On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:38:55 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:59:18 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:



This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter. I have seen
quite a few masters who can't put things together. To me programming,
system architecture, etc.. are like furniture or building a building, or
car repair. You need to build the foundation and work from there.
You don't put the top on the building and then build up to it from the
ground...

Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper.
It's the person.. not the degree. I have seen people without degrees
build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well.
I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...




Meanwhile, in China and India, 14 year-olds are learning calculus and
organic chemistry.


The most valuable degree you can get is the one from "Hard Knocks
College" - and yet it has become almost obsolete in the job market.

Not to small businesses, and by that, I mean from my size (1) to maybe
20 employees. I love people who can think on their feet helping me
with tasks I can't do alone any more. I try to hire minorities, too.
By that I mean single white guys like me. We're the last minority.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

tiredofspam wrote:


This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter. I have seen
quite a few masters who can't put things together. To me programming,
system architecture, etc.. are like furniture or building a building, or
car repair. You need to build the foundation and work from there.
You don't put the top on the building and then build up to it from the
ground...

Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper.
It's the person.. not the degree.

I think there is some truth to that, in which case academia helps
perform the screening. People reveal something of their general
determination. Most (students) also probably learn how to be better
communicators.


I have seen people without degrees
build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well.
I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...




Meanwhile, in China and India, 14 year-olds are learning calculus and
organic chemistry.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:10:00 -0400, Bill wrote:



Virtually all of my students are finding decent jobs.

I'd like to see your stats. What college? What degree?


Good question. I don't think there are really many people out there
who would make Bill's statement.

All I will say further is that one of our students got a job as a
software developer with Microsoft last year.


That's a lot different from the statement that you previously made.?

Where is the conflict? Our students (in this area) are finding jobs and
other good opportunities. I think new graduates, having indefinite
promise, may have some advantage in the competition for jobs.




Perhaps it's a matter of defining what the
phrase "decent jobs" means to Bill. Having graduated 4 kids from
college, I know from first hand knowledge that Bill's statement does
not represent the norm. I don't believe it even represents his
experience...

See last comment.

See last comment.

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:10:00 -0400, Bill wrote:



Virtually all of my students are finding decent jobs.

I'd like to see your stats. What college? What degree?


Good question. I don't think there are really many people out
there who would make Bill's statement.

All I will say further is that one of our students got a job as a
software developer with Microsoft last year.


That's a lot different from the statement that you previously made.?

Where is the conflict? Our students (in this area) are finding jobs
and other good opportunities. I think new graduates, having
indefinite promise, may have some advantage in the competition for
jobs.

I guess if you can't see the conflict in what you stated, it's not worth the
effort in pursuing it.


--

-Mike-

On 7/23/2012 7:35 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:50:42 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

On 7/22/2012 11:36 PM, Bill wrote:


If you are going to run a college, you can't afford to ignore the
beans--or you won't have a college. Colleges have to pay heating bills
too--and big ones!

My son is going to RPI, the cost is astronomical. Fortunately he
received the RPI award. But it just makes a dent in it.

The president of the university has a chauffeur driven Audi A8... one
for each day of the week. Yes 7 A8's...

The school just built a new stand so she can act like Cesar at the
hockey games... But she doesn't go to them. That took away a lot of
grand stand area for her to entertain.

They built a world class auditorium.

The money that they are being endowed with seems to go more toward the
admin side or to build prestige. On top of that outrageous increases in
tuition, it doubled in the last few years or so before he was of age.

I made a promise to him when he was young.. if he got the grades I would
provide the tuition. I put away a lot of money when he was born, and for
the next few years.

The stock market took it away.. I lost principle as well as the early
gains. I wish I stuck it under the mattress. I won't go back on my word,
but I am in serious trouble for retirement. It's been hard holding a job
lately. More foreigners are getting them, then us citizens.

All this makes for a perfect storm here. I only hope he has a better
life than I, and doesn't have the problems I face now. Unfortunately he
is in comp sci , so he is in the same career.


And the ONE carreer that contrary to public opinion, will be the
HARDEST to make a living in over the next decade or two in North
America.

You want a GOOD job? Work on something that cannot be shipped
off-shore. Design and build of equipment is gone from the NA market.
Same with consumer goods.
SERVICING big ticket items, like automobiles and homes, will provide
employment for another couple of generations. Same with installing and
repairing the equipment that is required to manufacture what little is
left being manufactured here.

MOST of the millrights and industrial mechanics are reaching
retirement age, and very few new ones have been trained.
Same with Auto Mechanics. Electricians and other building trades are
in the same boat.
Forget tool and die for a few more years - it's all sent offshore
except for the repair and re-work. Appliance repair is going the way
of the TV repairman - as is computer repair. Throw it away - not worth
fixing. Send another job to China, Maylasia, or very soon Africa.
Computer programming? India, China and eastern Europe are eating your
lunch. Same with tech support.

The Internet will most-likely result in more education options in the
marketplace. That comes with it's own set of issues, but I anticipate it
could help lower the cost of tuition--maybe even at existing instituitions.


I know. I worked for a company that was an early adopter of Indian
labor. Back in 1986 they started.. I saw the writing on the wall.
Its getting very hard to get a job as an American in the computer field.
I have been the only American on my last 3 teams. Very large teams.
I feel like a foreigner in my own country.

tiredofspam wrote:
On 7/23/2012 6:13 PM, Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:10:00 -0400, Bill wrote:



Virtually all of my students are finding decent jobs.

I'd like to see your stats. What college? What degree?


Good question. I don't think there are really many people out there who
would make Bill's statement.

All I will say further is that one of our students got a job as a
software developer with Microsoft last year.


that means nothing to me. I don't respect MS.
Google +1
MS -10

I respect more of what I see coming out of the open foundation than from
MS.. I don't find MS software that good. Unfortunately Open Foundation
stuff doesn't pay the bills.

You only represented one person.

Yes. I presumed that you might believe that if MS would hire one of our
students, that other companies might hire some of the others. Not every
student will move accross the country for a job. In my experience (whose
years are in the double-digits), good students in computer science find
jobs.

I enjoy being "Bill, the generic academic" on Usenet, and trying to help
provide insight where I can. However, some have begun to cross a line,
prompting me from more detailed information about me and my school. I
would prefer to maintain some privacy, as almost everyone here does to
some degree. I also feel it would be inappropriate for me to share job
placement and/or other data about my school, which I don't have anyway.
The data is not mine to disseminate. I have many success stories. I
would have to refer you to the registrar's office or admissions for more
statistics. I think if you contacted the department of admissions, at
most any school, that they would have data to share. Thank you for your
understanding!

The discussion has been interesting. I am always interested in looking
for ways to help students. I think that helping them select
forward-looking majors and minors gets them off to a good start! I agree
that a trade school may be a better investment for many than a 4-year
education. As I've commented earlier, it's the consumers choice (of how
and where to spend).





Perhaps it's a matter of defining what the
phrase "decent jobs" means to Bill. Having graduated 4 kids from
college, I
know from first hand knowledge that Bill's statement does not
represent the
norm. I don't believe it even represents his experience...

See last comment.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:10:00 -0400, Bill wrote:



Virtually all of my students are finding decent jobs.

I'd like to see your stats. What college? What degree?


Good question. I don't think there are really many people out
there who would make Bill's statement.

All I will say further is that one of our students got a job as a
software developer with Microsoft last year.


That's a lot different from the statement that you previously made.?

Where is the conflict? Our students (in this area) are finding jobs
and other good opportunities. I think new graduates, having
indefinite promise, may have some advantage in the competition for
jobs.

I guess if you can't see the conflict in what you stated, it's not worth the
effort in pursuing it.

No, I didn't provide proof" for my claim. But I don't think I
ontradicted it either. Sorry and best regards! -Bill

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:59:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 7/23/2012 8:52 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

If they have less to spend, they either get smaller of leaner. It's not a
difficult concept.

Get rid of the NCAA, the totally subverted, abused, misused, newspeak
concept of "student athlete" ... for starters.

My neighbor's son was a principal (now an admin) when the school
system started having money troubles. He unilaterally closed the
school sports division, offering to maintain it if the athletes'
parents covered the costs. The State immediately jumped in and told
him it was unlawful to stop the sports program and to refer to his
documentation from the state. Sure enough, it was there. They school
would just have to dump a few -teachers- to be able to afford it, but
sports stayed!

The country is being run by damned speaking weasels (attorneys, for
those of you in Rio Linda) and Unions. It's going to ****. sigh

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:38:55 -0400, wrote:




Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper.
It's the person.. not the degree. I have seen people without degrees
build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well.
I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...



The most valuable degree you can get is the one from "Hard Knocks
College" - and yet it has become almost obsolete in the job market.

In today's job market, you have to be able to check off the
appropriate boxes. I know a fellow that is presently out of work and
is having a hard time finding new work for that reason.

He can out engineer most engineers in his field, but he does not have
the piece of paper that says so. Years ago, you could get an
interview and explain that to the guy doing the hiring. Now you fill
out a form on a web page and come up short. In his mid-fifties, it
will be tough for him.

"Bill" wrote:


I enjoy being "Bill, the generic academic" on Usenet, and trying to
help provide insight where I can. However, some have begun to cross
a line, prompting me from more detailed information about me and my
school. I would prefer to maintain some privacy, as almost everyone
here does to some degree. I also feel it would be inappropriate for
me to share job placement and/or other data about my school, which I
don't have anyway. The data is not mine to disseminate. I have many
success stories. I would have to refer you to the registrar's
office or admissions for more statistics. I think if you contacted
the department of admissions, at most any school, that they would
have data to share. Thank you for your understanding!
---------------------------------
What a crock.

Lew

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:53:11 -0400, Dave wrote:




Yes, actually it is. There's a direct correlation between the
education level of society in general and the quality of that society.

But it has to be balanced education. You have to be able to
contribute to society to make it better.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:44:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:




That Master's Degree in 8th century Lithuanian art won't allow you to
earn enough to pay the appliance repair guy making triple your wage.

Neither will that PhD in aeronautical engineering unless you have the
jog-getting skills to turn it into employment.

Getting a decent job isn't a matter of having a specific piece of paper,
it's a matter of marketing and selling oneself effectively. A lot of
very capable people have no talent at all for marketing.


Some truth to that, but the engineer may at least be able to get a job
at the Jiffy Lube while the art guy would not know which end of the
mop to used if offered a janitor's job.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:10:00 -0400, Bill wrote:



Virtually all of my students are finding decent jobs.

I'd like to see your stats. What college? What degree?


Good question. I don't think there are really many people out there
who would make Bill's statement.

All I will say further is that one of our students got a job as a
software developer with Microsoft last year.


That's a lot different from the statement that you previously made.?

Where is the conflict? Our students (in this area) are finding jobs and
other good opportunities. I think new graduates, having indefinite
promise, may have some advantage in the competition for jobs.

I read recently that the 2012 graduates are doing better in the current job
market than the 2011 graduates as they are more visible than last year's
graduates whom have been sidelined either out of work or in menial jobs...

Law school grads are pretty much screwed regardless of which year they got
out... very poor hiring rates due to the over-capacity in the industry. In
theory that may drive salaries and billing rates down... Probably take
another year or two to tell what really happens.

John

Lew Hodgett wrote:

What a crock.

Lew

Sorry, most of my use of Usenet is not as a professional.

It's sort of like Swingman, et.al., not wanted to post advise
about electrical.

If you don't understand, go eat some birthday cake.

Bill

Better off to give the menial jobs to the other countries rather than
the high tech jobs. Code writers are a dime a dozen these days with
most of the kids with a grade eight education. If we could ship our
ditches to those countries we could have them hand dig our trenches
too.

MS robs thee young kids of their higher education by taunting them with
high paying money. At thirty years old when they can't write code for
80 hours per week they toss them back on the job market with no
education tickets and nobody wants a burned out code writer with grade
12.

--------
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
...
I know. I worked for a company that was an early adopter of Indian
labor. Back in 1986 they started.. I saw the writing on the wall.
Its getting very hard to get a job as an American in the computer
field.
I have been the only American on my last 3 teams. Very large teams.
I feel like a foreigner in my own country.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:52:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Yes, actually it is. There's a direct correlation between the
education level of society in general and the quality of that society.

But it has to be balanced education. You have to be able to
contribute to society to make it better.

Of course. I can't argue with that.

In article , zzzzzzzzzz says...


T'aint the high school kids at all those keggers.

It is around here.

On 7/23/2012 9:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:44:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:




That Master's Degree in 8th century Lithuanian art won't allow you to
earn enough to pay the appliance repair guy making triple your wage.

Neither will that PhD in aeronautical engineering unless you have the
jog-getting skills to turn it into employment.

Getting a decent job isn't a matter of having a specific piece of paper,
it's a matter of marketing and selling oneself effectively. A lot of
very capable people have no talent at all for marketing.


Some truth to that, but the engineer may at least be able to get a job
at the Jiffy Lube while the art guy would not know which end of the
mop to used if offered a janitor's job.



A little truth to that, you simply don't go for a vocation that is not
necessary. My son is in a relative secure and growing industry, thank
you Enron. He is a financial statement auditor of public companies.

I never ever understood, even during the 90's, how any one graduating
from college thought that they earned the right to a good paying job
just because they had a college diploma.

My son had his first good paying job offered to him 5 months before he
got his bachelors degree, 20 months before getting his masters and he
even passed all 4 of his CPA exams between the masters degree and going
to work for that company.

There was no marketing at all unless demonstrating that you can work and
go to school at the same time is considered marketing yourself.

On 7/23/2012 5:59 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter.

I think that because damn near every one graduating from HS at least
starts college these days that the bachelors degree is so common place
that it has little value over a HS diploma.

And I totally agree that a masters degree does not make you smarter, not
even a doctorate makes you smarter. I will say that both make you more
knowledgeable but that has little to do with being smart, something that
you are born with.


But because of the belief that a college degree entitles you to a good
paying job, HA HA, every one tries to gets that "expensive" degree and
in many cases the cost of the degree eats up any advantage to having the
degree.

On 7/23/2012 6:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:59:18 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:



This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter. I have seen
quite a few masters who can't put things together. To me programming,
system architecture, etc.. are like furniture or building a building, or
car repair. You need to build the foundation and work from there.
You don't put the top on the building and then build up to it from the
ground...

Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper.
It's the person.. not the degree. I have seen people without degrees
build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well.
I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...




Meanwhile, in China and India, 14 year-olds are learning calculus and
organic chemistry.


The most valuable degree you can get is the one from "Hard Knocks
College" - and yet it has become almost obsolete in the job market.


Exactly!

My son works for one of the Big 4 accounting firms. The local office
recruits directly from UofH, Texas A&M, and UT. The latter are the
much more prestigious of the 3. He went to UofH. Today the recruiters
look more favorable at the recruits from the UofH because 95% of them
work and go to school. They have more street smarts so to speak, they
have the advantage of knowing what is expected in the real world.

On 7/23/2012 9:46 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:38:55 -0400, wrote:




Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper.
It's the person.. not the degree. I have seen people without degrees
build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well.
I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...



The most valuable degree you can get is the one from "Hard Knocks
College" - and yet it has become almost obsolete in the job market.

In today's job market, you have to be able to check off the
appropriate boxes. I know a fellow that is presently out of work and
is having a hard time finding new work for that reason.

He can out engineer most engineers in his field, but he does not have
the piece of paper that says so. Years ago, you could get an
interview and explain that to the guy doing the hiring. Now you fill
out a form on a web page and come up short. In his mid-fifties, it
will be tough for him.



I think you can thank the excess number of lawyers for the fact that one
the average Joe cannot find find a good job with out that college
degree. It only makes sense with cover your bases by hiring those with
a degree vs those with out a degree to help limit your liability should
something go wrong and you end up in court.

On 7/24/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:
On 7/23/2012 6:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:59:18 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:



This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal
sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter. I have seen
quite a few masters who can't put things together. To me programming,
system architecture, etc.. are like furniture or building a building, or
car repair. You need to build the foundation and work from there.
You don't put the top on the building and then build up to it from the
ground...

Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper.
It's the person.. not the degree. I have seen people without degrees
build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well.
I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...




Meanwhile, in China and India, 14 year-olds are learning calculus and
organic chemistry.


The most valuable degree you can get is the one from "Hard Knocks
College" - and yet it has become almost obsolete in the job market.


Exactly!

My son works for one of the Big 4 accounting firms. The local office
recruits directly from UofH, Texas A&M, and UT. The latter are the
much more prestigious of the 3. He went to UofH. Today the recruiters
look more favorable at the recruits from the UofH because 95% of them
work and go to school. They have more street smarts so to speak, they
have the advantage of knowing what is expected in the real world.

Not much has changed, depending upon the department, at UofH. Dad got
his BS, and Masters in Geophysics there, working his way through; and my
oldest sister likewise. My youngest went to summer school there in the
last few years and found it much tougher than the small liberal arts
university she attended full time in AR.

Parents in those days, at least around here, were not predisposed to pay
for college at all. If you went, you mostly worked while attending.

I went to A&M because it was a state supported agricultural/engineering
college and therefore inexpensive ... my first year, room and board,
tuition, books, and laundry left me with $40 change to last the year
after taking the $1000 I saved up from working in jr high, high school,
and the summer before. As an Aggie Fish in the Corps, which was
mandatory the first two years, it was pretty damned tough to spend the
forty bucks in any event.

Just try that today ...

(Mom took pity and sent me a check for $5 in April of the second
semester, bless her little pea picking heart)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 7/24/12 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
I never ever understood, even during the 90's, how any one graduating
from college thought that they earned the right to a good paying job
just because they had a college diploma.


Welcome to the Occupy Movement. Except now, they are covered in
colorful tattoos, faces look like tackle boxes, dread-locked hair, guys
are wearing kilts, can't take the slightest admonish without some sort
of reward for motivation..... and they wonder why no one will hire them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon wrote:


I never ever understood, even during the 90's, how any one graduating
from college thought that they earned the right to a good paying job
just because they had a college diploma.

It has always made some sense to me. The guy that went to college usually
learned and came out with a required level of knowledge - albeit sans
experience, on day one. He was qualified to start at a higher level of
performance than those without that degree. That is and always has been
worth something. It should be. Not to say that the same level of knowledge
could not have been developed via the school of hard knocks, but that route
takes a lot more years to navigate. If a person can come out of school with
a level of knowledge and capability that is higher than that of a person
just starting out - they are worth more money. Pretty simple.

I have seen though, more of what I think you are getting at. Over the past
10 years or so (or so...), I have seen more kids coming out of colleges
thinking they are more than what they really are, because they hold that
degree. In a word - they don't know what they don't know. What always
****ed me off was not so much that aspect of it, as it was the aspect that
reflects the general social environment today. It seems that the idea of
still having to earn your strips (even if you start at a good job and a good
rate of pay) has gone away. They feel today like they can do things more
the way they want to, than the way that the company dictates. Soft and
fuzzy work standards, and that kind of thing. They worry more about how
they "feel", than what they have to produce for the task ahead of them.
They think their opinions should count long before they've proven themselves
to even have a credible opinion. They've been give such a soft and cushy
life with crap like no-child-left-behind (which creates false senses of
worth and accomplishment), philosophies that decry any critique of what they
do (gee - you might actually really only be a marginal performer...), and
all that crap, that they overrate themselves today. Was a time when you
knew you were junior and you knew you had to work to advance yourself. Too
many handouts today.

These guys do have knowledge and they did learn very valuable things in
college. They just don't realize that what they learned represents a
beginning and not an end.


--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:


But because of the belief that a college degree entitles you to a good
paying job, HA HA, every one tries to gets that "expensive" degree
and in many cases the cost of the degree eats up any advantage to
having the degree.

One of my daughters is the living proof of that. She got her undergraduate
degree in Psychology at a very good school in PA. Too bad - not a good
choice of careers if you are thinking about income. She could actually do
well if she entered the commercial market but like most socially aware young
people, she wants to "help people". Well - kiss income good by. She went
on and got her Masters, and her income level has only risen marginally.
Same issue - you get paid by the things of your heart, or you go commercial
and get real pay. Who knows where she will evetually end up, but this much
is really clear - she has more debt from that Masters program than she can
ever envision her way out of if she stays in her current type of employment.

So - you are absolutely right Leon - that advanced degree can eat up any
advantage it holds promise to.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:
On 7/23/2012 5:59 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter.

I think that because damn near every one graduating from HS at least
starts college these days that the bachelors degree is so common place
that it has little value over a HS diploma.

And I totally agree that a masters degree does not make you smarter, not
even a doctorate makes you smarter. I will say that both make you more
knowledgeable but that has little to do with being smart, something that
you are born with.

Someone (T. Huxley) said "Perhaps the most valuable result of all
education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do,
when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first
lesson that ought to be learned; and however early a man's training
begins, it is probably the last lesson that he learns thoroughly."

Someone else (A. Einstein, by one source) said "Education is what
remains after you have forgetten everything you learned in school."

I will say: If I was hurt in an auto accident, I would rather a dumb but
"trained" emergency technician find me than a smart street walker.

Bill



But because of the belief that a college degree entitles you to a good
paying job, HA HA, every one tries to gets that "expensive" degree and
in many cases the cost of the degree eats up any advantage to having the
degree.

Bill wrote:


I will say: If I was hurt in an auto accident, I would rather a dumb
but "trained" emergency technician find me than a smart street walker.


A totally irrelevant statement. One might just as well say that if I were
injured in an auto accident I'd rather be treated by a dumb but trained
emergency technician, than by a passing biker who delights in seeing the
misery of others. But then, I guess it must have felt good to say that...

--

-Mike-

On 7/24/2012 10:43 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


But because of the belief that a college degree entitles you to a good
paying job, HA HA, every one tries to gets that "expensive" degree
and in many cases the cost of the degree eats up any advantage to
having the degree.

One of my daughters is the living proof of that. She got her undergraduate
degree in Psychology at a very good school in PA. Too bad - not a good
choice of careers if you are thinking about income. She could actually do
well if she entered the commercial market but like most socially aware young
people, she wants to "help people". Well - kiss income good by. She went
on and got her Masters, and her income level has only risen marginally.
Same issue - you get paid by the things of your heart, or you go commercial
and get real pay. Who knows where she will evetually end up, but this much
is really clear - she has more debt from that Masters program than she can
ever envision her way out of if she stays in her current type of employment.

So - you are absolutely right Leon - that advanced degree can eat up any
advantage it holds promise to.




My son was extremely fortunate. He nor we had any debt as a result of
his education although that masters degree was a costly 1 year. IIRC
his scholarships quit coming after his bachelors degree. We funded 50%
of that 5th year. I'd say that the college and outside business
scholarships paid for 80% of his college education.

On 7/24/2012 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 7/23/2012 5:59 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal
sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter.

I think that because damn near every one graduating from HS at least
starts college these days that the bachelors degree is so common place
that it has little value over a HS diploma.

And I totally agree that a masters degree does not make you smarter, not
even a doctorate makes you smarter. I will say that both make you more
knowledgeable but that has little to do with being smart, something that
you are born with.

Someone (T. Huxley) said "Perhaps the most valuable result of all
education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do,
when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first
lesson that ought to be learned; and however early a man's training
begins, it is probably the last lesson that he learns thoroughly."

And all this time I thought that was simply a result of mentally maturing.

On 7/24/2012 9:39 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 7/24/12 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
I never ever understood, even during the 90's, how any one graduating
from college thought that they earned the right to a good paying job
just because they had a college diploma.


Welcome to the Occupy Movement. Except now, they are covered in
colorful tattoos, faces look like tackle boxes, dread-locked hair, guys
are wearing kilts, can't take the slightest admonish without some sort
of reward for motivation..... and they wonder why no one will hire them.




Well to be truthful, the first time I heard the comment of earning the
right to a good job it came from my BIL, he is pushing 70 and never
really had a decent paying job. This "right to a good job thinking" is
not a new way of thinking.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


I will say: If I was hurt in an auto accident, I would rather a dumb
but "trained" emergency technician find me than a smart street walker.


A totally irrelevant statement. One might just as well say that if I were
injured in an auto accident I'd rather be treated by a dumb but trained
emergency technician, than by a passing biker who delights in seeing the
misery of others. But then, I guess it must have felt good to say that...



My point was that being trained (via education), and doing something
with that training is more important than being smart. It didn't "feel
good" for me to say it, I was just trying to make a point. I hope this
clears that up.

There are smart and idle people who don't impress me much.
Of course, some of them would say that's not their job.
One's viewpoint is somewhat a matter of religion, I think.
It's not unlike the road to becominging craftman--even a hobbiest
craftsman...

Bill wrote:



My point was that being trained (via education), and doing something
with that training is more important than being smart. It didn't "feel
good" for me to say it, I was just trying to make a point. I hope this
clears that up.

Yes - thank you for that clarification. I sometimes find it difficult to
understand exactly what you are really trying to say.


There are smart and idle people who don't impress me much.

Preach it Brother!


--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2012 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 7/23/2012 5:59 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal
sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter.

I think that because damn near every one graduating from HS at least
starts college these days that the bachelors degree is so common place
that it has little value over a HS diploma.

And I totally agree that a masters degree does not make you smarter, not
even a doctorate makes you smarter. I will say that both make you more
knowledgeable but that has little to do with being smart, something that
you are born with.

Someone (T. Huxley) said "Perhaps the most valuable result of all
education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do,
when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first
lesson that ought to be learned; and however early a man's training
begins, it is probably the last lesson that he learns thoroughly."

And all this time I thought that was simply a result of mentally maturing.


Not everyone who ages matures.

On 7/24/2012 10:37 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


I never ever understood, even during the 90's, how any one graduating
from college thought that they earned the right to a good paying job
just because they had a college diploma.

It has always made some sense to me. The guy that went to college usually
learned and came out with a required level of knowledge - albeit sans
experience, on day one. He was qualified to start at a higher level of
performance than those without that degree. That is and always has been
worth something. It should be.

BS! I will admit starting out that a person with an education should
be considered for the job over some one starting out that does not have
as much education but deserving a good paying job, no way, not until he
proves himself.



Not to say that the same level of knowledge
could not have been developed via the school of hard knocks, but that route
takes a lot more years to navigate. If a person can come out of school with
a level of knowledge and capability that is higher than that of a person
just starting out - they are worth more money. Pretty simple.

Pretty much what I stated above....



I have seen though, more of what I think you are getting at. Over the past
10 years or so (or so...), I have seen more kids coming out of colleges
thinking they are more than what they really are, because they hold that
degree. In a word - they don't know what they don't know.

I can easily remember seeing this way of thinking 30 years ago, this is
nothing new, it is just seen more often with more unqualified grads
available.



What always
****ed me off was not so much that aspect of it, as it was the aspect that
reflects the general social environment today. It seems that the idea of
still having to earn your strips (even if you start at a good job and a good
rate of pay) has gone away. They feel today like they can do things more
the way they want to, than the way that the company dictates. Soft and
fuzzy work standards, and that kind of thing. They worry more about how
they "feel", than what they have to produce for the task ahead of them.
They think their opinions should count long before they've proven themselves
to even have a credible opinion. They've been give such a soft and cushy
life with crap like no-child-left-behind (which creates false senses of
worth and accomplishment), philosophies that decry any critique of what they
do (gee - you might actually really only be a marginal performer...), and
all that crap, that they overrate themselves today. Was a time when you
knew you were junior and you knew you had to work to advance yourself. Too
many handouts today.

These guys do have knowledge and they did learn very valuable things in
college. They just don't realize that what they learned represents a
beginning and not an end.

Now we agree. ;~)

Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2012 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:

Someone (T. Huxley) said "Perhaps the most valuable result of all
education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do,
when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not;

And all this time I thought that was simply a result of mentally maturing.


Unfortunately, not everyone who ages mentally matures. Some are really
stubborn!

On 7/24/12 1:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2012 9:39 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 7/24/12 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
I never ever understood, even during the 90's, how any one graduating
from college thought that they earned the right to a good paying job
just because they had a college diploma.


Welcome to the Occupy Movement. Except now, they are covered in
colorful tattoos, faces look like tackle boxes, dread-locked hair, guys
are wearing kilts, can't take the slightest admonish without some sort
of reward for motivation..... and they wonder why no one will hire them.




Well to be truthful, the first time I heard the comment of earning the
right to a good job it came from my BIL, he is pushing 70 and never
really had a decent paying job. This "right to a good job thinking" is
not a new way of thinking.


No, not new. There have always been socialists. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon wrote:


BS! I will admit starting out that a person with an education should
be considered for the job over some one starting out that does not
have as much education but deserving a good paying job, no way, not
until he proves himself.



BS? Come on Leon - the guy that graduated has already proven himself to
some degree, over the clown that has done nothing more than walk in and try
to tell you that he "can do it". He has already invested in learning - just
like your son did. He has already passed some level of accredation of that
learning effort. And you are trying to say that someone just walking in
with no such credentials is the equal to that? Bull****! So - in terms of
pay - he does not deserve some level of pay that reflects this? You want to
pay him as a rank amature with no knowledge at all? I'm not saying - nor
have I said, that he deserves great levels of pay, but he has in fact
already proven himself to be worth more than the guy with no knowledge that
is simply "interested" in this kind of work.


I have seen though, more of what I think you are getting at. Over
the past 10 years or so (or so...), I have seen more kids coming out
of colleges thinking they are more than what they really are,
because they hold that degree. In a word - they don't know what
they don't know.

I can easily remember seeing this way of thinking 30 years ago, this
is nothing new, it is just seen more often with more unqualified grads
available.



It actually is something new. The cries from the under-educated are the
same, but that's only because they resent the knowledge these kids actually
do come out with. Now note - that is different from their social
expectations. 30 years ago the school of hard knocks was still the banter
of those who did not have that degree. But... where would we have been in
the space race, or the cold war or in any of our technological
developements, had it not been for those educations? Pick your favorite -
Albert Einstein - no degree? School of hard knocks? Kerrnigan and Ritchie?
No degrees? School of hard knocks? The list goes on and on. To derride an
education is purely ludicrous! Those who most decry the people around them
are those who most are threatened by what those people really are.



Now we agree. ;~)

Of course - in the end, we always agree!

--

-Mike-

On 7/24/2012 1:26 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2012 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 7/23/2012 5:59 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are
resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an
eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a
1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to
compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters
degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting
college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal
sacrifice
or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at
with no
more esteem than a high school diploma is now.

That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the
bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is
important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters.
The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter.

I think that because damn near every one graduating from HS at least
starts college these days that the bachelors degree is so common place
that it has little value over a HS diploma.

And I totally agree that a masters degree does not make you smarter,
not
even a doctorate makes you smarter. I will say that both make you more
knowledgeable but that has little to do with being smart, something
that
you are born with.

Someone (T. Huxley) said "Perhaps the most valuable result of all
education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do,
when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first
lesson that ought to be learned; and however early a man's training
begins, it is probably the last lesson that he learns thoroughly."

And all this time I thought that was simply a result of mentally
maturing.


Not everyone who ages matures.




Did you mention age? And or don't think that an education makes
"everyone" responsible.

After the schools and colleges finish holding their hands half still
need to have their butts wiped by some on else.

On 7/24/2012 1:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


BS! I will admit starting out that a person with an education should
be considered for the job over some one starting out that does not
have as much education but deserving a good paying job, no way, not
until he proves himself.



BS? Come on Leon - the guy that graduated has already proven himself to
some degree, over the clown that has done nothing more than walk in and try
to tell you that he "can do it".

The graduate has proven that he could get a degree. He too can still be
the clown that walks in with a degree. And the guy that walks in and
says that he can do it has at least a 50/50 chance of being able to do
it. Almost with certainty a fresh graduate with no work history will
still have to be taught, by the employer.







He has already invested in learning - just
like your son did. He has already passed some level of accredation of that
learning effort. And you are trying to say that someone just walking in
with no such credentials is the equal to that?

I agreed with your statement,
Not to say that the same level of knowledge could not have been
developed via the school of hard knocks, but that route
takes a lot more years to navigate.

And with more years of actual real world experience my money is on the
one that has really proven himself, year after year, not some one that
has a certificate indicating that he has passed "x" amount of courses.


Bull****! So - in terms of
pay - he does not deserve some level of pay that reflects this? You want to
pay him as a rank amature with no knowledge at all? I'm not saying - nor
have I said, that he deserves great levels of pay, but he has in fact
already proven himself to be worth more than the guy with no knowledge that
is simply "interested" in this kind of work.

If the college graduate has passed his courses but has not work
experience to go along with it it means little to me if I have a guy
that has been doing the same thing year after year.
A college degree simply should help you get your foot in the door, more
pay for the same job?? That kinda sounds like a man and woman doing the
exact same job but he gets paid more because he is the man.





I have seen though, more of what I think you are getting at. Over
the past 10 years or so (or so...), I have seen more kids coming out
of colleges thinking they are more than what they really are,
because they hold that degree. In a word - they don't know what
they don't know.

I can easily remember seeing this way of thinking 30 years ago, this
is nothing new, it is just seen more often with more unqualified grads
available.



It actually is something new. The cries from the under-educated are the
same, but that's only because they resent the knowledge these kids actually
do come out with.

I am talking about college graduates 30 years ago thinking they know it
all and deserve more. I hired them, I fired them. And my favorite line
from them was, " I studied that in class", which always trumped the
actual correct answer, in their minds. Asked the right question the
right way they could answer correctly. Change the color of the balloons
that the clown is holding and the odds of getting a correct answer drops
by 50%.

Now I am not saying that all college grads are not smart, I am saying
that the number of the smart and qualified is not increasing at the
same rate of degrees being passed out.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:43:18 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:



One of my daughters is the living proof of that. She got her undergraduate
degree in Psychology at a very good school in PA. Too bad - not a good
choice of careers if you are thinking about income. She could actually do
well if she entered the commercial market but like most socially aware young
people, she wants to "help people". Well - kiss income good by. She went
on and got her Masters, and her income level has only risen marginally.
Same issue - you get paid by the things of your heart, or you go commercial
and get real pay. Who knows where she will evetually end up, but this much
is really clear - she has more debt from that Masters program than she can
ever envision her way out of if she stays in her current type of employment.

So - you are absolutely right Leon - that advanced degree can eat up any
advantage it holds promise to.

Depends on your view of money. If she is happy with her life and
career with low income as opposed to being a shrink with big bucks and
sad life, she made the right choice.

My guess is that at some point she will trade helping people for a
better life of her own if she gets tired of carrying that student
debt.