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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#241
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 12:09, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Ron wrote: Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked tickets. I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole system is remarkably cheap. If it is anything like the system they just opened in Jerusalem, you can't. With the Jerusalem system you can buy a ticket on a bus, you can buy a ticket at the central bus station and you can buy a ticket at most stops from a vending machine. Once you are on the train there is no way to buy a ticket. There is a $50 fine if you are caught without one and some of the inspectors have been fining people who had tickets that were supposed to be, but were not valid due to an unadvertised change, when the ads all said there wasn't any. If you go to one of the places they issue cards, you can get one with your picture on it, which will reduce the price if you are a senior citizen, student or disabled and you can buy a reduced price multi-trip ticket or monthly pass which is recorded on the card. I expect it is the same there too because the company which operates the rail lines is either the same one or their competition. Geoff. There are no ticket vending machines at most stops. There are terminus stations where you can pay your fair and probably some kind of 'rover' ticket, but between stations there are just halts. Belgium and Holland are pretty laid back places. On the buses you just pay the driver or wave your pass, just like here in good old Blighty. Ron |
#242
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Ron" wrote in message
... On 31/01/2012 10:22, Dave Liquorice wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:02:25 -0000, David Looser wrote: The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left. Hum, I wonder of that has anything to do with which hand one would have ones sword in? Most people are right handed so being on the right makes it harder to take a swipe at some one passing. That's the usual explanation for driving on the left in Roman times. Some say it was Napoleon who decreed driving on the right, some say it was the Pope. Which Pope? Incidentally, I was at a presentation about Barbados the other day, and was told that it's not possible to hire a car in Barbados due to the previous amount of traffic accidents involving hire cars. They drive on the left, and the majority of tourists are American and can't get used to driving on that side. I myself prefer to drive down the middle The problem I have in driving in the US is not driving on the right but the unfamilaiar roadsigns and rules of the road. The very first time I drove in the US I had just got off a direct flight from London to San Franscisco and had to drive from there to a small town in Northern California via some narrow, twisting mountain roads. To add to the fun I was navigating using a rather poor map, I'd been awake for 24hrs and the light was fading fast. I was never more glad to arrive unscathed at my destination! David. |
#243
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Jerry" wrote
The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel, unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts and any other round bar) - Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the right size hanging around the house? not many. For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit! David. |
#244
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In article ,
Ron wrote: On 31/01/2012 00:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In , Paul wrote: On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:54:08 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-) There are buses in places other than Landun you know. They don't have Oyster. Neither do I. But don't pay cash on the bus. When in Belgium last year, I found that, on the tramways, there was no place to pay the driver, and no 'conductor'. Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked tickets. I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole system is remarkably cheap. Amsterdam in the '60s had a system where no money changed hands on the trams. You bought books of tickets in a shop. Can't remember exactly how evasion was policed. -- *Ever stop to think and forget to start again? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#245
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
wrote The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel, unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts and any other round bar) - Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the right size hanging around the house? not many. For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit! David. Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Ron |
#246
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In article , David Looser
writes Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the head off the bolt. It's just Jerry's fevered imagination running away with him again. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the right size hanging around the house? Reminds me of the Americans using penny coins to short out the old porcelain screw-in fuses when those blew. -- (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
#247
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Ron" wrote in message
... On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote: wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? David. |
#248
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In article ,
David Looser wrote: For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit! Indeed. As I said, how many homes will have a plug in appliance that draws more than 13 amps so needs the fuse shorted out? I'd say it's restricted to things like some welders and compressors - which a keen DIYer might buy. -- *Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#249
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Ron" wrote in message
... On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote: wrote The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel, unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts and any other round bar) - Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the right size hanging around the house? not many. For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit! The best bit of electrical horror I encountered (and very nearly gave myself a shock with) was the extension lead on my grandpa's mower: it had a two-prong plug on the extension lead and a two-prong socket on the mower. Wrong! That left the live pins exposed. OK, I know I should have unplugged at the wall before disconnecting the mower from the extension lead to untangle the cable. To spare his blushes, I quietly rewired it with the socket on the extension lead and the plug on the mower while he wasn't looking. |
#250
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote:
wrote in message ... On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote: wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? David. I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes. It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around with them. Ron |
#251
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 15:42:34h +0000,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Can't remember exactly how evasion was policed. Roving teams of inspectors who issue on the spot citations to pay a fine. |
#252
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 11:50:07h +0000, David Looser wrote:
0 - 10: cold It is not really cold until the temperature is below -10 degrees Celcius. The important thing to consider though is the presence of any wind, resulting in a wind chill effect, and the humidity. Very humid conditions at 0 degrees C or so usually feels far worse than say -10 degrees C when it is crisp and dry. |
#253
Posted to uk.tech.broadcast,uk.tech.digital-tv,rec.audio.tech,uk.rec.audio,sci.electronics.repair
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 17:28, J G Miller wrote:
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 15:42:34h +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Can't remember exactly how evasion was policed. Roving teams of inspectors who discharged a hollowpoint round into the head of the miscreant. Fixed your post for the London Met enforcement method. |
#254
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 17:37:51h +0000, Recursor wrote:
On 31/01/2012 17:28, J G Miller wrote: On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 15:42:34h +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Can't remember exactly how evasion was policed. Roving teams of inspectors who discharged a hollowpoint round into the head of the miscreant. Fixed your post for the London Met enforcement method. Ah yes, well that is what happens if you look a bit sunburnt, wear a thick jacket with wires coming out of it, and leap over the ticket barriers. (All details of which were fabricated to justify murdering the victim.) You can see the evidence that the Metropolitan Police deliberately lied and deceived the public at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU7nL0A6ASM Remember that Greater London Mayor Kenneth Livingstone continued to fully support Ian Blair even after the true facts about the deliberate deception became public. |
#255
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 17:59:59h +0000, J G Miller wrote:
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 17:37:51h +0000, Recursor wrote: On 31/01/2012 17:28, J G Miller wrote: On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 15:42:34h +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Can't remember exactly how evasion was policed. Roving teams of inspectors who discharged a hollowpoint round into the head of the miscreant. Fixed your post for the London Met enforcement method. Incidentally it should be pointed out that there is growing list of evidence that the shooting was not in fact carried out by Metropolitan Police officers but was actually a military action by the Special Reconnaissance Regiment. http://web.archive.ORG/web/20051204000850/http://www.sundayherald.com/51372 It is alleged that the Metropolitan Police took the heat as having done the actual shooting because the FauX LaboUr administration did not want the public to know about the new role of the Special Reconnaissance Regiment in anti-terrorist activity. |
#256
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:02:25 -0000, David Looser wrote: The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left. Hum, I wonder of that has anything to do with which hand one would have ones sword in? Most people are right handed so being on the right makes it harder to take a swipe at some one passing. I've read that travelling on the left was started because the Roman roads were built to move soldiers, and if you want two groups of soldiers to pass in opposite driections, both carrying their shields on their left arms as shown in most pictures from the time, then if they pass right to right, you can make the road at least a foot narrower, as the shields can overhang the edge of the road, but would collide if the groups passed left to left. I've also read that Napoleon wanted to (a) confuse the opposition, and (b) prove that France was so civilised that travellers didn't need easy access to their swords to defend themselves from other travellers. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#257
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 17:59, J G Miller wrote:
On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 17:37:51h +0000, Recursor wrote: On 31/01/2012 17:28, J G Miller wrote: On Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, at 15:42:34h +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Can't remember exactly how evasion was policed. Roving teams of inspectors who discharged a hollowpoint round into the head of the miscreant. Fixed your post for the London Met enforcement method. Ah yes, well that is what happens if you look a bit sunburnt, wear a thick jacket with wires coming out of it, and leap over the ticket barriers. (All details of which were fabricated to justify murdering the victim.) You can see the evidence that the Metropolitan Police deliberately lied and deceived the public at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU7nL0A6ASM Remember that Greater London Mayor Kenneth Livingstone continued to fully support Ian Blair even after the true facts about the deliberate deception became public. Yeah, I see Fred the Shred has just lost his knighthood, about time the same thing happened to Cur Ian Blair. |
#258
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.repair,uk.rec.audio,uk.tech.broadcast,uk.tech.digital-tv
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"John Williamson" wrote in message
... I've read that travelling on the left was started because the Roman roads were built to move soldiers, and if you want two groups of soldiers to pass in opposite driections, both carrying their shields on their left arms as shown in most pictures from the time, then if they pass right to right, you can make the road at least a foot narrower, as the shields can overhang the edge of the road, but would collide if the groups passed left to left. To be honest I doubt that. I would imagine that the "pass to the left" rule was started when Rome was still just a city state and those to whom it applied were mainly pedestrians within the city of Rome itself. Then it would have spread with the Empire as there would be no reason to change it. But, unless a Roman document entitled "reasons for passing to the left" ever comes to light we'll never know for sure :-) I've also read that Napoleon wanted to (a) confuse the opposition, and (b) prove that France was so civilised that travellers didn't need easy access to their swords to defend themselves from other travellers. Well again, unless Napoleon left documentary evidence of his reasoning his reasons will have died with him. I remember my Dad telling me that traffic in Vienna (but not the rest of Austria) still drove on the left right up to the Nazi occupation as it was going to be too expensive to convert the tram system. Adolf, of course, didn't care about the expense. David. |
#259
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.repair,uk.rec.audio,uk.tech.broadcast,uk.tech.digital-tv
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
Dave Liquorice wrote: On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote: The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies? Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it is. Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet? The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn anything. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
#260
Posted to uk.tech.broadcast,uk.tech.digital-tv,rec.audio.tech,uk.rec.audio,sci.electronics.repair
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
Ron wrote: On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote: Ron wrote: David Looser wrote: Jerry wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes. It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around with them. Waste money on spare parts, and not have cash for their drugs? Hell, some of them can't even afford to put enough gas in their beat up old van to get to the gig. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
#261
Posted to uk.tech.broadcast,uk.tech.digital-tv,rec.audio.tech,uk.rec.audio,sci.electronics.repair
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 30/01/2012 21:32, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 1/31/2012 8:14 AM, UnsteadyKen wrote: Trevor Wilson wrote... I would posit that, when driving an automobile with a manual gearbox, using one's right hand to control the wheel (assuming one is right handed), with the other hand using the gear change, is a better idea. I'm right handed and learnt to drive in Germany and found that using the right hand to manipulate the gear lever and handbrake felt natural and controlled. It seemed awkward when I first drove in the UK and it took a while to adjust. **I'm sure that would be the case. I learned to drive in Australia, using a 'three on the tree' and later a four speed, floor mounted manual gearbox. I now drive a five speed manual gearbox car. I've driven auto gearbox cars in the US and elsewhere. I reckon that trying to drive a manual gearbox in the US would be a difficult adjustment to make, though using an auto box was easy enough. I've driven manual gearbox cars on mainland Europe (LHD) and I learned in RHD England. No real problems - except the Renault electronic handbrake, which was censored. Perhaps a few thousand auto-box miles in the US first helped. Andy |
#262
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In message , Ron
writes: On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote: wrote in message ... On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote: wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? David. I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes. [] I think David was specifically talking about the BS1362 fuses found in BS1363 plugs. The special (and varied) fuses in the HT amp.s and similar are less likely to match anything to hand (i. e. another appliance's plug). -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf What would be unusual would be if there weren't any coincidences at all for several days in a row. Andy Roberts (UMRAt), 23rd. October 1998. |
#263
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In message , Ron
writes: [] Incidentally, I was at a presentation about Barbados the other day, and was told that it's not possible to hire a car in Barbados due to the previous amount of traffic accidents involving hire cars. They drive on the left, and the majority of tourists are American and can't get used to driving on that side. I myself prefer to drive down the middle You remind me of a comment made by Raymond Baxter on Top Gear, back when it was a motoring programme: he described some car as being "for the middle-of-the-road driver", without realising what he'd said. (No, it wasn't a Chieftain tank.) Ron -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf What would be unusual would be if there weren't any coincidences at all for several days in a row. Andy Roberts (UMRAt), 23rd. October 1998. |
#264
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"David Looser" wrote in message
... "Jerry" wrote The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel, unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts and any other round bar) - Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the right size hanging around the house? not many. For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit! How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard the purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the flex.) -- Max Demian |
#265
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote: On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote: The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies? Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it is. Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet? The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn anything. **** off Yank. Patronising *******s aren't you? |
#266
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In article ,
Max Demian wrote: How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard the purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the flex.) As indeed it is. If the device (like a radio) needs fuse protection within itself, it should have its own fuse. Exactly as it would have when fed from an unfused plug. I suspect if starting with a clean sheet now far more sophisticated circuit breakers etc are affordable, things might be different. -- *Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#267
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Max Demian" wrote
How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard the purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the flex.) Its enough to get the item a "fail", though my solution is to change the fuse, not withdraw the item from sale as I do with the real horrors. The longer that time passes since the law that required new items to have factory-fitted plugs the fewer examples of this I see. David. |
#268
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it is. Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet? The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn anything. Can't be arsed to read the regs of a forgien country, we have enough of our own. You are over there and presumably know them so how many breakers would be required for 38 double sockets in the US? -- Cheers Dave. |
#269
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
... In message , Ron writes: On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote: wrote in message ... On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote: wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? David. I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes. [] I think David was specifically talking about the BS1362 fuses found in BS1363 plugs. The special (and varied) fuses in the HT amp.s and similar are less likely to match anything to hand (i. e. another appliance's plug). -- Indeed I was. My comments were in the context of Jerry's assertion that screws, bolts, metal rod etc. are commonly found instead of fuses in BS1361 plugs. As you say equipment fuses are far more varied in terms of size, rating and rupture characteristic. They also tend to be a lot more expensive than the readily available BS1362 fuse. BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse had a threaded stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the plug to form the live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take on the same design brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we had gone with that design it would have been much harder to bypass the fuse! David. |
#270
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... : In article , : Jerry wrote: : Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if : you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead : that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp : fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could : run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off... : : Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know : nothing about. : Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking about your own failing all the time, if you really do think that you can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable... |
#271
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... snip : : You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so much more : difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring? : Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden, unless one is able to move one side of the existing ring to the new socket, as Pet would know if he had actually done any real world wiring jobs rather than simply quoting from the "Idiots Guide to the 17th edition" all the time... |
#272
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"recursor" wrote in message o.uk... : On 29/01/2012 20:48, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: : In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" : writes: : In article , : Jerry wrote: : Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if : you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead : that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp : fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could : run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off... : : Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know : nothing about. : : Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do not : have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement that mains leads (in : US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than absolutely necessary is : valid. Especially if they're of the sort that has a connector at both ends: if : there's a chance that they might be used for an appliance that draws more, then : it is unwise to use low-current wire/cable for them. : : (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I live in UK, : but still find ring mains odd.) : : Indeed, inherently unsafe some would say:- : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_ci..._whe n_in_use Indeed, indeed, and one can't help but notice the melee mouthed solutions some twit has added to that table of horror - and as for over heating of a radial circuit due to a loose connection, sorry twit but the same risks apply to rings - more so as they are more heavily loaded by design. |
#273
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
In article ,
David Looser wrote: BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse had a threaded stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the plug to form the live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take on the same design brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we had gone with that design it would have been much harder to bypass the fuse! One of the alternatives to the now standard 13 amp plug which was around from about the start of the final ring circuit. Made by D&S and used by some councils in their estates. They love to be different. ;-) Used by the BBC too from about the mid '50s for a couple of decades for the technical supply in studios etc. To prevent accidental use for none technical equipment. They were a horrible design. The fuse could work loose, and remain sticking out of the socket when the plug was removed. They also had a very poor cable clamp - merely a rubber grommet. -- *If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#274
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... : In article , : J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: : Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know : nothing about. : : Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do : not have great mechanical strength. : : Where will you find an appliance sold fitted with 1A flex and a 13 amp : plug? Perhaps not 1amp but 3amp is common. But heck were back to Plowman believing that he can run his 3Kw(+) electric cooker off such leads as commonly fitted to table lamps... : : Therefore Jerry's statement that : mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than : absolutely necessary is valid. : : All appliances now sold in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) are capable of : blowing a 13 amp fuse in event of a fault on the line chord. Assuming that the BS1363 plug is actually fitted with a fuse and not a twist of wire, a lump of metal bar or the shank of a screw or bolt... As I keep saying, and Plowman keeps refusing to address, the sort of bodge (by a end-user who might not understand the risks), that is not possible -or at least a dammed sight more difficult to do- with radial circuits were the lead is protected at the panel rather than plug. : : Especially if they're of the sort that : has a connector at both ends: if there's a chance that they might be : used for an appliance that draws more, then it is unwise to use : low-current wire/cable for them. : : Same with extensions etc sold in the UK. : : (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I : live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.) : : I can understand this, as practice is what matters. Diversity loading. : Not some theoretical maybe as Jerry insist on bringing up - even although : it has been explained to him time and time again. Err, what frecking cheek, Plowman is the one who keeps quoting the theory, living in that perfect world were idiots are banned. As for "Diversity" that in it's self is a bodge, it actually acknowledges that a ring can be overloaded and thus one has to guess to circuit loading the real world might bring and then if needs be increase the number of ring circuits. : : Final ring circuits are for domestic premises only. For workshops or : offices where you have known fixed loads you'd stick to radials. As you'd Wrong, ring circuits are acceptable in offices and workshops but the regs limit the total number of outlets on each ring. : do for fixed heating in a domestic scenario. : Not just for heating, the 17th edition [1] has likely increased the use of radials being used for freezers, fridges and other circuits/loads were it is unwise to allow unmonitored disconnections due to the RCD being tripped due to faults elsewhere or even 'non faults'... But then, unlike Plowman, I have always been in favour of supplying such appliances via dedicated radials, ho-hum, could the worm be turning, could people like Plowman be eating their own archived words come the 18th edition?! [1] for those outside the UK, that refers to the current UK wiring regs |
#275
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... : In article , : Jerry wrote: : The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a : little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel, : unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some : silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts : and any other round bar) : : Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more than 13 : amps from a socket anyway? I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do so, but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than actually defending your beloved ring circuits... : : Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably did just : that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed. I seem to remember that you used to make TV programmes... : Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry. : You really are a stupid troll, understanding the risks is not the same as practicing such risks, by your logic all child protection officers are child abusers! |
#276
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 20:47, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ron wrote: On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote: Ron wrote: David Looser wrote: Jerry wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes. It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around with them. Waste money on spare parts, and not have cash for their drugs? Hell, some of them can't even afford to put enough gas in their beat up old van to get to the gig. Ah, you're talking about the good old days... Ron |
#277
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 01/02/2012 09:04, David Looser wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver wrote in message ... In , Ron writes: On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote: wrote in message ... On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote: wrote Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil. Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you come across it? David. I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes. [] I think David was specifically talking about the BS1362 fuses found in BS1363 plugs. The special (and varied) fuses in the HT amp.s and similar are less likely to match anything to hand (i. e. another appliance's plug). -- Indeed I was. My comments were in the context of Jerry's assertion that screws, bolts, metal rod etc. are commonly found instead of fuses in BS1361 plugs. As you say equipment fuses are far more varied in terms of size, rating and rupture characteristic. They also tend to be a lot more expensive than the readily available BS1362 fuse. BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse had a threaded stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the plug to form the live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take on the same design brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we had gone with that design it would have been much harder to bypass the fuse! David. Yes, and it was bloody lethal! Ron |
#278
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
On 31/01/2012 22:45, Max Demian wrote:
"David wrote in message ... wrote The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel, unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts and any other round bar) - Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the right size hanging around the house? not many. For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit! How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard the purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the flex.) The UK '13amp' plug top accepts fuses rated to suit the appliance. 13 amps is the maximum. Ron |
#279
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"David Looser" wrote in message ... snip : [because I have never seen such faults] : I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal : rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to : nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal : that will fit! : As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits of copper wire. By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not) have never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be any risk of electrocution? |
#280
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Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems
"David Looser" wrote in message ... snip : Indeed I was. My comments were in the context of Jerry's assertion that : screws, bolts, metal rod etc. are commonly found instead of fuses in BS1361 Did I say commonly found, perhaps you would care to point out were I said so, IIRC I said it is possible. Going on to say that it is far more difficult for a like minded person to bridge out a breaker at the panel. |
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