temperature rize test and properly set the motor speed, you could get a failure due to improper installation. Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of ****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace otherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy. You underestimate the difference in efficiency between a standard induction motor and an electronically commutated DC motor, PARTICULARLY with multi-speed AC motors. At lower speeds ECMs can save over 60% of the electricity used by PSC motors. For example, in low speed circulation a typical PSC furnace motor will use 350 to 500 Watts while an ECM will use 75 - 125 W. You need to read the entire study at: http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf, but an interesting part is the following - with the same airflow, "The power use of the ECM and the PSC motor were measured in one-time tests using a Nanovip power meter. The ECM used 16.5 Watts in circulation speed and 284 W in heating speed, while the PSC motor used 350 W in circulation and 490 W in heating. Thus, the ECM used 58% as much as the PSC motor in heating speed, but only 5% as much in circulation. The ECMs flow rate was almost identical to the PSCs in heating speed, and was 47% of the PSCs in circulation speed." you need to do some more homework here. Ditto You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my statements above are wrong. I'm right when I say that: 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4 hp AC motor running at full speed. The National Research Council study quoted shows 206 watts difference on high speed, and 330 watts less on low speed. 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the point of view of the home owner. Except when running the AC - and gas is cheaper than electricity for heating. 3) You can't compare the energy usage of an ECM motor running 1/4 or 1/2 speed against a single-speed AC motor. If you want to compare the costs of multi-speed operation, then you must compare ECM with a 2-speed AC motor, and you must correctly estimate the amount of time (total hours per year) that the fan will be running at fractional speed. Or do as the National Research Council did, read the study - very comprehensive testing. Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception. ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan, Totally wrong, because you have to factor in the control or drive electronics that's powering the motor, and when you do, you'll end up with burned out transistors. Actually, they are finding the ECM to last at least as long as the AC motor in many tests. (in part because they run cooler). The motor control electronics are the least troublesom of all the controls on modern furnaces. SNIP The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to disagree? I do. I've replaced too many thermocouples on standing pilot furnaces - and NO electonic ignitors so far on the new furnaces. Average lifespan of my thermocouples has been less than 7 years (5 in 22 years on my own furnace, and 5 in 7 years on my friend's gas boiler) I'm on #3 on my water heater as well. This is, I believe, year 8 on the electronic ignition furnace. SNIP See above. Best case savings is $200 a year, typical savings will almost certainly be less than $100 a year. Anyone who lives in a climate zone where they expect to use their furnace at least 5 months out of the year will realize less than $100 savings in their combined electric and gas bill just by having a furnace with an ECM motor. Anyone who lives in a more temperate climate zone and runs their fan more often either alone or in conjunction with their A/C unit will come closer to the $200 in electricity savings. The blower in my furnace runs at low speed 100% of the time that the furnace is not running on high for heat or a/c. (for air cleaner and overall comfort) If the furnace NEVER kicked on, the ECM saves me 2890kwh per year. (330 watts X 24 hrs/day X 365=2890800 wh).That's $232 at $0.08 per kwh. and that's not counting the savings when the furnace is actually running. And the actual cost of electricity is more than $0.08/kwh here when you add in the distribution charges and everything else, and throw on 13% HST BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer We're talking simply about ECM motors replacing conventional PSC AC fan motors in residential furnaces. Motors that are part of other components (heat pumps, A/C compressors, dishwashers, clothes washers, dryers, etc) are another matter and have different cost/benefit arguments. As a consumer, give me the choice of (...) So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled.. The single largest decrease in my energy bill that the furnace industry can give me compared to what I have now comes from the 2-stage condensing heat exchanger. Better airflow design, thinner materials, stainless, possibly better burner design, etc. All of that comes from better thermodynamics and materials - NOT ELECTRONICS. Actually, IF the condensing furnace is 7% more efficient than the equivalent non-condensing furnace, (97 vs 90) the fuel savings will be about 8%. With my total annual gas bill of $700 (part of which is my water heater) my maximum total gas savings would be less than $56 per year. Not a very attractive payback, particularly if I end up replacing the secondary heat exchanger in 10 years. SNIP |
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#39
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:29:03 -0500, mm wrote:
On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies wrote: On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic operating principles are used in all brands. My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to Sears or Trane. Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is signifigant. Many folks have written that the installation is the important part. Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate, pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision. Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system may be needed. How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling output, not BTU input like a furnace. I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input is mentioned to calculate the efficiency. Am I right? The ones I've looked at are rated as BTU input, primarily because they have a fixed operating point (orifice sizes, pressures, etc.) and the efficiency isn't well regulated. The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU output calculated, though. |
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#40
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 12:01:04 -0500, Peter wrote:
Can't figure out whether you are serious or pulling our legs about making such comprehensive and radical "modifications" to the modern high efficiency gas furnace No, my furnace is stock modern. I was just telling Home Guy what it would take to make a modern furnace work like his old one. --Vic |
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