In article ,
David Looser wrote:
This all seems as pointless as Dave's slagging-off of US sockets.

Simply that I did get involved with using them many years ago, and assumed
the design had improved by now.

You'd really need to install some and be familiar with installing UK ones
too to make a true comparison.

--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/02/2012 10:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articlea9ydndpv9tTzPbDSnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@giganews. com,
Arny wrote:
The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US
outlet.

You could say the same about analogue TV. Doesn't make 525/60 NTSC better
than 625/50 PAL, though. ;-)


™« Betcha' goin' fishing, all the time ™«

You swine, ****ing myself laughing at this exchange...

Ron

On 1/3/2012 1:53 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger"

I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
Domain measurement systems for market.

The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
Hachette Publications property stickers on them.


** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?

Anyhow - here's a pic of one:

http://www.nessales.com/ebay/13318/A... Pic%20(0).JPG


That looks very much like one of the two units I have been working with. It
is the later model with optical digital I/O. The earlier version is
coax-based and used RCA jacks.



WOW, what a great thread. We could have a record here, just as long as
we don't keep on subject. I think DB's are nonsense, what's wrong with a
massive ring and sliced taps ??

Rheilly

On 04/02/2012 15:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Aluminium cable was tried here briefly many years ago - but I've never
come across it. Only used by those who put money before safety and
longevity.

We had aluminium (note UK spelling!) telephone cable until recently.
It's been replaced with copper, and it's noticeably better.

Andy

On 05/02/2012 15:31, Andy Champ wrote:
On 04/02/2012 15:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Aluminium cable was tried here briefly many years ago - but I've never
come across it. Only used by those who put money before safety and
longevity.

We had aluminium (note UK spelling!) telephone cable until recently.
It's been replaced with copper, and it's noticeably better.

Andy
Hoover use/used aluminium wire for field coils in their washing machine
motors, it was always giving trouble with fractures and poor connections
at the crimps.

Ron

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US
outlet.

You could say the same about analogue TV. Doesn't make 525/60 NTSC better
than 625/50 PAL, though. ;-)

????

Analog TV, what's that? ;-)

AFAIK, we haven't had analog TV broadcast anywhere in the US since June
2009. I know that in theory, US broadcasters have into 2015 to make the
switch, but in reality the switchover was highly pervasive on the first day
possible, not the last.

On 05/02/2012 17:54, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Dave Plowman wrote in message
...
In articlea9ydndpv9tTzPbDSnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@giganews. com,
Arny wrote:
The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US
outlet.

You could say the same about analogue TV. Doesn't make 525/60 NTSC better
than 625/50 PAL, though. ;-)

????

Analog TV, what's that? ;-)

AFAIK, we haven't had analog TV broadcast anywhere in the US since June
2009. I know that in theory, US broadcasters have into 2015 to make the
switch, but in reality the switchover was highly pervasive on the first day
possible, not the last.


Surely you remember analogue TV Arny, it's when we had five channels of
rubbish, now we have 900 channels and it's still rubbish

Ron

In message , Arny Krueger
writes:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US
outlet.

You could say the same about analogue TV. Doesn't make 525/60 NTSC better
than 625/50 PAL, though. ;-)

(Nor worse, though it sometimes was.)

????

Analog TV, what's that? ;-)

AFAIK, we haven't had analog TV broadcast anywhere in the US since June
2009. I know that in theory, US broadcasters have into 2015 to make the
switch, but in reality the switchover was highly pervasive on the first day
possible, not the last.


Another difference between us! Here the analog was/is kept broadcast
until the day of switchover (which is happening region by region, with
the last few regions happening this 2012 year).

But you've got to remember that this is the country that kept 405-line
going for, I think, longer after 625 started than it had been going
before that. (And in Eire - who also kept it going almost as long - the
last few years of 405 were generated in a rather endearing manner.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You asking for a slap across the face with a wet pedant?-}

On 2/5/12 7:04 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
But you've got to remember that this is the country that kept 405-line
going for, I think, longer after 625 started than it had been going
before that.

Erm, 405 started before the war and was alone until 1964? Then it
continued for another 20 years?

gr, hwh

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 19:13:21 +0100, hwh
wrote:

On 2/5/12 7:04 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
But you've got to remember that this is the country that kept 405-line
going for, I think, longer after 625 started than it had been going
before that.

Erm, 405 started before the war and was alone until 1964? Then it
continued for another 20 years?


When 405 lines was introduced, its title was "High Definition
Television".

So nothing has changed, eh?

d

In message , hwh
writes:
On 2/5/12 7:04 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
But you've got to remember that this is the country that kept 405-line
going for, I think, longer after 625 started than it had been going
before that.

Erm, 405 started before the war and was alone until 1964? Then it
continued for another 20 years?

gr, hwh

OK, so I was wrong about the second period being longer than the first
(though the number of receivers near the beginning of the first period
was tiny). Don't include the war itself - it was turned off during that.
(No TV!)

No, I've looked it up: UK 1936-1985 (fully from 1937, but not during the
war: 1939-9-1, back after in fact, in 1946); Eire 1961-1982 (they had
625-line from 1962). [Hong Kong 405: 1957-1973. Other countries,
experimental only, in 1939.] All from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/405_line.

I was mainly responding to the person who said that in theory USA could
still have analogue TV until (I think he said) 2015, but had switched as
soon as they could; UK, in contrast, keeps old systems going a Long
Time. Less so nowadays - most early digital terrestrial TV boxes will be
killed off by the switchover (a change to the encoding is coming in at
the same time), and those will only have been in use a comparatively low
number of years.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You asking for a slap across the face with a wet pedant?-}

hwh wrote:
On 2/5/12 7:04 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
But you've got to remember that this is the country that kept 405-line
going for, I think, longer after 625 started than it had been going
before that.

Erm, 405 started before the war and was alone until 1964? Then it
continued for another 20 years?

Someone said the last two years of 405 line signals were generated by an unusal
method, I think the word they used was "endearing". What was it?

BTW, the BBC shut down TV broadcasts in for World War II, and resumed
them at the exact point in the same broadcast after the war. :-)

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes:
[]
Someone said the last two years of 405 line signals were generated by an unusal
method, I think the word they used was "endearing". What was it?

That was me. It was in Eire. For the last few years they, like the BBC,
made programmes in 625 lines, and used a digital standards converter to
produce the 405-line signals for those with old sets. Towards the end of
405 line in Eire (last 5 years I think), their standards converter broke
down, and rather than fix it they used a 405 line camera pointed at a
625 monitor (more or less).

BTW, the BBC shut down TV broadcasts in for World War II, and resumed
them at the exact point in the same broadcast after the war. :-)

Geoff.



--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You asking for a slap across the face with a wet pedant?-}

In article ,
lid says...

On 2/5/12 7:04 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
But you've got to remember that this is the country that kept 405-line
going for, I think, longer after 625 started than it had been going
before that.

Erm, 405 started before the war and was alone until 1964? Then it
continued for another 20 years?

gr, hwh

405:

1936 - 1939
1946 - 1985

625:
1964 - 2012 (BBC2 only until Nov. 69)

--

Terry

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 18:38:40 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes:
[]
Someone said the last two years of 405 line signals were generated by an unusal
method, I think the word they used was "endearing". What was it?

That was me. It was in Eire. For the last few years they, like the BBC,
made programmes in 625 lines, and used a digital standards converter to
produce the 405-line signals for those with old sets. Towards the end of
405 line in Eire (last 5 years I think), their standards converter broke
down, and rather than fix it they used a 405 line camera pointed at a
625 monitor (more or less).


I know all about telecine, but teletele? That's a new one.

d

In message , hwh
writes
Erm, 405 started before the war and was alone until 1964? Then it
continued for another 20 years?
I know colour came in, in 1967 on BBC2 but I thought that broadcasting
on BBC2 started in 1962. I know it was never on 405 lines.
--
Clive

On Sunday, February 5th, 2012, at 12:54:13h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

AFAIK, we haven't had analog TV broadcast anywhere in the US since June
2009.

That just ain't true.

What you are forgetting (or perhaps never heard of because you prefer
giving money to the cable company each month) is that Class A, Low Power
TV, and Repeater TV stations were not required to go digital only in
June 2009.

http://www.fcc.GOV/guides/dtv-transition-and-lptv-class-translator-stations

Nonetheless, your most local station of this type, formerly W66BV Detroit
has made the transition to digital.

http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/W47DL-D

Incidentally, does your cable TV company include this station on the basic tier?

And an interesting new development in the Detroit market, is that the station
licensed to Ann Arbor (formerly analog UHF channel 31) is going to start
broadcasting with a high power signal on UHF channel 50 (which was vacated
when WKBD, now on UHF channel 14, stopped analog transmissions) from the
Southfield tower site, and will cease transmitting from Ann Arbor.

http://www.michiguide.COM/archives2012/2012/01/ion-television-fires-up-new-wp.html

On Sunday, February 5th, 2012, at 18:29:03h +0000,
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

and resumed them at the exact point in the same broadcast after the war.

That is an urban legend and just not true.

In article ,
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Towards the end of
405 line in Eire (last 5 years I think), their standards converter broke
down, and rather than fix it they used a 405 line camera pointed at a
625 monitor (more or less).

Surprised they could find a working one. In the UK, a 405 line camera
would have been B&W, and all those in use were colour long before 405 got
switched off.

--
*It was all so different before everything changed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, February 5th, 2012, at 18:44:43h +0000, Clive wrote:

I know colour came in, in 1967 on BBC2 but I thought that broadcasting
on BBC2 started in 1962. I know it was never on 405 lines.

From http://www.hywel.org.UK/bbc2launch/

QUOTE

When BBC2 launched on April 20th 1964, ...


UNQUOTE

Remember also that BBC-2 was the first regular TV service transmitted in
UKofGB&NI on UHF channels.

So not only did it require a new TV to be able to tune to UHF and demodulate
the signal to 625 lines, it also needed a separate antenna to the VHF Band I
and VHF Band III antennas being used to receive the BBC television service
and the independent (commercial) television service.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote

Someone said the last two years of 405 line signals were generated by an
unusal
method, I think the word they used was "endearing". What was it?

No idea what that's supposed to mean!

BTW, the BBC shut down TV broadcasts in for World War II, and resumed
them at the exact point in the same broadcast after the war. :-)

Not really. The last actual programme pre-war was a transmission of a Mickey
Mouse film; post war TV started with a transmission of the same film. So if
you'd been glued to your TV from Sept 1939 to June 1946 you'd have seen the
film twice, thus not "resumed at the exact point"

David.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson
writes:
[]
Someone said the last two years of 405 line signals were generated by an
unusal
method, I think the word they used was "endearing". What was it?

That was me. It was in Eire. For the last few years they, like the BBC,
made programmes in 625 lines, and used a digital standards converter to
produce the 405-line signals for those with old sets. Towards the end of
405 line in Eire (last 5 years I think), their standards converter broke
down, and rather than fix it they used a 405 line camera pointed at a 625
monitor (more or less).


That technique was used used by the BBC from the early 1950s until the mid
1960s to convert to and from continental standards. I've never heard it
called "endearing" before, this bizzare word must be Irish!

David.

"J G Miller" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, February 5th, 2012, at 18:44:43h +0000, Clive wrote:

I know colour came in, in 1967 on BBC2 but I thought that broadcasting
on BBC2 started in 1962. I know it was never on 405 lines.

From http://www.hywel.org.UK/bbc2launch/

QUOTE

When BBC2 launched on April 20th 1964, ...


UNQUOTE

Remember also that BBC-2 was the first regular TV service transmitted in
UKofGB&NI on UHF channels.

So not only did it require a new TV to be able to tune to UHF and
demodulate
the signal to 625 lines, it also needed a separate antenna to the VHF Band
I
and VHF Band III antennas being used to receive the BBC television service
and the independent (commercial) television service.

Also BBC2 used -ve vision modulation and FM sound (sound carrier 6MHz above
the vision carrier), whereas the 405-line services used +ve vision
modulation and AM sound (sound carrier 3.5MHz below the vision carrier).
Dual-standard TVs were a triumph of compromise! (Dual-standard TVs were also
needed between Nov 1936 and February 1937 to cope with the Baird 240-line
system as well as the Marconi/EMI 405-line one. But in this case it was only
the timebases that needed to be switched, all RF & sound issues remained the
same).

David.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 19:37:25 +0000, David Looser wrote:

So if you'd been glued to your TV from Sept 1939 to June 1946
you'd have seen the film twice, thus not "resumed at the exact point"

And complain that all the BBC television service does is
show repeats.

"J G Miller" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 19:37:25 +0000, David Looser wrote:

So if you'd been glued to your TV from Sept 1939 to June 1946
you'd have seen the film twice, thus not "resumed at the exact point"

And complain that all the BBC television service does is
show repeats.

The BBC started the way they meant to go on ;-) the second scheduled
programme was a repeat of the first! (the opening ceremony, transmitted
first on the Baird system then repeated on the Marconi/EMI system). And in
August 1936 before the service had officially started they transmitted the
same variety programme (live) twice a day for ten days for the benefit of
trade stands at Radio Olympia.

David.

Ron wrote:

Surely you remember analogue TV Arny, it's when we had five channels
of rubbish, now we have 900 channels and it's still rubbish

What's TV?

Ron

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

On 05/02/2012 20:59, Peter Larsen wrote:
Ron wrote:

Surely you remember analogue TV Arny, it's when we had five channels
of rubbish, now we have 900 channels and it's still rubbish

What's TV?

Ron

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



The Idiot's Lantern, The Haunted Fishtank, Radio with Pictures,

Hope this helps
Ron

In message , J G Miller
writes
On Sunday, February 5th, 2012, at 18:44:43h +0000, Clive wrote:
I know colour came in, in 1967 on BBC2 but I thought that broadcasting
on BBC2 started in 1962. I know it was never on 405 lines.
From http://www.hywel.org.UK/bbc2launch/
QUOTE
When BBC2 launched on April 20th 1964, ...
UNQUOTE
Remember also that BBC-2 was the first regular TV service transmitted in
UKofGB&NI on UHF channels.
So not only did it require a new TV to be able to tune to UHF and demodulate
the signal to 625 lines, it also needed a separate antenna to the VHF Band I
and VHF Band III antennas being used to receive the BBC television service
and the independent (commercial) television service.
To add to that it also had FM sound instead of the AM used on 405 and
negative going luminance instead of the positive going luminance of 405
lines with the advantage that interference which blighted 405 with
little white "fishes" it had little black fishes and were normally out
of sight.
--
Clive

In article , Don Pearce wrote:
That was me. It was in Eire. For the last few years they, like the BBC,
made programmes in 625 lines, and used a digital standards converter to
produce the 405-line signals for those with old sets. Towards the end of
405 line in Eire (last 5 years I think), their standards converter broke
down, and rather than fix it they used a 405 line camera pointed at a
625 monitor (more or less).


I know all about telecine, but teletele? That's a new one.

Actually, it's a very old one. Before they invented clever electronic ways
of converting television standards, that's the way it was done. Even in the
1970s, although by that time there were electronic convertors for 625 lines,
the only equipment the BBC had for dealing with 819 line signals was an
optical convertor, which amounted in essence to a camera pointing at a
monitor. I'm sure the Irish broadcasters could have done something more
elegant, but maybe they didn't think it was worth the expense.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

In message en.co.uk,
Roderick Stewart writes
In article , Don Pearce wrote:
That was me. It was in Eire. For the last few years they, like the BBC,
made programmes in 625 lines, and used a digital standards converter to
produce the 405-line signals for those with old sets. Towards the end of
405 line in Eire (last 5 years I think), their standards converter broke
down, and rather than fix it they used a 405 line camera pointed at a
625 monitor (more or less).


I know all about telecine, but teletele? That's a new one.

Actually, it's a very old one. Before they invented clever electronic ways
of converting television standards, that's the way it was done. Even in the
1970s, although by that time there were electronic convertors for 625 lines,
the only equipment the BBC had for dealing with 819 line signals was an
optical convertor, which amounted in essence to a camera pointing at a
monitor. I'm sure the Irish broadcasters could have done something more
elegant, but maybe they didn't think it was worth the expense.

The UK 405-line system was almost certainly kept going for far longer
than it really needed to be. There was probably only a handful of people
who could not receive the 625-line service. At the time, I recall that
many of us said that it would be cheaper simply to buy that last little
old lady, living in a remote valley in the middle of nowhere, a new TV
set and aerial.
--
Ian

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

Unless you have unusually long cable runs or other special factors, it's
oversized.

Better oversized than undersized, especially if the run is long.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
says...


Eire 1961-1982 (they had 625-line from 1962).


I was in Ireland in August 1961, before RTE started.

On the last day, I visited the village post office where the following
conversation took place with the elderly post mistress:

She: "Would you mind me asking how much you're after paying for the
television licence in England?"

Me: "Four pounds and a pound for the wireless licence"

She (looking rather pleased with herself) "Ah! We're only after paying
the seventeen shillings and sixpence for the wireless licence and we
don't have the television licence!"

On our way home the following day I spotted the headline on the evening
paper:

£4 TV LICENCE FROM JANUARY
Wireless licence goes up to £1

I've always wished I could have seen the look on the old lady's face
when she saw that!

--

Terry

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

I'm not so sure about rings, but the doubled voltage looks good to me given
that I would have enough appliances that ran on 240 volts to be interesting.
I don't.

Think about it - your kettle would boil in half the time :-)

A colleague went to work in the USA and complained about the weedy
kettles over there that take forever to boil. I suggested he take a UK
230V kettle over with him and run it off an extension to his stove
connection (i.e. 220V). Dunno if he ever bothered.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 2/6/12 11:47 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
The UK 405-line system was almost certainly kept going for far longer
than it really needed to be. There was probably only a handful of people
who could not receive the 625-line service. At the time, I recall that
many of us said that it would be cheaper simply to buy that last little
old lady, living in a remote valley in the middle of nowhere, a new TV
set and aerial.

Maybe it would have been better to have one 625 line network on VHF,
like most other countries used until analog closedown.
Of course going from 405 to 625 would have meant ther was no room for
two networks there.

gr, hwh

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?

Both ends of the ring connect into the same breaker.

32A breaker = 16A down each leg of the ring. If each leg were fed from
its own breaker, switching one breaker off would turn the ring into a
32A radial using 16A wire! :-)

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

The breakers are 4 pole?

No, single pole on the phase wire.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , Don Pearce
writes

Try
being a little clearer next time, will you?

Terrell's a twit. Killfile fodder.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?

Yes, connecting screws each side of the socket. On the side, not on the
back, unless the socket has push-fit connectors (yuck).

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , says...


From http://www.hywel.org.UK/bbc2launch/

QUOTE

When BBC2 launched on April 20th 1964, ...


UNQUOTE


panto mode.

Oh no it didn't!

/panto mode

The launch of BBC2 was PLANNED for April 20th 1964 but a fire at
Battersea Power Station blacked out large areas of west London -
including the Television Centre - shortly before BBC2 was due to start.

As a result, BBC2 opened at 1130 on April 21st 1964 and the first
programme was Play School.

Nine years earlier, the BBC had wiped all news of the start of ITV off
the front pages by killing off Grace Archer in The Archers. Of course,
there was only one ITA transmitter in 1955, so only a small proportion
of the population could see it anyway.

But BBC2 started off with only one transmitter in exactly the same way
but still managed to get the 'non-event' on every front page the
following day!

I've always wondered if somebody might have been seen furtively slipping
out of the back door of Broadcasting House that Monday afternoon before
setting off to walk down to Battersea Bridge with a box of matches in
his coat pocket ...

--

Terry

In article , J. P. Gilliver (John)
writes

(Nor worse, though it sometimes was.)

NTSC = Never Twice the Same Colour. NTSC TVs had (still have?) a "Hue"
control for the user to twiddle when skin tones started looking a bit
green.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")