"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.

Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 01:11, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike
wrote in Message :

In whill.co.uk, Dave
writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l1...erWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


It all looks a bit new, maybe the installation isn't finished yet?


How was he able to take the picture, if the building wasn't open to
the public?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:12:02 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:42:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

Er - how do you do that in the US? You don't have ring mains, so you
don't have two wires.


Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

That is adding a second circuit to a breaker - nothing to do with
putting the two ends of a single ring main into the same breaker
terminal. Obviously it would be illegal, but it isn't what we were
talking about.

So yes, I do think before posting. I thought you were stating that
putting two wire ends into one terminal was illegal. It isn't. Try
being a little clearer next time, will you?

d

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

What is wrong with having two circuits on the one breaker - provided the
breaker is correctly sized for the cable? In practice it's no different
from daisy chaining sockets.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling

--

Terry

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:56:00 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

d

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:12:02 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:42:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

Er - how do you do that in the US? You don't have ring mains, so you
don't have two wires.


Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

That is adding a second circuit to a breaker - nothing to do with
putting the two ends of a single ring main into the same breaker
terminal. Obviously it would be illegal, but it isn't what we were
talking about.

So yes, I do think before posting. I thought you were stating that
putting two wire ends into one terminal was illegal. It isn't. Try
being a little clearer next time, will you?


Maybe not where you are, but it illegal in the US as I've explained in
another post.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

What is wrong with having two circuits on the one breaker - provided the
breaker is correctly sized for the cable? In practice it's no different
from daisy chaining sockets.


That's your opinion, but the US NEC and insurance companies forbid
it. Two wires under one screw reduce the pressure by half if they are
in parallel. If the cross, they will deform and break.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?

Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.

The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.


Then it's a damn good thing you don't do electrical work in the US,
isn't it? What you can't see is that there are grooved slots in the
terminal that grip the wire, when the screw is tightened. 'Crimps' are
illegal, without certified tools with current inspection tags & proper
training. They are used in the few places with aluminum wire, to crip a
copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire, and every part of the process is
tightly controlled. Either hire the right work, or rewire the building
with copper.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 04/02/2012 14:27, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 01:11, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike
wrote in Message :

In whill.co.uk, Dave
writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l1...erWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


It all looks a bit new, maybe the installation isn't finished yet?


How was he able to take the picture, if the building wasn't open to
the public?



I didn't say the hotel wasn't open to the public, it might have been
open for a century or more. I did say that it -i.e. dis boxes and cables
- looked fairly new. and that`s not a cable tray at the top, it looks
like two strips of plywood. I imagine that there should/will be some
kind of box around it.
That's probably the dis-board for the whole floor. I'm sure that it
should be safely under lock and key if it's in a public room

Who knows...

R

Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling


Somewhat, but this is a typical example, with a warming tray on top.
The tray uses the waste heat from the oven.

http://homeappliances.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/convection-toaster-oven.jpg

A lot are just a small oven with temperature and timer controls.
There are also counter top pizza ovens.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:56:00 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.


Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them. There are millions of homes
and businesses using them 24/7 and you rarely have a problem unless
someone smashes one, or uses a damaged plug in one. The earlier type
had a shroud where the wire couldn't 'spew'. the screw had a grove
under the head to lull the wire tighter as it compressed the wire and
held a lot tighter than any crimp terminal.

The newer style has a groove with serration that goes through a hole
and is clamped between the screw head and the terminal. You strip 1/2"
insulation, shove it in till it bottoms out and tighten the screw. They
will not come loose, unless a total fool installs it.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 14:27, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 01:11, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike
wrote in Message :

In whill.co.uk, Dave
writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l1...erWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


It all looks a bit new, maybe the installation isn't finished yet?


How was he able to take the picture, if the building wasn't open to
the public?



I didn't say the hotel wasn't open to the public, it might have been
open for a century or more. I did say that it -i.e. dis boxes and cables
- looked fairly new. and that`s not a cable tray at the top, it looks
like two strips of plywood. I imagine that there should/will be some
kind of box around it.
That's probably the dis-board for the whole floor. I'm sure that it
should be safely under lock and key if it's in a public room


My point was that the lights were on. That isn't the case, prior to
inspection and getting a Certificate of Ocupancy in the US. If a US
building needed a major rewire like that it would be close until the
work was complete, and had all the paperwork is in order.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in
use. It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first
crimp on a suitable terminal.


Then it's a damn good thing you don't do electrical work in the US,
isn't it?

It is. I'd not be able to warrant my work with bodges like that.

What you can't see is that there are grooved slots in the
terminal that grip the wire, when the screw is tightened.

Makes little difference. The *only* reason to use that sort of connection
is cost - and that fitting certainly looks cheap.

'Crimps' are
illegal, without certified tools with current inspection tags & proper
training.

Goes without saying that any crimp must be made with the correct tool. But
of course an additional connection is a bad thing except where essential.
And I'd say it was essential with those fittings.

They are used in the few places with aluminum wire, to crip a
copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire, and every part of the process is
tightly controlled. Either hire the right work, or rewire the building
with copper.

Aluminium cable was tried here briefly many years ago - but I've never
come across it. Only used by those who put money before safety and
longevity.

--
*Procrastinate now

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.


Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them.

Oh, but *I* have. Did some work on an American Optical installation that
used these some time ago - and just assumed the design had been changed
for something better by now.

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Arny Krueger wrote:

When these places were wired (1910-1935), underground wiring was
prohibitively expensive. Underground became the rule in the 70's.

In those days having electricty was a big deal. It showed you were prosperous
and could afford the price of wiring, the cost of the things to run and the
cost of running them.

As part of the plan to recover from "the great depression", the US built
several large hydroelectric generating stations (and impressive dams to
provide the water), ran lots of lines and "electrified" most of rural
America (USA).

Pictures of the 1939 World's Fair GE pavlilion:

http://books.google.co.il/books?id=JKH-lgYU2dMC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=1939+worlds+fair+ge+m ural&source=bl&ots=shpbj0aaCU&sig=RUEjwfTbkVBdpVt8 N3gkYRS1ppI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=02stT5qiCaKq0QW5sOSsCA&r edir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in
use. It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first
crimp on a suitable terminal.

Then it's a damn good thing you don't do electrical work in the US,
isn't it?

It is. I'd not be able to warrant my work with bodges like that.

What you can't see is that there are grooved slots in the
terminal that grip the wire, when the screw is tightened.

Makes little difference. The *only* reason to use that sort of connection
is cost - and that fitting certainly looks cheap.

'Crimps' are
illegal, without certified tools with current inspection tags & proper
training.

Goes without saying that any crimp must be made with the correct tool. But
of course an additional connection is a bad thing except where essential.
And I'd say it was essential with those fittings.

They are used in the few places with aluminum wire, to crip a
copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire, and every part of the process is
tightly controlled. Either hire the right work, or rewire the building
with copper.

Aluminium cable was tried here briefly many years ago - but I've never
come across it. Only used by those who put money before safety and
longevity.


No one can say you aren't opinionated. Or right.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

When these places were wired (1910-1935), underground wiring was
prohibitively expensive. Underground became the rule in the 70's.

In those days having electricty was a big deal. It showed you were prosperous
and could afford the price of wiring, the cost of the things to run and the
cost of running them.

As part of the plan to recover from "the great depression", the US built
several large hydroelectric generating stations (and impressive dams to
provide the water), ran lots of lines and "electrified" most of rural
America (USA).


They also allowed outdated factories to change from water wheels
driving overhead shafts, and whale oil lights. Electricity on farms
improved efficiency and safety.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them.

Oh, but *I* have. Did some work on an American Optical installation that
used these some time ago - and just assumed the design had been changed
for something better by now.


Why change it? They have a damn good safety record, and there are over
a billion in use. Just because someone outside the US dislikes them is
no reason to change. There are multiple grades, from what I linked, to
medical grade with extreme low leakage. There are commercial grade,
intended for heavy usage. Think about it. Most plugs are rarely
inserted or removed, and the standard duty is fine. Some items are only
plugged in one time, and used till the item is worn out. From what I've
seen of European connectors, I wouldn't use one anywhere. We had to use
them in the Earth Stations we built for the European Space Agency. We
had them ship us what they wanted used, then had to fight with it to
find enough usable hardware. The outlets we used on US turnkey were
steel Wiremold outlet strips. They sent us pairs of sockets that had to
be wired and mounted inside the racks. It looked like the crap imported
from China for flea markets. No inspect for US use, and the connectors
are incompatible with the US market. Some had a tiny expanded scale 250
voltmeter that displayed 200 to 250 volts. They wondered why only
foreign tourist were buying the crap.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Arny Krueger wrote:

250 feet of 10/3 romex runs about $200. I wonder why people aren't
importing wire from the UK - your prices are pretty cheap!

It's not UL approved, so insurance companies wouldn't insure
buildings where it was used. If a building inspector is honest, it will
fail inspection and on CoO will be issued. If that happens, the builder
can't transfer ownership, and has to do repairs with approve materials,
or pay off the construction loans and eat the loss.

I was thinking that some business would do the importing and take care of
the UL approvals. Seems like there is quite a bit of margin to work with.

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling


A toaster oven has no hot plates. It is just an oven and has no stove
elements.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

When these places were wired (1910-1935), underground wiring was
prohibitively expensive. Underground became the rule in the 70's.

In those days having electricty was a big deal. It showed you were
prosperous
and could afford the price of wiring, the cost of the things to run and
the
cost of running them.

As part of the plan to recover from "the great depression", the US built
several large hydroelectric generating stations (and impressive dams to
provide the water), ran lots of lines and "electrified" most of rural
America (USA).

Most of that happened down south and is called the TVA (Tennessee Valley
Authority). The TVA turned out to be a very strategic resource - it
provided massive amounts of power to the Oak Ridge uranium refining
facility.

The Hoover Dam in Nevada and the Grand Coulee dam in Washington state were
also built at about the same time. The Grand Coulee Dam provided massive
amounts of electric power to the Hanford plutonium refining facility.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for
in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

There is also an internal terminal that clamps the wire from both sides.

I have to admit that I've disassembled a lot of 30-80 year old screw
terminals of the kind you decry, and they are still very solid. Generally,
there is a strip of very clean copper where the screw head and terminal
plate met the bare wire. I think that the large gauge wire and relatively
immobile wiring has something to do with it.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Arny Krueger wrote:

250 feet of 10/3 romex runs about $200. I wonder why people aren't
importing wire from the UK - your prices are pretty cheap!

It's not UL approved, so insurance companies wouldn't insure
buildings where it was used. If a building inspector is honest, it will
fail inspection and on CoO will be issued. If that happens, the builder
can't transfer ownership, and has to do repairs with approve materials,
or pay off the construction loans and eat the loss.

I was thinking that some business would do the importing and take care of
the UL approvals. Seems like there is quite a bit of margin to work with.


It would also take a lot of liability insurance. By the time you pay
shipping, duty, and all other overhead expenses most if not all of that
profit is long gone.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In article ,
says...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling


A toaster oven has no hot plates. It is just an oven and has no stove
elements.

That is because you use them as an add-on facility whilst the Baby
Belling is designed as a lone unit, primarily for student bed sits,
small flats, etc., that don't have room for a full size cooker. I have
seen them in the staff refreshment area of small businesses, although it
would be more common to find a microwave these days.

--

Terry

In article ,
says...

Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling


Somewhat, but this is a typical example, with a warming tray on top.
The tray uses the waste heat from the oven.

http://homeappliances.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/convection-toaster-oven.jpg


If you took away the hot plates on the Belling you would end up with
something similar. In the UK, though, though tend to used as the only
means of cooking when space is very limited - thus the hot plate
facilities are required.

--

Terry

On Saturday, February 4th, 2012, at 15:32:05h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

Most of that happened down south and is called the TVA (Tennessee Valley
Authority). The TVA turned out to be a very strategic resource - it
provided massive amounts of power to the Oak Ridge uranium refining
facility.

The Hoover Dam in Nevada and the Grand Coulee dam in Washington state
were also built at about the same time. The Grand Coulee Dam provided
massive amounts of electric power to the Hanford plutonium refining
facility.

If the Tea Party had been running the country back then,
these "socialist" projects would never have happened.

And Ron Paul supporters are all for closing down the TVA.

http://www.dailypaul.COM/127677/abolish-these-federal-departments-agencies-programs-grants-bureaus-commissions-administrations-offices-foundations-etc

One wonders if these people ever think about the consequences of what
they are demanding ...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:56:00 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for
in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides.

No, the place where you loop the wires is recessed, and the plastic body
keeps the wire captive. You are rushing to judgement based on some very
incomplete evidence. 12-14 guage solid copper also simply likes to retain
the loop you bend into it.

These are slightly better pictures:

http://www.handymanhowto.com/wp-cont...43-443x600.jpg

http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH..._OUTLET_03.jpg

http://www.aurorahomeinspection.info...le-300x227.jpg

The third one shows the back of the outlet and the holes for insertnig wire
ends to be clamped.

Not that I am particularly proud of the design - it is just that the fault
you describe does not seem to materialize in actual use by professionals.
There are many other faults.

As I mention in another post, there is also an internal clamp.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them.

Oh, but *I* have. Did some work on an American Optical installation that
used these some time ago - and just assumed the design had been changed
for something better by now.


Why change it? They have a damn good safety record, and there are over
a billion in use. Just because someone outside the US dislikes them is
no reason to change.


They are used in the following countries:

American Samoa, Anguilla, Antigua, Aruba, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados,
Bermuda, Bolivia, Brazil, Cambodia, Canada, Cayman Islands, China (without
holes in blades and slightly shorter blades), Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba,
Ecuador, El Salvador, Guam, Guatemala, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica,
Japan, Laos, Lebanon, Liberia, Maldives, Mexico, Micronesia, Montserrat,
Netherlands Antilles, Nicaragua, Niger, Okinawa, Panama, Peru, Philippines,
Puerto Rico, St. Vincent, Saudi Arabia, Tahiti, Taiwan, Thailand, United
States, Venezuela, Vietnam, Virgin Islands (U.S.& British), Yemen.

The UK style outlet is used in the following countries:

Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Cameroon, Channel Islands,
China, Cyprus, Dominica, El Salvador, Gambia, Ghana, Gibraltar, Grenada,
Guatemala, Guyana, Hong Kong, Iraq, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jordan, Kenya,
Kuwait, Lebanon, Macau, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius,
Myanmar, Nigeria, Oman, Qatar, St. Kitts-Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent,
Saudi Arabia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Tanzania, Uganda, United
Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Vietnam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe

The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US outlet.
;-)

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote

From what I've
seen of European connectors, I wouldn't use one anywhere. We had to use
them in the Earth Stations we built for the European Space Agency. We
had them ship us what they wanted used, then had to fight with it to
find enough usable hardware. The outlets we used on US turnkey were
steel Wiremold outlet strips. They sent us pairs of sockets that had to
be wired and mounted inside the racks. It looked like the crap imported
from China for flea markets. No inspect for US use, and the connectors
are incompatible with the US market. Some had a tiny expanded scale 250
voltmeter that displayed 200 to 250 volts. They wondered why only
foreign tourist were buying the crap.


This all seems as pointless as Dave's slagging-off of US sockets. But some
of what you've written makes little sense. Why should items intended for ESA
earth stations need to be inspected for US use? And of course they are
incompatible with the US market, they are meant to be compatible with a
European standard, wasn't that why the ESA specified them? I'm also confused
by your reference to "foreign tourists", since when have tourists bought
earth stations? And finally since when have socket outlets included
voltmeters?

David.

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling


A toaster oven has no hot plates. It is just an oven and has no stove
elements.

That is because you use them as an add-on facility whilst the Baby
Belling is designed as a lone unit, primarily for student bed sits,
small flats, etc., that don't have room for a full size cooker. I have
seen them in the staff refreshment area of small businesses, although it
would be more common to find a microwave these days.

I look at it functionally - it is quite possible to eat reasonably well with
prepared foods that require only heating in an oven. It is not clear
whether it is better for the oven to use conventional heating elements or
microwaves. A toaster oven plus a hot water pot can be far less costly
although the gap is narrowing. If you are into fried foods, reheating them
in a toaster oven can yield pretty tasty results while the microwave will
produce a soggy mess.

"J G Miller" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, February 4th, 2012, at 15:32:05h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

Most of that happened down south and is called the TVA (Tennessee Valley
Authority). The TVA turned out to be a very strategic resource - it
provided massive amounts of power to the Oak Ridge uranium refining
facility.

The Hoover Dam in Nevada and the Grand Coulee dam in Washington state
were also built at about the same time. The Grand Coulee Dam provided
massive amounts of electric power to the Hanford plutonium refining
facility.

If the Tea Party had been running the country back then,
these "socialist" projects would never have happened.

Seems like. Could have been a disaster.

And Ron Paul supporters are all for closing down the TVA.

http://www.dailypaul.COM/127677/abolish-these-federal-departments-agencies-programs-grants-bureaus-commissions-administrations-offices-foundations-etc

One wonders if these people ever think about the consequences of what
they are demanding ...

Privatizing the TVA need not be so disruptive.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:
[]
I use Lidl for some things. Not fresh vegetables, though. Or meat. Dairy
products are good value as are most other non fresh things.
Their tools in general are excellent - far better than budget stuff
elsewhere. But are only ever on special offer so you need to look out for
them. Don't have an Aldi anywhere close.

They'll email you in advance with the details of what they're going to
have in - twice a week - if you sign up for their newsletter. Usually
shows what they'll have in in two or three days - and usually they won't
sell the items, even if they have them in stock, before the stated date.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to stop thinking. - Dr. Gregory
House (TV character), quoted in Radio Times 1-7/3/2008

Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling


Somewhat, but this is a typical example, with a warming tray on top.
The tray uses the waste heat from the oven.

http://homeappliances.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/convection-toaster-oven.jpg


If you took away the hot plates on the Belling you would end up with
something similar. In the UK, though, though tend to used as the only
means of cooking when space is very limited - thus the hot plate
facilities are required.


There are small combo units sold for offices that are a small
refrigerator and cooktop. Sometimes called a 'Kitchenette'.

http://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Compact+Kitchens/N~36 shows some
examples.



--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them.

Oh, but *I* have. Did some work on an American Optical installation that
used these some time ago - and just assumed the design had been changed
for something better by now.


Why change it? They have a damn good safety record, and there are over
a billion in use. Just because someone outside the US dislikes them is
no reason to change.

They are used in the following countries:

American Samoa, Anguilla, Antigua, Aruba, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados,
Bermuda, Bolivia, Brazil, Cambodia, Canada, Cayman Islands, China (without
holes in blades and slightly shorter blades), Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba,
Ecuador, El Salvador, Guam, Guatemala, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica,
Japan, Laos, Lebanon, Liberia, Maldives, Mexico, Micronesia, Montserrat,
Netherlands Antilles, Nicaragua, Niger, Okinawa, Panama, Peru, Philippines,
Puerto Rico, St. Vincent, Saudi Arabia, Tahiti, Taiwan, Thailand, United
States, Venezuela, Vietnam, Virgin Islands (U.S.& British), Yemen.

The UK style outlet is used in the following countries:

Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Cameroon, Channel Islands,
China, Cyprus, Dominica, El Salvador, Gambia, Ghana, Gibraltar, Grenada,
Guatemala, Guyana, Hong Kong, Iraq, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jordan, Kenya,
Kuwait, Lebanon, Macau, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius,
Myanmar, Nigeria, Oman, Qatar, St. Kitts-Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent,
Saudi Arabia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Tanzania, Uganda, United
Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Vietnam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe

The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US outlet.
;-)


What is the total number of installed outlets, rather than the total
number of countries?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

David Looser wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote

From what I've
seen of European connectors, I wouldn't use one anywhere. We had to use
them in the Earth Stations we built for the European Space Agency. We
had them ship us what they wanted used, then had to fight with it to
find enough usable hardware. The outlets we used on US turnkey were
steel Wiremold outlet strips. They sent us pairs of sockets that had to
be wired and mounted inside the racks. It looked like the crap imported
from China for flea markets. No inspect for US use, and the connectors
are incompatible with the US market. Some had a tiny expanded scale 250
voltmeter that displayed 200 to 250 volts. They wondered why only
foreign tourist were buying the crap.


This all seems as pointless as Dave's slagging-off of US sockets. But some
of what you've written makes little sense. Why should items intended for ESA
earth stations need to be inspected for US use?


Where did I say that they were? All the hardware met US standards
before it was installed in racks for shipment. One system was installed
into a European miltary style trailer, and had to have the wiring
complete and ready to plug into the mobile generator that was to be
hauled behind the communications system. Both were to be hauled by a
classic Duce& a half, or similar sized vehicle when a launch was
scheduled. The other system was pre cabled so their techs uncrated the
full racks on site, plugged the labed harneses to the racks, and had
their electricain connect it to the facility's power system. that's the
entire concept of a 'Turnkey Installation' A couple hours after it was
delivered, it was fully operational, instead of them spend six months or
more wireing and testing, then calibrating the system.


And of course they are incompatible with the US market, they are meant
meant to be compatible with a European standard, wasn't that why the
ESA specified them?


Isn't that obvious? They wanted what they are used to using.
Wouldn't you? Just like the Ku band system we built for the ISS. Based
on a Microdyne 700 series Telemetry system, but shipped with 48 VDC
power supplies instead of the standard 120/240 volt AC supplies. A
stanard AC plug for any country would be useless.


I'm also confused by your reference to "foreign tourists", since when have
tourists bought earth stations?


When have you ever seen brand new, custom built US $8,000,000 earth
stations for sale at a flea market? You are in such a hurry to find
fault that you don't bother to consider the meanuing of the text.
'Foreign tourists' here on vacation were buying them in Florida and
taking them to Europe becasue they were a lot cheaper than similar items
in the UK.


And finally since when have socket outlets included voltmeters?


Since China sold them. I could probably go to a flea market annd
take a picture of one, if you need convinced that they exist. Even
then, you would probably claim they were fakes.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

David Looser wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote

Why should items intended for ESA
earth stations need to be inspected for US use?


Where did I say that they were?

Why mention that they weren't inspected for US use if they didn't need to
be?

And of course they are incompatible with the US market, they are meant
meant to be compatible with a European standard, wasn't that why the
ESA specified them?


Isn't that obvious? They wanted what they are used to using.

Well I thought it was obvious, why I why I queried the fact that you
apparently thought otherwise

I'm also confused by your reference to "foreign tourists", since when
have
tourists bought earth stations?


When have you ever seen brand new, custom built US $8,000,000 earth
stations for sale at a flea market? You are in such a hurry to find
fault that you don't bother to consider the meaning of the text.

I wasn't in a "hurry" to find fault at all. I actually spent some time
reading your post trying to decipher the meaning. But since what you wrote
was so vague and confused I asked for clarification of what you actually
meant.

'Foreign tourists' here on vacation were buying them in Florida and
taking them to Europe because they were a lot cheaper than similar items
in the UK.

You are still being vague. What foreign tourists, and what were they buying?

And finally since when have socket outlets included voltmeters?


Since China sold them.

Well OK, I've never seen one. I doubt that they conform to UK standards.

I could probably go to a flea market and
take a picture of one, if you need convinced that they exist. Even
then, you would probably claim they were fakes.

You appear to think that I am deliberately finding fault with your post. I'm
not, I'm simply asking for clarification of the meaning of your vague and
confused post.

David.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Oh, but *I* have. Did some work on an American Optical installation that
used these some time ago - and just assumed the design had been changed
for something better by now.


Why change it? They have a damn good safety record, and there are over
a billion in use. Just because someone outside the US dislikes them is
no reason to change. There are multiple grades, from what I linked, to
medical grade with extreme low leakage. There are commercial grade,
intended for heavy usage. Think about it. Most plugs are rarely
inserted or removed, and the standard duty is fine.

The fact there are multiple grades says much. Better to use an entirely
different connector for arduous duty. Then there is no danger of mixing
them up.

Some items are only
plugged in one time, and used till the item is worn out. From what I've
seen of European connectors, I wouldn't use one anywhere. We had to use
them in the Earth Stations we built for the European Space Agency. We
had them ship us what they wanted used, then had to fight with it to
find enough usable hardware. The outlets we used on US turnkey were
steel Wiremold outlet strips. They sent us pairs of sockets that had to
be wired and mounted inside the racks. It looked like the crap imported
from China for flea markets. No inspect for US use, and the connectors
are incompatible with the US market. Some had a tiny expanded scale 250
voltmeter that displayed 200 to 250 volts. They wondered why only
foreign tourist were buying the crap.

I'd say exactly the same of that fitting you pictured. It looks like it
would be impossible to make something cheaper or nastier.

--
*Why is it that to stop Windows 95, you have to click on "Start"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
The UK outlet is actually slightly less well-accepted than the US
outlet.

You could say the same about analogue TV. Doesn't make 525/60 NTSC better
than 625/50 PAL, though. ;-)

--
*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.