B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:

Did you know that you can buy a decent four seat aircraft for less
than what many soccer moms pay for an SUV? G

Dad and I just read the Popular Mechanics article talking about how the FAA
is relaxing restrictions, and how many cheap airplanes are out there now...


It's sort of exciting, and gets the ol' daydream motor running. OTOH, he
went through a flying thing back when I was in high school. He eventually
lost interest because there are almost no VFR days, and the other members
of the club he joined were having to ditch the plane, rent cars and drive
home (then drive back for the plane) in order to avoid getting stuck for
some unknowable time in BFE.

I've been looking at the sky and thinking about this since then, and he's
right. Not that it really matters to me anyway. $40,000 might as well be
$500 quadrillion for all the likelihood that I could come up with it.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17841 Approximate word count: 535230
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Mike in Mystic wrote:

: In general, I agree with most of the Republican platform - smaller
: government

The federal government is larger under the Bush Jr. administration
than under any administration since Johnson.

: stronger military


What do you think about the huge cuts in veteran benefits that occurred
last spring?

-- Andy Barss

Swingman wrote:

: The concept of fighting wars, even broad ones against terrorism, away from
: these shores if possible, is a good one. Sure, it cost's money, lots of it,
: and lives ... but a damn sight fewer of _our_ women and children are lost
: that way. How soon you forget.

Give one fully documented reason to think that if we hadn't invaded Iraq,
any American woman or child (or man, for that matter) would have died as a
result of Iraqi actions. There are no weapons of mass destruction.
There is increasing evidence that any WMD were destroyed in the early
1990s. There is no evidence for the procurement of nuclear weapons-grade
uranium by Hussein. Etc. Al Quaeda tried to kill Hussein, not bond with
him. And so on.

Hundreds of patriotic soldiers have died in a war that was based on lies.
Anyone who really cares about US safety, and the strength and morale of
our troops, should be appalled. Every single soldier who died in the Iraq
war, and in the phenomenally bungled postwar situation, died in vain.

-- Andy Barss

I looked at the OPM site and another downsizing site. The US Civil service is
about 2 million today. That is also about what it was during early Bush 1. It
had been on a downsizing trend in the 90s but 9-11 and the TSA added 160,000
people.

We attacked Iraq so Israel wouldn't have to.

"Jeff Clausen" wrote in message
.. .
Wood prices in general including softwood lumber, plywood, osb and other
panel products have gone up since the start of the year for many reasons.

major snippage

The average WWPA framing lumber index (the price that mills
receive for their lumber) has been hovering near 20 year lows for the last
several years, yet I have not seen any such reduction in prices at the
local
lumber yards. My two cents worth.

Jeff Clausen

--
To reply you need to dig the sliver out.

Away, troll...don't come around here and go spouting off with your facts.
Most people here like it better when you just say it's due to the Bush
administration's lack of a national lumber policy or that probably
Haliburton is controlling the price of wood pulp on the Board of Trade. We
don't want to hear about exchange rates and forest fires.

todd

(Bruce) wrote:

In rec.woodworking
"Leon" wrote:

A typical to work and back trip is 40 miles in Houston. PLUS..!!!!

Plus is right. I drive Katy to the Astrodome area, 37 miles EACH way!!

I have to drive 33 miles, up hill both ways, to get to work

Wes

--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Gee Tee EYE EYE dot COM
Lycos address is a spam trap.

Renata notes:


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
--snip--
pharmaceutical companies didn't put the screws to consumers.


Pharmaceutical companies do nothing of the sort, at least not in general and
in actuality not even very often. They spend billions of dollars a year
funding research to find medicines. --snip--

Lewt' not attritubte to me that which is not mine. I said that drug companies
screwed the consumer. The rest of it was someone else's take.

They spend more on marketing than research of late.

Tell me why an "established', been-around-a while-medicine went from ~
$40 to $200 in about a year?

I'd love to know, too. Kind of like why I can get my VIoxx shipped in from NZ
for $132, while the same prescrip costs 3 times that here in the states, with
shipping.

Charlie Self

"Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit
soft."
Theodore Roosevelt

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:37:16 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Not that it really matters to me anyway. $40,000 might as well be
$500 quadrillion for all the likelihood that I could come up with it.

That's why I'm going halves. While it's still money, 20-25k is more
in my ball park. I've done business dealings with the other guy
before, so the partnership detail is easy. My wife and I have become
accustomed to living below our means, so stuff like this is now
possible.

I've taken lessons on and off for years, as has the other guy. I was
previously renting aircraft @ $65-70 wet, plus about $25 for the
instructor, per hour. A twenty year old aircraft doesn't depreciate
very fast, so we could own it for a few years, maintain it, and still
sell it for a decent price should we choose to. Owning the thing will
allow both of us to build hours for much less money after soloing.

My partner used to think a plane was expensive compared to other
motorized toys until he rammed one of his boat out drives into some
rocks. = 8^( After that, he sat down and really did the math. Once
you buy the boat, maintain it, fuel it, launch or slip it, buy SeaTow
insurance, etc... It's not all that different.



Barry

Charlie Self wrote:

Not all old people are sick. Not all need free medicine. But it would help
if pharmaceutical companies didn't put the screws to consumers. As the

Agreed. $60 a freaking PILL?! For 15 cents worth of chemicals.

boomers vacate the workforce, something that will happen in a big rush
starting very, very soon, you won't have to worry about NAFTA or anything
else taking jobs away. There will be openings everywhere.

IME so far, the boomers aren't going anywhere until they die. I don't know
anybody who has the slightest illusion of being able to retire.

The whole stock market thing didn't help either. Dad, for example, lost
almost all of his retirement money to the downturn. At best, he can't
retire until things pick back up, and more practically he's figuring on
working until at least 10 years after his death.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17845 Approximate word count: 535350
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:28:06 -0400, Silvan wrote:

IME so far, the boomers aren't going anywhere until they die. I don't know
anybody who has the slightest illusion of being able to retire.

Well, now you do :-)

The whole stock market thing didn't help either. Dad, for example, lost
almost all of his retirement money to the downturn. At best, he can't
retire until things pick back up, and more practically he's figuring on
working until at least 10 years after his death.

I was stung, moved to cash before the biggest hit, moved back to the market
early this year and am mostly recovered from the market hit. You gotta
pay attention to what's going on and act rather than simply watching and
shrugging your shoulders.

-Doug

Silvan responds:

The whole stock market thing didn't help either. Dad, for example, lost
almost all of his retirement money to the downturn. At best, he can't
retire until things pick back up, and more practically he's figuring on
working until at least 10 years after his death.

Fits my profile, except I may have to go 15 years after death.

Charlie Self

"Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit
soft."
Theodore Roosevelt

Unfortunately, Israel would most likely have gotten their target with fewer
casualties......

We missed Bin Laden and Saddam.

Gary


"Gfretwell" wrote in message
...
We attacked Iraq so Israel wouldn't have to.

First, I don't necessarily dispute the figure, but can you back up the 4
million to 12 million number? I'd be shocked to learn than there were
only
4 million federal government workers when Bush took office (even excluding
the military). Heck, I'd be suprised if it was only 12 million before or
after.
todd


Me speakith before researchith.......
The employment figures were discussed on one of the network news broadcasts
a few weaks back. I don't remember which one. And of course, the media is
always correct in what they report g.

When I get more time I'll try searching for more info.

Now to post a question elsewhere on a woodworking issue.

Gary

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:

sell it for a decent price should we choose to. Owning the thing will
allow both of us to build hours for much less money after soloing.

IIRC, under the new rules you only need 20 hours anyway.

More to it than hours though. Dad had 100 hours, and I don't know how many
solos, but he failed the flight test two or three times. He always failed
before he had even gotten off the ground. He was a skillful, natural
pilot, but he couldn't get the pre-flight technicalities down pat.

He had to stop flying when I wrecked Mom's car, back in high school. He
never has gotten back into it, which has been the subject of much guilt for
the last 15 year or so.

My partner used to think a plane was expensive compared to other
motorized toys until he rammed one of his boat out drives into some
rocks. = 8^( After that, he sat down and really did the math. Once
you buy the boat, maintain it, fuel it, launch or slip it, buy SeaTow
insurance, etc... It's not all that different.

Depends on what kind of boat you get too. Around here we have lakes, not
oceans. Sea faring vessles are a whole 'nother ballgame, but even bass
boats can really set you back. One of my neighbors is a 22-year-old kid
with the right good ol' boy connections to luck into a primo job. He makes
as much money as I do, has no wife, no kids, no house, no rent (lives with
his parents) and a $40,000 bass boat.

I'd rather have an airplane.

But really, if I had $40,000 to spend, I'd want a huge ass shop chock full
of big, three-phase power toys.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17850 Approximate word count: 535500
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

The problem is if this war had been started by Israel it would end up being
WWIII. We would certainly be backing them and that would put us squarely
against a billion muslims. With us starting the war, citing 9-11 we had some
small plausible deniability that it was another crusade.
Don't get me wrong, I still think this whole thing was a dumb idea. Another war
without an exit strategy any no clear objectives.

Unfortunately, Israel would most likely have gotten their target with fewer
casualties......

We missed Bin Laden and Saddam.

Gary


"Gfretwell" wrote in message
...
We attacked Iraq so Israel wouldn't have to.

I bet his bills to fix that boat will be a lot less than fixing your plane
if you crash. In the event of an accident, his survivability rate is higher
than yours too.
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote
in message ...

My partner used to think a plane was expensive compared to other
motorized toys until he rammed one of his boat out drives into some
rocks. = 8^( After that, he sat down and really did the math. Once
you buy the boat, maintain it, fuel it, launch or slip it, buy SeaTow
insurance, etc... It's not all that different.



Barry

CW wrote:

I bet his bills to fix that boat will be a lot less than fixing your plane
if you crash. In the event of an accident, his survivability rate is
higher than yours too.

Probably true, but boats, planes, motorcycles, they're all three toys only
for the suicidally reckless.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17856 Approximate word count: 535680
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Doug Winterburn wrote:

pay attention to what's going on and act rather than simply watching and
shrugging your shoulders.

Yeah, well, I can't even worry about it at this point. I have -$130,000 so
far, and I need at least $500,000 for retirement. Yeah, right.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17857 Approximate word count: 535710
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

--
Is there no way that you can keep yourself from using this newsgroup as a
place to vent on politics? At least mark it with OT

--
Is there no way that you can keep yourself from using this newsgroup as a
place to vent on politics? At least mark it with OT

In article , "Morgans" wrote:
Is there no way that you can keep yourself from using this newsgroup as a
place to vent on politics? At least mark it with OT

Is there no way that you can keep yourself from posting this same tripe every
time you read something you don't like? At least skip over it, and don't
bother the rest of us.

Furthermore, you've already proven that it doesn't make any difference if it
*is* marked OT, you're still gonna whine and moan about it anyway.

In article , "Morgans"
wrote his usual whine about off-topic discussions, for
the second time in as many minutes, thereby inviting this response:

PLONK

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

You seem to spend more time worrying about it than doing anything else. It
sure seems like you enjoy it.
"Morgans" wrote in message
...

--
Is there no way that you can keep yourself from using this newsgroup as a
place to vent on politics? At least mark it with OT

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:54:13 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

I bet his bills to fix that boat will be a lot less than fixing your plane
if you crash. In the event of an accident, his survivability rate is higher
than yours too.

Probably, that's why most pilots are much more careful than boaters.
G

I can get just as hurt or killed bombing my mountain bike down Mt.
Snow at 60 MPH, but I still do it.

Barry

In rec.woodworking
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:54:13 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

I bet his bills to fix that boat will be a lot less than fixing your plane
if you crash. In the event of an accident, his survivability rate is higher
than yours too.

Probably, that's why most pilots are much more careful than boaters.
G

I was in a hanger today of the Commemorative Air Force. They had a sign
that said, "There are old pilots. There are bold pilots. There are no
old, bold pilots."

Being a rather serious motorcyclist, member of the Iron Butt Association and
having ridden many thousands of miles safely I must take exception to your
generalising. I am neither reckless nor do I possess any suicidal
tendencies. Stick to analysing what you know about.

John Emmons

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
CW wrote:

I bet his bills to fix that boat will be a lot less than fixing your
plane
if you crash. In the event of an accident, his survivability rate is
higher than yours too.

Probably true, but boats, planes, motorcycles, they're all three toys only
for the suicidally reckless.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17856 Approximate word count: 535680
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 04:02:43 GMT, (Bruce) wrote:

I was in a hanger today of the Commemorative Air Force. They had a sign
that said, "There are old pilots. There are bold pilots. There are no
old, bold pilots."

An oldie but a goodie.

How many boaters run checklists every time they use the boat, with
another checklist each time the boat is docked or released, and yet
another when it's parked for the day?

I'll bet pleasure boats have exponentially more mechanical failures
and accidents, per hour operated, than small aircraft.

I've also seen two, widely varying types of personalities between the
typical private pilot and the typical pleasure boater. Anyone who
thinks the typical private pilot has suicidal tendencies and is a
daredevil has been watching too many movies.

Barry

"B a r r y B u r k e J r ."
I've also seen two, widely varying types of personalities between the
typical private pilot and the typical pleasure boater. Anyone who
thinks the typical private pilot has suicidal tendencies and is a
daredevil has been watching too many movies.

Barry

I've done both. Pilots are a very serious lot when it comes to caring for
their equipment and doing the pre-flight. Too often, the only thing boaters
check is that there is enough beer in the cooler. Fortunately, that is
starting to change and safety courses for boating are mandatory in many
states. .
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Kim Whitmyre wrote in
m:

In article m,
says...
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:00:06 -0700, Kim Whitmyre wrote:


I just heard the Thief-in-Chief mention 87 Billion dollars. . .And
most everyone else said that was just starters! It is worse!

I heard the Congress mention 400 billion dollars for drugs for
everyone - including Bill Gates - And that is just for starters. It
is _much_ worse.

-Doug

Rather have such for Americans than fork it over for imperial
ambitions. . .

Kim

American companies are where most of the money is being spent. That money
comes back home. Plus the final bill gets repaid with the Iraqi oil money.
The US pretty much broke even in the last Gulf War and by some accounts may
have even made some money by the time eveyone chipped in to cover their
part of the expenses.
I personally know guys that are thinking of going over there and get a
piece of the pie, specifically, going to work for Halliburton as well as
other companies, getting the oil fields lined out again. Lots of other jobs
getting the refineries and all the surface production equipment repaired.
It takes a lot to keep that equipment functioning correctly with regular
maintenance. I work on it for a living and it is a chore, believe me. With
the neglect that country's infrastructure has seen I'll bet the oil fields
are in a helluva mess.
The figures I am hearing are approching $140K and up tax free just
working as hands and pushing crews. If I didn't already have a pretty good
oil field job right now, I would be thinking about it pretty hard myself.
;-)

--
Michael Burton
Thunderbird Hardwoods
Llano, TX

mhburton at moment dot net

Silvan wrote in
:

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:

Did you know that you can buy a decent four seat aircraft for less
than what many soccer moms pay for an SUV? G

Dad and I just read the Popular Mechanics article talking about how
the FAA is relaxing restrictions, and how many cheap airplanes are out
there now...


It's sort of exciting, and gets the ol' daydream motor running. OTOH,
he went through a flying thing back when I was in high school. He
eventually lost interest because there are almost no VFR days, and the
other members of the club he joined were having to ditch the plane,
rent cars and drive home (then drive back for the plane) in order to
avoid getting stuck for some unknowable time in BFE.

I've been looking at the sky and thinking about this since then, and
he's right. Not that it really matters to me anyway. $40,000 might
as well be $500 quadrillion for all the likelihood that I could come
up with it.


I hadn't heard about prices coming down. I have been wanting a small plane
for a loooong time. Something like a Cessna 150 or 172 or the like. I have
a buddy that lives across the street from me that flys Airbus A300/600 for
Fed Ex and is also an instructor pilot. I may have to do a little more
checking on this. We have some gorgeous flying weather where I live.

--
Michael Burton
Thunderbird Hardwoods
Llano, TX

mhburton at moment dot net

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:

thinks the typical private pilot has suicidal tendencies and is a
daredevil has been watching too many movies.

Oh, don't worry, I feel the same about everybody who rides as a passenger on
one of those things too. I used to fly with Dad, and ride on his
motorcycle, but that was when I was young and had no sense of my own
mortality.

Before I had the really horrible car wreck IOW. The one that could have
been so very much worse than it was, which was so completely beyond my
control. I didn't get injured, and neither did the other guy, but if the
angles or velocities had been the slightest bit different, one or both of
us would have been brutally mangled. It completely killed my spirit of
adventure.

Now I'm just a big ol' chicken****, and I won't ride in anything with less
than four wheels, or anything that puts me more than eight feet off the
ground.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17880 Approximate word count: 536400
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

In article ,
says...
Kim Whitmyre wrote in
m:

In article m,
says...
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:00:06 -0700, Kim Whitmyre wrote:


I just heard the Thief-in-Chief mention 87 Billion dollars. . .And
most everyone else said that was just starters! It is worse!

I heard the Congress mention 400 billion dollars for drugs for
everyone - including Bill Gates - And that is just for starters. It
is _much_ worse.

-Doug

Rather have such for Americans than fork it over for imperial
ambitions. . .

Kim

American companies are where most of the money is being spent. That money
comes back home. Plus the final bill gets repaid with the Iraqi oil money.
The US pretty much broke even in the last Gulf War and by some accounts may
have even made some money by the time eveyone chipped in to cover their
part of the expenses.
I personally know guys that are thinking of going over there and get a
piece of the pie, specifically, going to work for Halliburton as well as
other companies, getting the oil fields lined out again. Lots of other jobs
getting the refineries and all the surface production equipment repaired.
It takes a lot to keep that equipment functioning correctly with regular
maintenance. I work on it for a living and it is a chore, believe me. With
the neglect that country's infrastructure has seen I'll bet the oil fields
are in a helluva mess.
The figures I am hearing are approching $140K and up tax free just
working as hands and pushing crews. If I didn't already have a pretty good
oil field job right now, I would be thinking about it pretty hard myself.

There is personal profit to be made, as always, in war. Unfortunately,
even if we neglect the ethical considerations, most of this profit goes
to a very, very small percentage of "Americans." Ergo, it's a losing
proposition for most Americans.

Kim

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:17:37 -0700, Kim Whitmyre wrote:


There is personal profit to be made, as always, in war. Unfortunately,
even if we neglect the ethical considerations, most of this profit goes
to a very, very small percentage of "Americans." Ergo, it's a losing
proposition for most Americans.

Possibly true, and by this same logic, since only 3000 out of 300,000,000
people were killed on 9/11, it's probably not much to worry about. Why,
that's only 1/10th of the number of automobile accident victims we have
every year, and nobody raises a fuss about that.

-Doug

In article m,
says...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:17:37 -0700, Kim Whitmyre wrote:


There is personal profit to be made, as always, in war. Unfortunately,
even if we neglect the ethical considerations, most of this profit goes
to a very, very small percentage of "Americans." Ergo, it's a losing
proposition for most Americans.

Possibly true, and by this same logic, since only 3000 out of 300,000,000
people were killed on 9/11, it's probably not much to worry about. Why,
that's only 1/10th of the number of automobile accident victims we have
every year, and nobody raises a fuss about that.

-Doug

And even fewer raise a fuss about the foreign policy that has, over many
years, engendered the hatred that the towers are only a symptom of. . .I
guess as long as I'm fat and happy, the rest of the world can go to hell
in a handbasket, eh?

Logic?

Kim

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:57:36 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

Too often, the only thing boaters
check is that there is enough beer in the cooler. Fortunately, that is
starting to change and safety courses for boating are mandatory in many
states. .

A healthy bill from SeaTow can also cause a major attitude adjustment.

Barry

On 21 Sep 2003 15:19:36 GMT, Michael Burton
wrote:

I hadn't heard about prices coming down. I have been wanting a small plane
for a loooong time. Something like a Cessna 150 or 172 or the like.

Check around, it may be more affordable than you'd think.

Barry

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:38:18 -0700, Kim Whitmyre wrote:


And even fewer raise a fuss about the foreign policy that has, over many
years, engendered the hatred that the towers are only a symptom of. . .I
guess as long as I'm fat and happy, the rest of the world can go to hell
in a handbasket, eh?

Logic?

Foreign policy makes no difference to radical Islam - they hate us because
we exist and we are infidels. The attacks around the world aren't aimed
at only the US, but also other infidels. We happen to be the most powerful
collection of infidels and are therefore a preferred target. That is the
logic of this war.

-Doug

Michael Burton wrote:

I hadn't heard about prices coming down. I have been wanting a small plane
for a loooong time. Something like a Cessna 150 or 172 or the like. I have

I'm just basing all of this on a four page article in Popular Mechanics this
month. It goes on about how there's a whole new generation of "sport"
aircraft that are going to be approved by the FAA soon. The Cessna 150 (or
172, I forget) is held out as an example of the old school bottom end at
$150,000, and the article talks about all the $50,000 planes that will be
available very soon. They all look pretty dinky, mind you. Dinky but fun.

(Well, bearing in mind that, yes, I'm pretty much too much of a wuss these
days to seriously think about going more than 8' off the ground, unless I'm
climbing a tree.)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17885 Approximate word count: 536550
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

I'll fly anything but forget the tree.
"Silvan" wrote in message
...

(Well, bearing in mind that, yes, I'm pretty much too much of a wuss these
days to seriously think about going more than 8' off the ground, unless
I'm
climbing a tree.)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17885 Approximate word count: 536550
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/