In article ,
Jerry wrote:
: You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
distribution
: systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times
worse than
: here.
:

But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits (opposed to
a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and conductor)
used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then just
about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
down or been shut down on H&S grounds!

Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice using the
cheapest possible materials on components where they are available. And
having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of extension
leads or bodged extra sockets.

There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two down
sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the breaker
panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
still, to this day, permitted.

No **** Sherlock.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article
:
,
: wrote:
: You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK.
It is many
: times worse than here.
:
: In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of
incompetent
: DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.
:
:
: One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and
banned
: over here many many years ago.
:

Whilst wire nuts are more susceptible, the same basic fault that
wire nuts suffer can beset any mechanical joints, one of the
reasons why mechanical joints have to remain accessible. A
correctly made joint doesn't normally cause a problem, an
incorrectly made screw terminal can exhibit all the same dangers
as poorly made wire nut joint - heat and arcing.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: : You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: distribution
: : systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many
times
: worse than
: : here.
: :
:
: But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits
(opposed to
: a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and
conductor)
: used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
: hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then
just
: about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
: venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
: down or been shut down on H&S grounds!
:
: Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice
using the
: cheapest possible materials on components where they are
available. And

That might be how you and your ilk would bodge such
installations, the rest of us would budget for the higher cost!
Anyway, when you say "cheapest" what do you actually mean, any
component sold in the UK has to meet the minimum BS (or what
ever) standard, IME cheapest means basic.

: having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of
extension
: leads or bodged extra sockets.

Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits first
started being used in the UK, houses were being built with the
same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often does)
find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor but
not circuit protection. Or, and this is even more dangerous,
incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial circuits
with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the more
usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.

:
: There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
down
: sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
breaker
: panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
: attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
: still, to this day, permitted.
:
: No **** Sherlock.
:

So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial circuits
are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
: having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of
extension
: leads or bodged extra sockets.

Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits first
started being used in the UK, houses were being built with the
same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often does)
find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor but
not circuit protection.

Dear me. You blame a final ring circuit for its design when the problems
you mention are cause by idiots modifying it *from* a ring circuit?
It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things work
should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any work needed.

Or, and this is even more dangerous,
incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial circuits
with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the more
usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.

See above. If this is how you do wiring, find a less dangerous hobby.

:
: There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
down
: sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
breaker
: panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
: attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
: still, to this day, permitted.
:
: No **** Sherlock.
:

So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial circuits
are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?

You're making assumptions - yet again.

--
*Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: : having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the
use of
: extension
: : leads or bodged extra sockets.
:
: Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits
first
: started being used in the UK, houses were being built with
the
: same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
: from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
: exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
: rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often
does)
: find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor
but
: not circuit protection.
:
: Dear me. You blame a final ring circuit for its design when the
problems
: you mention are cause by idiots modifying it *from* a ring
circuit?

In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once again
Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with the
panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance lead,
the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
circuits.

: It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things
work
: should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
work needed.

Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr Plowman
and pay someone to do any electrical work!

:
: Or, and this is even more dangerous,
: incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial
circuits
: with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the
more
: usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.
:
: See above. If this is how you do wiring, find a less dangerous
hobby.

No it most certainly is not how I do wiring (and I doubt that
anyone would intentionally do so), but I'm not sure you wouldn't,
as it is clear that whilst you can read and work to the
regulations you do not understand the whys and wherefores behind
them.

Ring circuits were a fudge of the then electrical standards,
brought about by the need to lower the cost -of post war-
housing, they are most certainly not "the best thing since sliced
bread", with a radial if the circuit becomes split then anything
down-stream of the split stops working or becomes
intermittent -which thus prompts investigation, if there is a
split in a ring circuit nothing is noticed until either an
electrical overload of the conductors/connectors -thus possible
fire- occurs or the integrity of the circuit is tested - in most
houses only luck decides which happens first.

:
: :
: : There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
: down
: : sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
: breaker
: : panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in
an
: : attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits
are
: : still, to this day, permitted.
: :
: : No **** Sherlock.
: :
:
: So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial
circuits
: are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?
:
: You're making assumptions - yet again.
:

Not at all, although you exhibit signs that you either have
(premature) senile debenture or you don't actually bother to read
(and understand) what you are replying to;

["rrusston" said]

"It's the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy
sockets the Brits use I think are ridiculous."

[Plowman replied]

"You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified
house distribution systems in the US, before criticising
the UK. It is many times worse than here."

Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once again
Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with the
panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance lead,
the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
circuits.

Wire nuts were banned in the UK for very good reasons. Perhaps you'd
explain why that ban was/is wrong?

And you can very easily overload 'an appliance lead' on a radial circuit,
unless it is rated at the same as the radial protection. Which it almost
never will be. That is one great benefit of the UK final ring circuit -
appliance leads are fused at the plug, and must be capable of blowing that
13 amp fuse under fault conditions. Of course idiots who play with
electricity without understanding the basics can cause havoc. You've
proved that one.

: It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things
work
: should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
work needed.

Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr Plowman
and pay someone to do any electrical work!

But I understand the basics. And am capable of following the regs. They
can be bought in nice large print with coloured pictures for those who
have difficulty reading.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable for final
ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some fundamentals
instead of making a fool of yourself.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article
,
wrote:
and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?


Because it's so simple to use in a place where we don't need a
calculator for simple math.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article
:
,
: wrote:
: You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK.
It is many
: times worse than here.
:
: In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of
incompetent
: DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.
:
:
: One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and
banned
: over here many many years ago.
:

Whilst wire nuts are more susceptible, the same basic fault that
wire nuts suffer can beset any mechanical joints, one of the
reasons why mechanical joints have to remain accessible. A
correctly made joint doesn't normally cause a problem, an
incorrectly made screw terminal can exhibit all the same dangers
as poorly made wire nut joint - heat and arcing.


I've seen more burned screws than wire nuts.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice using the
cheapest possible materials on components where they are available. And
having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of extension
leads or bodged extra sockets.


The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:
In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable for final
ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some fundamentals
instead of making a fool of yourself.

As an outsider viewing this argument with interest (albeit one who grew
up in Germany, with _properly designed and specified_ non-ring circuits,
so find them odd), I'm curious what the word "final" means here, as it
seems to be being deliberately left in in a way that suggests it _is_
significant.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

So? You used four rings - thus nearly 10 to a ring. Why wouldn't someone
doing it with radials not put several on each radial?

[And how about a few crossply (-:?]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

On Jan 28, 5:05*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* wrote:

and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

If you're a machinist or a shooter you use decimal inches. Works
fine.

Either the imperial or metric system works fine. Americans have used
metric in science and medicine since the War of Northern Aggression or
so. What doesn't work fine is the commonly used Metric standard
threads used on nuts and bolts. Actually-the old Whitworth thread form
was most superior. But UNC and UNF are BIG improvements on Metric.

In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.

Nautical miles and knots (nm/hr) are still the appropriate measure of
distance and speed at sea universally.

L/s/d (I don't have the Brit pound key and don't remember the ANSI
sequence) currency worked okay for the Brits, but visitors from no
other country easily made change. And of course the Anglosphere
(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
than London!

Wire nuts are a safe method of connecting wires if they are correctly
specified for wire gauge and used only once as specified. They were
introduced as a much safer alternative to soldering, because of the
fire danger in using blowtorches as would then have been required.

On 28/01/2012 20:05, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[...] I'm curious what the word "final" means here, as it seems to be
being deliberately left in in a way that suggests it _is_
significant.

A final circuit is simply one that directly feeds 'points of
utilisation' - lights, socket-outlets, etc. A typical domestic
installation with a single consumer unit only has final circuits.

OTOH an installation in a larger building is likely to have a number of
intermediate distribution boards fed from the main intake via
*distribution circuits*. Said boards then feed final circuits or further
levels of sub-distribution (or both) . Distribution circuits which feed
separate (out)buildings from a common supply intake are known as submains.

HTH
--
Andy

On Saturday, January 28th, 2012, at 15:22:08h -0800, R Russton wrote:

Boston is FAR more important to them than London!

More specifically South Boston where a lot of fund raising
was done by NORAID.

http://www.highbeam.COM/doc/1P2-8125863.html

In message
,
writes:
[]
In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.

Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
expression.
[]
(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The

It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.

Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
than London!

I was about to agree with you, then I remembered that they have a land
border with the UK, and not with Boston. And they're more likely to
bring their car to England, too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:38:46 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 4, 5:27*am, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...



In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes:

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
school there in the late 50s.

Nearby Ilford still had 200V DC, a hangover from when Ilford town
council generated 600V DC for its tramways and obviously found it
convenient to stick to DC for domestic supplies.

When it was converted to 240V AC I do not know but there was no evidence
of anything remotely DC connected when I moved there in the early 70s.

In the US there were 25 Hz buildings and even houses as late as the
early 70s and a few DC apartment and office buildings in New York
later than that. I stayed at a swank highrise in Chicago in the early
70s that was AC by then but was originally DC and there was evidence
of it in the labels tacked in the fuse box.

We also had a little 50 Hz before the war.

I've always wanted to do a full study of DC and odd frequency power
historically in the US but the research is not helped by the
electrical utilities. I think they are ashamed of it.

Not exactly ashamed, but embarrassed by how easy adaptation used to be.

?-)

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message
,
writes:
[]
In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.

Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
expression.

We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.

(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The

It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.


UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
drivers.

Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
than London!

I was about to agree with you, then I remembered that they have a land
border with the UK, and not with Boston. And they're more likely to
bring their car to England, too.

There are more Irish living in London than in Dublin. For most Irish
people England is a second home - particularly since their economy
went belly-up. And of course most Irish people couldn't give a toss
about the IRA and their pathetic games.

d

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message
,
writes:
[]
In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.
Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
expression.

We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.

(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.


UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
drivers.

Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.

Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
which drive on which side.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson wrote:
Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to
the ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.

Not actually true - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_...t-hand_traffic

In Africa, interestingly, some countries which used to drive on the left -
most notably Nigeria - switched to the right because they were surrounded by
other countries which drove on the right. In other parts of Africa, the
opposite happened.

Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of
countries which drive on which side.

Not actually true - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_...t-hand_traffic

Driving on the left is a minority sport - but not so minority as many people
who drive on the right imagine. Three members of the E.U. drive on the left,
and one other made the switch from left to right within living memory.

André Coutanche

In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

Yes, people used to be taught things like spelling and multiplication
tables in school. I used to get my pocket money in shillings and pence,
occasionally shops would give change that would include farthings, and I
don't recall having any problems with this.

It was a world in which spellcheckers and calculators hadn't been
invented yet, and in their spare time, brainrotting electronic gadgets
like MP3 players and video game consoles not having been invented yet,
people would sometimes read books. We grew up in it and got used to it.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once
again
: Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with
the
: panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance
lead,
: the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
: circuits.
:
: Wire nuts were banned in the UK for very good reasons. Perhaps
you'd
: explain why that ban was/is wrong?

Did I say that, no. My point was and is that the world isn't
perfect, hence wire nuts are banned, hence why other mechanical
joints have to remain accessible, and why I consider ring
circuits a bodge at best.

:
: And you can very easily overload 'an appliance lead' on a
radial circuit,
: unless it is rated at the same as the radial protection. Which
it almost
: never will be.

Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...

That is one great benefit of the UK final ring circuit -
: appliance leads are fused at the plug, and must be capable of
blowing that
: 13 amp fuse under fault conditions. Of course idiots who play
with
: electricity without understanding the basics can cause havoc.
You've
: proved that one.

The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
and any other round bar) - again Plowman shows that whilst he can
read the regs and learnt by rope do doubt, rather than actually
understating the RISKS and therefore the whys and wherefores of
the regs. If regulations were not infallible we would never have
had wire nuts, but at one time they were allowed in the regs...

Indeed I have come across such "havoc", hence why I'm so critical
of ring circuits, they encourage such bodges. At worse a *radial
circuit*, protected at the panel by a 15A breaker is no worse
than someone like a table lamp (rated at 3amps) being fitted with
a new BS1363 plug and the default 13amp fused. At worse a /ring
circuit/ is like that same table lamp being hard wired into the
30A cooker connection...

:
: : It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how
things
: work
: : should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
: work needed.
:
: Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr
Plowman
: and pay someone to do any electrical work!
:
: But I understand the basics. And am capable of following the
regs. They
: can be bought in nice large print with coloured pictures for
those who
: have difficulty reading.
:

I'm glade they were a help to you pet, it's just a pity that you
chose to only follow them, rather than fully understand the
rational behind them! :~(
--
Regards, Jerry.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not
the
: circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
: circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
: regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.
:
: 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable
for final
: ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
fundamentals
: instead of making a fool of yourself.
:

Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is breaking
the regs!

As for fools, yes Dave, getting mixed up between 13A (fused) flat
pin and 15A (un-fused) round pin plugs/sockets is a bit silly -
perhaps it is time for you to with hang up your neon screw-driver
for the last time...

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
message
ll.co.uk...

snip
: Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into
the
: refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one
helluva fuse
: board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as
it
: is.
:

You still can run more that three 3Kw electric fires off each
ring circuit, thus how many of these sockets are for power and
how many are basically going to be over spec floor/table lighting
points[1]? As for panel size, no one has said otherwise, but
probably not as large as you might be imagining.

[1] which, if so, are probably better feed off the lighting
circuits, which then allows for remote switching if more
convenient

In message , Don Pearce
writes:
[]
We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.
[]
I suspect that for a lot of us, it's only the media - in fact, only the
print media - who do this. I think in Celsius for both: thirtysomething
is too hot for me, much below twenty (unless there's absolutely no wind)
too cold. Our weather forecasts have been in C for some decades, albeit
with the forecaster giving the F equivalent verbally (but not visually).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-Arthur C Clarke, science fiction writer (1917- )

In message en.co.uk,
Roderick Stewart writes:
In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

Yes, people used to be taught things like spelling and multiplication
tables in school. I used to get my pocket money in shillings and pence,
occasionally shops would give change that would include farthings, and I
don't recall having any problems with this.

It was a world in which spellcheckers and calculators hadn't been
invented yet, and in their spare time, brainrotting electronic gadgets
like MP3 players and video game consoles not having been invented yet,
people would sometimes read books. We grew up in it and got used to it.

Rod.

Aw, c'mon, Rod - although there are _some_ advantages in having these
old skills, it is as unrealistic to consider them as essential now that
we have things which do them for us as the skill of making our own
clothes, copperplate handwriting, and so on. (_All_ of these are useful,
just not as essential as they once were.) As for mp3 players and video
consoles being brainrotting, I don't think they are any more so than
gramophones, playing cards, dominoes, rallies, ... (-:

As for books, there may be some evidence that the recent rise of the
kindle and its friends has _increased_ reading. (Whether of the sort of
books you'd approve of, of course ... but it was ever thus, even when
dead trees ruled the roost.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The reason for the oil shortage: nobody remembered to check the oil levels. Our
oil is located in the North Sea but our dip-sticks are located in Westminster.
(or Texas and Washington etc. - adjust as necessary!)

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...

Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
nothing about.

--
*Save a tree, eat a beaver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
and any other round bar)

Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more than 13
amps from a socket anyway?

Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably did just
that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.

Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
: 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable
for final
: ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
fundamentals
: instead of making a fool of yourself.
:

Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is breaking
the regs!

You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't understand the basics.

--
*I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
You still can run more that three 3Kw electric fires off each
ring circuit, thus how many of these sockets are for power and
how many are basically going to be over spec floor/table lighting
points[1]?

All you have in your place is electric fires and table lamps? Explains it
all.

--
Small asylum seeker wanted as mud flap, must be flexible and willing to travel

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

.... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
never been used in England.

Andy

On 29/01/2012 16:28, Andy Champ wrote:
On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has never been
used in England.


Hah, everybody knows a gallon should be an 8th part of an amphora. If it was
good enough for the Romans it should be good enough for you goddam Yanks too.

On 1/29/2012 11:28 AM, Andy Champ wrote:
On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
never been used in England.

And US fluid ounces are just a bit different, too.

In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
never been used in England.

IIRC, it has. The UK one was changed sometime after US independence. They
stuck to the old units, understandably.

--
*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 1/29/2012 1:45 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Andy wrote:
On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
never been used in England.

IIRC, it has. The UK one was changed sometime after US independence. They
stuck to the old units, understandably.

Yup.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:
In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...

Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
nothing about.

Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do
not have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement that
mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than
absolutely necessary is valid. Especially if they're of the sort that
has a connector at both ends: if there's a chance that they might be
used for an appliance that draws more, then it is unwise to use
low-current wire/cable for them.

(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you bate your breath do you catch a lung fish? (Glynn Greenwood 1996-8-23.)

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:48:39 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)

Why do you find ring mains odd? Once you have daisy chained all the
sockets it is an extremely sensible idea to complete the loop back to
the distribution board. For the cost of a few feet of cable, you have
halved both the effective resistance of the mains and the distance to
the furthest socket. I can't imagine a single reason not to do it.

d

On 29/01/2012 20:48, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:
In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...

Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
nothing about.

Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do not
have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement that mains leads (in
US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than absolutely necessary is
valid. Especially if they're of the sort that has a connector at both ends: if
there's a chance that they might be used for an appliance that draws more, then
it is unwise to use low-current wire/cable for them.

(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I live in UK,
but still find ring mains odd.)

Indeed, inherently unsafe some would say:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_ci..._whe n_in_use