On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:12:30 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've seen US TV shows where they are in a public space in an apartment
block. Is this the norm?

I wouldn't go there. SWMBO'd town house in St Albans had the meter
and CU in the bin cupboard outside the front door. Simple through
door latch gave access to anybody. All the same type houses on the
estate were the same, I don't think any had even so much as a hasp
and padlock on the cupboard door...

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article , JW
writes

Anyway, I'm glad to see you've flip-flopped on the issue. Doesn't matter
what the **** it looks like if it's not out in the open living space.

No idea what 'flip flopping' you're boring on about, but if you're
unable to understand my posts, I suggest you take some classes in
remedial English.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:38:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.


Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district? It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling. It really is too low for even
distribution within a house. I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

d

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny Krueger
writes

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so many
circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Yes, it'll feed the entire building.

It doesn't belong in a closet for a rented room!

Note the wiring includes the
supplier's meter, unlike those ugly external meters used in North
America. The meter is read remotely.

Remotely read meters have been in the US for a long time, but there is an
immense backlog of old work. Ours was converted in the past few years. It's
still large, ugly and outside, by the side door.

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along. Also, electrical distribution had a very rapid and
early introduction so we have a ton of very old work that is still in use.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in Germany
looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after* WW2. We had
416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

AFAIK the nearest three phase distribution point here to my house here in
Grosse Pointe is about a half mile away. Our church here in town has a
number of 3 phase motors and it has its own 3 phase line and separate pole
transformer for just that phase. The electric company can't figure out how
to size that transformer, and it fails about every 5 years.

As another poster said, this is a 3-phase supply. Notice how thin the
main incomer is, yet that'll be supplying 100A per phase.


Yes, the salutary effects of higher voltages on conductor size are very
apparent. U.S. standards for wiring are getting to be excessively expensive
to implement. Aluminum was tried and rejected for general house wiring, but
is being used for distribution up to the breaker box and for large loads
downstream of it.

You have to remember that when most of our standards were developed and
widely implemented, copper was a cheap byproduct of mining silver. ;-)

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012 at 13:46:53h +0000, Don Pearce asked:

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines?

The 240 V will come most probably from the use of two 120 V lines
which are 180 degrees out of phase.

(How come it is 120 V rather than 110 V? Higher rural voltage maybe?)

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 08:50:22h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

here to my house here in Grosse Pointe

Is this it?

http://upload.wikimedia.ORG/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/GrossePointeMansion.jpg

From the style of many of the houses in Grosse Pointe, one might
think one was back in a very salubrious part of England.

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

It doesn't belong in a closet for a rented room!

Sure doesn't, but remember much of the UK housing stock is old and
predates electricity. My house still has the lead pipes embedded in the
walls which were used to feed gas lighting, and much of the old lead-
sheathed power cables (copper cores wrapped in waxed paper then sheated
in a lead outer). No longer in use, thankfully.

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along.

On the contrary, the cost of the war meant that little money was
available to improve the existing housing stock and little new was
built. What was built were cheap prefab houses intended to be
temporary. Indeed, some of those survive and are now "listed", which
means they are protected from inappropriate modification and/or
demolition.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in Germany
looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after* WW2. We had
416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

Germany has done very well since the war - a lot of money was ploughed
into the country to rebuild. Some would say too much. American and
European money.

Yes, the salutary effects of higher voltages on conductor size are very
apparent. U.S. standards for wiring are getting to be excessively expensive
to implement.

the rocketing price of copper certainly doesn't help.

Aluminum was tried and rejected for general house wiring

no wonder when you see photos like these:

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/wirefire.htm

I think, but am not sure, that it was briefly tried in the UK but not
many installations were carried out before it was withdrawn.

Some older phone infrastructural wiring in aluminium is still in use
(mainly in trunk cables) and those are known to severely degrade ADSL
sync speeds.

You have to remember that when most of our standards were developed and
widely implemented, copper was a cheap byproduct of mining silver. ;-)

Boy, have tomes changed ;-)

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district?

It is done as needed. In a residential neighborhood there may be several
transformers per block. There is a transformer in my back yard and I can
see the next one maybe 6-8 houses (on my side) down.

It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling.

240v has been widely avaiilable here since before WW2.

My expectations are that since power use is likely to decrease, and the
power drain of household equipment of a kind is generally decreasing,
there's no push for more 220 volt usage in homes.

220 volt portable houshold appliances are rare. Just a random thought but
the advent of 90-250 volt wall warts and other stuff with similar switchmode
power supplies are opening the door to future implementation of more 220
volt house wiring.

The most recent *big* user of 240 volt power was air conditioning, but
almost all of that equipment that is going to exist has probably already
been isntalled, except of course new homes. I don't expect a lot of new
homes to be built for many years.

It really is too low for even distribution within a house.

I would say that its biggest problem is that 12 guage copper wire is getting
to be pretty expensive.

I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Historical artifacts. I just rewired part of my daughter's ca. 1955 house
and all I can say is that we added a ton of new circuits and I saw many
strange things that we made go away.

Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave, and
toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

"J G Miller" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 08:50:22h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

here to my house here in Grosse Pointe

Is this it?

http://upload.wikimedia.ORG/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/GrossePointeMansion.jpg

From the style of many of the houses in Grosse Pointe, one might
think one was back in a very salubrious part of England.

Looks to me like the house down the street... ;-)

Actually, quite a ways down a different street maybe a mile or two away, and
probably within a block or two of Lake St Clair. It looks familiar but not
all that exceptional.

I live over a mile from the lake.

The Grosse Pointes are definitely colonial-themed. My house is most
definitely not. The rules for my subdivision were written after my house
was built, and contain language that seems intended to avoid a house like it
ever being built there again.

Type "1600 prestwick grosse" into Google Maps and you can see my house from
several angles. Step a bit east of the default location for the best
possible view looking about north.

Type "grosse kercheval henry" into Google Maps and take the first option
offered to see a typical retail area. Google Maps street level view allows
you to simulate walking south down Kercheval street. for a better look.

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny Krueger
writes

It doesn't belong in a closet for a rented room!

Sure doesn't, but remember much of the UK housing stock is old and
predates electricity. My house still has the lead pipes embedded in the
walls which were used to feed gas lighting, and much of the old lead-
sheathed power cables (copper cores wrapped in waxed paper then sheated
in a lead outer). No longer in use, thankfully.

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along.

On the contrary, the cost of the war meant that little money was
available to improve the existing housing stock and little new was
built. What was built were cheap prefab houses intended to be
temporary. Indeed, some of those survive and are now "listed", which
means they are protected from inappropriate modification and/or
demolition.

I have not spent a lot of time in the UK, and not in residential areas. I
rely on what I am told.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in
Germany
looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after* WW2. We had
416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

Germany has done very well since the war - a lot of money was ploughed
into the country to rebuild. Some would say too much. American and
European money.

German products are well-respected and still widely sold in the US.

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:40:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Type "1600 prestwick grosse" into Google Maps and you can see my house from
several angles. Step a bit east of the default location for the best
possible view looking about north.

So many cables on those poles. What on earth are they all?

That really isn't pretty.

d

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along. Also, electrical distribution had a very rapid
and early introduction so we have a ton of very old work that is still
in use.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in
Germany looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after*
WW2. We had 416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

AFAIK the nearest three phase distribution point here to my house here
in Grosse Pointe is about a half mile away. Our church here in town has
a number of 3 phase motors and it has its own 3 phase line and separate
pole transformer for just that phase.

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

--
*You! Off my planet!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

About the same as if we used lighting spec cable for our sockets. Not
a great plan, I'd say.

d

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

Not surprised, no. Aldi and their very similar competitor Lidl have
many stores in the UK. I think some of the food is of better quality
and cheaper than the established British supermarket chains (Tesco,
Sainsburys, Asda, Morrisons). Meat particularly is good.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

The pole transformers aren't pretty either, though produce quite
spectacular pyrotechnics when they fail, which seems to happen more
often than it should.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , Mike Tomlinson
writes

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.

Plus the cores are different colours, of course, white and black instead
of blue and brown. Black is hot (=live)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Romex_cable.agr.jpg

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.

Most wholesalers stock both grey and white TW&E.

--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Arny Krueger
writes

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

Not surprised, no. Aldi and their very similar competitor Lidl have
many stores in the UK. I think some of the food is of better quality
and cheaper than the established British supermarket chains (Tesco,
Sainsburys, Asda, Morrisons). Meat particularly is good.

I use Lidl for some things. Not fresh vegetables, though. Or meat. Dairy
products are good value as are most other non fresh things.
Their tools in general are excellent - far better than budget stuff
elsewhere. But are only ever on special offer so you need to look out for
them. Don't have an Aldi anywhere close.

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:43:01 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

The pole transformers aren't pretty either, though produce quite
spectacular pyrotechnics when they fail, which seems to happen more
often than it should.

Pole transformers here seem to be a resource of last resort, usually
in a rural backwater. They have multiple taps on them so the linesman
can do his best to recover as much of the 240 volts as he can, despite
their distance from the nearest substation.

d

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:40:17 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

About the same as if we used lighting spec cable for our sockets. Not
a great plan, I'd say.

d

Oops, I forgot. With a ring main we are effectively using it doubled
up - two runs in parallel. That means that we only load our domestic
cables a quarter as much as they do in the US. No wonder we don't
suffer from voltage sag here when we turn things on.

d

On 03/02/2012 15:59, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Mike wrote:
In articleMpudnU_xP60ibrbSnZ2dnUVZ5sydnZ2d@giganews. com, Arny Krueger
writes

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

Not surprised, no. Aldi and their very similar competitor Lidl have
many stores in the UK. I think some of the food is of better quality
and cheaper than the established British supermarket chains (Tesco,
Sainsburys, Asda, Morrisons). Meat particularly is good.

I use Lidl for some things. Not fresh vegetables, though. Or meat. Dairy
products are good value as are most other non fresh things.
Their tools in general are excellent - far better than budget stuff
elsewhere. But are only ever on special offer so you need to look out for
them. Don't have an Aldi anywhere close.


SWMBO shops there a lot, including for meat, fruit and veg. Good quality
at good prices. We regularly shop at Lidl in the Netherlands too, where
the wine is especially good value.

--
Peter

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:38:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at
the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block,
and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm
not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just
two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two
boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the
building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.


Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district? It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling. It really is too low for even
distribution within a house. I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Also it doesn't allow high-power devices such as kettles to be driven from
120V, hence the tendency for water in the US to be boiled in a pan on a
cooker hob which much be horrendously slow (I know from when I've had to do
it on a gas or electric hob when the kettle was broken).

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district?

It is done as needed. In a residential neighborhood there may be several
transformers per block. There is a transformer in my back yard and I can
see the next one maybe 6-8 houses (on my side) down.

It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling.

240v has been widely avaiilable here since before WW2.

My expectations are that since power use is likely to decrease, and the
power drain of household equipment of a kind is generally decreasing,
there's no push for more 220 volt usage in homes.

220 volt portable houshold appliances are rare. Just a random thought but
the advent of 90-250 volt wall warts and other stuff with similar
switchmode power supplies are opening the door to future implementation of
more 220 volt house wiring.

The most recent *big* user of 240 volt power was air conditioning, but
almost all of that equipment that is going to exist has probably already
been isntalled, except of course new homes. I don't expect a lot of new
homes to be built for many years.

It really is too low for even distribution within a house.

I would say that its biggest problem is that 12 guage copper wire is
getting to be pretty expensive.

I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Historical artifacts. I just rewired part of my daughter's ca. 1955 house
and all I can say is that we added a ton of new circuits and I saw many
strange things that we made go away.

Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave, and
toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

In the UK, all of these could be driven from one ring main without the need
for separate radials from the fusebox for each one. Most houses I've seen
just have two ring mains (one for upstairs, one for downstairs), separate
circuits for really high power devices (cooker, immersion heater, electric
shower circuit - if fitted) and one or two lighting circuits. Things like
microwaves would be fine in a ring main. Ring mains are fused at 30 A which
means you could have plug-in appliances to a total of 7.2 kW downstairs and
the same upstairs. Mind you, you have to be aware of the electricity company
master fuse which is (I think) around 60 A :-)

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:24:45 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:

Also it doesn't allow high-power devices such as kettles to be driven from
120V, hence the tendency for water in the US to be boiled in a pan on a
cooker hob which much be horrendously slow (I know from when I've had to do
it on a gas or electric hob when the kettle was broken).

I have one horrible memory of once being at a girlfriend's house in
New York (no, that wasn't the horrible bit). She was drying her hair.
The drier plug was hanging half out as they always do (bugger all
retention or location in a US mains plug) and it was almost glowing
red hot from the current.

d

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l1...erWardrobe.jpg

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...akkies/002.jpg

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:

Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Googling shows pictures that are nearly identical if not exactly identical.

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?

Not commonly, but occasionally in older dwellings. Most of what you are
talking about is due to motor starting surges, so the light dimming is
pretty much cosmetic. Not that I would intentionally tolerate it.

All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Given that our toaster ovens use up about 95% of a 15 amp circuit, two of
them put a quick end to 15a fuses and pretty quickly open 15a breakers. The
larger microwaves are only a little lighter on the draw, so a microwave and
a toaster oven on the same circuit won't be very relaible, either. Ditto for
our larger electric coffee and tea pots. I don't know how to get around
that.


Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

That checks out.


If my tables are right, 2.5 mm is about 10 gauge, which is a lot more
copper than our 12 gauge. Almost twice as much. We consider 10 gauge to be
suitable for 30 amp wiring, which would indeed handle two devices from the
list microwaves, toasters, coffee pots, etc. A garbage disposal could run
on the same circuit without tripping or frying anything. Probably no light
dimming, either. And, that is at 120 volts!

250 feet of 10/3 romex runs about $200. I wonder why people aren't
importing wire from the UK - your prices are pretty cheap!

..

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

Does not seem to be true. My wire tables say 2.5 mm diameter copper is more
like 10 gauge.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:59:49 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If my tables are right, 2.5 mm is about 10 gauge, which is a lot more
copper than our 12 gauge.

It is called 2.5mm, but it is actually 2.5 square mm, which is about
your 12 gauge.

d

"Mortimer" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district?

It is done as needed. In a residential neighborhood there may be several
transformers per block. There is a transformer in my back yard and I can
see the next one maybe 6-8 houses (on my side) down.

It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling.

240v has been widely avaiilable here since before WW2.

My expectations are that since power use is likely to decrease, and the
power drain of household equipment of a kind is generally decreasing,
there's no push for more 220 volt usage in homes.

220 volt portable houshold appliances are rare. Just a random thought but
the advent of 90-250 volt wall warts and other stuff with similar
switchmode power supplies are opening the door to future implementation
of more 220 volt house wiring.

The most recent *big* user of 240 volt power was air conditioning, but
almost all of that equipment that is going to exist has probably already
been isntalled, except of course new homes. I don't expect a lot of new
homes to be built for many years.

It really is too low for even distribution within a house.

I would say that its biggest problem is that 12 guage copper wire is
getting to be pretty expensive.

I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Historical artifacts. I just rewired part of my daughter's ca. 1955
house and all I can say is that we added a ton of new circuits and I saw
many strange things that we made go away.

Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

In the UK, all of these could be driven from one ring main without the
need for separate radials from the fusebox for each one.

That makes sense if your rings are 10 gauge (2.5 mm),

There are two cables in parallel since its a ring.

The current is cut in half by the doubled line voltage.

Most houses I've seen just have two ring mains (one for upstairs, one for
downstairs), separate circuits for really high power devices (cooker,
immersion heater, electric shower circuit - if fitted) and one or two
lighting circuits.

My downstairs has something like ten 120 volt circuits, and there are about
another 8 circuits upstairs. As I mentioned, a typical modern US kitchen has
5-6 120 v circuits all by itself, not including the 230 v electric oven.

Electric stoves and ovens are always on their own 230 volt circuit, usually
fused for 30 amps with 10 gauge cable. Don't happen to have one - we cook
and heat with natural gas.


Things like microwaves would be fine in a ring main. Ring mains are fused
at 30 A which means you could have plug-in appliances to a total of 7.2 kW
downstairs and the same upstairs. Mind you, you have to be aware of the
electricity company master fuse which is (I think) around 60 A :-)

The 10 gauge wire, the ring configuration, and the doubled line voltage
explain all that.

I see the ring as being a bit of a problem. I guess you circumvent that
problem by fusing individual power cables on each appliance, if I'm
following your discussion.

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 09:40:03h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

I live over a mile from the lake.

Does Lake St Clair normally freeze over?

I would guess that this year it has not.

you can see my house from several angles.

No TV antenna it would appear. Have you never been
tempted to put up a tower?

Do you watch CBET or TV Ontario very often?

I notice that you are at the back of a mini strip mall
on Mack Avenue in which there are two vacancies.

Have these now been filled or have more stores gone under
since the Google car passed by?

Type "grosse kercheval henry" into Google Maps

Presumably you mean the area around Henry Ford Medical Center Pierson Clinic.

It is surprising how many of the newer building look quite similar
to new buildings that one would see in new retails developments in
outer suburbs of some European cities.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:

Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Googling shows pictures that are nearly identical if not exactly
identical.

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some
way?

Not commonly, but occasionally in older dwellings. Most of what you are
talking about is due to motor starting surges, so the light dimming is
pretty much cosmetic. Not that I would intentionally tolerate it.

All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Given that our toaster ovens use up about 95% of a 15 amp circuit, two of
them put a quick end to 15a fuses and pretty quickly open 15a breakers.
The larger microwaves are only a little lighter on the draw, so a
microwave and a toaster oven on the same circuit won't be very relaible,
either. Ditto for our larger electric coffee and tea pots. I don't know
how to get around that.

Ah, is the limit on a 110V circuit only 15A? I can see how you'd hit that
limit pretty quickly. I'd assumed that with half the voltage the circuits
would be rated for twice the current so as to still be able to drive
equipment of the same power.

I suppose a 3 kW (3-bar) electric fire needs more than a normal circuit,
given that it draws 12.5 A at 240 V, so an equivalent one for 110V would be
a little over 25 A. And as for a 6 kW electric shower, that would be 50 A.
Quite a current! OK, so showers need their own circuit even in 240 V land!

As a matter of interest, when a mains socket is switched from a wall switch
for use with table lamps so they can all be switched on as you come into a
room, are those circuits rated at the same current as other non-switched
circuits or are they specially labelled to prevent people accidentally
plugging powerful appliances into what is effectively a lighting circuit?

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:59:49 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If my tables are right, 2.5 mm is about 10 gauge, which is a lot more
copper than our 12 gauge.

It is called 2.5mm, but it is actually 2.5 square mm, which is about
your 12 gauge.


Well you still have the doubled advantage of feeding the ring from both ends
and using twice the voltage.

I'm not so sure about rings, but the doubled voltage looks good to me given
that I would have enough appliances that ran on 240 volts to be interesting.
I don't.

"Mortimer" wrote in message
...

Also it doesn't allow high-power devices such as kettles to be driven from
120V, hence the tendency for water in the US to be boiled in a pan on a
cooker hob which much be horrendously slow (I know from when I've had to
do it on a gas or electric hob when the kettle was broken).


I have a 1500 watt electric pot that heats 1.7 L of water in about 3
minutes. Less water, down to about a liter (what it takes to cover the
coils) heats significantly quicker.

Works for me!

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:40:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Type "1600 prestwick grosse" into Google Maps and you can see my house
from
several angles. Step a bit east of the default location for the best
possible view looking about north.

So many cables on those poles. What on earth are they all?

That really isn't pretty.

Agreed.

On the pole:

Two cable system local feeds plus the main lines for about a dozen streets.
Yup, two completely independent digital TVcable/internet/phone systems -
isn't competition lovely?

Analog Telephone lines for my house plus the 8 or so businesses

Large analog telephone cable for a goodly number of streets.

Electric 120/240 for my house plus the businesses.

The top 3 wires are 4800 volts 3 phase to keep the power transformers in our
back yards happy.

The pole also holds the battery box for one of the 2 cable systems. The
other one is in my back yard.

Since the picture was taken, the battery box was about doubled in size and
the wiring was cleaned up.

In a newer suburbs it would all be buried.

"J G Miller" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 09:40:03h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

I live over a mile from the lake.

Does Lake St Clair normally freeze over?

Yes, but not so much lately.

I would guess that this year it has not.

Correct.

you can see my house from several angles.

No TV antenna it would appear. Have you never been
tempted to put up a tower?

There used to be one, but we've had cable for decades.

Do you watch CBET or TV Ontario very often?

No, but I watch the BBC USA channel on cable.

I notice that you are at the back of a mini strip mall
on Mack Avenue in which there are two vacancies.

Mack Avenue is solid businesses on the west side from Moross to Vernier, and
intermittant businesses on the east side.

Have these now been filled or have more stores gone under
since the Google car passed by?

I think we have 2 current vacancies. At least 3 new businesses have moved in
over the past year, and two that were active when the picture was taken have
folded or moved.

There is a major problem with parking. We walk or ride our bikes a lot, but
almost nobody else does.

Type "grosse kercheval henry" into Google Maps

Presumably you mean the area around Henry Ford Medical Center Pierson
Clinic.

Yes. We call that area "Villiage on the Hill".

BTW the building accorss the street at 120-130 Kercheval is owned by a
friend and was built about 5 years ago.

It is surprising how many of the newer building look quite similar
to new buildings that one would see in new retails developments in
outer suburbs of some European cities.

Completely intentional. Strongly encouraged by the town councils.

Many of the residences around here are also in a style we call "Colonial".
They sort of go with the stores.

BTW my son lives in eastern Pennsylvania so I know what *real* colonial
looks like and this isn't it. ;-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along. Also, electrical distribution had a very rapid
and early introduction so we have a ton of very old work that is still
in use.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in
Germany looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after*
WW2. We had 416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

AFAIK the nearest three phase distribution point here to my house here
in Grosse Pointe is about a half mile away. Our church here in town has
a number of 3 phase motors and it has its own 3 phase line and separate
pole transformer for just that phase.

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

When these places were wired (1910-1935), underground wiring was
prohibitively expensive. Underground became the rule in the 70's.

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

The pole transformers aren't pretty either, though produce quite
spectacular pyrotechnics when they fail, which seems to happen more
often than it should.

I'm on my second one, but the first went quietly.

One went off like the 4th of July a few streets over, maybe 10 years ago.