"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve wrote:

If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and
adjusted,

How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?

If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
it's place?


SNIP whiny drivel



You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
statements above are wrong.


Come on over and I'll put my money in your mouth and you will see exactly what kind of big man I am. In fact, you will CHOKE on my manhood.


SNIP more drivel

The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
disagree?


Come on over and feel them in your mouth.



I can install myself any furnace. That's not the point. I'm just
bitching about they choices that furnace makers are making when they
design / build them.

You can install my very large penis in your mouth and install a very large amount of jizz in your belly.

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:49:24 -0600, "
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:29:03 -0500, mm wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.


How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.

I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input
is mentioned to calculate the efficiency.

Am I right?

The ones I've looked at are rated as BTU input, primarily because they have a
fixed operating point (orifice sizes, pressures, etc.) and the efficiency
isn't well regulated.

Interesting. So do they have an AFUE rating?

The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
output calculated, though.

But the burner "efficiency isn't well regulated". So you mean an
instantaneous measurement of efficiency?

Or an average measurement? Isn't an average measurement made only by
looking at heat (BTU) output and dividing it into BTU input?

How can burner efficiency be measured without first measuring BTU
output? What is there about the burner that can be measured other
than BTU output?

It's not like a lever where the lengths of on both sides of the pivot
can be measured, or a gear where the number of teeth can be counted,
etc.** In cases like this, efficiency is not a real thing that can be
measured. Only input and output can be measured.

**Even in the case of levers and gears, measuring theoretical
efficiency by measuring arm length or counting teeth assumes there is
no loss due to friction or slipping. The real efficiency of a
mechancical device can only be determined by measuring input and
output and dividing one into the other.

The spec sheet I got for at least one oil furnace this year included
input and output and AFUE. If it was on the web and I can find it,
I'll post it.

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...

As someone who's been living with and has experienced HVAC systems with
single-speed AC fan motors, I really can't appreciate the need for a
variable-speed fan motor. All this discussion about how PSC motor
efficiency drops to 15% - 30% when used at low speeds is a real mystery
to me - are there really furnaces out there that have the necessary
electronic controllers that will use PSC motors in such a variable-speed
capacity? Why no real discussion about the efficiency of 2-speed AC
motors?

PSC blower motors are not really multispeed at all. All the extra speed taps
are are taps on what acts as an internal autotransformer. High is rated
voltage and the lower speeds just effectively undervolt the motor. Run a
typical 1050 RPM 6 pole PSC blower motor on high sometime and measure the
voltage from the low tap to neutral, it is usually around 170 volts AC
depending on the motor.

There are true 2 speed induction blower motors that are wound as both a 4
pole and a 6 pole. The high and start windings are 4 pole so the motor
always starts on high but if it is hooked up as low it switches the power
from high to low as it starts using the same centrifugal switch that cuts
off the start windings. When not running these motors will show a direct
short between the 2 speed wires.

I also don't understand how running a fan at low speed is better at
humidity removal when the HVAC system is in A/C mode - yet ECM makers
make that claim.

Less airflow allows the evaporator to run colder hence it cools the air more
and the leaving air has a lower dew point hence a lower humidity % when
warmed back up by the house/building..

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:24:06 -0500, mm wrote:

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:49:24 -0600, "
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:29:03 -0500, mm wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.


How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.

I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input
is mentioned to calculate the efficiency.

Am I right?

The ones I've looked at are rated as BTU input, primarily because they have a
fixed operating point (orifice sizes, pressures, etc.) and the efficiency
isn't well regulated.

Interesting. So do they have an AFUE rating?

Does what have an AFUE rating?

The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
output calculated, though.

But the burner "efficiency isn't well regulated". So you mean an
instantaneous measurement of efficiency?

Or an average measurement? Isn't an average measurement made only by
looking at heat (BTU) output and dividing it into BTU input?

Measure the heat going out the stack (stack temperature).

How can burner efficiency be measured without first measuring BTU
output? What is there about the burner that can be measured other
than BTU output?

Measure the waste heat. Eff == Eout/Ein and Eout = Ein-Ewaste

It's not like a lever where the lengths of on both sides of the pivot
can be measured, or a gear where the number of teeth can be counted,
etc.** In cases like this, efficiency is not a real thing that can be
measured. Only input and output can be measured.

No, the waste heat can be measured, too.

**Even in the case of levers and gears, measuring theoretical
efficiency by measuring arm length or counting teeth assumes there is
no loss due to friction or slipping. The real efficiency of a
mechancical device can only be determined by measuring input and
output and dividing one into the other.

The spec sheet I got for at least one oil furnace this year included
input and output and AFUE. If it was on the web and I can find it,
I'll post it.

If your service tech is any good he'll measure the efficiency. The point is
that the energy input is well determined by the amount of fuel used. This is
a pretty basic design point, so is specified. Everything else is measured
from there.

You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.

But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

Mark

On Dec 8, 12:14*pm, Mark wrote:
You need to read the entire study at:

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

*and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. *When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. *and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.

But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion *in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

Mark

Whats obvious is you are doing everything you can to put down Vsdc
motors and modern electronics for no good reason. Its future is here,
live with it.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:14:48 -0800 (PST), Mark
wrote:

You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.
The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
such a big deal.

But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.

and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
for electric, so it is still a net saving.

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
companies.
Mark

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:35:18 -0600, "Steve"
wrote:



Your going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you want to or not.
Get over it


Needs to be dragged into the twentieth first, before the twenty-first

Good point.

On Dec 8, 5:53*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:14:48 -0800 (PST), Mark
wrote:

You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. *When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. *and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.

The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
such a big deal.



But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.

I would bet 90%+ of the HVAC installed in the USA runs the blower only
when
the furnace is heating or the AC is cooling, not 24/7. In a typical
house with an
unfinished basement or crawl space, I would think running it
constantly would be
a significant waste of energy from two standpoints. One is that it
obviously uses
a lot more electricity. Second is that while circulating all that
air around you are
running it through the basement or crawlspace, attice, etc that is
unheated and
you are losing heat through the duct work on each pass.

With a properly designed system, I don't see the need for constant
circulation.









and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
for electric, so it is still a net saving.

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion *in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
companies.



From the research I've done, I've concluded that the ECM motors are a
mixed
bag. In a typical house like mine (note that means running it only
when heating/cooling),
you might save 20% on electricity. I would pay some extra $$ for
that. However compared
to a regular motor, you have the issue of potentially higher repair
cost, ie $700 bills instead of
$100 due to the increased cost of the motor as well as the electronics
to run it.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 05:42:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 8, 5:53Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:14:48 -0800 (PST), Mark
wrote:

You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. Â*When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. Â*and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.

The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
such a big deal.



But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.

I would bet 90%+ of the HVAC installed in the USA runs the blower only
when
the furnace is heating or the AC is cooling, not 24/7. In a typical
house with an
unfinished basement or crawl space, I would think running it
constantly would be
a significant waste of energy from two standpoints. One is that it
obviously uses
a lot more electricity. Second is that while circulating all that
air around you are
running it through the basement or crawlspace, attice, etc that is
unheated and
you are losing heat through the duct work on each pass.

With a properly designed system, I don't see the need for constant
circulation.



You don't see the need for it, but the VAST majority of new furnace
installations in ontario are set to run the blower on low, constantly.
All 3 contractors we contacted for quotes for my daughter's furnace
(multi-story condo) strongly recommended it.






and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
for electric, so it is still a net saving.

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion Â*in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
companies.



From the research I've done, I've concluded that the ECM motors are a
mixed
bag. In a typical house like mine (note that means running it only
when heating/cooling),
you might save 20% on electricity. I would pay some extra $$ for
that. However compared
to a regular motor, you have the issue of potentially higher repair
cost, ie $700 bills instead of
$100 due to the increased cost of the motor as well as the electronics
to run it.

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 14:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 05:42:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:



But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.

I would bet 90%+ of the HVAC installed in the USA runs the blower only
when
the furnace is heating or the AC is cooling, not 24/7. In a typical
house with an
unfinished basement or crawl space, I would think running it
constantly would be
a significant waste of energy from two standpoints. One is that it
obviously uses
a lot more electricity. Second is that while circulating all that
air around you are
running it through the basement or crawlspace, attice, etc that is
unheated and
you are losing heat through the duct work on each pass.

With a properly designed system, I don't see the need for constant
circulation.



You don't see the need for it, but the VAST majority of new furnace
installations in ontario are set to run the blower on low, constantly.
All 3 contractors we contacted for quotes for my daughter's furnace
(multi-story condo) strongly recommended it.


Strange that Canadians do that.
Maybe makes sense for that multi-story condo building.
Wouldn't make sense for my house.
Small 3-bedoom, no "zoned" heating.
Though you can "zone" by closing vents and doors to some extent.
In some situations a blower always running during heating cycle would
work that works - to distribute fireplace heat is one.
In my house the thermostat is located in the hallway adjacent to where
we spend most of our time - bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen.
The dining room and living room are cooler. Maybe a degree or 2.
And they are as big as the other rooms combined.
This suits us fine.

When we have company and are in the living room/dining room body heat
and sometimes cooking heat spilling from the kitchen keeps those rooms
comfortable.
When it's hot though I have to lower the thermostat to keep those
rooms cool.
I could reverse all that by moving the thermostat if I wanted to, but
it works how it is.

What would happen if my blower was constantly running during heating
and cooling times is this.
In winter heat would be lost through living/dining room walls and
windows, and when the A/C is running heat would be gained through the
same.
All of this come down to personal tolerance for uneven heat in
different rooms, and how much you want to pay.

There's absolutely no question that in my house a constantly running
blower would cost me both in electricity and natural gas.
Because it would move heat or cool air to places it's not needed.
I used to argue with my wife all the time about heating and cooling.
She can't take it cool in the winter, or warm in the summer.
I gave up the argument. You got to know when to fold 'em.
But I never even started an argument with the laws of thermo dynamics,
and don't intend to.

BTW, this reminds me how car A/C compressors kick in on defrost mode.
I used to pull the A/C plug when winter rolled around because I never
had a problem defrosting with just undried hot air and didn't wait to
waste a couple/few HP all winter just to blow dried air on the
windshield.
I stopped that when I heard the compressor seals could suffer from
disuse, but mostly because I lost my "need for speed."

--Vic

On Dec 9, 7:42*am, wrote:
On Dec 8, 5:53*pm, wrote:





On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:14:48 -0800 (PST), Mark
wrote:

You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. *When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. *and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.

The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
such a big deal.

But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.

I would bet 90%+ of the HVAC installed in the USA runs the blower only
when
the furnace is heating or the AC is cooling, not 24/7. * In a typical
house with an
unfinished basement or crawl space, I would think running it
constantly would be
a significant waste of energy from two standpoints. *One is that it
obviously uses
a lot more electricity. * Second is that while circulating all that
air around you are
running it through the basement or crawlspace, attice, etc that is
unheated and
you are losing heat through the duct work on each pass.

With a properly designed system, I don't see the need for constant
circulation.







and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
for electric, so it is still a net saving.

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion *in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
companies.

From the research I've done, I've concluded that the ECM motors are a
mixed
bag. * In a typical house like mine (note that means running it only
when heating/cooling),
you might save 20% on electricity. * I would pay some extra $$ for
that. *However compared
to a regular motor, you have the issue of potentially higher repair
cost, ie $700 bills instead of
$100 due to the increased cost of the motor as well as the electronics
to run it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On only the coldest or hottest days do I run the fan 24hr just to
balance things out. 24x7 will sure wear out a motor faster

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home Guy wrote:


And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.

I totally agee with that.
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.

--Vic

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
unnecessarily full-quoted:

The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

Which are glorified stepper motors.

ECM motors are *NOT* stepper motors. If you had a half a clue, you would
know this.

In my house, the only place these wimpy DC motors will ever be is in my
hard drive and DVD players.

Its too bad you have your mind made up and can't be confused with the facts.
If ignorance is bliss, you must be in a constant state of euphoria.

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

improperly and unnecessarily full-quoted:

With the DC blower it's only about 100 watts to run the blower
on low in my house

Look - I live in Ontario too. And I just got dumped on with 3 feet of
snow, and it's like 16 to 24 F around here lately.

London area? You poor guys - Waterloo Region dodged the bullet this
time!!!

I live in a drafty 1976-era house. I can tell you that there is no
reason to run the blower constantly in the winter. When I switch my
HVAC from summer to winter mode, the only time my blower fan comes on is
when the furnace is on. There is just no need for a constant breeze
inside your house in the winter.

Running the fan constantly in the winter, even at a low speed, is not
efficient from a heating point of view. By keeping a constant breeze,
you're helping interior heat loss by causing interior air to constantly
come into contact with your walls and windows, which are the coolest
parts of the interior and from which heat is transfered out of your
house. When the fan is off and there's no air circulation, a
temperature gradient will set up in the air near the surface of the
walls and that air will be cold but you won't get as much heat loss
through this gradient as you would if the air was constantly mixing.

You can say what you like. I heat my 1970's (1974?) 2 storey for $700
a year in Waterloo with natural gas.

In the summer (late may to maybe late september) yes my fan is on quite
a bit, and even if I had a low-speed option I would not use it - I would
still be using the normal hi-speed mode for circulation and comfort.

Only use the AC on the really nasty hot/humid days. This last summer
that was about 2 weeks

And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:06:13 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

unnecessarily full-quoted:

The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

Which are glorified stepper motors.

In my house, the only place these wimpy DC motors will ever be is in my
hard drive and DVD players.

They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!

On Dec 9, 9:45*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.

I totally agee with that. *
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.

--Vic

I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even
then, you have
the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates.
Pulling humid
air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside
wouldn't
seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few
days of the
year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just
isn't worth it comared
to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about
simplicity. At a
minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To
do it right
you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp,
inside humidity and
then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like
the complexity that
HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.

If you want to go that route, a whole house fan to pull air in from
outside is an option. But
it too has the above problems and being in the upstairs ceiling/attic
interface, you now
have something difficult to seal and insulate perfectly for the entire
winter. Meaning what
you gain in a few days that you use it could be more than lost.

On Dec 9, 8:17*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:08:24 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Dec 9, 7:42*am, wrote:
On Dec 8, 5:53*pm, wrote:

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:14:48 -0800 (PST), Mark
wrote:

You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf

yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...

and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. *When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. *and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.

The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
such a big deal.

But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.

MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.

I would bet 90%+ of the HVAC installed in the USA runs the blower only
when
the furnace is heating or the AC is cooling, not 24/7. * In a typical
house with an
unfinished basement or crawl space, I would think running it
constantly would be
a significant waste of energy from two standpoints. *One is that it
obviously uses
a lot more electricity. * Second is that while circulating all that
air around you are
running it through the basement or crawlspace, attice, etc that is
unheated and
you are losing heat through the duct work on each pass.

With a properly designed system, I don't see the need for constant
circulation.

and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..

That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
for electric, so it is still a net saving.

I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion *in favor of the ECM.

Follow the money...

In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
companies.

From the research I've done, I've concluded that the ECM motors are a
mixed
bag. * In a typical house like mine (note that means running it only
when heating/cooling),
you might save 20% on electricity. * I would pay some extra $$ for
that. *However compared
to a regular motor, you have the issue of potentially higher repair
cost, ie $700 bills instead of
$100 due to the increased cost of the motor as well as the electronics
to run it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On only the coldest or hottest days do I run the fan 24hr just to
balance things out. 24x7 will sure wear out a motor faster

* The only motor I've had fail was the single speed belt drive. I
replaced it with the 2 speed just under half way through the life of
the furnace. The original was a 1/3HP, the replacement was 1/2 and
1/6.
The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have 57 years of service experience with conventional blower motors
that
cycle on and off with the furnace/AC and have not had one fail yet.
So,
I'd say using them only during heat or AC vs running them 24/7 is a
non-
issue in terms of longevity.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:57:10 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 9:45Â*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.

I totally agee with that. Â*
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.

--Vic

I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even
then, you have
the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates.
Pulling humid
air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside
wouldn't
seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few
days of the
year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just
isn't worth it comared
to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about
simplicity. At a
minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To
do it right
you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp,
inside humidity and
then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like
the complexity that
HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.

If you want to go that route, a whole house fan to pull air in from
outside is an option. But
it too has the above problems and being in the upstairs ceiling/attic
interface, you now
have something difficult to seal and insulate perfectly for the entire
winter. Meaning what
you gain in a few days that you use it could be more than lost.

You don't need microcontrollers. Just go to the basement and pull a
lever or crank on a chain fall (-:
Where I live, and the house I live in, it makes sense to draw in
outside air at night about 10-30 days a year, depending.
My house is brick, with little or no insulation.
Haven't torn off any drywall on the exterior walls, but I know from
drilling the drywall is on furring, maybe 1", not 2x4's.
Never picked up any fluff when drilling.
Surprisingly, my gas bill isn't bad.
But it can absorb a lot of heat during the days of high sun and the
heat migrates in if the nights aren't sufficiently cool.
Better to have the night air working on both sides.
Adds up to 10-30 days a year, depending.
The same was true of my last brick house.
Besides, if it's not too humid, outside air is good.

--Vic

wrote:

The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!

Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.

Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. In the summer, when my fan is
running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.

So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.

Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
additional $200 a year in savings. And by the time I've made those
savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
wrote:

The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!

Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.

Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. In the summer, when my fan is
running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.

So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.

Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
additional $200 a year in savings. And by the time I've made those
savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.

So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces is only 6 -
7 years?? This may be true when installed by John Q Homeowner, or the lowest
bidder, however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
correctly sized ductwork, the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.

You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have electronics
controling it. Furnaces with PSC motors are still available, but only in the
cheapest, lowest efficiency, "builder grade" models.

Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got the cheapest
POS furnace you could find, you got what you paid for, and now your not
happy with it.

wrote:
On Dec 9, 9:45 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.
I totally agee with that.
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.

--Vic

I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even
then, you have
the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates.
Pulling humid
air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside
wouldn't
seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few
days of the
year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just
isn't worth it comared
to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about
simplicity. At a
minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To
do it right
you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp,
inside humidity and
then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like
the complexity that
HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.


Some systems for commercial buildings do use all outside air when
economical. They need, if I remember right, 10% outside air when
occupied in any case. Makes it more practical to go to 100%. Duct
control is with "damper motors".

They don't just use outside temperature. They likely use an "enthalpy"
controller, which combines temperature and humidity. If you don't take
in air with humidity that is too high you don't have to worry about
inside humidity, and control on temperature. One I remember had a
temperature "set point" control in the supply air duct, that was a
potentiometer output, which connected to the damper motor that
controlled the amount of outside air that came in.

--
bud--

On 12/10/2010 8:03 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:57:10 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 9:45 pm, Vic wrote:
On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home wrote:

And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.

I totally agee with that.
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.

--Vic

I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even
then, you have
the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates.
Pulling humid
air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside
wouldn't
seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few
days of the
year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just
isn't worth it comared
to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about
simplicity. At a
minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To
do it right
you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp,
inside humidity and
then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like
the complexity that
HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.

If you want to go that route, a whole house fan to pull air in from
outside is an option. But
it too has the above problems and being in the upstairs ceiling/attic
interface, you now
have something difficult to seal and insulate perfectly for the entire
winter. Meaning what
you gain in a few days that you use it could be more than lost.

You don't need microcontrollers. Just go to the basement and pull a
lever or crank on a chain fall (-:
Where I live, and the house I live in, it makes sense to draw in
outside air at night about 10-30 days a year, depending.
My house is brick, with little or no insulation.
Haven't torn off any drywall on the exterior walls, but I know from
drilling the drywall is on furring, maybe 1", not 2x4's.
Never picked up any fluff when drilling.
Surprisingly, my gas bill isn't bad.
But it can absorb a lot of heat during the days of high sun and the
heat migrates in if the nights aren't sufficiently cool.
Better to have the night air working on both sides.
Adds up to 10-30 days a year, depending.
The same was true of my last brick house.
Besides, if it's not too humid, outside air is good.

--Vic


I've rented old buildings in the past that had an interesting hollow
tile like building block construction for the walls. The material
looks like the red roof tiles and with no heat in the warehouse area,
the temperature never got into the low 30° range, nothing ever froze.
I don't know what the material is but it seems like the designers
knew what they were doing around the turn of the last century. :-)

TDD

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:03:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:57:10 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 9:45Â*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:03:33 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.

I totally agee with that. Â*
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.

--Vic

I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even
then, you have
the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates.
Pulling humid
air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside
wouldn't
seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few
days of the
year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just
isn't worth it comared
to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about
simplicity. At a
minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To
do it right
you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp,
inside humidity and
then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like
the complexity that
HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.

If you want to go that route, a whole house fan to pull air in from
outside is an option. But
it too has the above problems and being in the upstairs ceiling/attic
interface, you now
have something difficult to seal and insulate perfectly for the entire
winter. Meaning what
you gain in a few days that you use it could be more than lost.

You don't need microcontrollers. Just go to the basement and pull a
lever or crank on a chain fall (-:
Where I live, and the house I live in, it makes sense to draw in
outside air at night about 10-30 days a year, depending.
My house is brick, with little or no insulation.
Haven't torn off any drywall on the exterior walls, but I know from
drilling the drywall is on furring, maybe 1", not 2x4's.
Never picked up any fluff when drilling.
Surprisingly, my gas bill isn't bad.
But it can absorb a lot of heat during the days of high sun and the
heat migrates in if the nights aren't sufficiently cool.
Better to have the night air working on both sides.
Adds up to 10-30 days a year, depending.
The same was true of my last brick house.
Besides, if it's not too humid, outside air is good.

--Vic



Up here in Central Ontario when it is hot enough that you would want
to draw in the outside air, the humidity is way too high to make it an
acceptable alternative most days.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:50:48 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

wrote:

The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!

Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.

What kind of motor do you think is in virtually every electric or
hybrid vehicle, and the majority of electric cycles???
ECMs are a lot less trouble prone than brushed DC motors. ONE moving
part, no open commutation, no wear, no sparks, no brushes.

Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. In the summer, when my fan is
running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.

Still has enough of an advantage that I wouls choose the ECM over the
PCM even if I did not choose to run the fan on low constantly.

Hey, it's your choice.
I feel I made an informed choice, and I'm more than happy with the
choice I made. You want to run with 1930's technology, that's fine
with me. I won't twist your arm.
But I also will not agree that the old stuff is always better

So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.

Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
additional $200 a year in savings. And by the time I've made those
savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.

That's fine as long as your old furnace lasts. I wouldn't go out and
spend $2000 (or more) for a new furnace just to get an ECM fan. But I
sure wouldn't cheap out and buy a furnace with a PSC fan motor when
the time comes to change the furnace

On Dec 10, 8:50*am, Home Guy wrote:
wrote:
The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!

Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.

Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. *In the summer, when my fan is
running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.

So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.

Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
additional $200 a year in savings. *And by the time I've made those
savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.

You keep omitting the most important reason for getting one, comfort.
It will in low speed remove near 50% more moisture. You can at low
speed run it to dehumidify with out cooling much. Great on those 70f
days when its 75 inside and real humid. it can be run by Humidistat,
just what alot of areas near water need often. Or to even out heat or
Ac in a poorly ducted house. You dont like them so dont buy one.

Steve full-quoted:

So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces
is only 6 - 7 years??

What-ever they are, they're not going to last as long as the ones being
made 30 and 40 years ago - many of which are still functional even if
they've been replaced by new garbage.

however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
correctly sized ductwork

Don't give me that "correctly installed" crap.

A furnace is a box where you connect wires and ducting and turn the
friggin thing on. It's a glorified barbeque.

Any new furnace that can't be plugged into any existing house's ductwork
and work correctly is a piece of ****.

As bad as the existing ductwork is or can be, you shouldn't have to tear
it down and re-do it just to satisfy the hyper-sensitive requirements of
a new furnace or it's delicate, wimpy ECM blower motor.

the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.

Pathetic.

You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have
electronics controling it.

If you mean electronics *inside* it, it's that very fact that I'm
bitching about. Just because you can't buy one that doesn't have a
frakken motherboard in it doesn't mean you can't bitch and complain how
unnecessary it is to have it.

Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got
the cheapest POS furnace you could find,

My furnace is 36 years old and is original to the house when it was
built in 1976 which I bought 11 years ago. I have no idea where this
furnace ranked in the marketplace at the time, but obviously they made
quality stuff back then, before the industry went into the toilet in the
last 10 - 20 years.

and now your not happy with it.

I'm very happy with it, and if I ever have to replace it, I'm going to
modify any new furnace I get by swapping it's ECM motor for a PSC one,
and remove the electronic ignition and replace it with a standing pilot,
and rip all the electronic flame and other sensors out of it, along with
the frakkin motherboard.

followed incorrect usenet style by full-quoting:

Up here in Central Ontario when it is hot enough that you would
want to draw in the outside air, the humidity is way too high
to make it an acceptable alternative most days.

Down here in south-western ontario that is not usually the case.

ransley wrote:

You keep omitting the most important reason for getting one,
comfort. It will in low speed remove near 50% more moisture.

Gee, I wonder what that liquid is that runs out of a pipe coming from my
A frame above my furnace and into the floor drain beside my furnace. ?

Ever see a dehumidifier that doesn't get enough air-flow? See how much
frost accumulates on it? See how that frost doesn't melt and turn into
flowing water until you turn the unit off?

An evaporator coil that doesn't get cold enough to sweat when your
blower fan is running full speed means that you're AC unit is too small
capacity or has lost freon.

And you don't want it to get so cold that you start a frost build-up
either.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:29:43 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

followed incorrect usenet style by full-quoting:

Up here in Central Ontario when it is hot enough that you would
want to draw in the outside air, the humidity is way too high
to make it an acceptable alternative most days.

Down here in south-western ontario that is not usually the case.


"ON THE DAYS WHEN YOU REALLY NEED IT"

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:17:22 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

Steve full-quoted:

So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces
is only 6 - 7 years??

What-ever they are, they're not going to last as long as the ones being
made 30 and 40 years ago - many of which are still functional even if
they've been replaced by new garbage.

however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
correctly sized ductwork

Don't give me that "correctly installed" crap.

A furnace is a box where you connect wires and ducting and turn the
friggin thing on. It's a glorified barbeque.

Any new furnace that can't be plugged into any existing house's ductwork
and work correctly is a piece of ****.

As bad as the existing ductwork is or can be, you shouldn't have to tear
it down and re-do it just to satisfy the hyper-sensitive requirements of
a new furnace or it's delicate, wimpy ECM blower motor.

the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.

Pathetic.

You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have
electronics controling it.

If you mean electronics *inside* it, it's that very fact that I'm
bitching about. Just because you can't buy one that doesn't have a
frakken motherboard in it doesn't mean you can't bitch and complain how
unnecessary it is to have it.

Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got
the cheapest POS furnace you could find,

My furnace is 36 years old and is original to the house when it was
built in 1976 which I bought 11 years ago. I have no idea where this
furnace ranked in the marketplace at the time, but obviously they made
quality stuff back then, before the industry went into the toilet in the
last 10 - 20 years.

and now your not happy with it.

I'm very happy with it, and if I ever have to replace it, I'm going to
modify any new furnace I get by swapping it's ECM motor for a PSC one,
and remove the electronic ignition and replace it with a standing pilot,
and rip all the electronic flame and other sensors out of it, along with
the frakkin motherboard.
You better start following the furnace guys around and stockpile
useable "old school" furnaces - you'll have a hell of a time modifying
the new ones to take the old parts!!

On Dec 10, 10:23*am, "Steve" wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in ....
wrote:

The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor

They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!

Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.

Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. *In the summer, when my fan is
running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.

So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.

Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
additional $200 a year in savings. *And by the time I've made those
savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.

So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces is only 6 -
7 years?? This may be true when installed by John Q Homeowner, or the lowest
bidder, however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
correctly sized ductwork, the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.

You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have electronics
controling it. Furnaces with PSC motors are still available, but only in the
cheapest, lowest efficiency, "builder grade" models.


I don't know what you consider "cheapest, lowest efficiency", but I'm
looking at
quotes for a Rheem 120K BTU, 95% efficient furnace that meets the govt
high
efficiency standards for the tax credit. And it has a single speed
PSC motor.
Can also get the same furnace and AC system from Trane, for $800
more.

While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that in
many cases
the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't worth it. That's
from two standpoints.
First is that those models only save on the blower electricity. And
then independent
studies have shown that you get the 40% electricity savings if the
duct work is ideal.
If it's good, you get like 25%. If it's typical it's more like 15
-20%. And if it's poor
ducting, you get 10% to -10%. So, for maybe a 15-20% savings, you
have a significantly
higher initial outlay, plus exposure to higher repair costs if the
blower motor or it's added
drive electronics fails.

I can see going with the variable ECM motor if you want to run the
blower 24/7. Or if you
highly value that it starts up quietly, can run at low speed longer to
even out heat better with
a two stage furnace on mild heating days. Or can run on slow speed
with AC to dehumidify better.
But none of those are that important to me.






Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got the cheapest
POS furnace you could find, you got what you paid for, and now your not
happy with it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote:

While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that
in many cases the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't
worth it.

I'm guessing that it's increasingly high targets for energy efficiency
(combustion and electrical) set by gov't regulations is the reason why
we're seeing the use of ECM blower motors in consumer HVAC equipment,
just as we see the same when it comes to saftey equipment (air bags, ABS
brakes, CAFE and emissions standards) in cars. Probably the same reason
for electronic ignition vs standing pilot as well.

I can't believe that we'd see widespread use of ECM motors under true
free-market-driven conditions (ie - with no gov't efficiency mandates or
constraints).

On 12/11/2010 12:53 PM, Steve wrote:
"Home wrote in message ...
wrote:

While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that
in many cases the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't
worth it.

I'm guessing that it's increasingly high targets for energy efficiency
(combustion and electrical) set by gov't regulations is the reason why
we're seeing the use of ECM blower motors in consumer HVAC equipment,
just as we see the same when it comes to saftey equipment (air bags, ABS
brakes, CAFE and emissions standards) in cars. Probably the same reason
for electronic ignition vs standing pilot as well.

I can't believe that we'd see widespread use of ECM motors under true
free-market-driven conditions (ie - with no gov't efficiency mandates or
constraints).

A lot of us don't live where they have 9 months of winter sports, and
humidity control is a huge issue. Where I am, we run A/C from March 1st
until November 1st with average summer temps of 90F with 75% to 85% RH
you can *DO* what you want, you can be as ignorant as you want....thats your
problem.

I do this for a living, and I *KNOW* first hand what the benefits of the new
systems are, and how much my customers utility bills have dropped, as well
as their comfort level increasing.

You can *TRY* to re-engineer a new furnace by taking out the electronics,
ECM motor, and electronic ignition... Just remember that as soon as you
screw with it, you have voided the warranty, as well as the UL ratings and
if you burn your house down, your insurance company will deny the claim.

Maybe you should get a job in the engineering department with the equipment
manufacturers.



Steve, you can verify something for me because you do more of this work
than I do. I've noticed a dramatic drop in price for the ECM motors over
a period of time and I assume it's because millions of the things are
being produced now, economies of scale. I'm seeing an ECM replacement
for PSC motors offered like the Genteq EverGreen and I'm wondering if
you've converted any air handlers for customers or have considered it?

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm seeing an ECM replacement for PSC motors offered like the Genteq
EverGreen

I think that's still made by GE

and I'm wondering if you've converted any air handlers for
customers or have considered it?

At least tell us what the over-the-counter (cash and carry) price is for
an ECM drop-in replacment 1/4 hp NEMA-48 1700 rpm PSC motor.

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 12/11/2010 12:53 PM, Steve wrote:
"Home wrote in message
...
wrote:

While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that
in many cases the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't
worth it.

I'm guessing that it's increasingly high targets for energy efficiency
(combustion and electrical) set by gov't regulations is the reason why
we're seeing the use of ECM blower motors in consumer HVAC equipment,
just as we see the same when it comes to saftey equipment (air bags, ABS
brakes, CAFE and emissions standards) in cars. Probably the same reason
for electronic ignition vs standing pilot as well.

I can't believe that we'd see widespread use of ECM motors under true
free-market-driven conditions (ie - with no gov't efficiency mandates or
constraints).

A lot of us don't live where they have 9 months of winter sports, and
humidity control is a huge issue. Where I am, we run A/C from March 1st
until November 1st with average summer temps of 90F with 75% to 85% RH
you can *DO* what you want, you can be as ignorant as you want....thats
your
problem.

I do this for a living, and I *KNOW* first hand what the benefits of the
new
systems are, and how much my customers utility bills have dropped, as
well
as their comfort level increasing.

You can *TRY* to re-engineer a new furnace by taking out the electronics,
ECM motor, and electronic ignition... Just remember that as soon as you
screw with it, you have voided the warranty, as well as the UL ratings
and
if you burn your house down, your insurance company will deny the claim.

Maybe you should get a job in the engineering department with the
equipment
manufacturers.



Steve, you can verify something for me because you do more of this work
than I do. I've noticed a dramatic drop in price for the ECM motors over
a period of time and I assume it's because millions of the things are
being produced now, economies of scale. I'm seeing an ECM replacement for
PSC motors offered like the Genteq EverGreen and I'm wondering if you've
converted any air handlers for customers or have considered it?

TDD

The equipment I install, already has ECM motors in it. the stuff with ECM
motors in it has a 10 year parts warranty, and the heat pumps have either a
5 year or 10 year unit replacement warranty.

I don't know why I would install an air handler with a PSC motor in it when
there is only a small difference in price for the ECM, and the PSC only has
a 5 year parts warranty, period.

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm seeing an ECM replacement for PSC motors offered like the Genteq
EverGreen

I think that's still made by GE

and I'm wondering if you've converted any air handlers for
customers or have considered it?

At least tell us what the over-the-counter (cash and carry) price is for
an ECM drop-in replacment 1/4 hp NEMA-48 1700 rpm PSC motor.

They are not interchangeable.

On Dec 11, 1:53*pm, "Steve" wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in ....
wrote:

While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that
in many cases the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't
worth it.

I'm guessing that it's increasingly high targets for energy efficiency
(combustion and electrical) set by gov't regulations is the reason why
we're seeing the use of ECM blower motors in consumer HVAC equipment,
just as we see the same when it comes to saftey equipment (air bags, ABS
brakes, CAFE and emissions standards) in cars. *Probably the same reason
for electronic ignition vs standing pilot as well.

I can't believe that we'd see widespread use of ECM motors under true
free-market-driven conditions (ie - with no gov't efficiency mandates or
constraints).

A lot of us don't live where they have 9 months of winter sports, and
humidity control is a huge issue. Where I am, we run A/C from March 1st
until November 1st with average summer temps of 90F with 75% to 85% RH
you can *DO* what you want, you can be as ignorant as you want....thats your
problem.

I'd say it's ignorant to assume everyone that's looking at a new HVAC
system
lives in the same climate that you do. I'm in coastal NJ and the
existing 26 year
old system handles the humidity just fine. If it's hot enough to be
running frequently,
no humidity problem. If it;s one of those few days where it's not hot
enough to be
running and it's getting humid inside, I lower the thermostat one
degree and in 30-45
minutes, you can feel the humidity has decreased and it's
comfortable. And that's
with an inefficient system with a single speed blower.



I do this for a living, and I *KNOW* first hand what the benefits of the new
systems are, and how much my customers utility bills have dropped, as well
as their comfort level increasing.

My utility bills are gonna drop too when I swap out that 26 year old
system and
go to a high efficiency system with a PSC blower.



You can *TRY* to re-engineer a new furnace by taking out the electronics,
ECM motor, and electronic ignition... Just remember that as soon as you
screw with it, you have voided the warranty, as well as the UL ratings and
if you burn your house down, your insurance company will deny the claim.

Maybe you should get a job in the engineering department with the equipment
manufacturers.- Hide quoted text -


That part I agree with. But there is no need to take out an ECM
motor. You just
buy a high efficiency system that doesn't have one in it.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

From looking at the information, I understand that the 1/2hp ECM
motor is the replacement for 1/3 through 1/2hp PSC motors and the
1hp ECM is the replacement for the 3/4 through 1hp motors.

Would you even use a 1/2 hp ECM motor for a home furnace? You certainly
wouldn't save any money if you were replacing a 1/4 hp single-speed PSC
motor with these 1/2 hp ECM units.

The ECM motors are adaptable according to the literature and
have the programming to learn how to operate

How exactly do they do that?

How does a motor know how much CFM the fan is moving?

Are there pressure or flow sensors mounted in the duct work for that?

How would you use one of those replacement motors when you have an
ordinary single-speed PSC motor in a 25+ year old furnace?

Can you apply 115 vac directly to those motors to the appropriate set of
wires to make them operate - to hell with this learning crap?

I don't get this learning crap anyways. What is an ECM motor supposed
to learn? Don't you just want it to turn at a given RPM? Why all the
fuss about finessing the CFM?

If the controller can make the unit start at low RPM and then speed up,
that's great. Do it. Why worry about CFM? If the house isin't
reaching the thermostat set-point fast enough, then speed up the motor,
or turn up the burners.

To me, the feedback the motor controller should get is the difference
between actual house temperature and the thermostat set-point
temperature. The smaller that difference, the slower the motor needs to
turn and the less BTU's the furnace needs to put out. What the actual
CFM is is neither here nor there. If the occupants want to over-ride
the motor RPM to get ambient circulation, then fine, given them the
option for low and medium speed constant circulation mode based on motor
RPM - not on some sort of "learning" crap.

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve full-quoted:

So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces
is only 6 - 7 years??

What-ever they are, they're not going to last as long as the ones being
made 30 and 40 years ago - many of which are still functional even if
they've been replaced by new garbage.

however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
correctly sized ductwork

Don't give me that "correctly installed" crap.

A furnace is a box where you connect wires and ducting and turn the
friggin thing on. It's a glorified barbeque.

Any new furnace that can't be plugged into any existing house's ductwork
and work correctly is a piece of ****.

As bad as the existing ductwork is or can be, you shouldn't have to tear
it down and re-do it just to satisfy the hyper-sensitive requirements of
a new furnace or it's delicate, wimpy ECM blower motor.



This has got to be a spammer. No one is that stupid.

What a fricken dumbass!







the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.

Pathetic.

You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have
electronics controling it.

If you mean electronics *inside* it, it's that very fact that I'm
bitching about. Just because you can't buy one that doesn't have a
frakken motherboard in it doesn't mean you can't bitch and complain how
unnecessary it is to have it.

Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got
the cheapest POS furnace you could find,

My furnace is 36 years old and is original to the house when it was
built in 1976 which I bought 11 years ago. I have no idea where this
furnace ranked in the marketplace at the time, but obviously they made
quality stuff back then, before the industry went into the toilet in the
last 10 - 20 years.

and now your not happy with it.

I'm very happy with it, and if I ever have to replace it, I'm going to
modify any new furnace I get by swapping it's ECM motor for a PSC one,
and remove the electronic ignition and replace it with a standing pilot,
and rip all the electronic flame and other sensors out of it, along with
the frakkin motherboard.