Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

On 7/21/2012 9:14 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp



It was outsourced - to China.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Technology was starting to boom. Hey kids, become a computer
programmer and you'll never have to clean under your fingernails
again. Make lots more money than dad ever did down at the mill.

Cameras, stereo systems, Pong, and a Commodore 20 became affordable
and it was imported, mostly from Japan. Big box store replaced the
corner store and offered discounts. We like discounts. Oh, if I send
my manufacturing off shore, I can offer discounts and sell cheaper
too. Yay, now we get all that new technology cheaper than ever.

We want cheap. We demand cheap.

Hey, why is that factory torn down and another shopping mall going up?
Great, it will have a big store that sells stuff from China.

Need a house? 0% down and low interest for the first five years.
Sure, you can afford it and can re-finance later.

Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp


It's an interesting article, but it just causes me to worry a bit more
about our country in general. I've always found it strange that our
"popular culture" gets away with being so much at odds with our nation's
real needs. I guess we have a very successul entertainment industry.

How will our nation cope with an apparently declining middle class?
Thinking it through, there is plenty to be concerned about.

As I've said here before, to me it seems that the major political
parties stand by their interests selfishly. This just seems to add more
fuel to the problem above. For instance, wealthy people may not wish to
help pay for better public schools.

I've written this message at least 3 times so far, so I'm going to have
to finish for now and move on, and maybe come back if I'm somehow
persuaded. In the meantime, Go USA! : )

Bill

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s
or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should
actually teach and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly
reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

Technology was starting to boom. Hey kids, become a computer
programmer and you'll never have to clean under your fingernails
again. Make lots more money than dad ever did down at the mill.

Cameras, stereo systems, Pong, and a Commodore 20 became affordable
and it was imported, mostly from Japan. Big box store replaced the
corner store and offered discounts. We like discounts. Oh, if I send
my manufacturing off shore, I can offer discounts and sell cheaper
too. Yay, now we get all that new technology cheaper than ever.

We want cheap. We demand cheap.

We also demand good, if not cheap. That's something that went missing in the
'70s and '80s.

Hey, why is that factory torn down and another shopping mall going up?
Great, it will have a big store that sells stuff from China.

Need a house? 0% down and low interest for the first five years.
Sure, you can afford it and can re-finance later.

Money is just about free now. What's that got us?

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:37:49 -0400, Bill wrote:

Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp


It's an interesting article, but it just causes me to worry a bit more
about our country in general. I've always found it strange that our
"popular culture" gets away with being so much at odds with our nation's
real needs. I guess we have a very successul entertainment industry.

The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?

How will our nation cope with an apparently declining middle class?
Thinking it through, there is plenty to be concerned about.

The middle class can't exist in the US without the entrepreneur class. You
know, those people who "didn't do it themselves".

As I've said here before, to me it seems that the major political
parties stand by their interests selfishly. This just seems to add more
fuel to the problem above. For instance, wealthy people may not wish to
help pay for better public schools.

They certainly don't want to pay for worse ones. ...and that's what we're
getting. Most I know on the right are quite at ease with the idea of "charter
schools" and they aren't free.

I've written this message at least 3 times so far, so I'm going to have
to finish for now and move on, and maybe come back if I'm somehow
persuaded. In the meantime, Go USA! : )

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s
or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should
actually teach

What do you think they are doing? Times have already changed.

and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly
reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

May as well get rid of auto financing while you're at it.
And mortgages too--they are evil!

If you wanted to improve the economics, you might have colleges screen
students and turn away one they expect might not be as competitive
following graduation. But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

Maybe students should talk to an advisor (perhaps mom or dad?) before
they choose a college and a major? All 18 year-olds respect the
opinions of their parents, don't they? Caveat emptor.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:37:49 -0400, Bill wrote:

Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp


It's an interesting article, but it just causes me to worry a bit more
about our country in general. I've always found it strange that our
"popular culture" gets away with being so much at odds with our nation's
real needs. I guess we have a very successul entertainment industry.

The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?

I expect a government "for the people". When I was a little kid I
expected people to exhibit restraint/discipline and to work hard for
their own best interests and to share with others in need. I expected
everyone would want to look out for the environment. I was naive in
some ways.



How will our nation cope with an apparently declining middle class?
Thinking it through, there is plenty to be concerned about.

The middle class can't exist in the US without the entrepreneur class. You
know, those people who "didn't do it themselves".

As I've said here before, to me it seems that the major political
parties stand by their interests selfishly. This just seems to add more
fuel to the problem above. For instance, wealthy people may not wish to
help pay for better public schools.

They certainly don't want to pay for worse ones. ...and that's what we're
getting. Most I know on the right are quite at ease with the idea of "charter
schools" and they aren't free.

I've written this message at least 3 times so far, so I'm going to have
to finish for now and move on, and maybe come back if I'm somehow
persuaded. In the meantime, Go USA! : )

" wrote in
:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times
equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in
craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...-to-the-crafts
manship-spirit-essay.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after
the '60s or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors
should actually teach and student loans should be abolished (or at
least greatly reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

I think we should emphasize ability more. Guess what, I'd like to make
education more affordable. For anyone who can show ability and
dedication to persevere. Invest in talent. Do reward good students,
good teachers and good researchers. But set limits.

Technology was starting to boom. Hey kids, become a computer
programmer and you'll never have to clean under your fingernails
again. Make lots more money than dad ever did down at the mill.

Cameras, stereo systems, Pong, and a Commodore 20 became affordable
and it was imported, mostly from Japan. Big box store replaced the
corner store and offered discounts. We like discounts. Oh, if I send
my manufacturing off shore, I can offer discounts and sell cheaper
too. Yay, now we get all that new technology cheaper than ever.

We want cheap. We demand cheap.

We also demand good, if not cheap. That's something that went missing
in the '70s and '80s.

We should discourage instant gratification ...

Hey, why is that factory torn down and another shopping mall going up?
Great, it will have a big store that sells stuff from China.

Need a house? 0% down and low interest for the first five years.
Sure, you can afford it and can re-finance later.

Money is just about free now. What's that got us?

Bankers are (wrongly, IMO) in it for the profit that loans give NOW.
Somehow a focus on more long term yields, away from short term results,
is needed. People should qualify for the loans they take out. Of course
that gives the problem of the artrist-type with a good idea, but no track
record (just an example). I don't know how to solve that. Obviously I
would not want to get blamed for somone's inabaility to get financing
because he is from a ghetto background with no track record ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:13:27 -0400, "
wrote:




The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?


The Vietnam was could be avoided if you were in school to be come a
teacher. Some of those teachers became administrators. The results
of that are showing too.

On 7/22/2012 5:59 AM, Han wrote:

Of course
that gives the problem of the artrist-type with a good idea, but no track
record (just an example). I don't know how to solve that. Obviously I
would not want to get blamed for somone's inabaility to get financing
because he is from a ghetto background with no track record ...


Cream rises to the top. Our nation has amply proved that higher
education for the mediocre simply fosters further mediocrity.

Besides, you have to be careful how you spend other peoples money ... if
it hadn't been for the .001% wealthy and powerful at the time, you would
have never hear d of either Da Vinci or Michelangelo.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 7/22/2012 12:37 AM, Bill wrote:
Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times
equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in
craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp



It's an interesting article, but it just causes me to worry a bit more
about our country in general. I've always found it strange that our
"popular culture" gets away with being so much at odds with our nation's
real needs. I guess we have a very successul entertainment industry.

In order to be at peace with the current cultural state of affairs, you
have to finally accept that the simpleton majority deserve exactly what
they bring upon themselves.

Who are they, you say?

Simply chose to spend a few minutes driving any urban freeway in the
country ... you cant' miss them ... just consider yourself lucky if the
miss you.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:33:54 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s
or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should
actually teach

What do you think they are doing? Times have already changed.

Research. Writing proposals for research.

and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly
reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

May as well get rid of auto financing while you're at it.
And mortgages too--they are evil!

....and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger. Oh, well.

If you wanted to improve the economics, you might have colleges screen
students and turn away one they expect might not be as competitive
following graduation. But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

Following graduation? How about turning away those who can't even get there
without dumbing down the entire system? Ramedeal reading in college?

Maybe students should talk to an advisor (perhaps mom or dad?) before
they choose a college and a major? All 18 year-olds respect the
opinions of their parents, don't they? Caveat emptor.

Perhaps require an "employment 101" course. Though, if effective, it would
dry up a lot of departments. The faculty wouldn't allow that to happen.

John Grossbohlin wrote:


Home Depot has come to the realization that things need to be
simplified, or dumbed down, or that contractors need to be
available, or they'll lose sales...


Yeah - but it makes perfect sense. The big box stores made somethings
available to people who in prior times, did not have access to those types
of efforts. Plumbing, electrical work, flooring work, etc. used to be out
of the reach of a much larger percentage of our population than they are
now. I'm not so sure that the article was on target. I don't see any
correlation between the big box stores and any (possible) decline in
craftsmanship or skilled workers. In fact - quite the opposite. I see they
fostered an environment where more people can now do more for themselves
than what used to be the case.

--

-Mike-

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:52:47 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:37:49 -0400, Bill wrote:

Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp


It's an interesting article, but it just causes me to worry a bit more
about our country in general. I've always found it strange that our
"popular culture" gets away with being so much at odds with our nation's
real needs. I guess we have a very successul entertainment industry.

The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?

I expect a government "for the people". When I was a little kid I
expected people to exhibit restraint/discipline and to work hard for
their own best interests and to share with others in need. I expected
everyone would want to look out for the environment. I was naive in
some ways.

I'd say that nothing's changed.

snipped

On 7/21/2012 9:14 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Every time I see "This Old House" on PBS, with the idiotic "elbow
grease" commercial at the beginning, that point is driven home ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 7/22/2012 4:53 PM, phorbin wrote:
In article , says...

But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

The Chinese system of climbing the academic ladder is based on ferocious
mass and massive competition.

The stress of that competition weeds out the weaklings and those less
likely to survive the competition in higher education.

I think they probably lose a lot of genius to the meat grinder of that
competition.

Actually, the Chinese have their own Affirmative Action program when it
comes to preferential treatment for racial minorities getting into
universities.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 22 Jul 2012 20:43:20 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

On 22 Jul 2012 10:59:20 GMT, Han wrote:


snip back to what you're responding to...

I don't know how to solve that. Obviously I
would not want to get blamed for somone's inabaility to get financing
because he is from a ghetto background with no track record ...

Why? Minorities are incapable of working their way up? ...or you
just don't want the *blame*?

Wow, you did get my drift! liberal, but fiscally responsible. And art
for the sake of art is just fine, whether or not dead or almost dead
languages are involved.

Art for art's sake is fine in the open market but with tax dollars, not so
much. Where you choose to spend your money is your decision. What art you
choose, likewise.

As far as students studying dead languages, or dead art, I have no problem as
long as they're paying the tab. When they borrow $100K on their fantasy and
then expect me to bail them out, I certainly do have a problem.

Universities aren't trade schools.

They aren't supposed to be infinite money sinks, either. Like everything
else, they have to provide greater benefit to society than their cost.

I retired in
large part because of the ridiculous bloated bureaucracy that required me
to spend almost all my time with requirements, certifications and
nonsense reports, rather than the research I was being paid to do.

That's what professors are paid to do, today. It really hasn't changed in (at
least) fifty years, except in magnitude.

But
doing away with those things needs to mean that people who commit fraud
get really serious punishment, rather than just being banned for 5 years
of receiving federal funds.

We're on the same page, here! Those from E. Anglia should be banished from
all science.

Indeed I don't want to be blamed for denying minorities their rights.

But you don't have a problem with actually denying them their rights?

How to exactly balance the individual's right to help out of a previously
disadvantaged situation and the right of society for productively using
their resources, is difficult grin.

Easy. Give them help into the water and then make them swim on their own. The
problem with affirmative action is that it hurts both those who can't make it
and the ones who can, as well as those who get displaced (by those who can't).
It's a lose-lose-lose situation.

In article , says...

But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

The Chinese system of climbing the academic ladder is based on ferocious
mass and massive competition.

The stress of that competition weeds out the weaklings and those less
likely to survive the competition in higher education.

I think they probably lose a lot of genius to the meat grinder of that
competition.

On 7/22/2012 8:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:13:27 -0400, "
wrote:




The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?


The Vietnam was could be avoided if you were in school to be come a
teacher. Some of those teachers became administrators. The results
of that are showing too.

Let's back up a minute. A lot of the problem is not the teachers. A lot
is parents that think the teachers are baby sitters and surrogate parents.

Many don't teach their kids manners. Many don't demand grades from their
kids. There was a woman on TV who was doing her kids homework so that
the kid could socialize more...

The other part of the problem with schools is the curiculum has been
forced to be fair for everyone. Teach everything that doesn't pertain to
the 3 Rs... The priorities should be what they were long ago.. Reading,
Writting and Arithmetic.. And Sciences, computers, and social studies..
period.

You can blame that on the stupid legislators... Most of whom probably
did poorly in school. Add many stupid requirements in and you have a
curriculum that can't focus enough of what it should..

Then add stupid admins who are looking for big pay days and ... well
theses people are clueless for the most part.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:33:54 -0400, Bill wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s
or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should
actually teach

What do you think they are doing? Times have already changed.

Research. Writing proposals for research.

and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly
reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

May as well get rid of auto financing while you're at it.
And mortgages too--they are evil!

...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!


Oh, well.

If you wanted to improve the economics, you might have colleges screen
students and turn away one they expect might not be as competitive
following graduation. But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

Following graduation?

I said "screen"! That means before admitting students. Phoenix, the
online university, is an example of a fraud (from what I've heard).


How about turning away those who can't even get there
without dumbing down the entire system? Ramedeal reading in college?

Maybe students should talk to an advisor (perhaps mom or dad?) before
they choose a college and a major? All 18 year-olds respect the
opinions of their parents, don't they? Caveat emptor.

Perhaps require an "employment 101" course. Though, if effective, it would
dry up a lot of departments. The faculty wouldn't allow that to happen.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:10:08 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com wrote:

On 7/22/2012 8:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:13:27 -0400, "
wrote:




The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?


The Vietnam was could be avoided if you were in school to be come a
teacher. Some of those teachers became administrators. The results
of that are showing too.

Let's back up a minute. A lot of the problem is not the teachers. A lot
is parents that think the teachers are baby sitters and surrogate parents.

So there is no reason to pay teachers any more than babysitters, right?

...

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:33:54 -0400, Bill wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s
or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should
actually teach

What do you think they are doing? Times have already changed.

Research. Writing proposals for research.

and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly
reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

May as well get rid of auto financing while you're at it.
And mortgages too--they are evil!

...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!

Student loans should be abolished because they do exactly the opposite of what
they're intended to do.

Oh, well.

I can't help it if you can't follow along.


If you wanted to improve the economics, you might have colleges screen
students and turn away one they expect might not be as competitive
following graduation. But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

Following graduation?

I said "screen"! That means before admitting students. Phoenix, the
online university, is an example of a fraud (from what I've heard).

OK, I didn't understand your meaning. I'm certainly not against minimum
standards but be prepared to be called a racist.

I don't put too much credence into stories about Phoenix. I haven't seen much
information that didn't have an obvious axe to grind (i.e. don't know). OTOH,
from what I gather, they do a good job of finding instructors who have
real-world experience. I am more familiar with ITE (I think that's what it's
called) or DeVry. From the people I've seen come out of there, it's a pretty
good technical school.

How about requiring full disclosure; graduation and employment rates (within
the field of study) at the university, college, and department levels? Publish
it in every marketing blurb.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:




...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!


The present system does not seem to be working well. Kids are
graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:10:08 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:



The Vietnam was could be avoided if you were in school to be come a
teacher. Some of those teachers became administrators. The results
of that are showing too.

Let's back up a minute. A lot of the problem is not the teachers. A lot
is parents that think the teachers are baby sitters and surrogate parents.

Many don't teach their kids manners. Many don't demand grades from their
kids. There was a woman on TV who was doing her kids homework so that
the kid could socialize more...

While I did start with teachers, they are only part of the problem.
The spawn of the hippie generation are the parents you speak of.



The other part of the problem with schools is the curiculum has been
forced to be fair for everyone. Teach everything that doesn't pertain to
the 3 Rs... The priorities should be what they were long ago.. Reading,
Writting and Arithmetic.. And Sciences, computers, and social studies..
period.

You can blame that on the stupid legislators... Most of whom probably
did poorly in school. Add many stupid requirements in and you have a
curriculum that can't focus enough of what it should..

Then add stupid admins who are looking for big pay days and ... well
theses people are clueless for the most part.


Yes, it is the generation that let it go to crap. Our parents would
not let that happen.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:28:25 -0400, "
wrote:




Let's back up a minute. A lot of the problem is not the teachers. A lot
is parents that think the teachers are baby sitters and surrogate parents.

So there is no reason to pay teachers any more than babysitters, right?

...

Some barely deserve that. Most teachers get a decent wage today. I
was looking at the pays of teachers in Worcester MA just last week.
They ranged from mid 50s to mid 80s in real salary even though
starting scales are less.
http://www.worcesterk12.com/human_re...y_schedule.htm

Like many professions, some are terrific, others much less so. Hard
to get rid of the bad ones though.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:24:39 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:




...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!


The present system does not seem to be working well. Kids are
graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

Even where the degree may lead to a useful career, there is no guarantee of
graduating. These debt loads are ridiculous. They're only needed because
these debts drive up the cost of education, in general.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:34:44 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:28:25 -0400, "
wrote:




Let's back up a minute. A lot of the problem is not the teachers. A lot
is parents that think the teachers are baby sitters and surrogate parents.

So there is no reason to pay teachers any more than babysitters, right?

...

Some barely deserve that. Most teachers get a decent wage today. I
was looking at the pays of teachers in Worcester MA just last week.
They ranged from mid 50s to mid 80s in real salary even though
starting scales are less.
http://www.worcesterk12.com/human_re...y_schedule.htm

Not bad for nine month's work and that doesn't include bennies.

Like many professions, some are terrific, others much less so. Hard
to get rid of the bad ones though.

_Unlike_other_professions_, it's hard to get rid of the bad ones. *Unlike*
other professions, their retirement and health benefits are out-of-sight.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:




...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!


The present system does not seem to be working well. Kids are
graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

The ones who graduate in rocket science are flipping burgers too you
know.

" wrote in
:

On 22 Jul 2012 20:43:20 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On 22 Jul 2012 10:59:20 GMT, Han wrote:


snip back to what you're responding to...

I don't know how to solve that. Obviously I
would not want to get blamed for somone's inabaility to get
financing because he is from a ghetto background with no track
record ...

Why? Minorities are incapable of working their way up? ...or you
just don't want the *blame*?

Wow, you did get my drift! liberal, but fiscally responsible. And
art for the sake of art is just fine, whether or not dead or almost
dead languages are involved.

Art for art's sake is fine in the open market but with tax dollars,
not so much. Where you choose to spend your money is your decision.
What art you choose, likewise.

I have absolutely no problem with some subsidies for art for art's sake.
The "some" is rather stretchable, of course. Governments of all levels
have sponsored artists and engineers to build buildings, parks, bridges,
what have you. At times they were nice, functional, pretty, whatever
good adjectives you want. Sometimes they built ridiculous things,
sometimes they built ugly and dysfunctional.

As far as students studying dead languages, or dead art, I have no
problem as long as they're paying the tab. When they borrow $100K on
their fantasy and then expect me to bail them out, I certainly do have
a problem.

When you invest in startups/entrepreneurs/venture capital firms, you
expect some duds, as well as some really good outcomes. In art I'd
expect the same. (Even to the extent that some "investments" are rigged
by the "judges".)

Universities aren't trade schools.

They aren't supposed to be infinite money sinks, either. Like
everything else, they have to provide greater benefit to society than
their cost.

Greater benefit than costs? One would hope that all investments pay off
handsomely, but I'd think that reinvestment would be the best thing that
could happen.

I retired in
large part because of the ridiculous bloated bureaucracy that required
me to spend almost all my time with requirements, certifications and
nonsense reports, rather than the research I was being paid to do.

That's what professors are paid to do, today. It really hasn't
changed in (at least) fifty years, except in magnitude.

Maybe I rose up in the ranks too far, but I have heard the complaint also
from administrative staff, and I have seen the office of the division
head expand like balloons, especially during the last 5-10 years.

But
doing away with those things needs to mean that people who commit
fraud get really serious punishment, rather than just being banned for
5 years of receiving federal funds.

We're on the same page, here! Those from E. Anglia should be
banished from all science.

I agree with the idea, just not the specifics here. As in politics, it
is really easy to focus laser-like on out of context statements.

Indeed I don't want to be blamed for denying minorities their rights.

But you don't have a problem with actually denying them their rights?

Grin. Rights here can be stretched too. How stringently do you apply
standards of performance, if perhaps the subject student has had
repeatedly bad luck in his family and/or health? I know **** happens,
and sometimes you can wipe it off and go on, and at other times you can't
get rid of the bad luck.

How to exactly balance the individual's right to help out of a
previously disadvantaged situation and the right of society for
productively using their resources, is difficult grin.

Easy. Give them help into the water and then make them swim on their
own. The problem with affirmative action is that it hurts both those
who can't make it and the ones who can, as well as those who get
displaced (by those who can't). It's a lose-lose-lose situation.

Surely true in some cases. In others, there is a lack of guidance, help,
supervision, whatever.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman wrote in
:

On 7/21/2012 9:14 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times
equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in
craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...-to-the-crafts
manship-spirit-essay.html?_r=1&hp

Every time I see "This Old House" on PBS, with the idiotic "elbow
grease" commercial at the beginning, that point is driven home ...

+1

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:33:54 -0400, Bill wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:31:03 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
wrote:

Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/bu...y.html?_r=1&hp

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".

Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar
work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not
do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked
on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to
college.

Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s
or '70s?

Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should
actually teach

What do you think they are doing? Times have already changed.

Research. Writing proposals for research.

and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly
reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

May as well get rid of auto financing while you're at it.
And mortgages too--they are evil!

...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!

Student loans should be abolished because they do exactly the opposite of what
they're intended to do.

Oh, well.

I can't help it if you can't follow along.


If you wanted to improve the economics, you might have colleges screen
students and turn away one they expect might not be as competitive
following graduation. But that would not be very democratic or popular.
However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.

Following graduation?

I said "screen"! That means before admitting students. Phoenix, the
online university, is an example of a fraud (from what I've heard).

OK, I didn't understand your meaning. I'm certainly not against minimum
standards but be prepared to be called a racist.

I don't put too much credence into stories about Phoenix. I haven't seen much
information that didn't have an obvious axe to grind (i.e. don't know). OTOH,
from what I gather, they do a good job of finding instructors who have
real-world experience. I am more familiar with ITE (I think that's what it's
called) or DeVry. From the people I've seen come out of there, it's a pretty
good technical school.

How about requiring full disclosure; graduation and employment rates (within
the field of study) at the university, college, and department levels? Publish
it in every marketing blurb.

That's a reasonable idea. Be forewarned that those rates are not
automatically available. Graduates don't automatically keep colleges
aware of what they are up to anymore than they keep the address on their
driver's licences current. Note that a department have 40 student
majors may only graduate 10 students a year or less. The results may not
statistically significant and angle shooters would appear. For example,
do students receiving "work-study" support count as employed? How about
students who go on to graduate school?

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:24:39 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:




...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!


The present system does not seem to be working well. Kids are
graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

Even where the degree may lead to a useful career, there is no guarantee of
graduating. These debt loads are ridiculous. They're only needed because
these debts drive up the cost of education, in general.

They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting
to the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer colleges and
fewer college students.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:34:44 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:28:25 -0400, "
wrote:




Let's back up a minute. A lot of the problem is not the teachers. A lot
is parents that think the teachers are baby sitters and surrogate parents.

So there is no reason to pay teachers any more than babysitters, right?

...

Some barely deserve that. Most teachers get a decent wage today. I
was looking at the pays of teachers in Worcester MA just last week.
They ranged from mid 50s to mid 80s in real salary even though
starting scales are less.
http://www.worcesterk12.com/human_re...y_schedule.htm

Not bad for nine month's work and that doesn't include bennies.

Like many professions, some are terrific, others much less so. Hard
to get rid of the bad ones though.

_Unlike_other_professions_, it's hard to get rid of the bad ones. *Unlike*
other professions, their retirement and health benefits are out-of-sight.


That varies immensely from institution to institution. Many offer very
modest benefits. Unfortunately, the trend (for years now) is to hire
adjunct professors instead of tenured faculty and provide them with very
low pay and low benefits. Having no other responsibilities, they do a
LOT of teaching. Unfortunately, that is a very popular business model.
At least, it's not hard to "get rid of the bad ones".

On 7/22/2012 9:22 PM, Bill wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:24:39 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
....

graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

Think?????

It's ridiculous--these kids are going through school living better than
I did for probably 10 years after graduating. It's just stupidity and
an absurd level of expectations of "need".

....

They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting
to the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer colleges and
fewer college students.

In particular the diploma mills would almost all entirely cease to
exist; many exist only to milk that subsidized revenue stream.

The real schools will continue to exist; the numbers of students may
drop some but there are other ways the deserving and dedicated can find
to finance school as well as simply as noted above, dropping the level
of expectation of living standards, etc. You don't _require_ a new
Beemer and a 3-br apt and to spend every break somewhere exotic to get a
degree.

--

Bill wrote:


They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting to
the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer
colleges and fewer college students.

And fewer people who will spend half of their earning career, paying off
student loans.

And... half as many basketball stars showing up in the public newspapers for
criminal activities.

--

-Mike-

In article , says...

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:24:39 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:24:16 -0400, Bill wrote:




...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger.

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that
student loans and scholarships should be abolished!


The present system does not seem to be working well. Kids are
graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

Even where the degree may lead to a useful career, there is no guarantee of
graduating. These debt loads are ridiculous. They're only needed because
these debts drive up the cost of education, in general.

They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting
to the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer colleges and
fewer college students.

And the question then becomes whether the ones that survive will be the
ones that provide the best education or the ones that are most
effectively marketed and beancounted.

dpb wrote:
On 7/22/2012 9:22 PM, Bill wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:24:39 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century
Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers.
Maybe some common sense would help too.

Think?????

It's ridiculous--these kids are going through school living better than
I did for probably 10 years after graduating. It's just stupidity and
an absurd level of expectations of "need".

...

They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting
to the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer colleges and
fewer college students.

In particular the diploma mills would almost all entirely cease to
exist; many exist only to milk that subsidized revenue stream.

The real schools will continue to exist; the numbers of students may
drop some but there are other ways the deserving and dedicated can find
to finance school as well as simply as noted above, dropping the level
of expectation of living standards, etc. You don't _require_ a new
Beemer and a 3-br apt and to spend every break somewhere exotic to get a
degree.

I think that more high school kids make the trip to Florida. It's not
the college student who is working part time at close to minimum wage to
help make ends meet.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting to
the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer
colleges and fewer college students.

And fewer people who will spend half of their earning career, paying off
student loans.

As has been mentioned, consumers have the ultimate responsbility.
Obvously, not all consumers make decisions which are in their long term
best interests. Probably some of their parents didn't either. At least
the USA is a country where people are free to choose.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:22:33 -0400, Bill wrote:


They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting
to the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer colleges and
fewer college students.

Is that a bad thing? Many students get an education in a specialized
field and never use it. They would be better off going to a trade
school or still flipping burgers, just without the debt. They may
lead happier and more productive lives that way.