I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

On 12/3/2010 2:46 PM, wrote:


Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

We replaced our very old Columbia gas fired, forced hot-air furnace and
our old Ruud A/C unit 4-7 years ago - both with Carrier units. I won't
bother you with the model name/number because just as with cars, the
model names and numbers change almost yearly. We have not required a
single service call for either since installation and have been totally
pleased.

We chose a furnace model that is 92% efficient and saw our natural gas
consumption drop about 1/3 with no additional insulation added to the
house and no change in our thermostat settings. The HVAC guy estimated
that our old furnace was probably only about 60% efficient. The
difference in price at that time between 92% and 96% efficient was huge
(about 25% more) and we figured that we were unlikely to remain in our
house long enough to make back in gas expenses what we would pay for the
additional 4% in furnace efficiency if we popped for the 96% unit.

We had been having a problem with chronic refrigerant leaks in the old
A/C unit despite spending oodles to try to find the leak (never did).
The system needed at least a top-off and sometimes more than that every
season. Therefore, when we replaced the A/C, we not only replaced the
coil in the furnace and the compressor outside, but we replaced all the
pipes connecting them. We're glad that we did. No more leaks and our
A/C electric usage dropped by about 50% during the hottest summer
months. (We're in the D.C. metro area.)

The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
qualified and honest HVAC contractor. For each job, we got 3 different
bids from contractors that were highly recommended in the D.C. area
edition of Checkbook magazine. For both jobs we ended up going with the
same contractor. Both times his bid was in the middle - about 10%
higher than the lowest bid and about 30% cheaper than the most expensive
one. We'd use him again in a heartbeat. Good luck in your area!

Peter wrote:

The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
qualified and honest HVAC contractor.

Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace?

If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a
hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly
can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
unit).

If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace
and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to
blow air through the AC coils in the winter.

If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
**** out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install
the thing myself.

I am simply awestruck. There are very few REAL MEN in this world of
drive up food, and everyone talking on cell phones, and planning to
"do lunch" on the PDA. You have my respect (not really).

Of course, after you put your new copper AC tubing in with compression
fittings and duct tape, it should run just fine. Service valves to
open? What's that? We don't need no steenkin service valves. Cut em
out with a Sawzall! Freon recovery? Real Men (TM) don't do that kind
of wimpy stuff.

I am humbled by your greatness.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Home Guy"
wrote in message ...

Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace?

If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a
hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most
certainly
can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
unit).

If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my
furnace
and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have
to
blow air through the AC coils in the winter.

If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
**** out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd
install
the thing myself.

Anyone have any recommendations...


Bryant - 96.6% AFUE...
(Consumer Digest Best Buy)
http://www.bryant.com/products/furna...lution96.shtml

There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.

Features. I'd ask for a whole house humidifier. My old boss installed
Aprilaire. Pipe the water from the hot side of the water heater, about
six or ten inches from the top of the WH. Put the outdoor AC unit on
the shade side of the house. Make sure the access doors face open
space, so the future techs can get at the parts. The optional BIG air
filter like a Spacegard is a good idea. They will probably replace the
thermostat, and might run new stat wires. A furnace and AC install
takes at least a full day for two guys working together. Might run
into two days. You may need electric space heater for while the guys
are working.

Having been a HVAC installer..... Please be sure to tell the guys to
use the bathroom as needed. And put out some VERY light food for them.
Cheese and crackers and soda pop or coffee. They will really totally
appreciate being fed. Smile a lot. Ask an occasional question. Be
generous with your praise (try not to sound like a total suck up; it's
a balancing act.) Lay down some old carpet between the door and the
furnace, so they can wear boots in and out, and not worry about your
clean floor. broken down cardboard boxes are OK, also. Or carpet
runners.

It's a good idea to have one or two adults home, just as a courtesy.
To answer questions, and such. They will appreciate that you are not
going to leave the house open and then accuse them of stealing the
family jewels. It's a balancing act to be there, but not be in the
way. Park your car on the street, and tell them they are expected to
park in the driveway. They will want to get the truck as close to your
cellar door as they can.

You can expect to see a pile of old equipment, and they should haul it
away as the job completes. As they rework the gas pipe, you may smell
the natural gas smell. It's OK to remind them "I smell natural gas..."
and they will reassure you that they are working on the pipes. The new
furnace has some protectant on the heat exchanger. When they light the
furnace, it will stink for an hour or so, as the heat exchanger burns
off the protectant. You may need to open the windows. This is a one
time event -- and should only stink for a short while.

AC systems behave totally diffferently in the cold weather. They
SHOULD come back when the weather warms up, and recheck the AC. Being
cold out, it's not possible to totally be sure the AC is working
correctly. The courtesy check in the spring should be included in the
install price. Please do not run the AC until after the courtesy
check. They may leave the disconnect "OFF" outdoors. Leave it off,
please.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.


How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.

Just curious.

Jeff

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.


How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.

I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input
is mentioned to calculate the efficiency.

Am I right?

Just curious.

Jeff

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:29:03 -0500, mm wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.


How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.

I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input
is mentioned to calculate the efficiency.

Am I right?

The ones I've looked at are rated as BTU input, primarily because they have a
fixed operating point (orifice sizes, pressures, etc.) and the efficiency
isn't well regulated. The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
output calculated, though.

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:49:24 -0600, "
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:29:03 -0500, mm wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:15:21 -0500, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 12/4/2010 9:01 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
operating principles are used in all brands.

My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.

Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.

Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.

Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.


How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.

I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input
is mentioned to calculate the efficiency.

Am I right?

The ones I've looked at are rated as BTU input, primarily because they have a
fixed operating point (orifice sizes, pressures, etc.) and the efficiency
isn't well regulated.

Interesting. So do they have an AFUE rating?

The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
output calculated, though.

But the burner "efficiency isn't well regulated". So you mean an
instantaneous measurement of efficiency?

Or an average measurement? Isn't an average measurement made only by
looking at heat (BTU) output and dividing it into BTU input?

How can burner efficiency be measured without first measuring BTU
output? What is there about the burner that can be measured other
than BTU output?

It's not like a lever where the lengths of on both sides of the pivot
can be measured, or a gear where the number of teeth can be counted,
etc.** In cases like this, efficiency is not a real thing that can be
measured. Only input and output can be measured.

**Even in the case of levers and gears, measuring theoretical
efficiency by measuring arm length or counting teeth assumes there is
no loss due to friction or slipping. The real efficiency of a
mechancical device can only be determined by measuring input and
output and dividing one into the other.

The spec sheet I got for at least one oil furnace this year included
input and output and AFUE. If it was on the web and I can find it,
I'll post it.

On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:
I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right. If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder. You could Diy it , save money, have
no warranty and maybe be covered on savings. I think vsdc motor is
600, but im guessing on all numbers.

On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote:
On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:





I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right.

I checked there already. They said the problem reports were about the
same
for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other.
They gave
some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers.
But I'm
not sure what that even means. Does it mean that the price for a
similar
furnace from each company? Or does it mean that it's the average
price of
the systems each company sells? If it's the latter, it's useless,
because
company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average
price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I
want.


Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. I finally
got a subscription.



If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder.

I was thinking about that. With the current furnace, with an outside
temp of'
about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour.
Current
26 year old furnace is 150K input. So, I'm thinking with 93% or so
efficiency
new one, 100K should be about the same. It's not close to running
constantly
on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. But
any smaller and it cuts
back the ability to set it back at night. Right now it's set to go
to 60 at 11PM,
back to 67 at 5:30AM

I also take maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and
from the above,
you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable
temperature.
I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the
internet
to set it back up when I'm on the way back.

Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means
less ability
to set it back, even on a daily basis?

As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have
in the systems
that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. I'm
thinking I'll probably wind
up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in
the credit.

On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote:
On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote:





On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:

I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right.

I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the
same
for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other.
They gave
some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers.
But I'm
not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a
similar
furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average
price of
the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless,
because
company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average
price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I
want.

*Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally
got a subscription.





If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder.

I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside
temp of'
about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour.
Current
26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so
efficiency
new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running
constantly
on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But
any smaller and it cuts
back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go
to 60 at 11PM,
back to 67 at 5:30AM

I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and
from the above,
you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable
temperature.
*I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the
internet
*to set it back up when I'm on the way back.

Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means
less ability
to set it back, even on a daily basis?

As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have
in the systems
that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm
thinking I'll probably wind
up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in
the credit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less
reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman.

Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is
94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%. I wonder does it even run in
6 hrs at night on 6f cutback? a load calculation is really needed to
know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller. The only real
need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have
uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50%
gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help
more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if
alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC.
With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its
alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you
didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing
and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.

On Dec 5, 1:50*pm, ransley wrote:
On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote:





On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote:

On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:

I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right.

I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the
same
for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other.
They gave
some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers.
But I'm
not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a
similar
furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average
price of
the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless,
because
company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average
price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I
want.

*Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally
got a subscription.

If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder.

I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside
temp of'
about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour.
Current
26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so
efficiency
new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running
constantly
on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But
any smaller and it cuts
back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go
to 60 at 11PM,
back to 67 at 5:30AM

I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and
from the above,
you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable
temperature.
*I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the
internet
*to set it back up when I'm on the way back.

Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means
less ability
to set it back, even on a daily basis?

As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have
in the systems
that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm
thinking I'll probably wind
up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in
the credit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less
reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman.

Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is
94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%.

I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%%
efficient. Don't
you think 82% is way high? I'd expect that from a more modern
furnace, eg
the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient
beast. If it's 65%,
then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close.


I wonder does it even run in
6 hrs at night on 6f cutback?

I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if
it's cold weather, probably
from the low 20s on down.



a load calculation is really needed to
know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller.

The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's
going to do one. But it
would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current
one is just as useful,
maybe more so. At least for the heating part.




The only real
need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have
uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50%
gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help
more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if
alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC.
With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its
alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you
didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing
and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text -


That's about where I'm headed. The only issue I have now is that it
would be
good to have more cooling upstairs. Main issue there is the limited
duct work
originally installed. One thing I want to look into is more blower
capacity to
help with that. But I think the best solution would be a second AC
system for
upstairs. I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant
doing that.

So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's
sufficient in rating
to meet the tax credit.

On Dec 5, 1:35*pm, wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:50*pm, ransley wrote:





On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote:

On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote:

On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:

I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right.

I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the
same
for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other.
They gave
some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers.
But I'm
not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a
similar
furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average
price of
the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless,
because
company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average
price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I
want.

*Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally
got a subscription.

If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder.

I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside
temp of'
about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour.
Current
26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so
efficiency
new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running
constantly
on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But
any smaller and it cuts
back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go
to 60 at 11PM,
back to 67 at 5:30AM

I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and
from the above,
you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable
temperature.
*I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the
internet
*to set it back up when I'm on the way back.

Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means
less ability
to set it back, even on a daily basis?

As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have
in the systems
that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm
thinking I'll probably wind
up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in
the credit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less
reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman.

Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is
94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%.

I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%%
efficient. *Don't
you think 82% is way high? * I'd expect that from a more modern
furnace, eg
the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient
beast. *If it's 65%,
then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close.

I wonder does it even run in
6 hrs at night on 6f cutback?

I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if
it's cold weather, probably
from the low 20s on down.

a load calculation is really needed to
know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller.

The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's
going to do one. * But it
would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current
one is just as useful,
maybe more so. *At least for the heating part.

The only real
need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have
uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50%
gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help
more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if
alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC.
With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its
alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you
didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing
and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text -

That's about where I'm headed. *The only issue I have now is that it
would be
good to have more cooling upstairs. *Main issue there is the limited
duct work
originally installed. *One thing I want to look into is more blower
capacity to
help with that. * But I think the best solution would be a second AC
system for
upstairs. *I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant
doing that.

So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's
sufficient in rating
to meet the tax credit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know boilers have been 82% steady state running for over 110 years,
My 1954 Kewanee steam 1.200,000 Btu is 82% running and a 110 yr old
style or older, for boilers the reduced water supply is the main
advantage today, for steam they are now still only 82% rated. Better
controls, flue damper, electronic ignition and holding less water are
steam boilers only improvements. For furnaces with the tank style
exchanger I think those are less but if its clean, not way oversized,
not short cycling, if the burners are burning right 82% is my guess.
1984 isnt that long ago, we went through a energy mess in the mid 70s
and I was converting to flourescents as utility prices were going
up.Google a bit and see if you can find out what things really were 26
years ago. Your payback might be alot less than you think with a new
unit.

On Dec 5, 1:35*pm, wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:50*pm, ransley wrote:





On Dec 5, 11:08*am, wrote:

On Dec 5, 10:40*am, ransley wrote:

On Dec 3, 1:46*pm, wrote:

I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. *Not much time left, I know. * To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. * *My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.

Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? *Any particular features? * I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. *Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? * *Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? * But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. * The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. *Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.

I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....

I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right.

I checked there already. *They said the problem reports were about the
same
for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other.
They gave
some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers.
But I'm
not sure what that even means. * Does it mean that the price for a
similar
furnace from each company? * Or does it mean that it's the average
price of
the systems each company sells? * If it's the latter, it's useless,
because
company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average
price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I
want.

*Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. *I finally
got a subscription.

If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder.

I was thinking about that. *With the current furnace, with an outside
temp of'
about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour.
Current
26 year old furnace is 150K input. *So, I'm thinking with 93% or so
efficiency
new one, 100K should be about the same. * It's not close to running
constantly
on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. *But
any smaller and it cuts
back the ability to set it back at night. * Right now it's set to go
to 60 at 11PM,
back to 67 at 5:30AM

I also take *maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and
from the above,
you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable
temperature.
*I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the
internet
*to set it back up when I'm on the way back.

Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means
less ability
to set it back, even on a daily basis?

As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have
in the systems
that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. *I'm
thinking I'll probably wind
up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in
the credit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less
reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman.

Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is
94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%.

I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%%
efficient. *Don't
you think 82% is way high? * I'd expect that from a more modern
furnace, eg
the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient
beast. *If it's 65%,
then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close.

I wonder does it even run in
6 hrs at night on 6f cutback?

I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if
it's cold weather, probably
from the low 20s on down.

a load calculation is really needed to
know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller.

The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's
going to do one. * But it
would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current
one is just as useful,
maybe more so. *At least for the heating part.

The only real
need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have
uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50%
gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help
more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if
alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC.
With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its
alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you
didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing
and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text -

That's about where I'm headed. *The only issue I have now is that it
would be
good to have more cooling upstairs. *Main issue there is the limited
duct work
originally installed. *One thing I want to look into is more blower
capacity to
help with that. * But I think the best solution would be a second AC
system for
upstairs. *I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant
doing that.

So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's
sufficient in rating
to meet the tax credit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just looked a bit, there were condensing furnaces 26 years ago. Can
you find a Btu input-output rating, use that and take off maybe 5%,
you might be near 60, or 80.

ransley wrote:

I didnt know furnaces ran windows.

Don't joke. Next year they'll be running linux or android.

Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago
the top results were suprising

So post them here.

If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger
not treated steel.

Yes. Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. Take a
magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they
have on display.

Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall.
The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard
but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now

Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of ****.
Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if
you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about
$100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract
the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other
blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are
dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter
(and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted
energy.

Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8
times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs
higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can
interfere with tv and radio reception.

Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.

So where are we?

1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%)
furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or
take) - which is good. I do like that improvement.

2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
years ago is bad. Using stainless is good.

3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point
of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use
electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.

4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC
squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify
extra cost and reduced longevity.

As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional
pilot. Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. Give me the
choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve
and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. Give me all stainless
for the exchangers. If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say
that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of ****.

Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around
the AC coils instead of going through them. You want efficiency? It's
not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it
during the winter.

It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and
gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside,
force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the
outside. When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is
cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw
outside air into the house directly?

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
ransley wrote:

I didnt know furnaces ran windows.

Don't joke. Next year they'll be running linux or android.

The new high end systems are serial control with variable frequency inverter
drives that will vary their output from 40% - 115% of their rated capacity.

Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago
the top results were suprising

So post them here.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...-205/overview/

If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger
not treated steel.

Look for tubular primary heat exchanger, not "clam shell".

Yes. Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. Take a
magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they
have on display.

If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and adjusted,
aluminized steel or stainless.... either will give you a good service life.

Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall.
The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard
but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now

90% of those failures were due to incorrectly designed and sized ductwork
that caused extreme static pressures.

Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of ****.
Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if
you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about
$100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract
the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other
blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are
dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter
(and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted
energy.

you need to do some more homework here.

Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8
times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs
higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can
interfere with tv and radio reception.

ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan, use half the energy to run and
are a whole lot quieter than PSC motors. Only the cheapest manufactures with
the cheapest models of furnaces have issues with RFI. yes you will get what
you pay for.

Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.

The average system that I install uses 30% - 40% less energy to run.

So where are we?

Talking about how you need to go back to school, and get up to speed with
the new systems.

1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%)
furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or
take) - which is good. I do like that improvement.

90+ furnaces VS 80+ furnaces will largely depend on location, climate, and
degree days. Here in south Mississippi, the additional cost of a 90+ furnace
is not justified, where in the northern states where they have 9 months of
winter sports is a different story.

2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
years ago is bad. Using stainless is good.

Stainless is good, but also much more expensive. Will the additional cost be
worth it in your location?
Keep in mind that heating and cooling systems are not built to last forever.

3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point
of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use
electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.

Please explain how this is so?? or do you advocate removing half of the
safety devices on the furnace in favor of a standing pilot?? I don't know of
*ANY* legitmate HVAC tech that would purposly want to remove safeties from
any gas appliance.

4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC
squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify
extra cost and reduced longevity.

Please explain how you come up with this.

BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer 2 weeks
ago, he has the ability to monitor his *ACTUAL* energy usage. The new system
uses 1500 watts less energy to run it than the old system did.
Last January I installed a new 4 ton 14SEER dual fuel/hybrid system in my
own home and it reduced my energy usage by 42% over this last year. BOTH
systems have ECM blower motors, as well as ECM condenser fan motors.

As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional
pilot. Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. Give me the
choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve
and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. Give me all stainless
for the exchangers. If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say
that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of ****.

So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled.....
Technology is a good thing when the contractor/installer/tech has the
training, education, and experience. to me it sounds like your not happy
because its no longer a DIY proposition, and you can't make it work
correctly. in case you haven't noticed, *EVERYTHING* has electronics in it
these days. The electronics make things safer, and more energy efficient.
FWIW, a good quality digital control can reduce your energy bills 10% - 15%
by itself, as well as increase your comfort levels by not having the 5 - 7
degree temperature swings that a mechanical thermostat will give you.

Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around
the AC coils instead of going through them. You want efficiency? It's
not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it
during the winter.

You can't be serious

It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and
gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside,
force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the
outside. When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is
cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw
outside air into the house directly?

The A/C does *MORE* than just cool the air... but I just don't have the time
or the inclination to explain it all to you. Its pretty obvious that your
not a tech by any stretch of the imagination.

To the OP... I would highly recommend that you call your local *COMPETENT*,
licensed, insured, professionally trained, HVAC technician to do a complete
assesment of your home to see what it actually needs, and recomendations for
a top quality installation of a top quality system that is best suited for
your home in your particular climate.


--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating & A/C

"Stop calling me for freebies Satan,
I'll fix your air conditioner when you pay me, Cheapskate!"

Steve wrote:

If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and
adjusted,

How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?

If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
it's place?

What is meant by improper? That a water line is connected to the gas
input line? That the upstairs thermostat is connected to the furnace AC
power input? That the return duct and output air plenum are connected
backwards?

aluminized steel or stainless....
either will give you a good service life.

How does the correct sizing of a furnace impact on whether or not the
heat exchanger lifespan is impacted by being stainless steel or regular
steel?

90% of those (ECM motor) failures were due to incorrectly designed
and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures.

Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed
contractors?

Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in
question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or
burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor?

I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same
ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.

Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.

Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of
****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor,
and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10
cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an
entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace
otherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The
extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as
heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall
depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy.

you need to do some more homework here.

You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
statements above are wrong.

I'm right when I say that:

1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
hp AC motor running at full speed.

2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
point of view of the home owner.

3) You can't compare the energy usage of an ECM motor running 1/4 or 1/2
speed against a single-speed AC motor. If you want to compare the costs
of multi-speed operation, then you must compare ECM with a 2-speed AC
motor, and you must correctly estimate the amount of time (total hours
per year) that the fan will be running at fractional speed.

Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's
4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher,
repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household
wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception.

ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan,

Totally wrong, because you have to factor in the control or drive
electronics that's powering the motor, and when you do, you'll end up
with burned out transistors.

use half the energy to run

The efficiency of fractional horse-power ECM motors are (at best) 60%,
while a 1/4 hp PSC AC motor will have an efficiency of 40% (if running
at full speed). 1/4 horse power is about 186 watts, so an AC motor will
use about 465 watts, while an ECM motor will use 310 watts. The
difference (about 155 watts) would use 1,357 kw hours given a
continuous 1-year run time. If the total electricity cost was 15 cents
per kw hour, then that equates to $200 per year.

Now if you consider the case of a 2-speed AC motor compared with a
2-speed (or even variable-speed ECM furnace) and if you factor in that
in a typical use-case that neither motor would or could be operating for
up to 25% of the time, then the potential savings from using an ECM
motor will almost certainly drop to closer to $100 per year.

Now if you factor in that the 155 watts of extra energy being used by
the AC motor is given back to the house as heat, then you need to
determine what that equates to in terms of cubic-feet of equivalent
natural gas and subtract the cost of that amout of natural gas from your
electricty bill to get the true additional electric cost by using an AC
motor instead of an ECM motor.

While all ECM motors are capable of infinitely variable speed and can be
implimented as such by something as cheap and easy as programming code
in the controller, furnace makers charge a fortune for anything more
than simple 2-speed operation. That is another crock of **** for this
industry.

and are a whole lot quieter than PSC motors.

I could argue that a belt-driven fan with an AC motor with bushings is
quieter than a direct-drive ECM motor with ball bearings.

Only the cheapest manufactures with the cheapest models of
furnaces have issues with RFI. yes you will get what
you pay for.

Or so you think. There's no way that a home-owner (or even consumer
reports) is going to know which units put out RFI, and which units
actually give you what you pay for. Models change all the time - too
fast for independant testing and analysis to have any effect or be
useful for the buying public.

Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.

The average system that I install uses 30% - 40% less energy to run.

Which equates to 155 watts as I calculated above.

So where are we?

Talking about how you need to go back to school, and get up to
speed with the new systems.

Be a man and tell me where I've said anything wrong.

2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
years ago is bad. Using stainless is good.

Stainless is good, but also much more expensive. Will the additional
cost be worth it in your location? Keep in mind that heating and
cooling systems are not built to last forever.

We're comparing 30 - 40 year-old furnace technology with conventional
furnaces. If furnaces cost proportionately more today in terms of % of
disposable income then I should expect no less durability or longevity
compared to the older furnaces. You seem to be an appologist for the
industry by indicating that we should pay more and expect less.

3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings
point of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to
use electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.

Please explain how this is so??

Because standing pilot lights have been used for decades and have proven
themselves to be reliable, safe, simple, and cheap.

or do you advocate removing half of the safety devices on the
furnace in favor of a standing pilot??

The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
disagree?

I don't know of *ANY* legitmate HVAC tech that would purposly want
to remove safeties from any gas appliance.

Removing the electronic ignition and replacing it with a pilot-light and
thermocouple does not constitute "removing a safety" device. Get a grip
here.

4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or
1/3 hp AC squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings
don't justify extra cost and reduced longevity.

Please explain how you come up with this.

See above. Best case savings is $200 a year, typical savings will
almost certainly be less than $100 a year.

Anyone who lives in a climate zone where they expect to use their
furnace at least 5 months out of the year will realize less than $100
savings in their combined electric and gas bill just by having a furnace
with an ECM motor. Anyone who lives in a more temperate climate zone
and runs their fan more often either alone or in conjunction with their
A/C unit will come closer to the $200 in electricity savings.

BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer

We're talking simply about ECM motors replacing conventional PSC AC fan
motors in residential furnaces. Motors that are part of other
components (heat pumps, A/C compressors, dishwashers, clothes washers,
dryers, etc) are another matter and have different cost/benefit
arguments.

As a consumer, give me the choice of (...)

So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled..

The single largest decrease in my energy bill that the furnace industry
can give me compared to what I have now comes from the 2-stage
condensing heat exchanger. Better airflow design, thinner materials,
stainless, possibly better burner design, etc. All of that comes from
better thermodynamics and materials - NOT ELECTRONICS.

The addition of electronics - particularly the electronic ignition and
ECM fan motor, adds unnecessary cost and complication to the modern
furnace with no tangible benefit to the home-owner and comes with
additional medium to long-term cost of ownership costs and device
down-time caused by component failure.

Technology is a good thing when the contractor/installer/tech
has the training, education, and experience

Screw the contractor. I want a box that will sit there and work year
after year. It's no consolation to me that a repair tech is just a
phone call away. I'll take reliability and durability any day over
repairability. Especially when it comes with lower up-front costs (no
electronics). And in this case, I'm not even sacrificing
repairability. Low tech = high repairability.

to me it sounds like your not happy because its no longer
a DIY proposition, and you can't make it work correctly.

I can install myself any furnace. That's not the point. I'm just
bitching about they choices that furnace makers are making when they
design / build them.

in case you haven't noticed, *EVERYTHING* has electronics
in it these days. The electronics make things safer, and
more energy efficient.

When you have electronic ignition, you HAVE TO HAVE an array of
electronic sensors to make it safe. Having those sensors and
electronics comes with a price - a hit to cost, durability, reliability.

When you have a standing pilot light with electro-mechanical
thermocouple and gas valve, you don't need sensors or electronics,
because it's inherently safe.

FWIW, a good quality digital control can reduce your energy bills

We're not talking about the thermost here. I can have the most
advanced, computer-controlled thermostat I want upstairs to control my
35 year-old furnace, yet still have no electronics *in* my furnace.
Understand the difference?

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve wrote:


I will interject my $.02 here...

How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?

By having too high of a TESP (total external static pressure.


If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
it's place?


Older furnaces had a lower CFM rating, hence they have a higher temp rise
for a given output BTU rating. Newer equipment for effeciency's sake have
thinner heat exchangers (less metal thickness to push the heat through) that
can't tolerate the heat without cracking hence they have a higher CFM
rating, hence more TESP by trying to shove more CFM through the existing
ductwork.

Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed
contractors?


Sometimes, just go to the hvac-talk.com wall of shame and see all the bad
ductwork installations, many being a "ductopus" using flex duct.

Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in
question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or
burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor?

Yes, and here is why. Your average PSC or split-phase induction blower
motor on high runs at a fairly constant speed (a 4 pole motor can only speed
up from its rated speed, usually 1725 RPM to just under 1800 RPM @ 60Hz).
With a centrifugal blower (squirrel cage) the torque load on the motor is
directly controlled by the amount of air flowing through it (ande vice
versa), hence as you restrict the airflow (increase the SP) say with
undersized ductwork the blower unloads. Less torque at the same speed means
less HP (HP=torque in ft-lbs x RPM / 5252) hence less motor watts. An
underloaded motor is less effecient but lasts longer. Too little TESP on a
system with an induction motor can actually overload the motor, hence why
old systems that had belt drive blowers usually has a variable pitch sheave
on the motor. The belt ratio hence wheel speed was adjusted to run the
motor at full load with a new system. As the ductwork and/or filter got
dirty the TESP went up and the motor unloaded some.

Now here is where it gets tricky, ECMs as used on indoor blowers are
constant torque NOT constant speed. The shaft torque is held constant hence
the airflow is held mostly constant. Increase the TESP on these systems and
the blower speeds up either till the torque/airflow goes back to rated or
till the motor hits its top speed limit. More RPM X same torque / 5252 =
More HP = more watts. More watts x same airflow means hotter electronics
hence shorter life. Add in a plugged filter and the poor little motor runs
its little heart out at max speed with little cooling airflow till it burns
up.

I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same
ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.

Explained above.

Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.


You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
statements above are wrong.

I'm right when I say that:

1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
hp AC motor running at full speed.

As said this depends on TESP. At high TESP the ECM can use more watts than
the PSC.

2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
point of view of the home owner.

Electric resistance heat is usually more expensive than gas heat and in the
summer it is just more sensible heat load on the evaporator hence more watts
still loses.

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:30:00 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

Steve wrote:
snip
How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
snip

90% of those (ECM motor) failures were due to incorrectly designed
and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures.

Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed
contractors?

Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in
question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or
burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor?

It is quite possible. A belt drive blower could put up with an awfull
lot

I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of **** that the same
ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.

Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.
Not necessarily - but if the installer does not do the temperature
rize test and properly set the motor speed, you could get a failure
due to improper installation.

Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of
****. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor,
and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10
cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an
entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace
otherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The
extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as
heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall
depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy.

You underestimate the difference in efficiency between a standard
induction motor and an electronically commutated DC motor,
PARTICULARLY with multi-speed AC motors.
At lower speeds ECMs can save over 60% of the electricity used by PSC
motors.
For example, in low speed circulation a typical PSC furnace motor will
use 350 to 500 Watts while an ECM will use 75 - 125 W.


You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc38443.pdf,
but an interesting part is the following - with the same airflow,

"The power use of the ECM and the PSC motor were measured in one-time
tests using a Nanovip power meter. The ECM used 16.5 Watts in
circulation speed and 284 W in heating speed, while the PSC motor used
350 W in circulation and 490 W in heating. Thus, the ECM used 58% as
much as the PSC motor in heating speed, but only 5% as much in
circulation. The ECMs flow rate was almost identical to the PSCs in
heating speed, and was 47% of the PSCs in circulation speed."

you need to do some more homework here.
Ditto
You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
statements above are wrong.

I'm right when I say that:

1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
hp AC motor running at full speed.

The National Research Council study quoted shows 206 watts difference
on high speed, and 330 watts less on low speed.

2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
point of view of the home owner.

Except when running the AC - and gas is cheaper than electricity for
heating.
3) You can't compare the energy usage of an ECM motor running 1/4 or 1/2
speed against a single-speed AC motor. If you want to compare the costs
of multi-speed operation, then you must compare ECM with a 2-speed AC
motor, and you must correctly estimate the amount of time (total hours
per year) that the fan will be running at fractional speed.


Or do as the National Research Council did, read the study - very
comprehensive testing.
Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's
4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher,
repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household
wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception.

ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan,

Totally wrong, because you have to factor in the control or drive
electronics that's powering the motor, and when you do, you'll end up
with burned out transistors.

Actually, they are finding the ECM to last at least as long as the AC
motor in many tests. (in part because they run cooler).
The motor control electronics are the least troublesom of all the
controls on modern furnaces.
SNIP

The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
disagree?


I do.
I've replaced too many thermocouples on standing pilot furnaces - and
NO electonic ignitors so far on the new furnaces. Average lifespan of
my thermocouples has been less than 7 years (5 in 22 years on my own
furnace, and 5 in 7 years on my friend's gas boiler) I'm on #3 on my
water heater as well.
This is, I believe, year 8 on the electronic ignition furnace.

SNIP

See above. Best case savings is $200 a year, typical savings will
almost certainly be less than $100 a year.

Anyone who lives in a climate zone where they expect to use their
furnace at least 5 months out of the year will realize less than $100
savings in their combined electric and gas bill just by having a furnace
with an ECM motor. Anyone who lives in a more temperate climate zone
and runs their fan more often either alone or in conjunction with their
A/C unit will come closer to the $200 in electricity savings.

The blower in my furnace runs at low speed 100% of the time that the
furnace is not running on high for heat or a/c. (for air cleaner and
overall comfort)
If the furnace NEVER kicked on, the ECM saves me 2890kwh per year.
(330 watts X 24 hrs/day X 365=2890800 wh).That's $232 at $0.08 per
kwh. and that's not counting the savings when the furnace is actually
running. And the actual cost of electricity is more than $0.08/kwh
here when you add in the distribution charges and everything else, and
throw on 13% HST

BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer

We're talking simply about ECM motors replacing conventional PSC AC fan
motors in residential furnaces. Motors that are part of other
components (heat pumps, A/C compressors, dishwashers, clothes washers,
dryers, etc) are another matter and have different cost/benefit
arguments.

As a consumer, give me the choice of (...)

So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled..

The single largest decrease in my energy bill that the furnace industry
can give me compared to what I have now comes from the 2-stage
condensing heat exchanger. Better airflow design, thinner materials,
stainless, possibly better burner design, etc. All of that comes from
better thermodynamics and materials - NOT ELECTRONICS.

Actually, IF the condensing furnace is 7% more efficient than the
equivalent non-condensing furnace, (97 vs 90) the fuel savings will be
about 8%. With my total annual gas bill of $700 (part of which is my
water heater) my maximum total gas savings would be less than $56 per
year.
Not a very attractive payback, particularly if I end up replacing the
secondary heat exchanger in 10 years.

SNIP

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve wrote:

If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and
adjusted,

How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?

If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
it's place?


SNIP whiny drivel



You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
statements above are wrong.


Come on over and I'll put my money in your mouth and you will see exactly what kind of big man I am. In fact, you will CHOKE on my manhood.


SNIP more drivel

The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
disagree?


Come on over and feel them in your mouth.



I can install myself any furnace. That's not the point. I'm just
bitching about they choices that furnace makers are making when they
design / build them.

You can install my very large penis in your mouth and install a very large amount of jizz in your belly.

On Dec 5, 11:08*am, Home Guy wrote:
ransley wrote:
I didnt know furnaces ran windows.

Don't joke. *Next year they'll be running linux or android.

Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago
the top results were suprising

So post them here.

If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger
not treated steel.

Yes. *Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. *Take a
magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they
have on display.

Vsdc should also save you 15-30% *on electric usage overall.
The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard
but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now

Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. *ECM motors are a crock of ****.
Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if
you have 2-speed AC motor. *Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about
$100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). *Now subtract
the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other
blowers and condensate pump. *The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are
dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter
(and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted
energy.

Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8
times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs
higher). *ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can
interfere with tv and radio reception.

Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.

So where are we?

1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%)
furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or
take) - which is good. *I do like that improvement.

2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
years ago is bad. *Using stainless is good.

3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point
of view compared to standing pilot light. *No real need to use
electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.

4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC
squirrel cage motor. **Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify
extra cost and reduced longevity.

As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional
pilot. *Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. *Give me the
choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve
and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. *Give me all stainless
for the exchangers. *If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say
that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of ****.

Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around
the AC coils instead of going through them. *You want efficiency? *It's
not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it
during the winter.

It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and
gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside,
force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the
outside. *When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is
cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw
outside air into the house directly?

I dont know how to cut and paste yet but its 2008 CR magazine furnace
survey

Ecm Vsdc, it can run at 100watts vs 375 for my 1/4hp, thats near 70%
saving in slow mode, maybe near 100w less at high speed.

Who in the US pays only 0.10c per Kwh, you must live near a big Dam
and get subsidised electric because im .18 and so is the rest of the
US, many place are near 0.25 kwh.

You miss the point, its comfort or else you wouldnt even have a
heating system. Vsdc can remove in low speed maybe 50% more moisture
with minimal cooling so its great in humid areas, great for homes with
uneven heat. It is about comfort, but can save the cost of the motor
in electric usage over 6-7 years. That was my figure years ago at .
125kwh.

You have to know yearly hours run in heat and AC and a real Kwh cost
to make any claim to it not paying back.

Lifespan, are you refering to the old or new redesign motor.

Electronic ignitions failing, so do thermocuples.