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I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?

--
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carrying a cross.
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On 9/10/13 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


Old people with old computers. :-)


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On 9/10/2013 11:17 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/10/13 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the
filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


Old people with old computers. :-)




Probably a long time. Woodworking, unlike other types of groups, CB
radio buffs, hot pics of Cristina Aguilara, global warming, etc is not a
fad.
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On 9/10/2013 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


I monitor about a half-dozen; three of which are roughly the same volume
as r.w; one is about half the other is 3-5X the traffic.

I don't see usenet disappearing entirely for a while yet altho certainly
the proliferation of the web forum is all that newbies generally ever
see unless they're pointed to usenet by other users.

--

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On 9/10/13 12:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 9/10/2013 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of
other online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several
providers, the traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going
away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with
posts - not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through
the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


I monitor about a half-dozen; three of which are roughly the same
volume as r.w; one is about half the other is 3-5X the traffic.

I don't see usenet disappearing entirely for a while yet altho
certainly the proliferation of the web forum is all that newbies
generally ever see unless they're pointed to usenet by other users.

--


It's dead for all intents and purposes. Even if on life support, it
should be shot and taken out of its misery.

The only people left are technophobes and grumpy old men too stubborn to
change. Even "forums" are old school. There are woodworking groups on
facebook and google+ that allow instant dialogue and video chatting.

In the time it takes to write this message and see a reply, an entire
group of people could've discussed and solved a problem that we'll still
be bitching and arguing about a month from now.
Of course, that's the other reason this newsgroup is still breathing.
People love to bitch and moan and we have fun doing it with each other.

There are several guys in here whose skill, knowledge and opinions I
trust and that's pretty much the only reason I'm still here. If I could
get all those guys active in the same facebook or google+ group, I'd
place usenet in the same time capsule with my floppy discs and buggy
whips.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply



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Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the
proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several
providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only
one with
posts - not counting an occasional troller/spammer who
gets through
the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


It's not dead, it's just being leached off of

http://www.homeownershub.com/

see your own post 3rd one down in the middle


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"-MIKE-" wrote in message ...


There are several guys in here whose skill, knowledge and opinions I
trust and that's pretty much the only reason I'm still here. If I could
get all those guys active in the same facebook or google+ group, I'd
place usenet in the same time capsule with my floppy discs and buggy
whips.


I have firmly resisted Facebook and pretty much all of the web site based
groups/forums. Despite the noise here at times I prefer it to the
moderated/censored groups. Let people rise to the top or sink to the bottom
on their own... censors interfere with natural selection!

There are also advantages to not being in real time contact for things like
this... Read/write/leave and do something vs.
read/write/read/write/read/write/what day is it? ;~)

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On 9/10/2013 12:36 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
....

get all those guys active in the same facebook or google+ group, I'd
place usenet in the same time capsule with my floppy discs and buggy
whips.


This grumpy ol' guy does none of the above (and won't)...

The most active group of those I mentioned is non-official support for a
commercial software product the manufacturer of whom started a
self-supported forum a couple of years ago so they could have more
control than they have over usenet.

I have tried owing to some agreements I made with them to use it and
provide aid there as have on the usenet group for years. It's simply
too unwieldy and takes too long to use the web interface as all other
forums or the other interfaces I've seen as compared to the plain text
and threaded view of a classic newsreader. I've given it up after an
effort of some months--it's just not worth the time/effort required. If
fewer get the help I can offer there by not using the usenet portal, so
be it; just way it'll have to be. Similarly for the other w-working
sites I've seen--they're just too interface-intensive to be
time-beneficial for my time invested/required.

--
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On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 12:36:14 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

It's dead for all intents and purposes. Even if on life support, it
should be shot and taken out of its misery.

The only people left are technophobes and grumpy old men too stubborn to
change. Even "forums" are old school. There are woodworking groups on
facebook and google+ that allow instant dialogue and video chatting.

In the time it takes to write this message and see a reply, an entire
group of people could've discussed and solved a problem that we'll still
be bitching and arguing about a month from now.
Of course, that's the other reason this newsgroup is still breathing.
People love to bitch and moan and we have fun doing it with each other.

There are several guys in here whose skill, knowledge and opinions I
trust and that's pretty much the only reason I'm still here. If I could
get all those guys active in the same facebook or google+ group, I'd
place usenet in the same time capsule with my floppy discs and buggy
whips.


Yeah but you have conform to the rules, here on usenet not so much.

Mark
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On 9/10/13 1:35 PM, Markem wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 12:36:14 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

It's dead for all intents and purposes. Even if on life support, it
should be shot and taken out of its misery.

The only people left are technophobes and grumpy old men too stubborn to
change. Even "forums" are old school. There are woodworking groups on
facebook and google+ that allow instant dialogue and video chatting.

In the time it takes to write this message and see a reply, an entire
group of people could've discussed and solved a problem that we'll still
be bitching and arguing about a month from now.
Of course, that's the other reason this newsgroup is still breathing.
People love to bitch and moan and we have fun doing it with each other.

There are several guys in here whose skill, knowledge and opinions I
trust and that's pretty much the only reason I'm still here. If I could
get all those guys active in the same facebook or google+ group, I'd
place usenet in the same time capsule with my floppy discs and buggy
whips.


Yeah but you have conform to the rules, here on usenet not so much.

Mark


No "rules" on either sites I mentioned.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply



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"-MIKE-" wrote:

There are woodworking groups
on
facebook and google+ that allow instant dialogue and video chatting.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Cold day when I get involved with facebook or google+.

Lew


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On 9/10/2013 1:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Sorry, Mike, but that's exactly what is killing Usenet.

Rec.Craft.Metalworking - completely overrun but political and personal
attacks by people who don't feel they need to follow the rules.


Yeah but you have conform to the rules, here on usenet not so much.

Mark


No "rules" on either sites I mentioned.



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On 9/10/2013 2:54 PM, Richard wrote:
On 9/10/2013 1:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Sorry, Mike, but that's exactly what is killing Usenet.

Rec.Craft.Metalworking - completely overrun but political and personal
attacks by people who don't feel they need to follow the rules.


Yeah but you have conform to the rules, here on usenet not so much.

Mark


No "rules" on either sites I mentioned.


Along w/ the topposters...

I suspect the biggest hidden rule is more stringent spam blockers is
generally the case w/ all I've seen. That isn't all _a_bad_thing_ (tm)
but otoh it doesn't take terribly much effort to have effective-enough
filters that even r.c.m mentioned above is pretty much benign.

--

--


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On 9/10/2013 1:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/10/13 1:35 PM, Markem wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 12:36:14 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

It's dead for all intents and purposes. Even if on life support, it
should be shot and taken out of its misery.

The only people left are technophobes and grumpy old men too stubborn to
change. Even "forums" are old school. There are woodworking groups on
facebook and google+ that allow instant dialogue and video chatting.

In the time it takes to write this message and see a reply, an entire
group of people could've discussed and solved a problem that we'll still
be bitching and arguing about a month from now.
Of course, that's the other reason this newsgroup is still breathing.
People love to bitch and moan and we have fun doing it with each other.

There are several guys in here whose skill, knowledge and opinions I
trust and that's pretty much the only reason I'm still here. If I could
get all those guys active in the same facebook or google+ group, I'd
place usenet in the same time capsule with my floppy discs and buggy
whips.


Yeah but you have conform to the rules, here on usenet not so much.

Mark


No "rules" on either sites I mentioned.


And strangely, some of the really old timers, who participated here for
years, can be contacted quicker on FaceBook (Tom Watson, Charlie Self,
John Paquay, Luigi, David Eisan, among others), so not all the old wRec
farts are Luddites. Go figure.

Still don't feel, for my purposes, that FB is an alternative to the
wRec; and G+ may just be a bit too full of hand tool snobs for most
hanging on here.

Thought G+ was great for a while, can't abide web based forums, and
have always gravitated back here out of preference. Just been too damned
busy to do much but lurk lately.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
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On 9/10/2013 1:14 PM, ChairMan wrote:

It's not dead, it's just being leached off of

http://www.homeownershub.com/

see your own post 3rd one down in the middle


Yep, that is something you would have had a tough time getting away with
back in the early days of Usenet, before the big ISP's and corporate
advertising, when a bunch of sympathetic and knowledgable sysadmins
running BIND could still play hell with a rogue site that was not
playing nice.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)


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"ChairMan" wrote in message ...

It's not dead, it's just being leached off of


http://www.homeownershub.com/


see your own post 3rd one down in the middle



This is rather amusing... I never heard of the site so I went to look. To my
surprise an item I posted years ago about the LI Woodworking Show shows up
as a "Best Rated Discussion."

I also took a look at the Google Groups thing and found stuff of mine there
20+ years old...

It is no wonder the search engines come up with millions of hits (though
there are really only 100 that have been pirated!)

John

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On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:17:36 -0400, John Grossbohlin wrote:

I have firmly resisted Facebook and pretty much all of the web site
based groups/forums.


I'm reasonably satisfied with the Yahoo groups I belong to - except when
Yahoo decides to "improve" it. But I avoid most of that brouhaha by
getting posts sent to my email and replying via email. The only time I
actually go to the site is to peruse the photos and files.

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
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On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 13:14:00 -0500, ChairMan wrote:

Wonder how long this group will keep going?

It's not dead, it's just being leached off of

http://www.homeownershub.com/

see your own post 3rd one down in the middle


I just posted the following to them:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just discovered that you are ripping off posts to rec.woodworking and
posting them here. Without attribution to rec.woodworking.

While this may not be illegal, it strikes me as reprehensible.

I will suggest to the wreck members that they start posting messages
calling out your behavior. Will you keep ripping us off then?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So lets start muttering about homeownershub and their piracy in every
message :-).

--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
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SNIP

I follow this group closely, but also take a peek now and then at Sawmill Creek, Lumberjocks and Router Forum. The wREC best meets my needs for sensible solutions to a pretty broad variety of woodworking tasks.

There's usually more than one right way of doing something and I've come to count on you guys (and gals)for laying out the options. And it's terrific that no one holds back on their opinions.

Larry

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On 9/10/13 8:29 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
SNIP

I follow this group closely, but also take a peek now and then at
Sawmill Creek, Lumberjocks and Router Forum. The wREC best meets my
needs for sensible solutions to a pretty broad variety of woodworking
tasks.

There's usually more than one right way of doing something and I've
come to count on you guys (and gals)for laying out the options. And
it's terrific that no one holds back on their opinions.

Larry


All those groups are floppy discs compared to what's available now.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply



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On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:32:31 -0500, Swingman wrote:
Thought G+ was great for a while, can't abide web based forums, and
have always gravitated back here out of preference. Just been too damned
busy to do much but lurk lately.


Also, the rec around much earlier than most other woodworking groups.
At least, it was for me. Sure, there's many other groups around now,
but being active in them all would mean spending your whole day just
screwing around on the keyboard. Much of it overlaps at some point.

For me, I've limited myself to three. rec.woodworking, Festool owners
group and I regularly look into Canadian Woodworking swap meet.
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dpb wrote:
On 9/10/2013 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of
other online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several
providers, the traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with
posts - not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through
the filters. Wonder how long this group will keep going?


I monitor about a half-dozen; three of which are roughly the same
volume as r.w; one is about half the other is 3-5X the traffic.

I don't see usenet disappearing entirely for a while yet altho
certainly the proliferation of the web forum is all that newbies
generally ever see unless they're pointed to usenet by other users.


Yes, but do you want that Eternal September crowd? Before Eternal September
started, I doubt there was more activity than now. I wouldn't mind if it
moved toward the way it was.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing remove the last word.


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Tom Del Rosso wrote:


Yes, but do you want that Eternal September crowd? Before Eternal
September started, I doubt there was more activity than now. I
wouldn't mind if it moved toward the way it was.


I don't know about the comparison of now versus pre-September 1993 - memory
would certainly fail me if I tried to make a comparison. The old days and
ways always seem to have been better... or at least more different than
they probably are. I don't think there's any doubt that the activity level
across usenet has dropped significantly over the past several years. A lot
of the old netiquette has certainly fallen away, but I see that across the
board - from new age usenet participants as well as from the old dogs that
have been here all along. It's just that the old dogs cry about it while
they themselves are guilty of it. It's one of the privliledges of being a
old dog...

--

-Mike-



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On 9/12/2013 8:26 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Tom Del Rosso wrote:


Yes, but do you want that Eternal September crowd? Before Eternal
September started, I doubt there was more activity than now. I
wouldn't mind if it moved toward the way it was.


I don't know about the comparison of now versus pre-September 1993 - memory
would certainly fail me if I tried to make a comparison. The old days and
ways always seem to have been better... or at least more different than
they probably are. I don't think there's any doubt that the activity level
across usenet has dropped significantly over the past several years. A lot
of the old netiquette has certainly fallen away, but I see that across the
board - from new age usenet participants as well as from the old dogs that
have been here all along. It's just that the old dogs cry about it while
they themselves are guilty of it. It's one of the privliledges of being a
old dog...


the rec.metalworking (I think that's the name) Usenet group is totally
disfunctional. I tried it several times and gave up. This one
represents, at least for me, what I would call a "3rd Place" (or "3rd
Space")--look it up.

Bill
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As long as I can keep typing and building.
john

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message ...

I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.


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On 9/10/2013 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


Probably not very long.

A troll going by the name Harry along with a few others have destroyed
two boating newsgroups. Harry is now working on Alt. Home.Repair. One
of his puppets is posting on this group now. Often playing the part of
a buffoon.

They will succeed here as well because usernet people cannot control
themselves. The trolls simply start off topic controversial threads
and the usernet people go off the deep end.

Sex, politics, religion and racism are their favorites topics. Throw
in some bad language then watch the fireworks.

The trolls can be beat but it takes some will power on behalf of the
users. You simply do not respond to any off topic thread regardless of
how ignorant or immoral it may sound.

Mark my words and keep this thread in mind. The trolls do it for fun
and there is no better target for them than a bunch of indignant old men.

LdB
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O
The only people left are technophobes and grumpy old men too stubborn to

change. Even "forums" are old school. There are woodworking groups on

facebook and google+ that allow instant dialogue and video chatting.


I use FB everyday and keep to connected to friends and family. I added in one group for awhile that was advantageous to a project I was in but dropped it quickly.

I guess if I made a separate FB account for joining a WW group it may be worth it but not personally aware of any such group that would interest me.
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On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 13:09:25 -0500, LdB wrote:

Mark my words and keep this thread in mind. The trolls do it for fun
and there is no better target for them than a bunch of indignant old men.


I have seen trolls come and go, they have been here and lost interest.

Guess we are not any fun in this group.
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On 9/12/2013 6:14 PM, Markem wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 13:09:25 -0500, LdB wrote:

Mark my words and keep this thread in mind. The trolls do it for fun
and there is no better target for them than a bunch of indignant old men.


I have seen trolls come and go, they have been here and lost interest.

Guess we are not any fun in this group.

I am not impressed with the Facebook concept. It is bad enough on the
newsgroups when people (I have done that) respond without completely
reading the post they are responding to. I can image what it is like
receiving a bunch of random sentences about the subject your are trying
to follow.


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On 9/12/2013 12:09 PM, LdB wrote:
On 9/10/2013 11:11 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the
filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


Probably not very long.

A troll going by the name Harry along with a few others have destroyed
two boating newsgroups. Harry is now working on Alt. Home.Repair. One of
his puppets is posting on this group now. Often playing the part of a
buffoon.

They will succeed here as well because usernet people cannot control
themselves. The trolls simply start off topic controversial threads and
the usernet people go off the deep end.

Sex, politics, religion and racism are their favorites topics. Throw in
some bad language then watch the fireworks.


An English teacher assigned her class to write a short story mystery
using profanity, religion, politics and sex. One student handed in a
paper that said simply,
"My God!", said the Queen. "I wonder who did it?"
He got an A.

Is that far enough off the deep end? Is this destroying ARM?



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On 9/10/2013 4:32 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/10/2013 1:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/10/13 1:35 PM, Markem wrote:
Yeah but you have conform to the rules, here on usenet not so much.

Mark


No "rules" on either sites I mentioned.


And strangely, some of the really old timers, who participated here for years,
can be contacted quicker on FaceBook (Tom Watson, Charlie Self, John Paquay,
Luigi, David Eisan, among others), so not all the old wRec farts are Luddites.
Go figure.

Still don't feel, for my purposes, that FB is an alternative to the wRec; and
G+ may just be a bit too full of hand tool snobs for most hanging on here.

Thought G+ was great for a while, can't abide web based forums, and have always
gravitated back here out of preference. Just been too damned busy to do much
but lurk lately.


I agree with your assessments too, Karl. G+ is far superior to FB for the
types of dialogs we're accustomed to here, but try as I might to get into it,
it's just not doing it for me.

I haven't seen anybody here mention Reddit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

It's kind of the rage these days as the up and coming alternative to those
"other" social networks, and I think it lines up pretty well as a modern
alternative to newsgroups. It has all those things that I think we consider
here to be advantages: anonymity (if you so choose), no "rules" (unless the
creators and/or admins choose to lock it down), and a threaded discussion
hierarchy (A BIG plus for me; FB and G+ annoy the hell out of me in this
regard). It also has modern features that we're missing here, like integrated
image hosting, and a rating system that allows you to "up-vote" or "down-vote"
individual posts, which cause the higher-rated and more active threads and
posts to sorta "float to the top", as it were. Pretty cool. There are
literally a jillion "subreddits", and of course there is one for woodworking;
check it out:

http://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/

Of course, if "we" didn't find this one suitable, a "rec.woodworking" subreddit
could easily be created that better fits our needs.

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Default OT - this group is alone

On 9/14/2013 9:47 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
check it out:

http://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/


No interest at all, huh? I sorta expected at the very least a few replies
along the lines of "That sucks!" :-)

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On 9/10/13 12:11 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I read about 10 different newsgroups. With the proliferation of other
online sources and the dropping of Usenet by several providers, the
traffic in my newsgroups has been slowly going away.

For the last week or so, this newsgroup has been the only one with posts
- not counting an occasional troller/spammer who gets through the filters.

Wonder how long this group will keep going?


I am one of the moderators at misc.taxes.moderated, and post there have
slowed to less traffic than here.

I've lurked here since the mid-80's, and it's amazing this group is
still going strong in comparison to many others.
There's a population that doesn't know what usenet is and worse, think
that initialisms are a teen invention for twitter. I try to teach them
that IMHO, SWMBO, YMMV are all old enough to be the grandparents of
these teens.

My bet? A good decade to go.

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On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 19:58:53 -0400, JoeTaxpayer
My bet? A good decade to go.


Nah! It will go longer than that as long as middle agers here keep
turning into old geezers like the rest of us.

At the very worst, this newsgroup might turn into
retro.rec.woodworking and gain new life by doing so.
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Default OT - this group is alone

On 9/15/2013 6:38 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 9/14/2013 9:47 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
check it out:

http://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/


No interest at all, huh? I sorta expected at the very least a few
replies along the lines of "That sucks!" :-)


Actually, appears to be a workable hybrid solution.

Except for the rampant, age based, resistance to change of the inmates.


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On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 18:38:24 -0500, Steve Turner wrote:

http://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/


No interest at all, huh? I sorta expected at the very least a few
replies along the lines of "That sucks!" :-)


I looked at it, but saw no resemblance to a newsgroup. For what it is,
it seems OK.

As for a Usenet alternative, the best I've found is to configure a Yahoo
group to send me all posts as plain text via email and I then respond as
needed via email. That way I need to go to the website only to view
files or photos.

Go to groups.yahoo.com and type woodworking into the search box. There
are pages and pages of groups, several with thousands of members.

Of course Yahoo is constantly tinkering with things, so that option my
not be available forever.

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