"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: David Looser wrote:
: For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains
electrical item
: submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in
the village
: where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes
so damaged
: that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with
a brass
: fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended
using a bit
: of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs,
mis-wired
: plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly
used etc.
: But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything
other than a
: BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire
wrapped
: round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea
that
: people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into
plugs in any
: significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a
fuse from
: another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal
that will fit!
:
: Indeed. As I said, how many homes will have a plug in appliance
that draws
: more than 13 amps so needs the fuse shorted out?

Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more than
13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to troll,
it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm on a
Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being screamed
at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.

If such problems didn't occur why the need for 17th edition or
PAT testing (or at least certain elements)?... But hang on, as
the Champaign socialist Dave is, he probably think such regs are
in place as some form of job creation exercise, but then wasn't
that part of the thinking by "Two Jags" when he headed up the
introduction of the needless Part P to the UK building regs?...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not
suitable
: for final
: : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
: fundamentals
: : instead of making a fool of yourself.
: :
:
: Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is
breaking
: the regs!
:
: You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't understand
the basics.
:

So you keep saying Pet, so do tell us all the diffeance between a
BS1363 socket outlet and a, err, BS 1363 socket outlet?

But in reality it is you who is the one that doesn't seem to
understand the regs, you are the one who is obviously getting
mixed up between a permitted socket outlet on a radial circuit
that doesn't need to have 'additional protection' (RCDs) and
those sockets installed on a ring circuit that should have
'additional protection' (RCDs), apart from the protection at the
panel the hardware is the same (bar some required labelling that
can be added upon installation).

In article , David Looser
writes

BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused
plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to
the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse.

'Waco' or 'Wago' plug, I think. The problem was that the live pin-cum-
fuse tended to unscrew from the plug body and stay in the socket when
the plug was pulled. Not exactly safe...

The fuse had a threaded
stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the plug to form the
live pin.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ricalPanel.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8GE%29Breakerp
anelInnards.jpg


--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: You still can run more that three 3Kw electric fires off each
: ring circuit, thus how many of these sockets are for power
and
: how many are basically going to be over spec floor/table
lighting
: points[1]?
:
: All you have in your place is electric fires and table lamps?
Explains it
: all.
:

Only an idiot or a troll would take what I said in such a way,
anyone with a brain cell would have understood that I was
commenting on total loading of each ring circuit (of course you
needed to cut the context to make your trolling work).

Anyway, even if one does take what I said literally, it would be
very common should a central heating fault occur for just about
any family household to wish to use such a number and rating of
electric fire, especially in the sort of weather the UK had last
winter and with is the norm in Canada and the northern states of
the US. Easy enough to do with radial circuits, a pain (if not
impossible) to do so with ring circuits if the diversification
calculations have not taken such a need into account with the
ring circuit(s) were being installed.

But then perhaps it is Plowman who lives in the one room hovel,
and thus would never (ever) have any need for more than one
electric fire...

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into
the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva
fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Can't be arsed to read the regs of a forgien country, we have enough
of our own. You are over there and presumably know them so how many
breakers would be required for 38 double sockets in the US?


Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main other
then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could do on ANY
system?..

I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...
--
Tony Sayer

"Paul Ratcliffe" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell
wrote:


Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.


Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

**** off Yank. Patronising *******s aren't you?

As a Yank, I agree with you, Paul. Asking someone to read the US National
Electrical Code in order to answer their own casual questions is like asking
them to read the U.S. Tax code for the same purpose. If you understand even
the basics about either, you are most likely a highly trained professional.

In article ,
Ron wrote:
The UK '13amp' plug top accepts fuses rated to suit the appliance. 13
amps is the maximum.

Strictly speaking the fuse is only to protect the flex. If the appliance
itself needs to be protected it will have its own fuse or thermal circuit
breaker, etc. Ie the same as if fed from an unfused plug as in most
countries.

You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more uniform recently -
all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug regardless in
event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in a plug is beyond
most.

--
*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Jerry" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker
if
: you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
lead
: that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal
1amp
: fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one
could
: run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
:
: Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you
know
: nothing about.
:

Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking about
your own failing all the time, if you really do think that you
can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable...


You can do that, just not for long! ;-)

In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker
if
: you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
lead
: that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal
1amp
: fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one
could
: run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
:
: Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you
know
: nothing about.
:

Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking about
your own failing all the time, if you really do think that you
can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable...

Isn't that what you do, with a nail for the fuse?

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
: You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so
much more
: difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
:

Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden

Only in your twisted mind.

--
*Of course I'm against sin; I'm against anything that I'm too old to enjoy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...

snip
: [because I have never seen such faults]
: I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or
bits of metal
: rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much
easier to
: nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for
bits of metal
: that will fit!
:

As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts
or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits
of copper wire.

By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not) have
never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be any
risk of electrocution?

Well, you still appear to be here despite using all these weird and
wonderful things instead of fuses?

--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
: Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more
than 13
: amps from a socket anyway?

I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do so,
but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than
actually defending your beloved ring circuits...

It's a genuine question. What is it likely someone possesses which draws
more than 13 amps and comes with a 13 amp plug - necessitating replacing
the 13 amp fuse with a nail?
Perhaps the obvious one would be an extension lead with multiple socket
outlets. But then that can be overloaded with your favourite radials too.

:
: Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably
did just
: that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.

I seem to remember that you used to make TV programmes...

I'm retired. Why are you not working?

: Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.
:

You really are a stupid troll, understanding the risks is not the
same as practicing such risks, by your logic all child protection
officers are child abusers!

You just have a bee in your bonnet which simply isn't born out by
statistics after some 60 years of final ring circuits. It is an extremely
safe, versatile and economic design. Far better than the alternatives.
When used where it is designed for.

--
*Many people quit looking for work when they find a job *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more than
13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to troll,
it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm on a
Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being screamed
at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.

Most home in the UK will have many many devices fitted with 13 amp plugs,
and many of those also with 13 amp fuses.

It would take a true idiot to spend time cutting a nail or whatever to fit
rather than taking the fuse from one of those other devices.

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not
suitable
: for final
: : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
: fundamentals
: : instead of making a fool of yourself.
: :
:
: Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is
breaking
: the regs!
:
: You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't understand
the basics.
:

So you keep saying Pet, so do tell us all the diffeance between a
BS1363 socket outlet and a, err, BS 1363 socket outlet?

I was referring to the difference between a radial circuit and a spur.
Which obviously escapes you.

You can have unlimited sockets on a spur from a ring - provided that spur
is protected by an FCU.

--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike Tomlinson
wrote in Message id: :

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

On 01/02/2012 13:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
The UK '13amp' plug top accepts fuses rated to suit the appliance. 13
amps is the maximum.

Strictly speaking the fuse is only to protect the flex. If the appliance
itself needs to be protected it will have its own fuse or thermal circuit
breaker, etc. Ie the same as if fed from an unfused plug as in most
countries.

You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more uniform recently -
all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug regardless in
event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in a plug is beyond
most.

I suspect that's because the average person goes into a shop and buys
a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find it's
fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any better or just
not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits the plug
anyway.

It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable is almost
certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead short.
It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic appliances in the
UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
(hopefully)correct fuse.

Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity installations is
pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)

Ron

In article , JW
writes

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: : You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it
so
: much more
: : difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
: :
:
: Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
: necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden
:
: Only in your twisted mind.
:

Unless you care to explain what you mean?... After is one is not
going to add a spur one has to make a joint in the ring, now that
can either be crammed into the back of the existing socket,
cold-welded [1] (which is an abortion that should not be allowed
by the regs, certainly not in a domestic environment were
inspections might be few and fare between, but is) and then
buried or made using a some form of accessible -although hidden-
junction box. Of course and as I said, but was snipped by the
groups apparent new troll, one can move one half of the existing
ring to the new socket outlet -assuming that it will reach.

[1] AKA a properly crimped joint

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:42:30 +0000 Mike Tomlinson
wrote in Message id: :

In article , JW
writes

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

Why else would you care what it looks like?

Ron wrote:

On 31/01/2012 20:47, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

David Looser wrote:

Ron wrote:

David Looser wrote:

Jerry wrote

Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.

Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you
come across it?

I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired
group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm
fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around
with them.

Waste money on spare parts, and not have cash for their drugs? Hell,
some of them can't even afford to put enough gas in their beat up old
van to get to the gig.

Ah, you're talking about the good old days...


I used to repair guitar amps in the '60s & '70s. Some reeked of pot
o bad that they couldn't be brought into the shop until they were
sprayed down with ammonia.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK
fused plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly
similar to the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse
had a threaded stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the
plug to form the live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take
on the same design brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we
had gone with that design it would have been much harder to bypass the
fuse!

One of the alternatives to the now standard 13 amp plug which was around
from about the start of the final ring circuit. Made by D&S and used by
some councils in their estates. They love to be different. ;-)

Used by the BBC too from about the mid '50s for a couple of decades for
the technical supply in studios etc. To prevent accidental use for none
technical equipment.

They were a horrible design. The fuse could work loose, and remain
sticking out of the socket when the plug was removed. They also had a very
poor cable clamp - merely a rubber grommet.


You used that crap, then condemn the US system?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Jerry wrote:

As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts
or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits
of copper wire.


That thin foil covered paper from a pack of ciggarettes was common in
burnt up guitar amps.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:35:24 -0500, JW wrote:

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

Why else would you care what it looks like?

Because we don't like heavy industrial looking stuff in our homes,
even in the boiler or utility room.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more
than
: 13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to
troll,
: it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm
on a
: Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being
screamed
: at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
: what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
: course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.
:
: Most home in the UK will have many many devices fitted with 13
amp plugs,
: and many of those also with 13 amp fuses.

Yes as I said, but many of those devices will, or might need to,
be in use to. In any case most people do not act like Magpies or
Wombles, hence why one sees so many serviceable or otherwise
appliances and electronic goods at the local waste/recycling
dumps.

:
: It would take a true idiot to spend time cutting a nail or
whatever to fit
: rather than taking the fuse from one of those other devices.
:

How long would it take to, as others have pointed out, wrap such
a fuse in kitchen foil, a length of wire or paperclip etc...

Paul Ratcliffe wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.


Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

**** off Yank. Patronising *******s aren't you?


Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into
the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva
fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Can't be arsed to read the regs of a foreign country, we have enough
of our own.


Yet we often are pointed to some UK or European 'standard' and told
to read it and that's OK?


You are over there and presumably know them so how many
breakers would be required for 38 double sockets in the US?


There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves. Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

tony sayer wrote:

Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main other
then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could do on ANY
system?..

I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...


So, you investigate house fires for a living?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In article ,
Ron wrote:
You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more uniform recently
- all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug regardless
in event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in a plug is
beyond most.

I suspect that's because the average person goes into a shop and buys
a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find it's
fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any better or just
not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits the plug
anyway.

Surely everything by law is now supplied with a plug fitted?

It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable is almost
certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead short.
It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic appliances in the
UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
(hopefully)correct fuse.

Yup. Some seem to think the flex rating is that where it could only just
blow a fuse of that rating.

Jerry's favourite - 3 amp flex - has a cross sectional area of 0.5mm^.
Fusewire of the same cross section is rated at 30 amps...

Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity installations is
pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)

It's fun though.

--
*The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/02/2012 17:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink .com,
Michael A. wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

If you want to see some spectacular electrical fails, check out the
facebook group called 'Dodgy technicians'

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dodgytechnicians/

R

On 2/1/2012 12:52 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink .com,
Michael A. wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

And electric cookers?

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:52:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

d

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
:
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
: ...
: : In article ,
: : Jerry wrote:
: : Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp
breaker
: if
: : you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
: lead
: : that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have
internal
: 1amp
: : fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that
one
: could
: : run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
: :
: : Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things
you
: know
: : nothing about.
: :
:
: Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking
about
: your own failing all the time, if you really do think that
you
: can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable...
:
: Isn't that what you do, with a nail for the fuse?

Care to point out were I have said any such thing, of course not
as I have not and you know that I have not, just because someone
points out that a ring circuit allows an idiot to do something it
doesn't mean that they do it themselves - as I've said before, to
carry your 'logic' to a conclusion I take it that you also
believe that child protection experts and officers are child
abusers themselves?...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: : Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw
more
: than 13
: : amps from a socket anyway?
:
: I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do
so,
: but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than
: actually defending your beloved ring circuits...
:
: It's a genuine question. What is it likely someone possesses
which draws
: more than 13 amps and comes with a 13 amp plug - necessitating
replacing
: the 13 amp fuse with a nail?

Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is the
****ing point, just the non availability of a replacement
fuse -*as others have pointed out also*. You wholly refuse to
accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket. For the
same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper with
the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
protection.

: Perhaps the obvious one would be an extension lead with
multiple socket
: outlets. But then that can be overloaded with your favourite
radials too.
snip the rest of now usual trolling

No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not protected
at 30amps. A radial can only be overloaded up to the maximum load
of the lead (15amps) because the protection is at the panel,
unlike with ring circuits were the lead is -or should be-
protected by the 13amp fuse in the plug.

[1] for our NA friends, who might not be aware;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_S...acter_of_Frank

Hang on, FS was a BBC creation, IIRC a certain Mr D Plowman
worked for the BBC at the time, I wonder if Mr Allen was inspired
by an incompetent sound engineer at TVC... :~P

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
:
: "David Looser" wrote in message
: ...
:
: snip
: : [because I have never seen such faults]
: : I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts
or
: bits of metal
: : rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so*
much
: easier to
: : nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking
for
: bits of metal
: : that will fit!
: :
:
: As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of
bolts
: or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or
bits
: of copper wire.
:
: By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not)
have
: never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be
any
: risk of electrocution?
:
: Well, you still appear to be here despite using all these weird
and
: wonderful things instead of fuses?
:

As I've said, to take your (trolling) logic to it's conclusion
Plowman you must regard all child protection officers etc. as
child abusers themselves, otherwise how would they know of the
risks - news:alt.troll is that away Plowman ===

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
:
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
: ...
: : In article ,
: : Jerry wrote:
: : : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not
: suitable
: : for final
: : : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
: : fundamentals
: : : instead of making a fool of yourself.
: : :
: :
: : Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is
: breaking
: : the regs!
: :
: : You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't
understand
: the basics.
: :
:
: So you keep saying Pet, so do tell us all the diffeance
between a
: BS1363 socket outlet and a, err, BS 1363 socket outlet?
:
: I was referring to the difference between a radial circuit and
a spur.
: Which obviously escapes you.

There is no difference in the hardware, only the circuit
protection, as you would know if you had ever actually worked on
either or both radial and ring circuits, Plowman you are coming
over as someone like that idiot "Drivel" from the uk.d-i-y group,
someone who read the regs but has never done any practical.

:
: You can have unlimited sockets on a spur from a ring - provided
that spur
: is protected by an FCU.
:

Duh, then it is no longer a spur, and thus totally different to
what we are discussing!

"Ron" wrote in message
...

snip
: It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable
is almost
: certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead
short.
: It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic
appliances in the
: UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
: (hopefully)correct fuse.

But would it be enough is the plugs fuse had been bridged out and
thus fused at what ever the breaker is rated at on the panel (in
the case of UK ring circuits that is 30 amps)? Just because an
appliance comes pre-fitted with a plug and the correct fuse it
doesn't mean that it will remain so though out the life of the
device.

snip
: Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity
installations is
: pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)
:

At most Ron that is a side show, what Plowman has taken exception
to is the UK regs that allow for radial circuits, and the dangers
or otherwise of both UK spec radial and ring circuits.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Ron wrote:
: You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more
uniform recently
: - all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug
regardless
: in event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in
a plug is
: beyond most.
:
: I suspect that's because the average person goes into a
shop and buys
: a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find
it's
: fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any
better or just
: not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits
the plug
: anyway.
:
: Surely everything by law is now supplied with a plug fitted?

Whooossshhhhh.... Whilst there is a problem with incorrectly
wired plugs there is a bigger problem of plugs fitted with the
incorrectly rated fuse.

:
: It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable
is almost
: certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a
dead short.
: It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic
appliances in the
: UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
: (hopefully)correct fuse.
:
: Yup. Some seem to think the flex rating is that where it could
only just
: blow a fuse of that rating.
:
: Jerry's favourite - 3 amp flex - has a cross sectional area of
0.5mm^.
: Fusewire of the same cross section is rated at 30 amps...

So a flex fitted to a plug that has had its fuse bridged out will
likely start to melt if feed from a ring circuit should the
appliance become faulty (short circuit), is that what you have
finally grasped Plowman, BINGO! Also don't assume that all
properties are protected by RCD's etc, many are still protected
by slooooooow acting fuse wire.

The risk is, this 3 amp flex *you* keep talking about will behave
exactly like a fusible link-wire as it *will* be the weakest
link, now should that flex be trailing across the carpet or some
other flammable item, such as curtains or the odd magazine left
on the floor next to the reading lamp.... OTOH if fed from a
radial circuit protected at 15 amps (or better and more likely,
via 5 amp socket off the lighting circuit) it will be the breaker
at the panel and not the flex that will be the weak link.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

snip
: Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main
other
: then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could
do on ANY
: system?..
:
: I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...

I don't suppose you have ever come across a murder either, does
that mean that murders don't happen either?