On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:37:38 GMT, Han wrote:
....
IMHO, things that will reduce petroleum production are good
....

I'll buy that -- IF you replace "production" with "demand"

Fri, May 25, 2007, 10:11am (EDT-1) (HerHusband) doth
lament:
snip Worst of all, I paid $40 a sheet for this stuff at Home Depot,
and then saw MUCH better quality lumber at Lowes (where I normally get
my plywood) for only $30 a sheet. snip

Going by your description, the lsst plywood I bought at Lowes,
cnstruction grade, for shop projects, was better then what you got, and
ran me about $13 a sheet - the good side actually was. I don't shop at
Home Depot, period.



JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan

Tom Veatch wrote in :

On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:37:38 GMT, Han wrote:
...
IMHO, things that will reduce petroleum production are good
...

I'll buy that -- IF you replace "production" with "demand"

Of course, that's why we bicycle or walk rather than use the car, whenever
we can.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:55:17 GMT, Han wrote:


Of course, that's why we bicycle or walk rather than use the car, whenever
we can.

I do the same, and only drove to work twice in May. I'm seeing more
and more folks out there on bikes! Short trips are the most
inefficient, and are actually fun to walk or bike!

The overall MPG on my Tacoma goes up 3+ MPG when I remove most of the
trips under a one way distance of 2 miles.

"HerHusband" wrote in message
...
Mike,

THD has a 30 day satisfaction return policy on just about everything.
You'd be surprised at what they will allow to be returned.

I guess I figured wood was one of those "non-returnable" items. Like
buying
anything electrical at an autoparts store. Especially after I have cut it.

As we all would - based on what makes common sense. I found it quite
surprising when I discovered that one could buy something like piece of
plywood, and return it once we cut it up, but you sure can.


I have a problem with all of the posts here about lumber that guys go
out and buy (... and select from the pile themselves), and then post
complaints about the inferior quality of such things as should have
been obvious when they were buying it.

In my case, it's not like I have many options. Home Depot or Lowes are
about it for cabinet plywood. There used to be a hardwood supplier in
town,
but they closed down a few years ago. Some of the lumber yards "might"
have
cabinet ply, but it's not typically out where you can see it. You usually
have to pay first, and hope there's something good when you drive back to
pick it up.

So, I guess I figured plywood is plywood, and would be about the same
everywhere. Like I said, live and learn...

Plys are easy to see, right on the rack. Fills are easy to see.
Shame on you for not taking the time to look it over better

In all fairness, I "did" examine the sheets in the store. I dug through
several sheets to find the best three in the stack. But even the "best"
had
problems. I also didn't notice any real voids in the ply's on the edge.
Maybe one or two small ones, but I had no idea the whole sheet was filled
with them.

As for the thin veneer, it's not visible to the naked eye. What I
"thought" was the veneer layer on each side was actually just another core
ply. Even after cutting and intensely examining a small piece, I can't see
the veneer layer. It's that thin...

I also had no way of knowing the wood would splinter so badly when
crosscut, until I cut into it.

Hey Anthony - I might have been harsher than I should have been in my reply
to your post. I'm sorry for that. It's just that we see posts like yours
almost weekly here, and at a point you begin to think that no-one should be
surprised by what they get in a piece of plywood at THD at this point.

--

-Mike-

B A R R Y wrote in
:

On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:55:17 GMT, Han wrote:


Of course, that's why we bicycle or walk rather than use the car,
whenever we can.

I do the same, and only drove to work twice in May. I'm seeing more
and more folks out there on bikes! Short trips are the most
inefficient, and are actually fun to walk or bike!

The overall MPG on my Tacoma goes up 3+ MPG when I remove most of the
trips under a one way distance of 2 miles.

Although it is under 20 miles from home to work (07410 to 23rd Str & First
Ave), I'm not about to brave NY City traffic on my bike. Seen too many
near misses and a few not misses, which generally do not favor the bicycle
rider


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Sun, 27 May 2007 11:16:08 GMT, Han wrote:

I'm not about to brave NY City traffic on my bike. Seen too many
near misses and a few not misses, which generally do not favor the bicycle
rider

I hear that!

The only time I ride NYC is during the 5 Boro Bike Tour, on closed
roads.

One year, I took MNCRR in from New Haven, had a beautiful ride from
GCT to Battery Park at 6 AM, a great day of touring, and a HELL RIDE
back to GCT ~ 3 PM. And that was on a Sunday! Now, if I take the
train in with the bike, I'll use the subway to get to Battery Park.

We usually use the subway to get around when visiting, but one of
these days I need to learn the bus system. The bus would be so much
faster when I have to change trains or do the marathon walk in Times
Square Station. I like the newer trains with the electric station
maps, working A/C, and automated announcements.

NYC has a such an excellent mass transit system, I'd also leave the
bike home during commuting hours.

B A R R Y wrote in
:

On Sun, 27 May 2007 11:16:08 GMT, Han wrote:

I'm not about to brave NY City traffic on my bike. Seen too many
near misses and a few not misses, which generally do not favor the
bicycle rider

I hear that!

The only time I ride NYC is during the 5 Boro Bike Tour, on closed
roads.

One year, I took MNCRR in from New Haven, had a beautiful ride from
GCT to Battery Park at 6 AM, a great day of touring, and a HELL RIDE
back to GCT ~ 3 PM. And that was on a Sunday! Now, if I take the
train in with the bike, I'll use the subway to get to Battery Park.

We usually use the subway to get around when visiting, but one of
these days I need to learn the bus system. The bus would be so much
faster when I have to change trains or do the marathon walk in Times
Square Station. I like the newer trains with the electric station
maps, working A/C, and automated announcements.

NYC has a such an excellent mass transit system, I'd also leave the
bike home during commuting hours.

Never got my act together to do any part of the bike tour sad.
Bus maps are free at Grand Central somewhere, most likely at a subway
ticket booth.
Sometimes, the problem with buses is the choked up traffic, and a subway
ride is faster then, depending on a lot.

For those unfamiliar with the NY City system, everything is Metrocard
nowadays (or cash in coins on the bus, where you can get a free transfer
if you ask).

A single fare is good on the whole subway system plus a busride, or on 2
separate busrides. A transfer is implied when you validate the
metrocard, and is good for departure on the next trip within 2 hours of
starting the first. Metrocard validation only occurs when entering bus
or subway.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "HeyBub"
wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it
from the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars is
skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.

Uh, no. The current inflation rate of about 34% compares favorably
with the
^^^
Isn't there supposed to be a decimal point in there somewhere?

Yeah. My bad. 3.4%.

Robatoy wrote:
On May 26, 6:16 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

*Fewer military deaths in six years of Afghanistan/Iraq war than in
8 years of the previous administration's peace years.

Excuse me?

The US has been fighting the War on Terror for over 5 years and has lost
just over half the soldiers in battle as the Clinton Administration was
losing during peacetime in 8 years.

In five years of the WOT, the US has lost about 3800 soldiers, from all
causes (hostile action, training, accidents, homicide, disease, suicide,
etc.), during wartime. In 8 years of the previous administration, the US
lost 7,500 active duty military personell.

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/004581.html

HeyBub wrote:
| Doug Miller wrote:
|| In article , "HeyBub"
|| wrote:
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||| Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
|||| outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it
|||| from the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars
|||| is skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.
|||
||| Uh, no. The current inflation rate of about 34% compares favorably
||| with the
|| ^^^
|| Isn't there supposed to be a decimal point in there somewhere?
|
| Yeah. My bad. 3.4%.

You missed the point (I wasn't comparing inflation rates, rather
perspectives of people inside the US vs people outside the US)

I'm not interested in arguing with your statistics - what I'm
experiencing is nothing like 3.4% - but that may only reflect a
difference between the way the number is produced and my real world
spending.

[ The majority of my spending is for clear hardwood, plywood, glue,
solar glazing, stock aluminum extrusions, stainless steel screws,
carbide cutting tools, OTR shipping, and the usual gasoline,
electricity, phone/dsl, natural gas, rent, and groceries. ]

I wish /I/ were seeing your 3.4% - and (probably) so do my customers.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

I might have been harsher than I should have been
in my reply to your post. I'm sorry for that.

No problem, I realize I'm part of the overall problem. Haste makes waste,
afterall...

But I appreciate your apology. These days it seems like newsgroups in
general have turned into an F-U mentality, so it's refreshing to see a
little common courtesy. Thanks!

Take care,

Anthony

Rod,

If I recall your local to me (Vancouver area).
have you ever tried Shurway(on St. Johns rd)?

I'm out in the Camas area, so they're not exactly "local", but the last
time I went to Shurway (over in Portland about 15-20 years ago) they were
mostly a salvage operation. I didn't realize they were carrying new stuff
now. Thanks for the recommendation.

Anthony

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"EXT" wrote in message
What most Americans don't know is that the US currency is in the toilet.
I
run a Canadian company which has 99% of its income in US dollars. Our
revenue is up but when converted to Canadian dollars it becomes less than
years before. I used to get $1.60 Canadian for every one US dollar, now I
only get $1.08 per US dollar and the experts say that the two currencies
will be par by year end.

Funny how our great Canadian dollar is worth so much, yet our mayor David
Miller of Toronto, Canada's largest city is crying how Toronto is broke.
He
is and will be taxing everything in sight including stuff like putting
a10%
tax on all purchased beer and alcohol.

American currency may or may not be in the toilet, but what good is a
strong
Canadian dollar when our government literally taxes us into the poor
house,
effectively taking away any advantage to the ordinary citizen?

A strong Canadian dollar is not good for the economy. They are saying it has
cost 250,000 jobs to date, with another 250,000 jobs if it goes par. The
city of Toronto has many problems with trying to favour many groups and not
doing any of it well. Hotels are not earning much profit with the scarcity
of tourists, so they are not paying so much on business tax. The city is way
undertaxed compared to the 905 area. I see every day people who used to
complain that their property taxes doubled during re-evaluation, so now they
are paying $2000.00 in property taxes instead of $1000.00, where houses in
the suburbs are paying $4000.00 for houses with the same evaluation. The
differences are still apparent.

Enough said, this is a thread about rising costs for wood products while
quality is going down in the US, not about Toronto's mismanagement of money.

On May 27, 2:13 pm, "EXT" wrote:
[schnipperectomized]


Enough said, this is a thread about rising costs for wood products while
quality is going down in the US, not about Toronto's mismanagement of money.

My company sold and installed quite a few solid surface countertops in
Michigan when the exhange was $1.55. I was getting full margins and
the US customer had a built-in fabulous discount.
I haven't done any serious business in Michigan for 2 years now.
I do get a break buying stuff in Michigan for my business and personal
use.

Robatoy wrote:

My company sold and installed quite a few solid surface countertops in
Michigan when the exhange was $1.55. I was getting full margins and
the US customer had a built-in fabulous discount.
I haven't done any serious business in Michigan for 2 years now.
I do get a break buying stuff in Michigan for my business and personal
use.

Michigan is an economic basket case. And there is a move afoot to raise
taxes even more.

Poor Michigan. Shame, really.

On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:22:56 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Trying to use the mass transit system to get someplace in a hurry, is
a lost cause at present; however, every time I ride the light rail, it
is full, especially the Long Beach run.

While I have no need to ever use public transit, especially since
everything I ever need is local, it's really irrelevant. However, I
can think of two examples where it might have been useful and was
completely worthless.

Last year, we were going down to San Diego and looked into taking the
train down. It was much, much more expensive to take the train than
it was to drive and the only way to even get to a train that was going
that way was to drive 60 miles down into Orange County, leave our car
somewhere I wouldn't park if my life depended on it and hope nobody
vandalized it. Then I would have had to pay for bus or taxi service
in San Diego the whole weekend since ht train station is nowhere near
where we were going and it would have cost 2-3x as much as driving in
the end. Is this supposed to be reliable, useful public
transportation?

Secondly, my best friend was teaching at Cal State Fullerton. He
would have taken the Metrorail to work but they stop running at 6pm,
long before he'd be heading home. The only way to take the train
would have left him stranded every night with no way to get home. It
is faster, cheaper and more convenient to drive.

Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.

No, it still wouldn't make public transit any more convenient or even
possible for anyone. It would just make things more expensive.

On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:55:17 GMT, Han wrote:

Of course, that's why we bicycle or walk rather than use the car, whenever
we can.

Which doesn't help when you go shopping, does it? You can't carry
groceries for a family on your bicycle, much less trying to carry a
dozen 4x8 sheets of plywood on your back. This is the woodworking
newsgroup after all.

Brian Henderson wrote:



While I have no need to ever use public transit, especially since
everything I ever need is local, it's really irrelevant. However, I
can think of two examples where it might have been useful and was
completely worthless.
snip

As someone once said, "There are no problems, only varying degrees of
challenging opportunities".

It is the opportunities that need to be exploited.

Lew

Brian Henderson wrote in
news
On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:55:17 GMT, Han wrote:

Of course, that's why we bicycle or walk rather than use the car,
whenever we can.

Which doesn't help when you go shopping, does it? You can't carry
groceries for a family on your bicycle, much less trying to carry a
dozen 4x8 sheets of plywood on your back. This is the woodworking
newsgroup after all.

Since beer is appropriate for this newsgroup grin, I'll mention we
carried a 12 pack on the bike. It is resting now before we use the car and
take it (them) to a birthday party tomorrow.

(while originally Dutch, I'm not a beer connoisseur.)
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article .net, Lew
Hodgett wrote:

Dave Balderstone wrote:

In some places. Here in Canada, it would have a nasty economic impact
because of the huge distances we have to move goods, both imported and
for export. It would kill western Canadian farmers.

You know, I doubt that.

What you are suggesting is that the way of life of the Canadian grain
farmer would be put in peril, and they would just give up and quit farming.

When the human animal's survival is attacked, they can be very
resourceful and adaptable.

My money would be on the farmers.

As an aside, I work for the largest agricultural newspaper in Canada. I
understand the resilience of the farmer, but I also understand the
market and financial pressures they're under here in the prairies.

I'm not suggesting they'd give up. I'm suggesting they'd be forced into
bankruptcy.

Lew Hodgett wrote in news:Yao6i.19682$3P3.1535
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

Brian Henderson wrote:



While I have no need to ever use public transit, especially since
everything I ever need is local, it's really irrelevant. However, I
can think of two examples where it might have been useful and was
completely worthless.
snip

As someone once said, "There are no problems, only varying degrees of
challenging opportunities".

It is the opportunities that need to be exploited.

Lew

I can walk to the train station in Fair Lawn, NJ (5 min or so), take the
train (with a transfer) into Penn Station NY, then take Amtrak to Boston
South station. Then it is a single ride on the T to Porter Square, walking
distance to my son's place (6 min). The car would be faster if there is
not much traffic, but there is no guarantee that will happen. It is more
expensive by train, certainly for 2 people, but it is much more relaxing by
train. Have you driven through Connecticut lately?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Fri, 25 May 2007 10:11:16 -0500, HerHusband
wrote:

There's no point to this message, other than I need to vent somewhere...


I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets of
3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my local Home
Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have ever purchased!

I paid $40 a sheet

The plywood sucks, the fault obviously lies with me. I didn't inspect the sheets closely enough.

Live and learn...

Anthony


I bought about the same kind of plywood as you did last summer. I had
two projects in line to do, I thought I could tackle them both lickety
split. Wrong! I did the one that didn't require the plywood, I used
the MDF I'd bought for the other (oval mirror.) Anyway, I noticed
during the construction of the other project, that the sheets of birch
veneer plywood curled. There's no way they're flat. Not even close.
I was wondering WTF went wrong. Yes, it's in my basement shop, but
still, I've got other sheets of veneer plywood that aren't doing that.

I was thinking of going to a traditional lumberyard in the hopes that
they'll have plywood that won't curl. Or have the defects you've
outlined.

Dave Balderstone wrote:

As an aside, I work for the largest agricultural newspaper in Canada. I
understand the resilience of the farmer, but I also understand the
market and financial pressures they're under here in the prairies.

I'm not suggesting they'd give up. I'm suggesting they'd be forced into
bankruptcy.


Not all will survive, that's life; however, most can, and $10/gal
gasoline is on the horizon, but it won't happen over night.

There is time, but we can't waste it.

Time to start addressing the problem, IMHO.

As the cartoonist Walt Kelly voiced thru his Pogo comic strip, "We have
met the enemy, and it is us."

Lew

Han wrote:

Have you driven through Connecticut lately?

Trying to compare SoCal transportation requirements with those of the
North East corridor of the US is a little like comparing oranges and apples.

SoCal basically consists of basically 6 counties, one of which, San
Bernardino, is larger than the entire state of Connecticut.

The population of SoCal is approaching 18 million, which makes it larger
than 24 of the 50 US states.

People here drive 100+ miles each way from home to job, every day, for
many reasons including either the lack of time it takes or lack of
availability of public transportation.

IMHO, SUBSIDIZED public transit is one of those things the gov't should
be doing.

The benefits of this type infrastructure are almost to enormous to
calculate.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Dave Balderstone wrote:
|
| I'm not suggesting they'd give up. I'm suggesting they'd be
| forced into bankruptcy.
|
| Not all will survive, that's life; however, most can, and $10/gal
| gasoline is on the horizon, but it won't happen over night.
|
| There is time, but we can't waste it.
|
| Time to start addressing the problem, IMHO.

Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to death'
or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On May 27, 10:39 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:

or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?

But FIRST we do a feasibility study to see if the desired path
warrants a steering committee in order to fund a research group in
order to see if we can synchronise all the lobbies and focus groups to
make discoveries to establish re-electabilty. After they write a
proposal to investigate the ramifications due to financial and
environmental impact of any and all proposals...when we get that all
ironed out, it's time to move on to the next big step: we drum up
support by printing leaflets which we will hand out at all the White
Castle outlets. THEN we develop a plan. As long as it doesn't impact
the Slippy-Bellied Snail population and/or the spotted owls. Oh.. and
we need to hire some lawyers.

Is that what you mean, Morris?

o¿o

(tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Robatoy wrote:
| On May 27, 10:39 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:
|
|| or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
||
| But FIRST we do a feasibility study to see if the desired path
| warrants a steering committee in order to fund a research group in
| order to see if we can synchronise all the lobbies and focus groups
| to make discoveries to establish re-electabilty. After they write a
| proposal to investigate the ramifications due to financial and
| environmental impact of any and all proposals...when we get that all
| ironed out, it's time to move on to the next big step: we drum up
| support by printing leaflets which we will hand out at all the White
| Castle outlets. THEN we develop a plan. As long as it doesn't impact
| the Slippy-Bellied Snail population and/or the spotted owls. Oh..
| and we need to hire some lawyers.
|
| Is that what you mean, Morris?
|
| o¿o
|
| (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Tongue in cheek or not, there's enough truth in that to be downright
discouraging.

'develop a plan and take action' ::= 'talk it to death'

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:


Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to death'
or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?


Good question, why do you ask?

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to
|| death' or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
|
| Good question, why do you ask?

Ever the optimist, I keep hoping that "addressing the problem" will
mean more than just endlessly (re)specifying the problem.

Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
will to implement.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Sun, 27 May 2007 23:32:03 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Robatoy wrote:
| On May 27, 10:39 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:
|
|| or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
||
| But FIRST we do a feasibility study to see if the desired path
| warrants a steering committee in order to fund a research group in
| order to see if we can synchronise all the lobbies and focus groups
| to make discoveries to establish re-electabilty. After they write a
| proposal to investigate the ramifications due to financial and
| environmental impact of any and all proposals...when we get that all
| ironed out, it's time to move on to the next big step: we drum up
| support by printing leaflets which we will hand out at all the White
| Castle outlets. THEN we develop a plan. As long as it doesn't impact
| the Slippy-Bellied Snail population and/or the spotted owls. Oh..
| and we need to hire some lawyers.
|
| Is that what you mean, Morris?
|
| o¿o
|
| (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Tongue in cheek or not, there's enough truth in that to be downright
discouraging.

'develop a plan and take action' ::= 'talk it to death'


OTOH, there are times when that is *not* a bad idea.

I've seen the result of too many times when someone says, "It's time to
quit analyzing and time to *do* something." 9 times out of 10 that
*something* is exactly the wrong thing, but by golly we *did* something!



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Morris Dovey wrote:

Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
will to implement.

Nobody wants to see their ox gored.

As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.

Lew

Mark & Juanita wrote:
| On Sun, 27 May 2007 23:32:03 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| Robatoy wrote:
||| On May 27, 10:39 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:
|||
|||| or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
||||
||| But FIRST we do a feasibility study to see if the desired path
||| warrants a steering committee in order to fund a research group in
||| order to see if we can synchronise all the lobbies and focus
||| groups to make discoveries to establish re-electabilty. After
||| they write a proposal to investigate the ramifications due to
||| financial and environmental impact of any and all
||| proposals...when we get that all ironed out, it's time to move on
||| to the next big step: we drum up support by printing leaflets
||| which we will hand out at all the White Castle outlets. THEN we
||| develop a plan. As long as it doesn't impact the Slippy-Bellied
||| Snail population and/or the spotted owls. Oh.. and we need to
||| hire some lawyers.
|||
||| Is that what you mean, Morris?
|||
||| o¿o
|||
||| (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
||
|| Tongue in cheek or not, there's enough truth in that to be
|| downright discouraging.
||
|| 'develop a plan and take action' ::= 'talk it to death'
|
| OTOH, there are times when that is *not* a bad idea.
|
| I've seen the result of too many times when someone says, "It's
| time to quit analyzing and time to *do* something." 9 times out of
| 10 that *something* is exactly the wrong thing, but by golly we
| *did* something!

So have I - and in nearly every case it's because no one asked:
"What's the worst that could happen?"

We might consider: "What's the worst that could happen if we continue
to do what we've been doing?" The answer to this question may help us
to define the level of risk acceptable in alternative solutions. Let's
stipulate that there is no choice without /some/ associated risk.

It's also worth asking if a large problem can be subdivided so as to
be solved piecewise, and which of the partial solutions offer no
downside.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
|| that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack
|| the will to implement.
|
| Nobody wants to see their ox gored.
|
| As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.

That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
|| that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack
|| the will to implement.
|
| Nobody wants to see their ox gored.
|
| As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.

That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson or
another one?

todd

Lew Hodgett wrote:
IMHO, SUBSIDIZED public transit is one of those things the gov't
should be doing.

The benefits of this type infrastructure are almost to enormous to
calculate.

Public transit is subsidized.....locally each bus ride costs the taxpayer
approx. $25.00 but the ticket is about a buck......across the Columbia river
in Portland Max (light rail) costs about $40.00 per ride.......with a ticket
price of around $2.00. Other than having zero riders at actual cost how
does one justify such a subsidy? Rod

On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:51:03 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:


Which doesn't help when you go shopping, does it?

I shop on a bicycle often, with some thought and planning. With
racks, panniers, and/or a big 'ol messenger bag, it's amazing what a
cyclist can carry. Every day, I ride 5 miles with my laptop and some
papers, dress clothes & shoes, breakfast and fruit, and misc small
things (PDA , cell phone, Ipod, watch...) in a messenger bag.

You can't carry
groceries for a family on your bicycle, much less trying to carry a
dozen 4x8 sheets of plywood on your back. This is the woodworking
newsgroup after all.

Did you know Steve Knight has used a bicycle with a trailer for wood
runs? "Woodshop News" recently did an article about a cabinet shop
that bought bikes for interested staff to ride to work. G

I use my car and truck for some situations, as "whenever we can"
dosen't have to mean *always*. 4x8 sheets, 12' 8/4 planks, 5 gallon
lacquer cans, kitty litter, Diet Coke @ 5/12 packs for $10? Yeah, I
drive with those. I also drive when it's really freakin' cold, in
thunderstorms, or when the roads are snowy or icy.

I don't use the bike for political reasons or simply to save fuel. My
clothes or bikes don't have "one less car" written on them and I don't
scowl motorists. G I like to drive my vehicles from cradle to
grave, 2 mile trips are pretty tough on a vehicle. Cycling is fun
and good for you, and I can hear the birds and see what's really going
in the 'hood. Little kids at the bus stop wave to me. I arrive at
work wide awake with a lot less coffee.

By simply seeing 41 year old me doing it, three coworkers now ride to
work on a regular basis. One of the guys is 54 and hadn't had a bike
since he was a kid. Now he does a 40 mile round trip commute twice a
week. I'm the "kid" of the group! G

On Sun, 27 May 2007 16:49:44 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Michigan is an economic basket case. And there is a move afoot to raise
taxes even more.

Look more closely and you'd find the whole of the US is an economic
basket case held loosely together by house price inflation. When it
all goes tits-up it's a pity that the fallout from this poor financial
management will be felt worldwide.


--

Every time someone starts this "walk or ride a bike" thing, I think, live in
Seattle for a year and see how practicle that is.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:51:03 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:


Which doesn't help when you go shopping, does it?

I shop on a bicycle often, with some thought and planning. With
racks, panniers, and/or a big 'ol messenger bag, it's amazing what a
cyclist can carry. Every day, I ride 5 miles with my laptop and some
papers, dress clothes & shoes, breakfast and fruit, and misc small
things (PDA , cell phone, Ipod, watch...) in a messenger bag.

You can't carry
groceries for a family on your bicycle, much less trying to carry a
dozen 4x8 sheets of plywood on your back. This is the woodworking
newsgroup after all.

Did you know Steve Knight has used a bicycle with a trailer for wood
runs? "Woodshop News" recently did an article about a cabinet shop
that bought bikes for interested staff to ride to work. G

I use my car and truck for some situations, as "whenever we can"
dosen't have to mean *always*. 4x8 sheets, 12' 8/4 planks, 5 gallon
lacquer cans, kitty litter, Diet Coke @ 5/12 packs for $10? Yeah, I
drive with those. I also drive when it's really freakin' cold, in
thunderstorms, or when the roads are snowy or icy.

I don't use the bike for political reasons or simply to save fuel. My
clothes or bikes don't have "one less car" written on them and I don't
scowl motorists. G I like to drive my vehicles from cradle to
grave, 2 mile trips are pretty tough on a vehicle. Cycling is fun
and good for you, and I can hear the birds and see what's really going
in the 'hood. Little kids at the bus stop wave to me. I arrive at
work wide awake with a lot less coffee.

By simply seeing 41 year old me doing it, three coworkers now ride to
work on a regular basis. One of the guys is 54 and hadn't had a bike
since he was a kid. Now he does a 40 mile round trip commute twice a
week. I'm the "kid" of the group! G

"CW" wrote in
hlink.net:

Every time someone starts this "walk or ride a bike" thing, I think,
live in Seattle for a year and see how practicle that is.


I agree. Be practical. If you have to go to the drugstore around the
corner, walk or bicycle. If you have to go to the lumberyard 2 towns over
for a few 4x8 sheets, probably take the car!

--
Best regards
Han
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