Like that the side that opens goes toward the open area of the cellar?
That kind of thing?

Cleanouts for the condensate line, and the zillion other details.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

You should never have to defend yourself for being a true craftsman
who
takes pride in his work. A neat and proper installation is easier to
service, especially if the installer takes into consideration the
simple
fact that the system has to be serviced. :-)

TDD

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:09:38 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:06:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:27:48 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:14:02 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:

The finest equipment in the world is worthless if installed
improperly.

You totally missed the point.

What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those
national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC
company to install it?

How would that result in improper installation?

The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC
company for the furnace.

Asshole - you really think you get 'wholesale price' like
that ? Yeh, you probably think if a car dealership sells you a car at
'$ 100 below invoice', they lost money on the deal. after all, they
showed you on the invoice 'what they paid for it', right ?

Anyone who is actualy in the business laughs out loud at the
'Internet wholesale' prices for any parts or equipment. It's double
what they pay at the local supply house.
Sometimes that is true.

HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for
less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less -
but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible
warranty.

Then it's not really apples-to-apples.


Same situation with buyng a furnace on the internet.

Identical product, significant price reduction, bur lotsa gotchas.

On 12/15/2010 5:17 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:09:38 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:06:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:27:48 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:14:02 -0500, Home wrote:

The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:

The finest equipment in the world is worthless if installed
improperly.

You totally missed the point.

What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those
national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC
company to install it?

How would that result in improper installation?

The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC
company for the furnace.

Asshole - you really think you get 'wholesale price' like
that ? Yeh, you probably think if a car dealership sells you a car at
'$ 100 below invoice', they lost money on the deal. after all, they
showed you on the invoice 'what they paid for it', right ?

Anyone who is actualy in the business laughs out loud at the
'Internet wholesale' prices for any parts or equipment. It's double
what they pay at the local supply house.
Sometimes that is true.

HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for
less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less -
but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible
warranty.

Then it's not really apples-to-apples.


Same situation with buyng a furnace on the internet.

Identical product, significant price reduction, bur lotsa gotchas.

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy. I've
looked into buying some items over the net but the shipping eats up
any savings in purchase price.

TDD

On 12/15/2010 4:43 PM, wrote:
On Dec 15, 12:41 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 12/15/2010 8:14 AM, The Home Guy who is clueless about HVAC wrote:

The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:

The finest equipment in the world is worthless if installed
improperly.

You totally missed the point.

What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those
national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC
company to install it?

How would that result in improper installation?

The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC
company for the furnace.

No HVAC company will guarantee any equipment they don't supply. Me and
my friends have installed used or new equipment supplied by a customer,
usually commercial, with the explicit understand that nothing is under
any warranty. You're not going to get any high end name brand equipment
unless you go through an authorized dealer.

So, who wants high end name brand eqt? I've had 36 years of
experience with
Ruud and all I've had fail is one AC compressor. I replaced just the
compressor, not
the whole condenser. And I installed a hard-start kit on my current
system that is still
running after 26 years. Consumer Reports survey had Ruud/Rheem as
lower incidents
of repairs than Trane or Carrier, though they said statistically the
differences were not
meaningful. And you can buy Rheem/Ruud online.

Not saying that I would do that or advise doing it, just that it can
be done.



If you do, the manufacturer
is going to take action against whoever supplied the equipment when they
find out. Your savings are an illusion.

TDD


If you can work on your own stuff, go for it. I do more repair than
replace myself. A lot of HVAC companies will replace a whole condensing
unit rather than the blown compressor because it's easier and they make
the same profit quicker. I had an old fellow I know call me when another
company came out to his house and told him his old Carrier condensing
unit had to be replaced. The only thing wrong was a burned out condenser
fan motor. The fan motor was a two speed which slowed down at night when
the outside temperature dropped making the unit very quiet. There was
also a sound insulating cover over the compressor. It was the most
expensive unit produced by Carrier when he bought it years before and it
was very well made. It had stainless steel hardware and there was no
rust on it anywhere. It had a factory sight glass and liquid line dryer.
It had an anti short cycle timer and both high and low pressure switches
tied into the control circuitry to protect the compressor. I told the
fellow not to let anyone tell him he needed a new unit when that one
could be repaired because it was built better than most of the new units
I'd seen. Simple maintenance can keep an HVAC system running trouble
free for a long time, especially if it was properly installed and setup.

TDD

On 12/15/2010 3:13 PM, HeyBub wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

Looks like I touched a nerve with all you HVAC installer crooks.

Yeh - the 'OMG, not another one of THESE assholes !' nerve.

He'll be calling you a Democrat next. :-)


That's pretty extreme, don't you think?


Like I tell folks, I'm not a Republican, Republicans disgust me but
Democrats are special, they horrify me. :-)

TDD

On 12/15/2010 5:05 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Like that the side that opens goes toward the open area of the cellar?
That kind of thing?

Cleanouts for the condensate line, and the zillion other details.


I got my friends to start using 3/4" PVC unions on the drain lines
coming off the evaporators. Most morons glue the whole darn thing
together making it difficult to clear a stopped up line. The drains
I install are easy to service. A lot of installers don''t think,
they just want to slap the equipment in there as quickly as they can
with no consideration for the service tech who has to work on it later.

TDD

wrote:

I can say '**** off, bitch, my company policy is that you
don't cut me out of my profit like that, so get to steppin'.

Here's what I'll do.

I'll call your company and ask for a quote for a furnace. You'll send
out one of your sales guys (who might also be a tech / installer) and
he'll measure and scope out my house and I'll end up getting a quote for
2 or 3 difference furnaces. I'll ask him if he's an installer. If he
says no, I'll ask him for a name or two of one of your installers.

I'll then buy one of those furnaces from an internet retailer, have it
delivered, and I'll bring it downstairs to my basement. I'll pay
probably about $1250 +/- 250 for the furnace, probably close to half of
what's on your quote (assuming you even break out the price of the
hardware on your quotes).

I'll then call one of your installers and I'll offer him $750 cash under
the table to install the furnace the next weekend (or when-ever it's
conveinent for him). I'll get his HVAC license number for the warranty
card that came with the furnace, and I'll even fill in your company on
the warrany card if there's a line for that, and I'll send in the
warranty to the manufacturer for future coverage.

I'll tell your guy that if there's a problem with the furnace in the
future, I'll call him and pay him under the table to perform any
servicing and warranty repair work, and he'll say that he'll be happy to
do it.

I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.

How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I found the "wholesale" prices to be very amusing. :-)

But still cheaper than what home-owners see from local HVAC crooks.

wrote:

I really can't imagine an authorized dealer will agree to install
eqpt that someone buys online.

Last time I looked, we were in a recession, and nobody's turning away
business.

I can see where HomeGuy is going. I already had looked up prices
for the HVAC system I was getting quoted. I have quotes for $7700
to $8500.

Did the quotes break-out the price for the hardware separately?

I can buy the gas furnace, AC, and media air cleaner
online for $4200.

I would have thought you could buy all that for closer to $3500 easily.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy.

UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.

If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical
order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces
can be shipped cheap as well.

Home Guy wrote:

I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.

How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.

Oh wait, I forgot.

If I don't buy the furnace from you, you might not get that incentive
reward from Goodman or Trane or York. You know, the free trip to
Hawaii?

On 12/15/2010 6:45 PM, Home Guy wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I found the "wholesale" prices to be very amusing. :-)

But still cheaper than what home-owners see from local HVAC crooks.

Not every HVAC company or HVAC tech is a crook. The crooks are well
known to the repair guys and are hated. The dishonest service people
give everyone a bad name and the good honest service techs get very
upset when hearing about what one of the crooks pulled off. I spent
a couple of hours at a deposition involving a lawsuit against one of
the crooks who vandalized the AC belonging to the elderly mother of
a friend of mine. Those crooks shorted out her compressor and told
her she needed $5,500.00 worth of new system. I wasn't about to let that
happen. The crooks called her out of the phone book with a
$69.95 spring tuneup special which is something a lot of less than
altruistic service companies do to get their foot in the door to take
advantage of the less than knowledgeable customers, especially the
elderly. You can usually spot the crooks by their shiny new trucks.

TDD

On 12/15/2010 6:53 PM, Home Guy wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy.

UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.

If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical
order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces
can be shipped cheap as well.

I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the
cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it
for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a
defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)

TDD

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:13:45 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/15/2010 6:53 PM, Home Guy wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy.

UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.

If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical
order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces
can be shipped cheap as well.

I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the
cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it
for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a
defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)

I got a good price on my 600 pound Unisaw a couple of years ago, with cheap
shipping too (Amazon Free Super Saver). ...and no sales tax. ;-)

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 18:17:20 -0500, wrote:

OK - I've got some numbers.

I dug out the handy Amprobe and checked the current draw on my
Tempstar ntv6050fb furnace.

On low speed circulate it is drawing .21 amps at 116 volts AC.
When it calls for heat and the Eductor fan is on high, and the hot
plate ignitor is on, it draws just over 2.2 amps. When the gas lights
and the ignitor shuts down, it draws 2.0 amps, and with the furnace
running normally, the unit draws all of 1.5 amps. Thats about 175 VA.

Yesterday the furnace ran 6 hours and 17 minutes, and so far today 4
hour and 12 minutes. Yesterday was a pretty cold and windy day.
If it runs 6.25 hours a day at 175.3 va, that is just a hair ovr 1kWh
per day, and the low speed blower, running the other 17.75 hours at 34
va, consumes another .6 kWh.

IF the furnace cycles 20 times (I have not counted, but I figured I'd
guess on the high side) the eductor and ignitor, running aprox 1.5
minute for each cycle, draw another .7 amps,for another 0.3 ah or .035
kWh per day - for a total of something just over 1.6 kWh per
day.(48kWh per month)
At 7.5 cents per kWh for the first 1000 per month, and 8.5 cents per
kWh from there up, over and above the roughly $16 per month
"distribution fee" from Waterloo North Hydro, if I didn't use
electricity for anything else to spread the distribution fee over, it
would cost me about $20 a month to run the furnace.
Since I DO use electricity for other things, the incremental cost to
run the furnace is only something like $4 per month for the
electricity.

A half HP PSC motor, running only with the furnace calling for heat,at
475 va, would consume 93 kWh of power, costing $6.98 a month, just
for the blower.
If the blower on low speed circulate keeps the temperature more even
and the furnace does not need to run as much because of that, the cost
for the single speed PSC motor would be higher - possibly approaching
$10 per month.

On the other hand, if, as some have theorized, circulating the air
looses heat to the outside and/or basement, NOT running the low speed
circulating fan would cause the furnace to run less - saving not only
the .6kWh, but also some furnace run time.

Anyone with a PSC blower motor on a conventional standing pilot light
furnace have an Amprobe and want to check the blower current draw for
a sanity check?

I'm just guessing 475 Va running current.

The low speed blower is set at 600 cfm with a .1" static (default)
and the heat blower speed is also at default, 0.20" static, with the
AC set to 900 cfm at 0.50" static, default for a 2 ton AC according to
the installers notes. The default for heat was set by the specified
heat rise across the heat exchanger

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:30:48 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/15/2010 5:17 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:09:38 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:06:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:27:48 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:14:02 -0500, Home wrote:

The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:

The finest equipment in the world is worthless if installed
improperly.

You totally missed the point.

What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those
national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC
company to install it?

How would that result in improper installation?

The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC
company for the furnace.

Asshole - you really think you get 'wholesale price' like
that ? Yeh, you probably think if a car dealership sells you a car at
'$ 100 below invoice', they lost money on the deal. after all, they
showed you on the invoice 'what they paid for it', right ?

Anyone who is actualy in the business laughs out loud at the
'Internet wholesale' prices for any parts or equipment. It's double
what they pay at the local supply house.
Sometimes that is true.

HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for
less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less -
but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible
warranty.

Then it's not really apples-to-apples.


Same situation with buyng a furnace on the internet.

Identical product, significant price reduction, bur lotsa gotchas.

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy. I've
looked into buying some items over the net but the shipping eats up
any savings in purchase price.

TDD
In my business the hard to get stuff (and stuff I could save a bundle
on) is generally small and light making the shipping pretty reasonable
unless it comes UPS from the USA - where the brokerage kills ya.

On Dec 15, 8:32*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:44:17 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
wrote:



I think HomeGuy wanted an example of an HVAC company denying warranty
coverage because eqpt was
bought from a non-authorized source? I think this should settle
that requestt:


http://www.rheem.com/Products/Heatin...er_protection/

"Question: Does Rheem approve any online resellers of HVAC equipment?
Answer: Rheem does not endorse, approve, or certify any online sale
of its products through auction websites, online retailers or any
other method of online sales direct to consumers without an in-person
site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC
professional).

Q: What happens if I purchase Rheem equipment from an online sales
company?
Answer: Rheem published warranties are not applicable for any
equipment manufactured by Rheem that has been sold direct to the
consumer via the internet or auction websites without an in-person
site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC
professional"

If that's not enough, here's what Trane's warranty says:
http://www.trane.com/Residential/Dow...20and%20AC.pdf

"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed direct
(ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled basis."

wrote:

I'll then call one of your installers and I'll offer him $750
cash under the table to install the furnace the next weekend
(or when-ever it's conveinent for him).

And if he says 'yes', he's firerd.

You mean fired. You seem to make spelling mistakes when you're
flustered.

I'll get his HVAC license number for the warranty

He doesn't have one, he works under MY license.

That's nice. Ok, we'll use your license.

and I'll even fill in your company on the warrany card if
there's a line for that, and I'll send in the warranty to
the manufacturer for future coverage.

And I'll sue your ass if I find out.

Don't worry - you'll never find out.

And I will, when I get the report from the manufacturer that
a warranty registration was filed in my name.

I guess that's the same report that tells you how close you are to your
incentive reward vacation - isin't it?

Right after I get your warranty forever voided.

Ha.

I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.

How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.

Not at all. I'll enjoy ****ing you over 12 different ways.

I really don't see how. You're more of a free-lance computer programmer
than a HVAC contractor/technician. How long has it been since you
installed or serviced an HVAC system under contract Paul? 15, 20 years?

Or do they still let you do free-lance installs / service at carolina
breeze?

wrote:

"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed
direct (ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled
basis."

Perhaps Rheem can explain why they sell their products to internet-based
retailers in the first place.

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 22:11:17 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

wrote:

"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed
direct (ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled
basis."

Perhaps Rheem can explain why they sell their products to internet-based
retailers in the first place.

I'll tell you I how I had a new furnace installed.
When I bought my house 13 year ago it had a couple window A/C units,
one not working, the other barely.
The first year I had a family event and everybody was sweating.
My brother was in the trades, small-time GC, never successful.
Too honest, but his biggest problems were a hot temper and
underbidding.
He told me to get a 220v/200 amp service and he'd fix me up with a
furnace/AC. The house had 60 amps.
The next spring I got the new electric service put in for $1100.
This guy was by far the cheapest of 3 estimates, and I liked him.

If you have a choice, always get young guys to do the work.
This guy was all over the roof and service lines and basement like a
monkey and never stopped moving.
Ran an extra conduit and box to the back of the basement gratis.
Here maybe 4 hours.
He wanted to get the next job to make more money for his girlfriends.
Maybe you remember those days from your own life.

Anyway, I called my brother and he sent his furnace guy out.
Bobby. That's all I ever knew. Bobby. Can't even remember his
helper's name. Bobby was a pro installer, moonlighting.
They were there one day, maybe part of the next.
Cost me $4500, in 1998.
No permits and no inspection. Unlawful.
Don't know if that was a good price because I never had any estimates.
I wasn't hard up for cash anyway.
My brother said the price was par and wasn't that happy about it.
Made Bobby put in a SS chimney liner.
My brother was there when Bobby finished up and Bobby said the chimney
didn't need a liner and brother said "Put in the ****ing liner."
And so it was.

They quit doing business together later, but I got along with Bobby
when I saw him.
Had him out that same winter when the furnace wouldn't light and he
put in a new igniter, and got it going. No charge.
Bobby told me he didn't know squat about troubleshooting furnaces,
just installing them.
He did a good job installing, and except for a motherboard problem the
heat and A/C have been fine.
I had to lever up the condenser pad and jam some crushed rock under a
corner when it sunk in soft ground, but no big deal.
I never sent in a warranty on the furnace or A/C, but the first time I
had it repaired - new motherboard - it was at least 8 years old,
probably out of warranty.
Just got the various paperwork that was stuck on the furnace.
Pretty useless.

If I ever get this furnace replaced I'll just get the usual suspects
out for estimates and take it from there.
I liked and trusted the guy who put in the new motherboard so I'd go
with him if he isn't more than maybe $500 higher than the others.
Price isn't everything. Sometimes it matters, sometimes not.

BTW, as far as I'm concerned if you can do your own furnace
installiion, go for it.
I put a new boiler in my ma's house with no problem a 36" pipe wrench
with a 6' persuader on it couldn't solve.
But I don't know sheet metal.
As I've said, you won't have any luck trying to modify a modern
furnace to make it work like a 40 year old furnace.
Non-starter.

--Vic

On Dec 17, 9:59*am, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:48 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
Home Guy wrote:

I intend to call Goodman's Consumer Affairs tommorrow
(1-877-254-4729) and ask them for exact clarification as to
whether or not they are aware of internet sales of their HVAC
products, if they have an explanation as to how those products
end up in the internet retail market, and how they know for
sure that a part returned to them or replaced by them belongs
to a furnace that *wasn't* purchased via internet retailer.

So I called Goodman and I asked how the warranty works when I buy a
furnace from an on-line retailer, and they said they don't honor the
warrany in those cases - I think it's because they don't want to deal
directly with the public - they'd rather deal with dealers when it comes
to parts replacement. *

* * * * Gee, I wonder why ? *Maybe, as has been said here so many
times for so many years, the quality and correctness of the
installation is the primary determinant of the lifespan and
performance of the equipment ? *Far above and beyond any
considerations of brand, features, etc ?

* * * * A correctly sized and installed ( pick any brand you think
sucks ) will far out-perform and out-last an incorrectly sized and
poorly installed ( pick any brand you think is great ), that's a fact.

They acknowledged that unless I tell them I bought it from an internet
retailer that they have no way of knowing,

* * * * Most brands do, probably including Goodman. *They know, by
serial number, what units were sold to what dealers or supply houses,
on what date, etc.

and that if I have warranty
repairs done by a local contractor that most likely the contractor will
have no problems dealing with Goodman as far as the parts go so it won't
be a big deal anyways. *Even if I installed the furnace myself and a
part went bad and I took the part into a local HVAC dealer, I could
probably still have the part covered by the warranty and get a
replacement from the dealer (assuming the part is still covered under
the warranty period).

* * * * Bull****. *No, you can not.

I asked why they sell their furnaces to electronic / internet retailers
in the first place, and they said they have no control over how those
furnaces are re-sold, and it might even be "illegal" to refuse to do
business with those retailers (restraint-of-trade laws).

* * * * Might be.

Bottom line is that I don't see how it can be legal for a manufacturer
to void a warranty on a product based on who sold you the product or how


Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will
have any success.
It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product
be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty
to be honored.

I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues
with a company
choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install
the eqpt
and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they
would not be saying you can't sell
it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be
responsible for the whole
sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the
company's
image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a
company like Harley.
Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade
because
they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally
deny someone the right
to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?

In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to
these online
outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to
increase
sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via
intermediaries, ie other
wholesalers who are looking to move more product.

Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be
surprised if it were
honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on
company, Rheem or
Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a
couple months
of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of
that process, they
damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could
fudge and get
by that, don't know.

The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a
reasonable price to
get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for
a 100K BTU furnace
and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation
above what I can
buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg,
eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip,
410A, chimney liner, and it still comes out that they are getting
$4000 to install it.
I figure it should take 2 guys 1 day. If they charged $100/hr, that's
$1600. If it takes
2 full days, that's still only $3200. Actually, in this economy I'm
shocked that it can
be this high.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:




So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the
state of
the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised
that these guys
aren't negotiating even more.

Did you check alpinehomeair.com?
I looked out of curiosity and when I plugged in my zip they gave me
about 8 local HVAC companies to contact - supposedly who would install
what I bought at the Alpine site.
You don't want to get raped on an install.
Let those with cash falling out of their ears get raped.
Your $4k price include new evap/compressor/condensor?
$8200 is bull**** for this.
BTW, you might want to reconsider that tax credit.
Seems it's got you rushing to a decision.
Going to 16 SEER on the 5-ton A/C to get $1500 costs you almost $2k
more.
You could probably do with less than 5-ton too.
There's some chance the $1500 credit will be reinstated.
Wouldn't count on it though unless the furnace/window/insulation mfgs
get Jack Abramoff working on the Congress.
I'm sure the Tea Party folks will be as easily bought off as those
they replaced.
I dropped the HVAC group. No sense talking to prima donnas who think
100 bucks an hour is well beneath them, like the last guy.
**** 'em. They want to act like lawyers, you don't want them.
You can get good HVAC installers for far less.
Ask around - you'll find a moonlighter.

--Vic

There's some Greeks near me. Not as extreme as the folks you mention.
I wonder if they will ever call me, again. They were highly offended
that I get a fee "just to drive a couple miles over here".

I was taking stuff to a second hand shop, years ago. His favorite one
was "we had the money in an envelope, yesterday. You didn't show up,
and so my wife spent it on something." Like it's my fault that I
wasn't here yesterday. After that, I didn't show up ever again. He
killed the goose that laid golden eggs. Quack, quack! (but not at the
second hand shop).

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

I had a guy offer me $250.00 after he had already taken up $300.00 of
my
time when he had agreed to a price of $500.00 to repair a system. He
is
one of those Middle Eastern terrorists who owns a restaurant. He can't
understand why I'm not available to do any work for him. Like you said
Steve, you quote a price and you will stick to it even if some little
thing shows up that you hadn't counted on. I had a guy with a lounge
play games with my money after I had replaced a compressor in a
refrigeration unit. He was always not available or it was always next
week or some other excuse. I caught him and one of his minions at the
back door one afternoon and told him I needed to check the unit in
order
to make sure it was operating properly. I took my tools in and
checked the unit while his minion looked on. I popped the cover off
the
compressor connections and with my lineman's pliers, broke off the
common pin at the hermetic seal. I told the pair that everything was
working perfectly and I'd catch up with him later. The next day, this
jerk who had ignored me for several months started calling. The first
call was "I got your money" and subsequent calls got more agitated and
threatening. I absolutely enjoyed listening to and ignoring the
messages
from the jerk who ignored me for so long and was now desperate to get
his wine cooler running again. I don't know what the turkey
ever did about his wine cooler. I even notified the supplier that the
warranty on the compressor was invalid due to abuse and they should
not replace it if someone brought it in. I believe the guy still hates
my guts and I wouldn't have it any other way. :-)

TDD

On Dec 17, 10:17*pm, Vic Smith
wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? * Seems rather odd given the
state of
the economy. *With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised
that these guys
aren't negotiating even more.

Did you check alpinehomeair.com?
I looked out of curiosity and when I plugged in my zip they gave me
about 8 local HVAC companies to contact - supposedly who would install
what I bought at the Alpine site.
You don't want to get raped *on an install.
Let those with cash falling out of their ears get raped.
Your $4k price include new evap/compressor/condensor?

Actually, looking at my numbers, it wa $4300. Yes, exact same
components, Rheem,
being quoted by contractors. I included evrything I could think of:
lines, whip, disconnect, pad,
media filter, 410A, thermostat, chimney liner for orphaned water
heater. Also threw in $100 for misc stuff. The LOWEST local quote I
got
is $4,000 above that, ie $8325.



$8200 is bull**** for this.

Seems high to me too, but I've been through 4 quotes now. Also, our
contractor
friend here Steve, from Mississippi, says that's what he would quote
for a similar
system. And that makes the NJ price look even better, because prices
generally
down there are less than they are here an hour from NYC.


BTW, you might want to reconsider that tax credit.
Seems it's got you rushing to a decision.
Going to 16 SEER on the 5-ton A/C to get $1500 costs you almost $2k
more.
You could probably do with less than 5-ton too.
There's some chance the $1500 credit will be reinstated.
Wouldn't count on it though unless the furnace/window/insulation mfgs
get Jack Abramoff working on the Congress.
I'm sure the Tea Party folks will be as easily bought off as those
they replaced.

I dropped the HVAC group. *No sense talking to prima donnas who think
100 bucks an hour is well beneath them, like the last guy.
**** 'em. *They want to act like lawyers, you don't want them.
You can get good HVAC installers for far less.
Ask around - you'll find a moonlighter.

--Vic

Sad part is, I'd prefer a real company. But, like you, I can do math,
and look into
what I'm getting and paying for. I don't buy the argument that an
HVAC installer/tech
is in a whole different class than an auto repair mechanic at an auto
dealership.
If anything, cars are MORE sophisticated. And they actually include
their own AC
system too, don;t they? Certainly the periodic training they have to
go through is as demanding
as that of HVAC guys.

I also don't put much into the fact that the HVAC guy has a truck and
comes to me
as far as justifying what amounts to labor rates of $150 to $200 an
hour. Yes, they
have a truck, but they also don't have the large dealership and repair
facility on highway frontage and
all the overhead, taxes, etc that go with it.