On Dec 4, 2:13*am, mm wrote:
On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:14:01 +0000,





(brians) wrote:
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...e-AC-recommend...
brians wrote:

wrote:

I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? *

I had four guys out last month to look at my house, for a new oil
furnace and AC. *It would have only been three, but the first company
struck me as incompetent, and indeed, I don't think they ever got back
to me with even a price! *I called them because they did my new next
door neighbor's AC (her new home insurance paid for it, on a 31-year
old house! Amazing, I think.) and she was satisfied, and they are only
4 blocks away *

It might have only been two estimates, but they waylaid me in Home
Depot and were so eager to send someone, who am I to say no.

My concentration is not what it used to be, and I've never been good
at shopping for complicated things****, and before this started, I
assumed that every company would either include a furnace humidifier
in the price (and force people who didn't want one to notice and get
them to take it off), or would try to sell me a humidifier. *In fact,
none of them even mentioned it! *But I remembered to ask the last guy
and he pooh poohed the idea. *Said I didn't need one. *Baloney. *I had
one for 20 plus years, and it makes the house feel just as warm even
when the temp is lower. *Yes, it takes some heat to evaporate (is that
the same as vaporize?) the water, but it's a substantial net savings,
I'm sure. I think the temp can be 2 to 4 degrees cooler when the
humidity is "normal", neither high nor low, as opposed to the dryness
of a northern winter indoors with a furnace and no source of humidity.

****Except cars.

I've never had condensation problems, on windows or anywhere, probably
because I don't set the humidifier to maximum, even the cheap little
one I have had.

Plus it's good for the furniture not to be in air so dry the furniture
cracks. *Especially pianos and expensive furniture. * And maybe
violins and woodwinds. * Of course if you haven't had one up till now,
maybe all the cracking it can do has been done already. *I don't know,
you'll have to ask a furniture guy about that. * But you may get new,
expensive furniture and a humidifier is good. (When my brother was in
Viet Nam during the war, he bought a wooden carving of someone, about
9 inches tall by 2" wide, and it got cracks the entire length of the
carving, 3/16" wide!)

Anyhow, he wanted 800 dollars for the humidifier. *When I squinted, he
said his wholesale cost was 600. *The most expensive one at Home Depot
is less than 200, and I don't believe it's much worse. *In addition,
he didn't have a flyer for the furnace! but he did for the humidifier,
and it was a bypass humidifier, which requires a round (flexible?)
duct from the return to the humidifier, which is in the furnace
outgoing duct. * Because of how my furnace and every replacement I've
looked at my neighbors' houses is set up, it's too thick to fit
between the duct and the flue. * But I know what would happen if I
signed the contract. *They'd include it, and half way through
installation they 'd come to me and say it won't fit so they're going
to skip it.

Online however they have a Honeywell (non-bypass) Humidifier for under
200 that gets good ratings. *I might buy that first and have them put
it in. *Amazon sells it, among other places, and says "People who have
e bought this also bought this humidistat." * One annoyed guy
commented that he had taken their word for this and bought a
humidistat, only to find that one is included with the humidifier.
Not surprisingly. *I can get you the model number if you want, but so
far it was the only name brand, the only non-bypass humidifier I've
found.


A agree with you on the value of a good humidifier. As long as you
set it correctly,
it keeps the house far more comfortable, avoids those static shocks,
etc, without
water condensing and doing damage. I currently have an Aprilaire 700,
which is only
a year old and I plan on having them move it to the new furnace. Over
the years
I've seen so many positive comments on Aprilaire and I agree with
them. It's the
best one I've seen. The 700 is a non-bypass model and it includes an
outdoor
temp sensor so that it autmatically reduces the humidity level as the
outdoor temp
drops.





Another strange thing is that onely one of them tried to sell me
anything that would qualify for the tax credit. *Maybe that's because
they didn't think I could afford it, but that's silly because with the
credit, it would usually cost no more than what they were trying to
sell me! *In fact, you may want to plug in your own numbers, but my
impression about the AC was that the cheapest qualifying AC is more
expensive than the next less efficient one by the same amount as the
credit. *That is, you get the upgrade to the better model for free,
but you don't really save money other than that, on the purchase. This
should be fairly easy to calculate with assurance. You get a refund of
so much percent, so many dollars, and you can find out the increase in
price from the model one step less efficient. *(Or you can just buy
one. *I wish I were capable of just buying one.)

And thn you save some money every year after that. *Although even the
13 SEER (or whatever) is probably a good deal more efficient than what
you have, and the one that qualifies for the credit is only a little
more efficient than the one right below it that doesn't qualify.

It's amazing that they didn't mention or directly show you the tax
benefits.
The first company I have coming prominently features that in their
newspaper
ads. And I was thinking the same thing that you say above. That
the tax
credit is likely enough to about pay for the difference in price
between a somewhat
less efficient system that I might have bought vs one that meets the
reqts for
the credit. I think here there may also be a $1000 utility credit.
Combined that
could cut $2500 off the price, which is substantial.




(I need an oil furnace, so, while I ended up learning about gas too,
others can probably answer better.)

Very few oil burners are 90% efficient, and I guess they are
expensive. *One of the oldest places in town, in the same family for
80 or 90 years, 3rd generation, told me almost no one buys those, so
the only part of the oil furnace that qualifies is a multi-speed fan.

Now unlike 30 years ago when the fan was one speed any time it's
running, now every fan has 2 speeds, one for AC and one for heat, but
multi-speed fans, ECM's, Electronically Controlled Motors (Fans), have
multiple speeds for different parts of the heating cycle and the
cooling cycle. * In an oil furnace, 19 to 24 percent of the furnace
cost can be attributed to the fan -- the furnace company will tell you
the number -- and then one can get the credit on that part of the
furnace. * But again, no one tried to sell me the mulit-speed fan, and
the guy with the 90 years and great reputation told me he didn't sell
oil furnaces with multi-speed fans. *He said that on the phone, and he
wasn't one who came out for an estimate. *I thought no one made them
but they do.

I still haven't found out how the multi-speed fan works, when it's low
speed, when it's mid-speed, and when it's high, and why it saves
money. *It's seems clear that the fan uses a lot of current,
especially on high speed, but how it uses less when it's multi-speed,
and still gets the job done, I don't know. *Frankly, my single speed
fan gets the job done, and only runs when the heat is on (or the AC)
which isn't that long in suburban Baltimore, and I like the feeling of
the blowing warm air. * There's a duct right next to me when I sit at
the computer. *I still don't have any idea what benefit I woudl get
from a multi-speed fan. * Also, if the circulating air doesn't
circulate through the furnace fast enough, currently that would be a
problem. I don't know what could be different about modern furnaces,
oil or gas, that would make that different.

I think one way it saves energy by using a lower speed when it can is
that with any fluid the energy it takes to move it increases
logarithmatically
with the speed. For example, with pool pumps, they now have multi-
speed
that circulate the water slowly for a much longer time. Even though
it runs
longer, it still moves the same amount of water with like 50% less
energy.

Also, I think the most efficient motors are now DC, which generally
are
completely variable in speed. But that's probably an example of what
I
would skip, because while it can save some more energy, it does add
complexity and if that motor, controller, etc fail, from what I've
heard, it's
a lot more costly than a two speed motor.




BTW, I've bbeen reading instructinos for installing AC, and they say
to flush and/or clean the pipes connecting the inside to the outside.
After 31 years, it seems worth it, and simpler, to replace them. *IN
my case they are only about 6 feet long.

Good info. That's one thing I might not have thought to even ask. I
would
have assumed that considering mine are 26 years old, they would just
automatically replace them. Seems that would make sense for not only
the company, but also the manufacturer with their warrantly, etc. I
definitely want mine replaced.


Thanks for all the info.