"Jim Thompson" skrev i en
meddelelse ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

.... And this happy state of affairs actually benefit said workers or
management & political cronies?

Sez he who is currently ****ed off because the communist ******* retard
government cannot abolish the top rate tax EVEN WHILE IN MAJORITY.
Consequently, I will take 3-4 weeks holiday more on top of the six I already
enjoy - screw them; they can go leech off someone else!!

"John Larkin" skrev i en
meddelelse ...
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:25:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

It's impressive the progress Ireland has made: #2 in the world!

John,

Irish, of course.

Cheats, i.e: LOW TAXES = High Incentive to work and Little Stupidity &
Waste (the governments contribution)!

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:28:42 +0200, "Frithiof Andreas Jensen"
wrote:


"John Larkin" skrev i en
meddelelse ...
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:25:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

It's impressive the progress Ireland has made: #2 in the world!

John,

Irish, of course.

Cheats, i.e: LOW TAXES = High Incentive to work and Little Stupidity &
Waste (the governments contribution)!

They leach money from surrounding governments with their IP
legislation. It only works because they're small. Probably the Cayman
Islands has a high "productivity" as well.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Don Bowey wrote:

On 9/4/07 11:34 PM, in article , "Michael A.
Terrell" wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:

On 9/4/07 3:48 PM, in article ,
"Chuck Harris" wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:
On 9/4/07 10:47 AM, in article ,
"Chuck Harris" wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:02:38 -0400, Fred Bloggs
wrote:

Fred, Why don't you move to France where you'll fit right in ?:-)
I think I will, I would enjoy living in France, at least there's some
semblance of culture there.


Be careful! A lot of that 'culture' is resistant to all known
antibiotics. On second thought: Enjoy yourself, while you last.


French medical science rivals the world, to this day they continue to
make great breakthroughs. Louis Pasteur is the Isaac Newton of modern
microbiology, a great genius.
Yeah, and the Arab world used to be the cradle of civilization.

Things change.

It still was. That didn't change

You really need to try and follow the thread.

Why, did I miss something important?


Start again at the part that reads "French medical...

I see I didn't miss something important.


FB uses Louis Pasteur as proof of France's current
greatness in medical science.

That is just like using the Arab world's centuries old expertise
in mathematics as proof of its current scholarly greatness.

True.

But the Arab world still was the cradle of civilization. What was can't be
taken away.



The Model T was the shining example of the production line
automobile, but haow many do you see on the road?


15,230,004.

Come on now. Do you have a real point


Yes, but you didn't see it, or ignored it. YOU CAN'T LIVE IN THE
PAST! You can only vist it in history books and museums.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message
. net...

For example, the number of people around here who almost never cook and live
on take-out dinners or fast food is mind boggling. Very sad. Not only does
it lead to cholesterol and obesity issues but they often do not realize what
it costs them financially.


Ironically "healthy" food is often more expensive these days than "junk" food.
This has led to the poor having a higher incidence of obesity than those with
more money.

Not quite the same as eating out, but I think every college student realizes
pretty quickly that it's almost impossible to make for yourself the same food
that's provided in a $0.99-$1.99 frozen dinner from the grocery store... plus
of course you save the time of preparation.

(And of course there's ramen noodles for the ultimate in cheap college
foods... gotta save some money for beer, after all. :-) )


Actually, as a student I found out that fresh food cooked at home was
cheaper. Still is. You just have to be a smart shopper, always looking
for sales, know how to store stuff. I mean, fresh corn for 50c or fresh
meat for $2.49/lbs can never be achieved by some pre-pressed burger.

You can get 10 chicken pieces for $7.99 at a well known place, with some
of that paying their massives TV ad blitzes. Or you can go to the store,
buy a whole chicken for under $5, cook it over the barbie and end up
with more, tastier and better quality meat. Same with burgers. We always
cook our own. Less than $5 of top quality meat makes 12-15 large burgers
over a wood/charcoal fire, we'll eat 1-2 each and the rest goes into the
freezer. Cut some potatoes in half, oil and spice them, onto the barbie,
yummy. Sure beats the greasy fries from the fast food joint and costs a
lot less.

Many poor people just think it's cheaper while cheating themselves. And
then they easily shell out $20-30 for one measly take-out "dinner" for
the family. Do that 20 days out of a month, which some do, and here's
around $500. Gone. Suddenly the budget is off kilter and they have to go
to a payday loan place which augers them into the pile of debt some more.

Here I'd include those who over-stretch themselves regularly as
compulsive shoppers. Those folks seem to have a tendency for
"convenience foods".

It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here
and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here
in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a
coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do
that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the
window. Poof. Gone.

A sad and unfortunately true story out here is a really old couple who
did exactly that for decades. The result are nearly non-existent savings
and the dire outlook of having no choice but a welfare type nursing
home. To me that's the most dismal last phase of life one can
experience. I have to brace myself everytime we visit someone there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" skrev i en meddelelse
et...

So, then, why is the cancer mortality rate higher there?


Golouaise(sp?) - or rather the chemicals poured over the tobacco they are
made from ;-)

"Chuck Harris" skrev i en meddelelse
...

Yes, purebred people are important to any proper country... Europe has
always
harbored that fantasy.

Learned through Experience with 2000 years of European wars:
Multi-culturalism; the Multi-ethnic society; Diversity (or whatever label
sociologists use to make tribal society appear like a really Great idea).
What it really means is this: If your car happen to break down in the wrong
area, the resident tribe *will* bash your head in with your tire iron, torch
the car steal your wallet and pelt the emergency servics with rocks and
petrol bombs! For a real life demo, I suggest Nørrebro in copenhagen or
Gjellerup in Århus.

The US got plenty of gang-banger residue from the mythical "Melting Pot".
The Eropean tax-payers would rather not have them (anymore).

Frithiof Andreas Jensen wrote:

"Joerg" skrev i en meddelelse
et...


So, then, why is the cancer mortality rate higher there?



Golouaise(sp?) - or rather the chemicals poured over the tobacco they are
made from ;-)


Gauloises ;-)

They cause lung cancer though. But what I meant was the total number of
cancer cases versus long term survival of that group of people. Doesn't
look too great in most of Europe.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Thanks for the response, Joerg; it's certainly a somewhat different view than
I'm used to. I'm still thinking those $0.99 frozen dinners are cheaper, but I
will pay some more attention next time I'm at a grocery store and try to make
a valid comparison.

---Joel

Joel Kolstad wrote:

Thanks for the response, Joerg; it's certainly a somewhat different view than
I'm used to. I'm still thinking those $0.99 frozen dinners are cheaper, but I
will pay some more attention next time I'm at a grocery store and try to make
a valid comparison.


Also, take a close look at the nutritional value of that $0.99 frozen
dinner. But sit down before you do ;-)

This week's specials as an example:
http://www.raleys.com/apps/svngs/svngs.jsp#Fine%20Meats

Pork loin for $2.28/lbs or sirloin steak for $3.47/lbs is certainly not
something you can find at any fast food place. You've got to cook your
own. Else it'll get really expensive or people will have to settle for
pre-pressed patties from who-knows-where, topped with cheese where the
saturated fats make the cholesterol reading peg.

Even if in a rush I'll barbeque. Just take vellum pad and pencil to the
barbie, of the whole laptop if you must. With some practice it's as easy
as keeping the wood stove going.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." hath wroth:

Jim Thompson wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

A couple of problems with this sort of statistic. First:

"The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's total
output in a year by the number of people employed."

Unfortunately, there's no way of telling what the cost of that output
should be and whether or not it has properly been accounted for. They
don't go around quoting 'Net' National Product but 'Gross' National
Product.

Actually, the desired term is GDP (gross domestic product) which
includes compensation for inport/export values. See formulas at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
The BBC article doesn't mention either GDP or GNP or any other
recognizable metric. Since the ILO is part of the UN, they probably
do their own numbers. It's difficult to tell what the ILO means by
"country's total output", so let's backtrack:
http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_ILO/Media_and_public_information/Press_releases/lang--en/WCMS_083976/index.htm
http://www.ilo.org/trends/
It appears to be their own unique and rather extensive method of
measurement called KILM:
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/employment/strat/kilm/index.htm
The report is actually a 22Mbyte Windoze program, not a printed
report. Cool:
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/employment/strat/kilm/download.htm
You have to register to download. I just started downloading, but
it's taking nearly forever to download. Yawn...

Take Boeing for example. They sell a $100 million airplane and
the GNP is credited with $100 million. Its not evident from that number
that a good part of the value of the product is foreign made and should
properly be credited to its country of origin.

GDP compensates for that. GNP does not. See formulas in the
Wikipedia article.

Interesting. My second issue still remains in that this is a monetary
statistic. There doesn't appear to be a way to factor in the lower cost
of production in some countries.

--
Paul Hovnanian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:28:42 +0200, "Frithiof Andreas Jensen"
wrote:


"John Larkin" skrev i en
meddelelse ...
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:25:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

It's impressive the progress Ireland has made: #2 in the world!

John,

Irish, of course.

Cheats, i.e: LOW TAXES = High Incentive to work and Little Stupidity &
Waste (the governments contribution)!


That's not fair! I'm sure the EC is working on the problem.

John

Not enough time to read all the posts in
this thread, so if this point has
already been made, my apologies.

Historically, as production slows in the
US economy, the seniority system leads
to the layoff of less-experienced (i.e.,
typically less productive) workers. The
consequence of this practice is usually
that labor force productivity then rises
as production falls.

Recent reports in the media about
increases in US labor productivity are
part of the ongoing pitch that things
are great and getting better.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:26:42 +0200, "Frithiof Andreas Jensen"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" skrev i en
meddelelse ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

... And this happy state of affairs actually benefit said workers or
management & political cronies?

Sez he who is currently ****ed off because the communist ******* retard
government cannot abolish the top rate tax EVEN WHILE IN MAJORITY.
Consequently, I will take 3-4 weeks holiday more on top of the six I already
enjoy - screw them; they can go leech off someone else!!



Eh? Looking back in time I only observe higher tax rates than now.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Fred Bloggs wrote:


Chuck Harris wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:



Chuck Harris wrote:
[snip]

You don't like their politics so you discredit the entire nation, its
people, culture, and contributions to civilization- typical ignorant
American.


I don't recall doing that. Perhaps you could point out where I did? Or
did it --just come to you-- ?

I find that not living in France, their politics has no real effect on
me.
France is basically insignificant to most every place but France. If
they
disappeared from the face of the Earth, it would be many many years
before
most anyone in the United States even noticed the change...

I do notice, however, that you seem to be very free in downplaying the
many accomplishments of the American people [including the really big one
that explains why France, and the rest of Europe isn't called Germany].

Just what you accuse me of doing.

America's involvement in WWII was not exactly a selfless gift to the
rest of the world. FDR knew it was only a matter of time before we were
in the sights of Fascist regimes, and Japan had already attacked several
of our territories.

Never have I said the the US involvement in WWII wasn't based on our own
internal interests. It was. But what you fail to acknowledge is that WWII
could not have been won by the Allies without the US. It was our tireless
effort, and unsinkable economy that saved the day.

Frithiof Andreas Jensen wrote:

"Jim Thompson" skrev i en
meddelelse ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson


... And this happy state of affairs actually benefit said workers or
management & political cronies?

Sez he who is currently ****ed off because the communist ******* retard
government cannot abolish the top rate tax EVEN WHILE IN MAJORITY.
Consequently, I will take 3-4 weeks holiday more on top of the six I already
enjoy - screw them; they can go leech off someone else!!


Hmm, I met quite a few Scandinavians who did that. But I must confess I
also did it in Germany once. Looked at the biz numbers, tax rate quite
up there, some major remodel was needed in the house. Looked at
contractor costs versus my after-tax income, almost choked. Decided to
take three weeks off and did it myself.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Chuck Harris wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:



Chuck Harris wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:



Chuck Harris wrote:
[snip]

You don't like their politics so you discredit the entire nation,
its people, culture, and contributions to civilization- typical
ignorant American.



I don't recall doing that. Perhaps you could point out where I did? Or
did it --just come to you-- ?

I find that not living in France, their politics has no real effect
on me.
France is basically insignificant to most every place but France. If
they
disappeared from the face of the Earth, it would be many many years
before
most anyone in the United States even noticed the change...

I do notice, however, that you seem to be very free in downplaying the
many accomplishments of the American people [including the really big
one
that explains why France, and the rest of Europe isn't called Germany].

Just what you accuse me of doing.


America's involvement in WWII was not exactly a selfless gift to the
rest of the world. FDR knew it was only a matter of time before we
were in the sights of Fascist regimes, and Japan had already attacked
several of our territories.


Never have I said the the US involvement in WWII wasn't based on our own
internal interests. It was. But what you fail to acknowledge is that WWII
could not have been won by the Allies without the US. It was our tireless
effort, and unsinkable economy that saved the day.


And the US cannot have won it without the allies. I don't recall the
allies sitting around on their butts doing nothing. And as for the
unsinkable economy, WWII pulled us out the Depression.

Joerg wrote:

Joel Kolstad wrote:

Thanks for the response, Joerg; it's certainly a somewhat different view than
I'm used to. I'm still thinking those $0.99 frozen dinners are cheaper, but I
will pay some more attention next time I'm at a grocery store and try to make
a valid comparison.


Also, take a close look at the nutritional value of that $0.99 frozen
dinner. But sit down before you do ;-)

This week's specials as an example:
http://www.raleys.com/apps/svngs/svngs.jsp#Fine%20Meats

Pork loin for $2.28/lbs or sirloin steak for $3.47/lbs is certainly not
something you can find at any fast food place. You've got to cook your
own. Else it'll get really expensive or people will have to settle for
pre-pressed patties from who-knows-where, topped with cheese where the
saturated fats make the cholesterol reading peg.

Even if in a rush I'll barbeque. Just take vellum pad and pencil to the
barbie, of the whole laptop if you must. With some practice it's as easy
as keeping the wood stove going.


Some of the frozen vegetables are a good deal. One of my favorite is
a pound bag of sliced and cleaned red, green and yellow peppers, with
some pieces of onion for $1.29. I can't buy them fresh for that price,
don't have to endure the pain of slicing them, or get rid of the scraps.
I don't have to use more than i need to keep it from going bad, or spend
time looking for good peppers at produce stands. They are sold as a
stir fry, but I use them in Chili, with potatoes, and in vegetable soup.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 9/5/07 9:48 AM, in article , "Michael A.
Terrell" wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:

On 9/4/07 11:34 PM, in article , "Michael A.
Terrell" wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:

On 9/4/07 3:48 PM, in article ,
"Chuck Harris" wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:
On 9/4/07 10:47 AM, in article ,
"Chuck Harris" wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:02:38 -0400, Fred Bloggs
wrote:

Fred, Why don't you move to France where you'll fit right in ?:-)
I think I will, I would enjoy living in France, at least there's some
semblance of culture there.


Be careful! A lot of that 'culture' is resistant to all known
antibiotics. On second thought: Enjoy yourself, while you last.


French medical science rivals the world, to this day they continue to
make great breakthroughs. Louis Pasteur is the Isaac Newton of modern
microbiology, a great genius.
Yeah, and the Arab world used to be the cradle of civilization.

Things change.

It still was. That didn't change

You really need to try and follow the thread.

Why, did I miss something important?


Start again at the part that reads "French medical...

I see I didn't miss something important.


FB uses Louis Pasteur as proof of France's current
greatness in medical science.

That is just like using the Arab world's centuries old expertise
in mathematics as proof of its current scholarly greatness.

True.

But the Arab world still was the cradle of civilization. What was can't be
taken away.



The Model T was the shining example of the production line
automobile, but haow many do you see on the road?


15,230,004.

Come on now. Do you have a real point


Yes, but you didn't see it, or ignored it. YOU CAN'T LIVE IN THE
PAST! You can only vist it in history books and museums.


I was afraid something like that was your point.

Who's living in the past? Only a fool ignores the past and fails to give
recognition where it is due.

Do you know some other area that is, historically, known as the cradle of
civilization?

You go back to History 50.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Joel Kolstad wrote:


Thanks for the response, Joerg; it's certainly a somewhat different view than
I'm used to. I'm still thinking those $0.99 frozen dinners are cheaper, but I
will pay some more attention next time I'm at a grocery store and try to make
a valid comparison.


Also, take a close look at the nutritional value of that $0.99 frozen
dinner. But sit down before you do ;-)

This week's specials as an example:
http://www.raleys.com/apps/svngs/svngs.jsp#Fine%20Meats

Pork loin for $2.28/lbs or sirloin steak for $3.47/lbs is certainly not
something you can find at any fast food place. You've got to cook your
own. Else it'll get really expensive or people will have to settle for
pre-pressed patties from who-knows-where, topped with cheese where the
saturated fats make the cholesterol reading peg.

Even if in a rush I'll barbeque. Just take vellum pad and pencil to the
barbie, of the whole laptop if you must. With some practice it's as easy
as keeping the wood stove going.



Some of the frozen vegetables are a good deal. One of my favorite is
a pound bag of sliced and cleaned red, green and yellow peppers, with
some pieces of onion for $1.29. I can't buy them fresh for that price,
don't have to endure the pain of slicing them, or get rid of the scraps.
I don't have to use more than i need to keep it from going bad, or spend
time looking for good peppers at produce stands. They are sold as a
stir fry, but I use them in Chili, with potatoes, and in vegetable soup.


We like the long Mexican peppers. Sliced in half, spiced, then lightly
roasted on the barbeque. The bill or materials for that comes to around
two quarters ;-)

Also good: Jalapenos scraped out, stuff with cheese, placed on a skewer
and then slowly roasted over indirect charcoal heat. If anyone has a,
ahem, slight digestive block, that ought to fix it. Or as one of my
former bosses put it, it burns twice.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm


Might that by any chance change once the oil and natural gas reserves of
Norway are tapped out? Value addition is fairly easy as long as you can
pump the goods out of the North Sea.


It just goes to show how worthless such studies can be. You'll also find that some (notably small) countries have very
high per-capita GDPs based on their provision of high value services like banking. That doesn't seem to have much to do
with 'productivity' in the traditonal sense to me.

That the French are on par with USA intruiged me though. It kind of kills the popular US myth about 'socialism' being
anti-business.


Socialism is anti-business.

So how do you explain the equal productivity ? Of course Europe isn't full-blown Socialist of course (despite the ranting of
some loonies here). We've simply adopted the best bits for our social policies.


Also, they are definitely not on par WRT services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most certainly so in the UK.

Overall, people actually tend to live longer lives in Europe.

So, what's your life expectancy in the USA if you get seriously sick and don't have a private medical insurance policy ?
That's something like 25% of the US population.

Also, I gather that your popular HMO policies restrict the treatment available to you.

Graham

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

Pasteur comes to mind because of the Pasteur Institute, you might get a
clue. They rival any US medical research institution in productivity and
contributions to the state of the knowledge. France possesses some of
the most brilliant people in the world, and these are French ethnics and
not imports. There is no "used to be" to it.

So, then, why is the cancer mortality rate higher there?


Why is overall US mortality higher than say, Iran ?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2066rank.html


And the UK's even higher yet?

According to that particular table. The point is that narrowly and selectively choosing
numbers can say whatever you want.


Probably because Iranians live on
healthier food. So far I haven't met an Iranian immigrant who was
overweight at a young age. Those who came with their parents or were
born here, very different story. Same for other countries. Turkey isn't
on the list but folks from there told me of relatives that are around
100 and totally healthy, doing hardcore farming work (!), often despite
a bad habit of smoking. However, they never ate a single Snicker's bar
in their whole life because you couldn't buy them out in the country.

That's probably a very large part of it.


Long story short we've got to give up our cheeseburgers and you guys
have to give up the bangers ;-)

I'd suggest go easy on processed foods generally. You can actually make very healthy
burgers and sausages but not a healthy chicken (Mc)nugget for example.


You might also ask what comparative incidence of cancer is. I doubt they're the
same.


Doesn't make much of a difference. You get a certain kind of cancer, you
treat it, then look at the long term survivals. Breast cancer is breast
cancer, no matter which country. Given a large enough number (not always
the case in some medical "studies") you'll have quite a reliable
indicator of how good the system works in a given country.

For example, one of the things I noticed when coming to the US: When
someone got cancer in Europe they had to fight hard to get the doc to
prescribe and the health insurers to pay for a PET scan. Here in the US
they usually send you to the next PET scan site instantly.

And the widespread use of 'scans' (are they all really needed) is one reason your health
care costs so much it seems. Is a PET scan even the most appropriate thing ?

Graham

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Joerg" wrote

For example, the number of people around here who almost never cook and live
on take-out dinners or fast food is mind boggling. Very sad. Not only does
it lead to cholesterol and obesity issues but they often do not realize what
it costs them financially.

Ironically "healthy" food is often more expensive these days than "junk" food.
This has led to the poor having a higher incidence of obesity than those with
more money.

Not quite the same as eating out, but I think every college student realizes
pretty quickly that it's almost impossible to make for yourself the same food
that's provided in a $0.99-$1.99 frozen dinner from the grocery store... plus
of course you save the time of preparation.

I haven't seen many 50p frozen dinners here but actually in almost every case, the
ingredients actually cost *less* than the ready made meal. The snag is that you're
likely to have to cook in larger quantities for it to be a realistic proposition.

Graham

Joerg wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm


Might that by any chance change once the oil and natural gas reserves of
Norway are tapped out? Value addition is fairly easy as long as you can
pump the goods out of the North Sea.


It just goes to show how worthless such studies can be. You'll also find that some (notably small) countries have very
high per-capita GDPs based on their provision of high value services like banking. That doesn't seem to have much to do
with 'productivity' in the traditonal sense to me.

That the French are on par with USA intruiged me though. It kind of kills the popular US myth about 'socialism' being
anti-business.


Socialism is anti-business. Also, they are definitely not on par WRT
services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most certainly
so in the UK.


Do some of the european countries actually want old people to die?


I've heard some stories about certain procedures "not being done" on
people over certain age limits.

I haven't.


That can be a real bummer if, like our
former neighbor in Germany, you are around 80 but have the fitness of a
60 year old. This guy is still an active hunter and can leave some
younger lads in the dust on longer hikes.

I can't believe doctors would discriminate against a healthy individual.

Graham

flipper wrote:

Jim Thompson

The thing that struck me most, on my very first trip into France, was
the smell.... like raw sewage running down the streets.

Clearly making things up here.


You should definitely avoid Bombay, then.

That's mainly burnt and unburnt hydrocarbons I reckon. I discovered you can
avoid it if you go high enough. A 6th floor roof-top restaurant didn't suffer
from its effect at all.

Graham

Don Bowey posted to sci.electronics.design:

On 9/4/07 3:48 PM, in article
, "Chuck Harris"
wrote:

Don Bowey wrote:
On 9/4/07 10:47 AM, in article
, "Chuck Harris"
wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:02:38 -0400, Fred Bloggs
wrote:

Fred, Why don't you move to France where you'll fit right in
?:-)
I think I will, I would enjoy living in France, at least
there's some semblance of culture there.


Be careful! A lot of that 'culture' is resistant to all
known
antibiotics. On second thought: Enjoy yourself, while you
last.


French medical science rivals the world, to this day they
continue to make great breakthroughs. Louis Pasteur is the Isaac
Newton of modern microbiology, a great genius.
Yeah, and the Arab world used to be the cradle of civilization.

Things change.

It still was. That didn't change

You really need to try and follow the thread.

Why, did I miss something important?


Start again at the part that reads "French medical...

I see I didn't miss something important.


FB uses Louis Pasteur as proof of France's current
greatness in medical science.

That is just like using the Arab world's centuries old expertise
in mathematics as proof of its current scholarly greatness.

True.

But the Arab world still was the cradle of civilization. What was
can't be taken away.

I will dispute that. Both China and India have written records
predating anything from the middle east (Tigris / Euphrates) or
Europe. For some reference try googling Bharati.

JosephKK wrote:

Don Bowey posted to sci.electronics.design:

But the Arab world still was the cradle of civilization. What was
can't be taken away.

I will dispute that. Both China and India have written records
predating anything from the middle east (Tigris / Euphrates) or
Europe. For some reference try googling Bharati.

That doesn't seem to be very useful.
http://www.google.com/search?&q=bharati

Graham

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:37:47 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Joel Kolstad wrote:


Thanks for the response, Joerg; it's certainly a somewhat
different view than
I'm used to. I'm still thinking those $0.99 frozen dinners are
cheaper, but I
will pay some more attention next time I'm at a grocery store and
try to make
a valid comparison.


Also, take a close look at the nutritional value of that $0.99
frozen
dinner. But sit down before you do ;-)

This week's specials as an example:
http://www.raleys.com/apps/svngs/svngs.jsp#Fine%20Meats

Pork loin for $2.28/lbs or sirloin steak for $3.47/lbs is certainly
not
something you can find at any fast food place. You've got to cook
your
own. Else it'll get really expensive or people will have to settle
for
pre-pressed patties from who-knows-where, topped with cheese where
the
saturated fats make the cholesterol reading peg.

Even if in a rush I'll barbeque. Just take vellum pad and pencil to
the
barbie, of the whole laptop if you must. With some practice it's as
easy
as keeping the wood stove going.



Some of the frozen vegetables are a good deal. One of my
favorite is
a pound bag of sliced and cleaned red, green and yellow peppers,
with
some pieces of onion for $1.29. I can't buy them fresh for that
price,
don't have to endure the pain of slicing them, or get rid of the
scraps.
I don't have to use more than i need to keep it from going bad, or
spend
time looking for good peppers at produce stands. They are sold as
a
stir fry, but I use them in Chili, with potatoes, and in vegetable
soup.


We like the long Mexican peppers. Sliced in half, spiced, then
lightly
roasted on the barbeque. The bill or materials for that comes to
around
two quarters ;-)

Also good: Jalapenos scraped out, stuff with cheese, placed on a
skewer
and then slowly roasted over indirect charcoal heat. If anyone has a,
ahem, slight digestive block, that ought to fix it. Or as one of my
former bosses put it, it burns twice.


Stop it... stop it now, I say!!!!

My mouth is watering at the thought of it all :-)

It is interesting comparing prices though. Those meat prices from
Raley's look pretty good to me compared to our local supermarket.
http://woolworths.smedia.com.au/acti...ecatalogue/wa/
these are weekly specials and you can see the normal prices.

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:29:34 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

Also, they are definitely not on par WRT
services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most
certainly so in the UK.


I suppose you haven't seen Michael Moore's Sicko....?

Quite frankly, it seemed pretty truthful to me and I would hate for
the Australian health care system to go the way of the US system. In
fact GW and little Johnny Howard are such good mates that the US -
Australia FTA which was negotiated recently has a hidden agenda item.
If the US allows access for Australian farm produce we have to relax
our very generous Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Over here we pay
very little for a long list of drugs which are assessed for inclusion
on the PBS and the big drug manufacturers don't like it. They are
doing their damndest to put a spike in the wheel by way of the FTA, so
that we have to pay as much for the same drugs as you do in the US.
And GW is pushing the agenda through his little lap-dog Johnny Howard.

Joerg wrote:

Actually, as a student I found out that fresh food cooked at home was
cheaper. Still is. You just have to be a smart shopper, always looking
for sales, know how to store stuff. I mean, fresh corn for 50c or fresh
meat for $2.49/lbs can never be achieved by some pre-pressed burger.

Absolutely and for the most part home cooked food can taste loads better too. I
wouldn't attempt a curry though. They are *very* time consuming even just to
prepare.

I got this book as a present from a girlfriend's mum IIRC !
http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Bedsit.../dp/0140468552

That helps deal with the issues of smaller portion sizes and had some fairly tasty
recipes too.

Graham

Ross Herbert wrote:
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:29:34 GMT, Joerg
wrote:
Also, they are definitely not on par WRT
services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most
certainly so in the UK.


I suppose you haven't seen Michael Moore's Sicko....?

Quite frankly, it seemed pretty truthful to me

Michael Moore is a shameless huckster. Nothing he does
should ever be mistaken for being factual.

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:41:26 GMT, Ross Herbert
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:29:34 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

Also, they are definitely not on par WRT
services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most
certainly so in the UK.


I suppose you haven't seen Michael Moore's Sicko....?

Quite frankly, it seemed pretty truthful to me and I would hate for
the Australian health care system to go the way of the US system. In
fact GW and little Johnny Howard are such good mates that the US -
Australia FTA which was negotiated recently has a hidden agenda item.
If the US allows access for Australian farm produce we have to relax
our very generous Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Over here we pay
very little for a long list of drugs which are assessed for inclusion
on the PBS and the big drug manufacturers don't like it. They are
doing their damndest to put a spike in the wheel by way of the FTA, so
that we have to pay as much for the same drugs as you do in the US.
And GW is pushing the agenda through his little lap-dog Johnny Howard.

Ummm? Who elected this lap dog? Why don't you put the blame back
where it belongs?

The way everyone blames GW for everything, you'd think he walks on
water ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Eeyore wrote:


Joerg wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm


Might that by any chance change once the oil and natural gas reserves of
Norway are tapped out? Value addition is fairly easy as long as you can
pump the goods out of the North Sea.


It just goes to show how worthless such studies can be. You'll also find that some (notably small) countries have very
high per-capita GDPs based on their provision of high value services like banking. That doesn't seem to have much to do
with 'productivity' in the traditonal sense to me.

That the French are on par with USA intruiged me though. It kind of kills the popular US myth about 'socialism' being
anti-business.


Socialism is anti-business. Also, they are definitely not on par WRT
services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most certainly
so in the UK.


Do some of the european countries actually want old people to die?


I've heard some stories about certain procedures "not being done" on
people over certain age limits.


I haven't.



That can be a real bummer if, like our
former neighbor in Germany, you are around 80 but have the fitness of a
60 year old. This guy is still an active hunter and can leave some
younger lads in the dust on longer hikes.


I can't believe doctors would discriminate against a healthy individual.


Well, mostly I've heard it from the UK. Don't remember the links since
it was more than a year ago but this might get you started. It's from
2000 but according to what people told me it seems not to have changed much:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/750494.stm


--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:


Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm

...Jim Thompson

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed
economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the
highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States
(US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm


Might that by any chance change once the oil and natural gas reserves of
Norway are tapped out? Value addition is fairly easy as long as you can
pump the goods out of the North Sea.


It just goes to show how worthless such studies can be. You'll also find that some (notably small) countries have very
high per-capita GDPs based on their provision of high value services like banking. That doesn't seem to have much to do
with 'productivity' in the traditonal sense to me.

That the French are on par with USA intruiged me though. It kind of kills the popular US myth about 'socialism' being
anti-business.


Socialism is anti-business.


So how do you explain the equal productivity ? Of course Europe isn't full-blown Socialist of course (despite the ranting of
some loonies here). We've simply adopted the best bits for our social policies.


It's not quite equal :-)



Also, they are definitely not on par WRT services such as health care. If you get really sick over there your
chances of dying are quite a bit higher than in the US. Most certainly so in the UK.


Overall, people actually tend to live longer lives in Europe.


Any links? But you may be right, many people in the US have a problem
with obesity and lack of exercise.


So, what's your life expectancy in the USA if you get seriously sick and don't have a private medical insurance policy ?
That's something like 25% of the US population.


The serioulsy sick are always treated, whether they are covered or not.
It's the law and hospitals stick to that law.


Also, I gather that your popular HMO policies restrict the treatment available to you.


Mine does not. In fact, I know people insured with my HMO (Kaiser) that
got PET scans authorized within the hour after finding a speck of
cancer. The stories I've heard from European cancer patients paint a
very different picture.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Eeyore wrote:


Joerg wrote:


Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:


Pasteur comes to mind because of the Pasteur Institute, you might get a
clue. They rival any US medical research institution in productivity and
contributions to the state of the knowledge. France possesses some of
the most brilliant people in the world, and these are French ethnics and
not imports. There is no "used to be" to it.

So, then, why is the cancer mortality rate higher there?


Why is overall US mortality higher than say, Iran ?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2066rank.html


And the UK's even higher yet?


According to that particular table. The point is that narrowly and selectively choosing
numbers can say whatever you want.


Got any better links, here?



Probably because Iranians live on
healthier food. So far I haven't met an Iranian immigrant who was
overweight at a young age. Those who came with their parents or were
born here, very different story. Same for other countries. Turkey isn't
on the list but folks from there told me of relatives that are around
100 and totally healthy, doing hardcore farming work (!), often despite
a bad habit of smoking. However, they never ate a single Snicker's bar
in their whole life because you couldn't buy them out in the country.


That's probably a very large part of it.



Long story short we've got to give up our cheeseburgers and you guys
have to give up the bangers ;-)


I'd suggest go easy on processed foods generally. You can actually make very healthy
burgers and sausages but not a healthy chicken (Mc)nugget for example.


Yep, we never buy cooked burgers. Not even pre-pressed patties. All made
from scratch and then barbequed by yours truly.



You might also ask what comparative incidence of cancer is. I doubt they're the
same.


Doesn't make much of a difference. You get a certain kind of cancer, you
treat it, then look at the long term survivals. Breast cancer is breast
cancer, no matter which country. Given a large enough number (not always
the case in some medical "studies") you'll have quite a reliable
indicator of how good the system works in a given country.

For example, one of the things I noticed when coming to the US: When
someone got cancer in Europe they had to fight hard to get the doc to
prescribe and the health insurers to pay for a PET scan. Here in the US
they usually send you to the next PET scan site instantly.


And the widespread use of 'scans' (are they all really needed) is one reason your health
care costs so much it seems. Is a PET scan even the most appropriate thing ?


I'd say the posted recovery rates speak volumes. Yes, a PET scan is a
very powerful tool. Currently I wouldn't know any better tools for
localized cancer. Sure, it is expensive. But I'd rather pay somewhat
higher premiums knowing it's there should I ever need it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Ross Herbert wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:37:47 GMT, Joerg
wrote:


Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Joerg wrote:


Joel Kolstad wrote:



Thanks for the response, Joerg; it's certainly a somewhat

different view than

I'm used to. I'm still thinking those $0.99 frozen dinners are

cheaper, but I

will pay some more attention next time I'm at a grocery store and

try to make

a valid comparison.


Also, take a close look at the nutritional value of that $0.99

frozen

dinner. But sit down before you do ;-)

This week's specials as an example:
http://www.raleys.com/apps/svngs/svngs.jsp#Fine%20Meats

Pork loin for $2.28/lbs or sirloin steak for $3.47/lbs is certainly

not

something you can find at any fast food place. You've got to cook

your

own. Else it'll get really expensive or people will have to settle

for

pre-pressed patties from who-knows-where, topped with cheese where

the

saturated fats make the cholesterol reading peg.

Even if in a rush I'll barbeque. Just take vellum pad and pencil to

the

barbie, of the whole laptop if you must. With some practice it's as

easy

as keeping the wood stove going.



Some of the frozen vegetables are a good deal. One of my

favorite is

a pound bag of sliced and cleaned red, green and yellow peppers,

with

some pieces of onion for $1.29. I can't buy them fresh for that

price,

don't have to endure the pain of slicing them, or get rid of the

scraps.

I don't have to use more than i need to keep it from going bad, or

spend

time looking for good peppers at produce stands. They are sold as

a

stir fry, but I use them in Chili, with potatoes, and in vegetable

soup.

We like the long Mexican peppers. Sliced in half, spiced, then

lightly

roasted on the barbeque. The bill or materials for that comes to

around

two quarters ;-)

Also good: Jalapenos scraped out, stuff with cheese, placed on a

skewer

and then slowly roasted over indirect charcoal heat. If anyone has a,
ahem, slight digestive block, that ought to fix it. Or as one of my
former bosses put it, it burns twice.



Stop it... stop it now, I say!!!!


Ok, ok ;-)

Should I talk about what we cook in the smoker?


My mouth is watering at the thought of it all :-)

It is interesting comparing prices though. Those meat prices from
Raley's look pretty good to me compared to our local supermarket.
http://woolworths.smedia.com.au/acti...ecatalogue/wa/
these are weekly specials and you can see the normal prices.


Requires flash player :-(

Tell them to hire a new web designer who knows how to do it right.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:11:35 GMT, Joerg
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:


Joerg wrote:


Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:


Pasteur comes to mind because of the Pasteur Institute, you might get a
clue. They rival any US medical research institution in productivity and
contributions to the state of the knowledge. France possesses some of
the most brilliant people in the world, and these are French ethnics and
not imports. There is no "used to be" to it.

So, then, why is the cancer mortality rate higher there?


Why is overall US mortality higher than say, Iran ?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2066rank.html


And the UK's even higher yet?


According to that particular table. The point is that narrowly and selectively choosing
numbers can say whatever you want.


Got any better links, here?



Probably because Iranians live on
healthier food. So far I haven't met an Iranian immigrant who was
overweight at a young age. Those who came with their parents or were
born here, very different story. Same for other countries. Turkey isn't
on the list but folks from there told me of relatives that are around
100 and totally healthy, doing hardcore farming work (!), often despite
a bad habit of smoking. However, they never ate a single Snicker's bar
in their whole life because you couldn't buy them out in the country.


That's probably a very large part of it.



Long story short we've got to give up our cheeseburgers and you guys
have to give up the bangers ;-)


I'd suggest go easy on processed foods generally. You can actually make very healthy
burgers and sausages but not a healthy chicken (Mc)nugget for example.


Yep, we never buy cooked burgers. Not even pre-pressed patties. All made
from scratch and then barbequed by yours truly.



You might also ask what comparative incidence of cancer is. I doubt they're the
same.


Doesn't make much of a difference. You get a certain kind of cancer, you
treat it, then look at the long term survivals. Breast cancer is breast
cancer, no matter which country. Given a large enough number (not always
the case in some medical "studies") you'll have quite a reliable
indicator of how good the system works in a given country.

For example, one of the things I noticed when coming to the US: When
someone got cancer in Europe they had to fight hard to get the doc to
prescribe and the health insurers to pay for a PET scan. Here in the US
they usually send you to the next PET scan site instantly.


And the widespread use of 'scans' (are they all really needed) is one reason your health
care costs so much it seems. Is a PET scan even the most appropriate thing ?


I'd say the posted recovery rates speak volumes. Yes, a PET scan is a
very powerful tool. Currently I wouldn't know any better tools for
localized cancer. Sure, it is expensive. But I'd rather pay somewhat
higher premiums knowing it's there should I ever need it.

A place around the corner from here does MRI scans on pets..


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:11:35 GMT, Joerg
wrote:


Eeyore wrote:


Joerg wrote:



Eeyore wrote:


Joerg wrote:


Fred Bloggs wrote:



Pasteur comes to mind because of the Pasteur Institute, you might get a
clue. They rival any US medical research institution in productivity and
contributions to the state of the knowledge. France possesses some of
the most brilliant people in the world, and these are French ethnics and
not imports. There is no "used to be" to it.

So, then, why is the cancer mortality rate higher there?


Why is overall US mortality higher than say, Iran ?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2066rank.html


And the UK's even higher yet?


According to that particular table. The point is that narrowly and selectively choosing
numbers can say whatever you want.


Got any better links, here?



Probably because Iranians live on
healthier food. So far I haven't met an Iranian immigrant who was
overweight at a young age. Those who came with their parents or were
born here, very different story. Same for other countries. Turkey isn't
on the list but folks from there told me of relatives that are around
100 and totally healthy, doing hardcore farming work (!), often despite
a bad habit of smoking. However, they never ate a single Snicker's bar
in their whole life because you couldn't buy them out in the country.


That's probably a very large part of it.




Long story short we've got to give up our cheeseburgers and you guys
have to give up the bangers ;-)


I'd suggest go easy on processed foods generally. You can actually make very healthy
burgers and sausages but not a healthy chicken (Mc)nugget for example.


Yep, we never buy cooked burgers. Not even pre-pressed patties. All made

from scratch and then barbequed by yours truly.


You might also ask what comparative incidence of cancer is. I doubt they're the
same.


Doesn't make much of a difference. You get a certain kind of cancer, you
treat it, then look at the long term survivals. Breast cancer is breast
cancer, no matter which country. Given a large enough number (not always
the case in some medical "studies") you'll have quite a reliable
indicator of how good the system works in a given country.

For example, one of the things I noticed when coming to the US: When
someone got cancer in Europe they had to fight hard to get the doc to
prescribe and the health insurers to pay for a PET scan. Here in the US
they usually send you to the next PET scan site instantly.


And the widespread use of 'scans' (are they all really needed) is one reason your health
care costs so much it seems. Is a PET scan even the most appropriate thing ?


I'd say the posted recovery rates speak volumes. Yes, a PET scan is a
very powerful tool. Currently I wouldn't know any better tools for
localized cancer. Sure, it is expensive. But I'd rather pay somewhat
higher premiums knowing it's there should I ever need it.


A place around the corner from here does MRI scans on pets..


Same here. UC Davis, AFAIK. Dogs, cats, horses etc.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

So, what's your life expectancy in the USA if you get seriously sick and don't have a private medical insurance policy ?
That's something like 25% of the US population.

The serioulsy sick are always treated, whether they are covered or not.
It's the law and hospitals stick to that law.

But they're not given top quality treatment are they ? It's quite limited in scope AIUI. Worse than they'd get under our NHS for
sure.

Graham

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Also, I gather that your popular HMO policies restrict the treatment available to you.

Mine does not. In fact, I know people insured with my HMO (Kaiser) that
got PET scans authorized within the hour after finding a speck of
cancer. The stories I've heard from European cancer patients paint a
very different picture.

I didn't mean just about PET scans.

http://www.google.com/search?&q=hmo+restrictions

Graham