David Brown wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson
" the US figure is boosted by Americans working more hours per year than
workers in most developed countries."

That's why they are MORE productive, dumb ass.

Productivity is measured as output per hour.

No it's not, it is GDP per unit of workforce pure calendar year. Go back
to your bingo.

I see 'per unit of time' here.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/productivity

Nothing about years whatever. Hours makes more sense given that wages are
commonly paid according to an hourly rate.

Graham



Look, it's quite simple - the particular definition of productivity used
for the report is the one given in the article:

"The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's total
output in a year by the number of people employed."

That's no measure of productivity I'm familiar with.

The hourly rate is critically important. It's the only one I think counts for
reasons I've made clear.


Did you actually read the article, or did you just skim it until you
could find something that made the USA look slightly less good?

If you want to do some America-bashing based on this article or report,
then you are going to have to go off at a bit of a tangent - try to find
out how much of that productivity translates to dollars in the median
workers' pocket, or their disposable income, for example. Or maybe you
can get somewhere by looking at different industry sectors - perhaps the
US figures are skewed by very high productivity in the financial
services sector. But as the report stands, the title says it all.

If you like working 50+ hour weeks, fine.

Graham

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:28:24 -0500, flipper wrote:

No, we're talking about sales tax on his services, not a tax on his
income,


What in the f*** is the difference?

Taxing services is taxing income.

Where do you get your income? From performing a service for your employer,
right?

Tax that, and we're right back into the abyss of the income tax,
which caused the problems in the first place.

Thanks,
Rich

Eeyore wrote:

David Brown wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson
" the US figure is boosted by Americans working more hours per year than
workers in most developed countries."
That's why they are MORE productive, dumb ass.
Productivity is measured as output per hour.

No it's not, it is GDP per unit of workforce pure calendar year. Go back
to your bingo.
I see 'per unit of time' here.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/productivity

Nothing about years whatever. Hours makes more sense given that wages are
commonly paid according to an hourly rate.

Graham


Look, it's quite simple - the particular definition of productivity used
for the report is the one given in the article:

"The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's total
output in a year by the number of people employed."

That's no measure of productivity I'm familiar with.

The hourly rate is critically important. It's the only one I think counts for
reasons I've made clear.


The hourly rate is one of the important measurements, but it's not the
only one. The yearly rate (or anything else averaged over time) is also
important because that's important from the viewpoint of the employer.
And in this thread, it's important because that's what the article was
discussing.


Did you actually read the article, or did you just skim it until you
could find something that made the USA look slightly less good?

If you want to do some America-bashing based on this article or report,
then you are going to have to go off at a bit of a tangent - try to find
out how much of that productivity translates to dollars in the median
workers' pocket, or their disposable income, for example. Or maybe you
can get somewhere by looking at different industry sectors - perhaps the
US figures are skewed by very high productivity in the financial
services sector. But as the report stands, the title says it all.

If you like working 50+ hour weeks, fine.


If you want to argue that working 40 hour weeks with 5 weeks paid
holiday is better than working 50 hour weeks with 2 weeks holiday,
that's fine by me - just as long as you don't make incorrect claims
about the report(s) under discussion.

Graham

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson
However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm

Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work,
generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the
state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is
not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of
their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter
hours and longer holidays over greater production and income.

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:02:33 +0200, David Brown
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson
However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm

Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work,
generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the
state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is
not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of
their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter
hours and longer holidays over greater production and income.


I think Americans work longer hours because we still have some
entrepreneurial spirit left in us.

We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss".

Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation.

Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:02:33 +0200, David Brown
wrote:


Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm

Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work,
generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the
state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is
not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of
their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter
hours and longer holidays over greater production and income.



I think Americans work longer hours because we still have some
entrepreneurial spirit left in us.


Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to
Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a
concept ...


We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss".


And some of us ultimately get there.


Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation.


Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz in
Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards larger
corporations. BTDT.


Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America?


Tell me about it ;-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

David Brown wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson
However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm

Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work,
generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the
state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is
not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of
their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter
hours and longer holidays over greater production and income.


Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others
because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

David Brown wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm

Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work,
generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the
state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is
not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of
their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter
hours and longer holidays over greater production and income.



Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others
because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On 9/9/07 12:02 PM, in article ,
"Richard The Dreaded Libertarian" wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:28:24 -0500, flipper wrote:

No, we're talking about sales tax on his services, not a tax on his
income,


What in the f*** is the difference?


The big difference is that a Sales Tax lets you decide whether to spend or
save some of your money. Whereas an Income Tax does not - I only pay my
money out as a tax if I buy goods or services, otherwise I can save ALL of
it.


Taxing services is taxing income.

No. It's effect is like a Sales Tax.


Where do you get your income? From performing a service for your employer,
right?

yes.


Tax that, and we're right back into the abyss of the income tax,
which caused the problems in the first place.

No.

Thanks,
Rich

Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:02:33 +0200, David Brown
wrote:


Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most
other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked,
Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the
United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm


Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at
work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and
the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer
hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as
a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus
prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and
income.



I think Americans work longer hours because we still have some
entrepreneurial spirit left in us.


Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to
Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a
concept ...


I enjoy my work - but I enjoy spending time with my family too. Here I
have plenty of opportunity for both. But if my job had been making
hamburgers or sweeping the street, I'm not sure I'd be keen on longer
hours than necessary just for the fun of it.


We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss".

And some of us ultimately get there.


And some of us don't want to get there - I'm happier working in a small
company than I would be trying to run one myself. It all depends on
what you like doing - I'd rather not have to deal with finances, or
customers, or that sort of nonsense.


Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation.


Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz in
Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards larger
corporations. BTDT.


My boss (company founder, and owner of many of the shares) has made a
fair amount of money out of his business. But perhaps Europeans (or at
least Norwegians) don't see money as a goal in itself - I'm perfectly
happy with my income exceeding my expenditure. While I'm not likely to
say no to a pay rise (I only did so once), I'd not want to pay for it in
stomach ulcers.


Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America?


Tell me about it ;-)


I can't understand the appeal myself - but I guess there are many sorts
of people around.

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 21:28:27 +0200, David Brown
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

David Brown wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson
" the US figure is boosted by Americans working more hours
per year than
workers in most developed countries."
That's why they are MORE productive, dumb ass.
Productivity is measured as output per hour.

No it's not, it is GDP per unit of workforce pure calendar year.
Go back
to your bingo.
I see 'per unit of time' here.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/productivity

Nothing about years whatever. Hours makes more sense given that
wages are
commonly paid according to an hourly rate.

Graham


Look, it's quite simple - the particular definition of
productivity used
for the report is the one given in the article:

"The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's
total
output in a year by the number of people employed."

That's no measure of productivity I'm familiar with.

The hourly rate is critically important. It's the only one I think
counts for
reasons I've made clear.


The hourly rate is one of the important measurements, but it's not
the
only one. The yearly rate (or anything else averaged over time) is
also
important because that's important from the viewpoint of the
employer.
And in this thread, it's important because that's what the article
was
discussing.

I thought it was discussing "labor productivity".

The accepted definition of this term is "average real output per hour
of labor".

Therefore, the number of hours worked per capita versus net profit
defines labor productivity in real terms.

Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

David Brown wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most
other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked,
Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the
United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm


Graham


Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries.


Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work,
generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the
state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is
not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of
their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter
hours and longer holidays over greater production and income.



Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others

How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).

because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.

David Brown wrote:

[...]


Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to
Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a
concept ...


I enjoy my work - but I enjoy spending time with my family too. Here I
have plenty of opportunity for both. But if my job had been making
hamburgers or sweeping the street, I'm not sure I'd be keen on longer
hours than necessary just for the fun of it.


True. One has to put in the sweat of studying hard before becoming an
engineer. But that's similar in most other professions. Without the work
and sometimes hardship to obtain a good education people end up in not
so fun jobs.


We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss".


And some of us ultimately get there.


And some of us don't want to get there - I'm happier working in a small
company than I would be trying to run one myself. It all depends on
what you like doing - I'd rather not have to deal with finances, or
customers, or that sort of nonsense.


Yep, you'll be the marketeer, finance guy, chief engineer, QC guy, grief
counselor and so on all in one person.


Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation.


Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz
in Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards
larger corporations. BTDT.


My boss (company founder, and owner of many of the shares) has made a
fair amount of money out of his business. But perhaps Europeans (or at
least Norwegians) don't see money as a goal in itself - I'm perfectly
happy with my income exceeding my expenditure. While I'm not likely to
say no to a pay rise (I only did so once), I'd not want to pay for it in
stomach ulcers.


Americans like the prospects of early retirement when they sell their
home and buy a huge bus that now becomes their main residence. A thought
that drives the sheer fright into the eyes of most Europeans.

Then, some have so much fun at work that they keep working. The weirdest
scenario I saw was a guy in final assembly. He was almost 80, said that
they don't really need any more money but that his wife told him he'd
either return to work or she'd hit the highway, never to be seen again.


Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America?


Tell me about it ;-)


I can't understand the appeal myself - but I guess there are many sorts
of people around.


With me it's the other way around. I can't understand how someone cannot
feel the appeal ;-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

David Brown wrote:


[...]


Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others


How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).


People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social
security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course
people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all
the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves
never being able to really retire. However, those problems are
self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by
withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a
comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical
part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy,
and I like the one here in the US better.


because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.


Those words could have come from my father :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 18:06:33 -0500, flipper wrote:
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:02:42 GMT, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

Where do you get your income? From performing a service for your
employer, right?

And I pay tax on that whether I buy a blessed thing or not.

Yes, exactly, and that is the problem we're attempting to solve.

Thanks,
Rich

Joerg wrote:

David Brown wrote:

[...]


Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others


How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).


People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social
security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course
people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all
the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves
never being able to really retire. However, those problems are
self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by
withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a
comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical
part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy,
and I like the one here in the US better.

because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.

Those words could have come from my father :-)


I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or
travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and
at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time.

In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by
volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics
department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about
what was happening in the real world of Electronics.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

David Brown wrote:

[...]


Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others


How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).


People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social
security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course
people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all
the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves
never being able to really retire. However, those problems are
self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by
withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a
comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical
part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy,
and I like the one here in the US better.


because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.

Those words could have come from my father :-)



I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or
travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and
at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time.

In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by
volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics
department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about
what was happening in the real world of Electronics.


An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher.
Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving
back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since
he's got four kids to bring through college.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:
David Brown wrote:

[...]


Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to
Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a
concept ...


I enjoy my work - but I enjoy spending time with my family too. Here
I have plenty of opportunity for both. But if my job had been making
hamburgers or sweeping the street, I'm not sure I'd be keen on longer
hours than necessary just for the fun of it.


True. One has to put in the sweat of studying hard before becoming an
engineer. But that's similar in most other professions. Without the work
and sometimes hardship to obtain a good education people end up in not
so fun jobs.


We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss".


And some of us ultimately get there.


And some of us don't want to get there - I'm happier working in a
small company than I would be trying to run one myself. It all
depends on what you like doing - I'd rather not have to deal with
finances, or customers, or that sort of nonsense.


Yep, you'll be the marketeer, finance guy, chief engineer, QC guy, grief
counselor and so on all in one person.


I'm already the fpga guy, the high speed digital guy, the assembly
programming guy, the C expert, the PC software guy, the Python guy, the
web server guy, the email guy, the IT guy, the English language expert,
and a dozen other hats - that's enough for me.


Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation.


Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz
in Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards
larger corporations. BTDT.


My boss (company founder, and owner of many of the shares) has made a
fair amount of money out of his business. But perhaps Europeans (or
at least Norwegians) don't see money as a goal in itself - I'm
perfectly happy with my income exceeding my expenditure. While I'm
not likely to say no to a pay rise (I only did so once), I'd not want
to pay for it in stomach ulcers.


Americans like the prospects of early retirement when they sell their
home and buy a huge bus that now becomes their main residence. A thought
that drives the sheer fright into the eyes of most Europeans.


It certainly does not appeal to me!

Then, some have so much fun at work that they keep working. The weirdest
scenario I saw was a guy in final assembly. He was almost 80, said that
they don't really need any more money but that his wife told him he'd
either return to work or she'd hit the highway, never to be seen again.


That's good motivation.


Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America?


Tell me about it ;-)


I can't understand the appeal myself - but I guess there are many
sorts of people around.


With me it's the other way around. I can't understand how someone cannot
feel the appeal ;-)


I like the more social democratic Norwegian society. I can take care of
the things I am interested in (such as embedded systems development),
and let the state take care of things like health care, schools, and
pensions. I like the idea that when you have troubles, you can get help
- both from the state, and from elsewhere (such as your employer). I
like the idea that no one much minds who you are or how much you earn -
there is almost no division on class or wealth lines here.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:45:19 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

David Brown wrote:

[...]


Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others


How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).


People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social
security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course
people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all
the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves
never being able to really retire. However, those problems are
self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by
withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a
comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical
part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy,
and I like the one here in the US better.


because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.

Those words could have come from my father :-)



I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or
travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and
at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time.

In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by
volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics
department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about
what was happening in the real world of Electronics.


An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher.
Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving
back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since
he's got four kids to bring through college.

I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.

I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

On 9/10/07 2:36 PM, in article ,
"Jim Thompson" wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:45:19 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

David Brown wrote:

[...]


Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others


How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).


People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social
security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course
people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all
the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves
never being able to really retire. However, those problems are
self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by
withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a
comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical
part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy,
and I like the one here in the US better.


because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.


The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.

Those words could have come from my father :-)



I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or
travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and
at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time.

In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by
volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics
department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about
what was happening in the real world of Electronics.


An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher.
Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving
back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since
he's got four kids to bring through college.

I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.

I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)

...Jim Thompson

They don't deserve you or the ;-). I taught a "T1 and T3" course at a
University in Portland, and it upset them that I didn't have a MBA - They
had invited me, and set the ridiculous course title. They resolved their
conflict by having a guy with an MBA be "in charge."

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:45:19 GMT, Joerg
wrote:


Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Joerg wrote:


David Brown wrote:

[...]



Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and
stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others


How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your
average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save
significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher
income people).


People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social
security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course
people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all
the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves
never being able to really retire. However, those problems are
self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by
withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a
comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical
part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy,
and I like the one here in the US better.



because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid
for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination.


Agreed.



The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys
work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down.


I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of
working life, but said he didn't like it.

Those words could have come from my father :-)



I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or
travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and
at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time.

In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by
volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics
department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about
what was happening in the real world of Electronics.


An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher.
Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving
back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since
he's got four kids to bring through college.


I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.

I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)


This kind of bureaucratic nonsense happens all the time. Jim
(RSTEngineering) might be able to give you some pointers how to get in.

I hope that by the time I reach your age our church's school will be big
enough that we could offer electronics classes for college kids. No
bureaucrats in the way there. If it's free all you have to do is
broadcast when and where it's happening and I'd think they'll come. Just
imagine: Engineers who learn some real stuff again. What a concept.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/07 2:36 PM, in article ,
"Jim Thompson" wrote:
I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.
I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)

They don't deserve you or the ;-).

I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the
students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect
of academia today.

Joel Kolstad wrote:


I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.
I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)


They don't deserve you or the ;-).


I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the
students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect
of academia today.


Start your own classes. All you need is a room with basic media
equipment, preferably something you can plug into a laptop. Sometimes a
local church can help out, and no, you do not have to be a member there.
For example, ours is used by the local board of realtors for that purpose.

This elitist small circle thinking seems to spread. Even in IEEE it has
come to the point where some people do not like to publish there anymore
because they made the access so expensive that only members of one
particular society inside IEEE can read it, plus people at academic
institutes. IOW the audience is so small that you might as well
self-publish on the web which costs almost nothing.

What they all must realize is that pretty soon knowledge acquisition
will become free of charge. No stupid license rule or accreditation is
going to hold up that steamroller. It's coming, right here on the Internet.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:41:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Joel Kolstad wrote:


I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.
I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)


They don't deserve you or the ;-).


I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the
students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect
of academia today.


Start your own classes. All you need is a room with basic media
equipment, preferably something you can plug into a laptop. Sometimes a
local church can help out, and no, you do not have to be a member there.
For example, ours is used by the local board of realtors for that purpose.

This elitist small circle thinking seems to spread. Even in IEEE it has
come to the point where some people do not like to publish there anymore
because they made the access so expensive that only members of one
particular society inside IEEE can read it, plus people at academic
institutes. IOW the audience is so small that you might as well
self-publish on the web which costs almost nothing.

What they all must realize is that pretty soon knowledge acquisition
will become free of charge. No stupid license rule or accreditation is
going to hold up that steamroller. It's coming, right here on the Internet.

Let's hope. It seems that every time I want to see a paper, it's not
in my "profile" of IEEE subscriptions.

I come up for renewal soon. I think I'm going to give them a large
public dump ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:41:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Joel Kolstad wrote:


I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE.
I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-)


They don't deserve you or the ;-).


I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the
students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect
of academia today.


Start your own classes. All you need is a room with basic media
equipment, preferably something you can plug into a laptop. Sometimes a
local church can help out, and no, you do not have to be a member there.
For example, ours is used by the local board of realtors for that purpose.

This elitist small circle thinking seems to spread. Even in IEEE it has
come to the point where some people do not like to publish there anymore
because they made the access so expensive that only members of one
particular society inside IEEE can read it, plus people at academic
institutes. IOW the audience is so small that you might as well
self-publish on the web which costs almost nothing.

What they all must realize is that pretty soon knowledge acquisition
will become free of charge. No stupid license rule or accreditation is
going to hold up that steamroller. It's coming, right here on the Internet.


Let's hope. It seems that every time I want to see a paper, it's not
in my "profile" of IEEE subscriptions.

I come up for renewal soon. I think I'm going to give them a large
public dump ;-)


Every year I am thinking about that, too, same with VDE. But then I try
another round. The library is a huge sore spot with IEEE. Luckily much
is available outside. It just takes a little longer. Then again 5 mins
on Google are a better investment than spending $30+ on a paper where
you don't even know whether it'll be useful because they only give you
the abstract to look at. Plus I usually find something interesting while
searching, often more valuable than the text I had been looking for.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here
and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here
in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a
coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do
that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the
window. Poof. Gone.

But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design
productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and
refreshing, so it's well worth it.

John

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:



It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here
and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here
in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a
coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do
that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the
window. Poof. Gone.


But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design
productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and
refreshing, so it's well worth it.


That's ok if you walk and they make a product you can't easily make by
yourself. However, most people out here buy regular coffee at the
drive-through.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:45:46 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:



It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here
and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here
in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a
coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do
that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the
window. Poof. Gone.


But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design
productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and
refreshing, so it's well worth it.


That's ok if you walk and they make a product you can't easily make by
yourself. However, most people out here buy regular coffee at the
drive-through.

I noticed that on my last trip back East. Long lines of idling cars
and trucks at the Dunkin Donuts takeout window, even in great weather.
It was a lot faster to park (lots of empty spaces) and walk in, plus
you got to see the selections of goodies, and tune your coffee just
right, and sit at a table and enjoy the view (of long lines of idling
cars and trucks.)

The Boston Creme donut is especially good. DD whups Krispy Kreme hands
down.

Mo has finally finished her workout, and showered, and fed the various
beasts, so we're off to Delessio now. Latte and bread pudding for
breakfast, maybe.

John

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:45:46 GMT, Joerg
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:


On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:




It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here
and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here
in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a
coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do
that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the
window. Poof. Gone.


But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design
productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and
refreshing, so it's well worth it.


That's ok if you walk and they make a product you can't easily make by
yourself. However, most people out here buy regular coffee at the
drive-through.


I noticed that on my last trip back East. Long lines of idling cars
and trucks at the Dunkin Donuts takeout window, even in great weather.
It was a lot faster to park (lots of empty spaces) and walk in, plus
you got to see the selections of goodies, and tune your coffee just
right, and sit at a table and enjoy the view (of long lines of idling
cars and trucks.)


Same in New York. Except that coffee is called "cuophy" out there.


The Boston Creme donut is especially good. DD whups Krispy Kreme hands
down.


I don't like either. Too much sugar. AFAICT Krispy ain't doing too well
right now.


Mo has finally finished her workout, and showered, and fed the various
beasts, so we're off to Delessio now. Latte and bread pudding for
breakfast, maybe.


I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits. No syrup though, kicked that habit more than
a decade ago. Might have to camp in a hotel at a client for a while
soon, I hope I am able to moderate such cholesterol intake.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

I come up for renewal soon. I think I'm going to give them a large
public dump ;-)


Every year I am thinking about that, too, same with VDE. But then I try
another round. The library is a huge sore spot with IEEE. Luckily much
is available outside. It just takes a little longer. Then again 5 mins
on Google are a better investment than spending $30+ on a paper where
you don't even know whether it'll be useful because they only give you
the abstract to look at. Plus I usually find something interesting while
searching, often more valuable than the text I had been looking for.


I dumped IEEE more than a decade ago... and it was over pretty much the
same issue. I found it was easier, and cheaper to head off to a university
library, and peruse the stacks. I miss some of the journals that used to
head my way, but I sure don't miss the cost of getting IEEE Rectum, and
membership to the half-dozen societies that interested me.

-Chuck

flipper wrote:


In Australia, there used to be a sales tax, on sales. Then they changed
it
to a "goods and services tax" which also applied to services. The tax on
sales went down from 22% to 10% I believe, whereas the tax on repair
services went from 0% to 10% as far as I know. In both cases I am not
mentioning the income tax and indirect taxes that also apply. The
government did have some freedom to change the relative tax cost of
manufacturing and repair, and they changed it, in the direction that
discouraged repair.

If you had some data indicating there was a flourishing 'repair'
industry that vanished overnight when taxed the same as everything
else then you might have a point but, IMO, you're tilting at windmills
trying to achieve your 'real' goal of 'reviving' a service that is
just plain not economical in light of replacement costs.

I think that tax was only a small factor. A much more important factor is
the difference in the wages paid in different countries. I think that in
the long term, this wage disparity will be difficult to maintain,
especially after the point when our standard of education is overtaken.

I take it you consider the 'and services' tax to be 'unfair'
Not more unfair than tax in general, just that it creates undesirable
incentives.

but that
gets back to my original comment about what makes 'repair' labor so
special vs the labor of making the things to begin with?
Nothing other than which country it happens in.

Btw, where does it stop? I mean, if the 'repair' industry is worthy of
special consideration then surely there are other industries/products
that we can manipulate taxes to either encourage or discourage and
induce that pesky rabble called the 'public' to do what we want.

Chucking a $40 microwave oven because the light bulb has blown would almost
certainly be the economically cheaper option for the average householder
who isn't confident taking a screwdriver to the relevant cover. Obviously
if wages were the same in the country where the consumer lives and country
where the microwave oven was built, then (a) we wouldn't have $40 microwave
ovens and (b) it would be cheaper to pay someone to replace the light bulb
than buy a new microwave oven. I would not propose any intervention that
goes so far as to preserve any industries that would not be worthwhile if
wages all over the world were similar.

Chris

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:


I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.

Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?

John

John Larkin wrote:

Joerg wrote:

I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.

Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?

What does crushed stone taste like ?

Graham

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:31:01 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:


I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.

Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?

John


The first grits I ever ate were in Huntsville, Alabama, in the early
'60's.

All breakfast orders came with grits.

A waitress with a German accent told me, in no uncertain terms, "Now
honey, eat your grits" ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:



I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.


Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?


I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just
different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then
when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you
start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back
loads of bacon from vacation trips.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:



I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.


Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?


I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just
different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then
when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you
start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back
loads of bacon from vacation trips.

I like smoked pork chops (Kassler). Fortunately there's a large German
population around here and really good ones are not too hard to find.
Also Spaetzle. Just not too often.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:



I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.


Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?

John



Grits! Plain grits. Grits with butter. Grits with syrup.
Grits with brown sugar. Grits with ketchup (eewwww :-( )
Grits!! You made me HUNGRY!

Ed

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:


On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:




I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.


Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?


I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just
different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then
when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you
start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back
loads of bacon from vacation trips.


I like smoked pork chops (Kassler). Fortunately there's a large German
population around here and really good ones are not too hard to find.
Also Spaetzle. Just not too often.


Yep, delicious. But watch them kidneys if you eat Kassler a lot. We use
to make our own Spaetzle. Pressed through a large tool called
"Spaetzle-Schwob" which requires lots of biceps and endurance.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:21:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:


On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote:




I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.


Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?


I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just
different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then
when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you
start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back
loads of bacon from vacation trips.


I like smoked pork chops (Kassler). Fortunately there's a large German
population around here and really good ones are not too hard to find.
Also Spaetzle. Just not too often.


Yep, delicious. But watch them kidneys if you eat Kassler a lot. We use
to make our own Spaetzle. Pressed through a large tool called
"Spaetzle-Schwob" which requires lots of biceps and endurance.

Do these look like good ones:
http://www.loewen-urbach.de/swabian_spaetzle_maker.html

Is the Schaumloeffel necessary or can you just use a strainer as for
pasta?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:31:01 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg

I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon,
sausages, potatoes, grits.

Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit?

I first had grits in the Chow Hall at Shaw AFB, Sumter, SC. The
southern boys got a kick out of watching the carpetbaggers put
cream and sugar on their grits, as if it was cream-of-wheat. I
learned early on that they're supposed to get lots of butter, salt
and pepper. ;-)

And, has anyone heard the old joke about the Yankee who just
arrives in the South, and at a restaurant, he decides to try some.
He says, "And some grits".
Waitress asks, "Hominy?"
Customer says, "Oh, I don't know - five or six, maybe?"

Cheers!
Rich