Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Depends on your view of money. If she is happy with her life and
career with low income as opposed to being a shrink with big bucks and
sad life, she made the right choice.

Or - she could be a shrink with big bucks and a happy life...


My guess is that at some point she will trade helping people for a
better life of her own if she gets tired of carrying that student
debt.

That's my guess as well.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:


Did you mention age? And or don't think that an education makes
"everyone" responsible.

No, I agree. Some people "fight" the educational process tooth and nail.


After the schools and colleges finish holding their hands half still
need to have their butts wiped by some on else.

Most of the ones that remain in the analytical sciences are probably in
the other half.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:27:02 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I can easily remember seeing this way of thinking 30 years ago, this is
nothing new, it is just seen more often with more unqualified grads
available.

Part of the problem is that 30 years ago, people like us with just a
little luck could occasionally find a company where we would work for
our entire lives. That meant benefits, health insurance, sick pay and
everything else that comes with working full time at one place.

That atmosphere of job security doesn't exist these days for the vast
bulk of the working population ~ whatever degree they have. People who
have worked for a number of years at one place are getting laid off
and replaced with contract employees.

It happened to a friend of mine three years ago. (he has a technical
degree) After 20 years working at IBM, he got laid off three years
ago. He's approaching 50 and de's had a terrible time finding another
job. Sure, he's worked in the meantime at places paying 25% of the
salary he used to make, but the security he had has completely
evaporated.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:06:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
The graduate has proven that he could get a degree. He too can still be
the clown that walks in with a degree. And the guy that walks in and
says that he can do it has at least a 50/50 chance of being able to do
it. Almost with certainty a fresh graduate with no work history will
still have to be taught, by the employer.

Sorry, I have to agree with Mike here. (Both of them could be clowns)
The graduate at a minimum, has essentially demonstrated that he *can*
learn and *can* be taught. He's proven that he has learned the basics
~ at least one would hope so if he was hired into a profession that
the got a degree for.

We're talking about all things being equal. And at that comparison,
the school accredited person should win out every time.

On 7/25/2012 12:18 AM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:06:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
The graduate has proven that he could get a degree. He too can still be
the clown that walks in with a degree. And the guy that walks in and
says that he can do it has at least a 50/50 chance of being able to do
it. Almost with certainty a fresh graduate with no work history will
still have to be taught, by the employer.

Sorry, I have to agree with Mike here. (Both of them could be clowns)
The graduate at a minimum, has essentially demonstrated that he *can*
learn and *can* be taught. He's proven that he has learned the basics
~ at least one would hope so if he was hired into a profession that
the got a degree for.

We're talking about all things being equal. And at that comparison,
the school accredited person should win out every time.




To be honest if the person doing the hiring has any experience at all he
can look at the prospect, resume and or application and tell with
pretty good certainty if the applicant is a clown or not.


I am not saying that the grad should not have the advantage of getting
in the door, only that he should not initially get paid more than the
same guy being hired that has 20 years experience.

I am of the school that until you prove yourself to me you don't deserve
more up front fresh out of school with a degree and no work experience.
And during hard economic times I believe this is proving to be true.

My son earns a decent living, good enough that his first house purchase
in November of 2010 will hopefully be paid for next year. Single.

6 weeks after his twenty third birthday he went to work for a big 4
accounting firm, one that offered him the job about 18 months prior. He
started with a group of new employees getting the same pay. The fact
that he got his bachelors degree and graduated summa cum laude, one year
later got his masters degree, and then passed all 4 of his CPA exams
prior to turning 23 did not give him a pay advantage. And with that
fact I told him up front that a degree guarantees nothing, to him or his
employer. It only gets your foot in the door. What you do after you
get in will dictate what salary you will earn. He had no problems
starting at the same salary as the other new hires. He has been there 2
years this October and has already gotten a 10% and an 18% pay raise, so
how that he has proven himself he is making about 30% more now than he
was in Oct 2010.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:14:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I am not saying that the grad should not have the advantage of getting
in the door, only that he should not initially get paid more than the
same guy being hired that has 20 years experience.

Unfortunately, the big thing these days are credentials, not
experience, at least in most cases. Not saying it's right, just that's
way it is.

When I was 18, I could go out and get a new full time job almost every
week. Those times are gone.

Hiring managers are being given specs to fill. Whether they also
consider other factors, well that's up to them.

years this October and has already gotten a 10% and an 18% pay raise, so
how that he has proven himself he is making about 30% more now than he
was in Oct 2010.

So, when is he sending you on that month long overseas holiday?

On 7/25/2012 12:18 AM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:06:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

The graduate at a minimum, has essentially demonstrated that he *can*
learn and *can* be taught. He's proven that he has learned the basics
~ at least one would hope so if he was hired into a profession that
the got a degree for.

You sure about that? Have you not seen the concern over rampant rise in
cheating in the past two decades in school and colleges? Perhaps he's
only proven that he can lie, cheat and steal the basis of that degree,
and/or that his parents are wealthy enough to insure that he gets an
increased opportunity.

We see frequent examples of well educated folks, politicians, corporate
executives, et al, lying about their military service, and CEO's padding
their resumes with fictitious education achievement, and one is to
assume that they were somehow shining examples of honesty when it came
to getting through a degree program?

Not bloody likely ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 7/25/2012 8:06 AM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:14:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I am not saying that the grad should not have the advantage of getting
in the door, only that he should not initially get paid more than the
same guy being hired that has 20 years experience.

Unfortunately, the big thing these days are credentials, not
experience, at least in most cases. Not saying it's right, just that's
way it is.

And I understand that but as you suggested and in my way of thinking
that is not right.

My son did not have to have a masters degree however he was expected to
have his CPA license withing 3~4 years of being hired or hit the road.
This license is required to do public accounting and working for a
public accounting firm sorta limits your progress with out that license.
I suggested he not work for the first time since HS during the summer
between getting his masters and starting full time with the company he
is with now. Get those CPA exams behind you. Some of his work weeks
during "busy season" are in excess of 80 hours, not much time left for
studying. ;~) Fortunately after busy season and during the summer his
hours fall back to around 35 hours per week on occasion.



When I was 18, I could go out and get a new full time job almost every
week. Those times are gone.

Exactly and the kids graduating from college are having difficult times
finding jobs. The degrees are not trumping proven work experience. I
mentioned this before but the local office my son works for recruits
mainly from 3 colleges. His college has the least appeal of the 3 on a
resume, generally speaking. For this particular job they were looking
equally as hard at work history. The vast majority of students at his
college had jobs. That cannot be said of the other 2 colleges. It was
said that the UofH students already had the basics down for simply doing
what is expected on a job, this had to be taught to the other new hires.
This is not to say that the other colleges do not do a stellar job at
education but the students of those colleges are more privileged "these
days" and do not necessarily have to work while in school and don't have
the essential work skills.
My son absolutely did not have to work as much as he did, I covered his
car insurance, education expenses not covered by the scholarships, and
books as long as he kept his grades high enough to keep his scholarships
in tact.


Hiring managers are being given specs to fill. Whether they also
consider other factors, well that's up to them.

years this October and has already gotten a 10% and an 18% pay raise, so
how that he has proven himself he is making about 30% more now than he
was in Oct 2010.

So, when is he sending you on that month long overseas holiday?

LOL, He owes me nothing although I often introduce him as "my
retirement plan investment.

In article ,
says...

Actually, the Chinese have their own Affirmative Action program when it
comes to preferential treatment for racial minorities getting into
universities.

Given the political core of China this begs the questions, 'But who gets
preferential treatment and for what reasons?' and, 'What must one be
and/or surrender to get this kind of preferential treatment?'

"Swingman" wrote:

You sure about that? Have you not seen the concern over rampant
rise in
cheating in the past two decades in school and colleges? Perhaps
he's only proven that he can lie, cheat and steal the basis of that
degree, and/or that his parents are wealthy enough to insure that he
gets an increased opportunity.
-----------------------------------
My thermodynamics prof had an interesting approach.

He taught an understanding of the material and how to solve problems
using the learned material.

Come exam time, they would be open book and he would leave the room.

His comment, if you want to use the formulas in the book rather than
develop your own, be my guest.

If you make a mistake using a book formula, don't expect any partial
credit.

He was not there to teach how to use calculators.

He gave a lot of partial credit.

Used that approach a few years later to pass the State of Ohio
Professional Engineer's exam.

That was a time when personal computers a calculators were still wet
dreams, the "Slip Stick" was king.

My how times have changed.

Lew

Swingman wrote:

You sure about that? Have you not seen the concern over rampant rise in
cheating in the past two decades in school and colleges? Perhaps he's
only proven that he can lie, cheat and steal the basis of that degree,
and/or that his parents are wealthy enough to insure that he gets an
increased opportunity.

We see frequent examples of well educated folks, politicians, corporate
executives, et al, lying about their military service, and CEO's padding
their resumes with fictitious education achievement, and one is to
assume that they were somehow shining examples of honesty when it came
to getting through a degree program?

Not bloody likely ...


Especially in accounting!

On 7/25/2012 11:42 AM, phorbin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Actually, the Chinese have their own Affirmative Action program when it
comes to preferential treatment for racial minorities getting into
universities.

Given the political core of China this begs the questions, 'But who gets
preferential treatment and for what reasons?' and, 'What must one be
and/or surrender to get this kind of preferential treatment?'

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...6&slug=2556773


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:12:03 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 7/25/2012 11:42 AM, phorbin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Actually, the Chinese have their own Affirmative Action program when it
comes to preferential treatment for racial minorities getting into
universities.

Given the political core of China this begs the questions, 'But who gets
preferential treatment and for what reasons?' and, 'What must one be
and/or surrender to get this kind of preferential treatment?'

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...6&slug=2556773

I'm gonna throw up...

Some day, humans will realize that they're all part of the same race:
human.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

Leon wrote:


My son did not have to have a masters degree however he was expected
to have his CPA license withing 3~4 years of being hired or hit the
road.

No - but he was expected to have a certain level of knowledge. Not
necessarily experience. They paid him for the knowledge that he had gained
from his Bachelor's degreee and expected continuted development from him.
What is the difference between that and all of the other arguments you've
made against the value of a college degree?


This license is required to do public accounting and working
for a public accounting firm sorta limits your progress with out that
license. I suggested he not work for the first time since HS during
the summer between getting his masters and starting full time with
the company he is with now. Get those CPA exams behind you.

But Leon - that would be simply accomplishing the academic requirements -
wouldn't it? To your previous arguments, that would not prove that he has
real world capable experiences - would it? So why is that more valuable
than the degrees that you've been arguing against?



Exactly and the kids graduating from college are having difficult
times finding jobs. The degrees are not trumping proven work
experience.

Nor is proven work experience trumping college degrees. We're seeing an
economic impact - not a reflection of the value of degrees. While there are
a lot of people out of work with degrees - there are a **** pot more out of
work without degrees.


I mentioned this before but the local office my son
works for recruits mainly from 3 colleges. His college has the least
appeal of the 3 on a resume, generally speaking. For this particular
job they were looking equally as hard at work history. The vast
majority of students at his college had jobs.

So - what kind of jobs? Sure - I bet a good many had some work/study stuff
behind them... but that is a common part of that college degree that is
purported to be so meaningless.

That cannot be said of
the other 2 colleges. It was said that the UofH students already had
the basics down for simply doing what is expected on a job, this had
to be taught to the other new hires.

This would indeed be a real problem these days...


LOL, He owes me nothing although I often introduce him as "my
retirement plan investment.

One can only hope - as it should be!

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:15:15 -0500, Swingman wrote:
You sure about that? Have you not seen the concern over rampant rise in
cheating in the past two decades in school and colleges? Perhaps he's
only proven that he can lie, cheat and steal the basis of that degree,
and/or that his parents are wealthy enough to insure that he gets an
increased opportunity.

Nice try. You could equally state that the person with all that
experience has been skating through doing the minimum needed to get
by. We're not discussing someone trying to game the system.

Did you not see the "all things being equal" statement? You like to
accuse people of cutting the important text. You've just been found
guilty of doing the same thing.

One could also say that the guy with all that experience should have
studied and gone to school instead of spending his time tinkering and
playing with some technology.

That's what *I* should have done, something I've always regretted. The
experience and skills you're talking about are, no were, from several
decades ago. It's unfortunate, but it's not part of this era.

The best one could hope for from a college or university graduate now
is that while they are learning, they've also been tinkering and
getting some practical experience with the technology.

In article ,
says...
On 7/25/2012 11:42 AM, phorbin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Actually, the Chinese have their own Affirmative Action program when it
comes to preferential treatment for racial minorities getting into
universities.

Given the political core of China this begs the questions, 'But who gets
preferential treatment and for what reasons?' and, 'What must one be
and/or surrender to get this kind of preferential treatment?'

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...6&slug=2556773


That is part of my picture of the issues.

There is also the issue of colonization, the moving Han Chinese into
minority territories/conquered countries to turn the 'indigenous
minorities within China' into minority populations in their homelands.