On May 28, 1:26 am, "Morris Dovey" wrote:


Ever the optimist, I keep hoping that "addressing the problem" will
mean more than just endlessly (re)specifying the problem.

Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
will to implement.

In my quest to find a place to work and grow into, an option to buy a
strip-mall with light industrial zoning resulted in having a few
meetings with a few 'doers'. The place was simply too big for just
lill' ol' me and I wanted to offset my financial commitments. I
offered a symbiotic environment to a few small contractors which
bolted on to what it is I do. they included a high-end tile merchant
and a hardwood flooring installer. We've all know each other for years
and felt we had a marvellous opportunity.
The property in question had been a water treatment plant for bottled
water and some of the stainless tanks were still there, left for
scrap.
I noticed a little tag dangling from one of the valves which
instructed me to get in touch with an agency regarding the
'decommissioning' of installed equipment.

The meetings that ensued could have been straight from a horror
movie.... a psychological thriller. Marquis deSade with an MBA and
sandals and some training in extortion.
He spent an hour with his Powerpoint presentation explaining how
incredibly powerful and important he was. He then handed out 10-pound
1000-page questionnaires (ok, I am embellishing a little here) and it
went down-hill from there. About an hour later, as I scanned the room,
I saw faces looking at me with 'WTF' eyes and it was instantly clear
that the meeting had come to an abrupt end. As I snapped my briefcase
closed, I heard the simultaneous snapping of the other briefcases, and
we were outta there.
I thanked the bureaucrat for his time and told him I'd be in touch.

That farktard was going to bury us in bull**** so he could justify his
existence.
We were there to get going, to get started, roll up sleeves and go
nuts...he was there to make sure that wasn't going to happen. Almost a
year later, that building is still sitting there... and farktard is
wringing his hands looking for somebody who wants to play his game.

todd wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
| ...
|| Lew Hodgett wrote:
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||
|||| Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded
|||| me that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we
|||| lack the will to implement.
|||
||| Nobody wants to see their ox gored.
|||
||| As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.
||
|| That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...
|
| Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson
| or another one?

All of them. New Orleans did not, of course, begin as a large city
when the French established a trading outpost near the mouth of the
Mississippi. I'm ignorant of the period in which New Orleans acquired
"large city" status.

Let's begin with that point in time when we first knew for certain
that the levees were inadequate to perform the function for which
they'd been constructed, and work our way forward from there. Perhaps
we will learn enough to do better when, for example, the "Big One"
hits the Los Angeles area.

Let's enumerate the lessons (and there are /so/ many) without
consideration of the political entities involved. The lessons to be
learned won't be made any more clear by allowing their examination to
devolve into finger pointing.

There are a lot of lessons (at least hundreds!) to be learned, and one
of them is that when major interests are in conflict, /someone's/ ox
is going to be gored, and wanting or not wanting that to happen is not
necessarily going to affect what happens to the ox.

Another is that as long as we see life as a zero sum game, relying on
stakeholders to prevent ox-gorings is only wishful thinking. Some
stakeholders delight in seeing others' oxes gored.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Robatoy" wrote in message
In my quest to find a place to work and grow into, an option to buy a
strip-mall with light industrial zoning resulted in having a few
meetings with a few 'doers'. The place was simply too big for just
lill' ol' me and I wanted to offset my financial commitments.

Where was this "almost to be" working environment? Would be bureaucrats
aside, it would brighten my day at even the possibility of something like
that within travelling distance from where I live.

year later, that building is still sitting there... and farktard is
wringing his hands looking for somebody who wants to play his game.

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Let's begin with that point in time when we first knew for certain
that the levees were inadequate to perform the function for which
they'd been constructed, and work our way forward from there. Perhaps
we will learn enough to do better when, for example, the "Big One"
hits the Los Angeles area.

Let's enumerate the lessons (and there are /so/ many) without
consideration of the political entities involved. The lessons to be
learned won't be made any more clear by allowing their examination to
devolve into finger pointing.

Of course it was politics and people that got them there. Engineers told
'em over and over what fools they were. Not that N.O. is unique, of
course. Most of the Yellow river and a couple of others in China are
"elevated" too.

What we need is a good dictator to get the public transportation running on
time and get those people out of the way of the river (and the woods, and
the owls and the wolves...) so the greater good is served. Where's Joe when
we need 'im?

On 28 May 2007 06:34:16 -0700, Robatoy wrote:

On May 28, 1:26 am, "Morris Dovey" wrote:


Ever the optimist, I keep hoping that "addressing the problem" will
mean more than just endlessly (re)specifying the problem.

Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
will to implement.

In my quest to find a place to work and grow into, an option to buy a
strip-mall with light industrial zoning resulted in having a few
meetings with a few 'doers'. The place was simply too big for just
.... snip

cue ominous background music ...
I noticed a little tag dangling from one of the valves which
instructed me to get in touch with an agency regarding the
'decommissioning' of installed equipment.


crescendo
The meetings that ensued could have been straight from a horror
movie.... a psychological thriller. Marquis deSade with an MBA and
sandals and some training in extortion.
He spent an hour with his Powerpoint presentation

That's outlawed by the Geneva conventions, we can't do it to terrorists,
but it's OK to subject regular taxpayers to.



nuts...he was there to make sure that wasn't going to happen. Almost a
year later, that building is still sitting there... and farktard is
wringing his hands looking for somebody who wants to play his game.

... but the thing is, *he* doesn't care. It's not his building, he has
no stake in it. It is the owners trying to get someone into those digs who
are the real losers.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Morris Dovey wrote:

That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...

I'm not sure how that relates.

The natural disaster of Katrina, turned the light of reality on blatant
racism as well as complete government indifference and incompetence at
all levels, especially federal; however, none of that relates to
alternate energy pursuits, IMHO.

Lew

How different the aftermath of Katrina would have been had there been
a pile of rublle to stand on top of...with a bull-horn.
The image of minorities paddling for dear life makes for lousy photo-
ops.

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:


Public transit is subsidized.....locally each bus ride costs the
taxpayer
approx. $25.00 but the ticket is about a buck......across the
Columbia river
in Portland Max (light rail) costs about $40.00 per ride.......with a
ticket
price of around $2.00. Other than having zero riders at actual cost how
does one justify such a subsidy? Rod

As someone once said to me, taxes are the price we pay to live in an
organized society.

Simply for the sake of discussion, consider the following:

A locality spends $25,000,000/year to operate a public transit system
that cost $10,000,000,000 to build.

During the year, only one person took one ride on that system.

You could make the argument that the cost of that ride was $10,000,000;
however, there is a benefit to the local community of just having a
transit system, regardless of it's usefulness that reduces the cost of
that $10,000,000 ride.

How much? Who knows?

What is the value of having a convention in your town, or securing a
business that brings new jobs, etc, etc, because the local transit
system was available?

Who knows, but there are think tanks out there that can answer those
questions.

The point is that good infrastructure investments usually provide great
rewards over long periods of time that are best measured directly.

The last major bricks and mortar infrastructure project in the US was
probably the interstate highway system that is now over 50 years old.

Eisenhower wanted a highway system built to quickly deliver military
goods across the country.

The result was the interstate highway system.

Guess the military got some benefit; however, with out the interstate
system, where would we be today?

Did the US make a good infrastructure investment?

You tell me.

Lew



ride cost the

On May 28, 11:45 am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
In my quest to find a place to work and grow into, an option to buy a
strip-mall with light industrial zoning resulted in having a few
meetings with a few 'doers'. The place was simply too big for just
lill' ol' me and I wanted to offset my financial commitments.

Where was this "almost to be" working environment? Would be bureaucrats
aside, it would brighten my day at even the possibility of something like
that within travelling distance from where I live.


7000 sq ft. Asking $ 440,000.00, Sarnia...about 3 hour drive.

On Mon, 28 May 2007 12:23:27 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Every time someone starts this "walk or ride a bike" thing, I think, live in
Seattle for a year and see how practicle that is.

Heh, good point. I had a friend who lived just outside of Portland
for a while and sometimes, even having a car wasn't a good idea, you
needed a boat.

On Sun, 27 May 2007 21:39:48 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to death'
or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?


Usually it means "bitch and whine about it, but in the end, ultimately
accomplish nothing".

On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson or
another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

charlieb wrote:

We, the United States, are a relatively young country and are
still learning how to deal with problems. At the moment, we
happen to be being led by a child, and a not very bright one
at that.

The President has relatively little influence on the national economy.
Congress, Big Business, Bis Labor, and the Federal Reserve all have more
to do with it.

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Personally, would like to see $10/gal gasoline.

Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.

Yeah, suddenly we'd see millions of middle class families become
poverty-stricken. Not to mention double digit inflation.

Brian Henderson wrote in
news
On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson or
another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

Well, half or so of the Netherlands is below sea level. Yes it gives
problems, but that's why they have engineers. Most of the time it works
very well. Sometimes it doesn't (January 1953 was bad), and a new "plan"
is instituted. Somewhere there is a lesson or two in that experience for
New Orleans.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Lew Hodgett wrote in news:1UD6i.20077$3P3.11685
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

Eisenhower wanted a highway system built to quickly deliver military
goods across the country.

The result was the interstate highway system.

Guess the military got some benefit; however, with out the interstate
system, where would we be today?

Did the US make a good infrastructure investment?

You tell me.

I can't tell you - it's a question of opinion. An improved railway system
would have been a possible good alternative or addition.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Han" wrote in message
...
Brian Henderson wrote in
news
On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson or
another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

Well, half or so of the Netherlands is below sea level. Yes it gives
problems, but that's why they have engineers. Most of the time it works
very well. Sometimes it doesn't (January 1953 was bad), and a new "plan"
is instituted. Somewhere there is a lesson or two in that experience for
New Orleans.

Best regards
Han

Well, when half the country is at or below sea level, you don't have much
choice. I submit that we do have a choice as to what parts of NOLA to
rebuild.

todd

"Han" wrote in message
...
Lew Hodgett wrote in news:1UD6i.20077$3P3.11685
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

Eisenhower wanted a highway system built to quickly deliver military
goods across the country.

The result was the interstate highway system.

Guess the military got some benefit; however, with out the interstate
system, where would we be today?

Did the US make a good infrastructure investment?

You tell me.

I can't tell you - it's a question of opinion. An improved railway system
would have been a possible good alternative or addition.

Enough with the railway system talk. Railways make great sense in densely
populated areas. Eurpoe and Japan come to mind. If we had Europe's
population density, we'd have over a billion people in the US. Christ, if
we had Japan's density, we'd have over 3 billion people. When we reach a
billion people or so, I imagine an interstate rail system will make a lot
more sense. I live near Chicago, and the regional commuter railway system
is pretty good, as long as you're going to/from the city. The east and to a
lesser extent the west coast are good places to have passenger rail. Other
than that, there isn't much point right now to have it anywhere else besides
a few places.

todd

"todd" wrote in
:

"Han" wrote in message
...
Brian Henderson wrote in
news
On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson
or another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

Well, half or so of the Netherlands is below sea level. Yes it gives
problems, but that's why they have engineers. Most of the time it
works very well. Sometimes it doesn't (January 1953 was bad), and a
new "plan" is instituted. Somewhere there is a lesson or two in that
experience for New Orleans.

Best regards
Han

Well, when half the country is at or below sea level, you don't have
much choice. I submit that we do have a choice as to what parts of
NOLA to rebuild.

todd

The biggest choice of the "Deltaplan" was to substitute dikes (levees)
with increased height around each island in the Dutch Delta with an
almost single dike "in front of" most of the islands. Later it was
decided to make a movable barrier rather than an immovable one in front
of one of the main inlets, and thus keep the Oosterschelde more or less
tidal, without the need to increase dike heights along its whole
shoreline.

Very similar things can be done for the Mississippi delta (I'm a
biochemist, so I do know what I am talking about grin).


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On May 28, 5:39 pm, Han wrote:
"todd" wrote m:



"Han" wrote in message
...
Brian Henderson wrote in
news

On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson
or another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

Well, half or so of the Netherlands is below sea level. Yes it gives
problems, but that's why they have engineers. Most of the time it
works very well. Sometimes it doesn't (January 1953 was bad), and a
new "plan" is instituted. Somewhere there is a lesson or two in that
experience for New Orleans.

Best regards
Han

Well, when half the country is at or below sea level, you don't have
much choice. I submit that we do have a choice as to what parts of
NOLA to rebuild.

todd

The biggest choice of the "Deltaplan" was to substitute dikes (levees)
with increased height around each island in the Dutch Delta with an
almost single dike "in front of" most of the islands. Later it was
decided to make a movable barrier rather than an immovable one in front
of one of the main inlets, and thus keep the Oosterschelde more or less
tidal, without the need to increase dike heights along its whole
shoreline.

Very similar things can be done for the Mississippi delta (I'm a
biochemist, so I do know what I am talking about grin).

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

The Dutch are a whacky bunch, niet?

On Mon, 28 May 2007 20:07:52 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2007 12:23:27 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Every time someone starts this "walk or ride a bike" thing, I think, live in
Seattle for a year and see how practicle that is.

Heh, good point. I had a friend who lived just outside of Portland

What's funny is that my commuting bike is named after Portland. G

A very bicycle friendly city, even if the weather isn't. Rain isn't
as difficult for cycling as many think.

http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?a=hbied&c=deibc

Nothing difficult about it if you don't mind arriving wet.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
news
Rain isn't
as difficult for cycling as many think.

Robatoy wrote in news:1180388902.863225.256740
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

The Dutch are a whacky bunch, niet?

Nahh, it's just me grin!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...
|
| I'm not sure how that relates.
|
| The natural disaster of Katrina, turned the light of reality on
| blatant racism as well as complete government indifference and
| incompetence at all levels, especially federal; however, none of
| that relates to alternate energy pursuits, IMHO.

Many people are delaying action in order to maximize a hoped-for
government payment (either an entitlement or a tax incentive), much as
many people lived in New Orleans staking their futures on hoped-for
government maintenance of the levee system.

The lesson: It would appear to be a mistake to make important
decisions based on expected behavior of government - regardless of
whether those expectations involve public safety or energy policy.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:

That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...

I'm not sure how that relates.

The natural disaster of Katrina, turned the light of reality on
blatant racism as well as complete government indifference and
incompetence at all levels, especially federal; however, none of that
relates to alternate energy pursuits, IMHO.

I don't see how you can accuse the federal government of incompetence. Oh
sure, mistakes were made, but there will always be mistakes when billions of
dollars worth of stuff and people have to move in a short time.

Better to look at what the federal government DID do properly - and by
"properly" I mean within the law and according to the requests of local and
state officials.

Remember, the feds can't do much of anything unless asked by local
functionaries. It's sad that the feds were hamstrung by the stunning
incompetence of the local folk. For example, there were enough school busses
to take a goodly portion of the people in the dome all the way to Houston
(one "stolen" bus made the trip).

On Mon, 28 May 2007 20:13:05 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson or
another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

New Orleans is manageable with the right funding and engineering
knowledge, being heavily populated by blacks doesn't help secure the
right funding though, if it were somewhere "paler" then you could
guarantee the money would be provided.

But just wait until the huge landslip occurs at Cumbre Vieja on La
Palma in the Canary Islands. Above sea level or not the entire
eastern seaboard will be under water much deeper (as in about half a
MILE deeper) than New Orleans ever was.

The only hope? Grab a surfboard, put Surfin' USA on your Ipod, kiss
your ass goodbye and ride that wave.


--

On May 28, 6:42 pm, Mike wrote:

But just wait until the huge landslip occurs at Cumbre Vieja on La
Palma in the Canary Islands. Above sea level or not the entire
eastern seaboard will be under water much deeper (as in about half a
MILE deeper) than New Orleans ever was.

The only hope? Grab a surfboard, put Surfin' USA on your Ipod, kiss
your ass goodbye and ride that wave.


Ohhh, and don't forget your tinfoil hat!

Morris Dovey wrote:


The lesson: It would appear to be a mistake to make important
decisions based on expected behavior of government - regardless of
whether those expectations involve public safety or energy policy.

I'd say that to put your life style in the hands of others is definitely
not prudent.

If memory serves me correctly, the state of Louisiana ranks in the top 3
states in the receipt of federal monies. Has been that way for years.

Maybe there is good reason for it, but it does develop a mind set among
the residents that help is on the way.

Lew

todd wrote:

| I live near
| Chicago, and the regional commuter railway system is pretty good,
| as long as you're going to/from the city.

Do you remember when it was possible to travel from any point in
Chicago to any other and to/from the suburbs by rail?

Do you remember being able to travel from Chicago to any other city by
rail in comfort? I remember traveling from Chicago to NYC in a clean,
well-furnished private room.

| The east and to a lesser
| extent the west coast are good places to have passenger rail.

Ok...

| Other than that, there isn't much point right now to have it
| anywhere else besides a few places.

What "few places" are you talking about?

And what "many places" are you excluding?

I think I might want to disagree with you, but I'm not quite clear on
what you're saying ;-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

HeyBub wrote:

I don't see how you can accuse the federal government of incompetence.

Let me spell it out for you: BUSH

He has proven to be unqualified as well as arrogant, and has surrounded
himself with like kind.

The systematic dismantling of gov't seems to be their only objective and
they are doing a pretty good job of it.

The wealthy get wealthier, the poor get poorer, and the middle class
gets screwed.

Ain't life grand?

Lew

In article . com,
Robatoy wrote:

On May 28, 6:42 pm, Mike wrote:

But just wait until the huge landslip occurs at Cumbre Vieja on La
Palma in the Canary Islands. Above sea level or not the entire
eastern seaboard will be under water much deeper (as in about half a
MILE deeper) than New Orleans ever was.

The only hope? Grab a surfboard, put Surfin' USA on your Ipod, kiss
your ass goodbye and ride that wave.


Ohhh, and don't forget your tinfoil hat!


http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

;-)

Just Wondering wrote:
| charlieb wrote:
||
|| We, the United States, are a relatively young country and are
|| still learning how to deal with problems. At the moment, we
|| happen to be being led by a child, and a not very bright one
|| at that.
|
| The President has relatively little influence on the national
| economy. Congress, Big Business, Bis Labor, and the Federal Reserve
| all have more to do with it.

As reflected in the decision to not open the Iraqi reconstruction to a
normal bidding process?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
todd wrote:

| I live near
| Chicago, and the regional commuter railway system is pretty good,
| as long as you're going to/from the city.

Do you remember when it was possible to travel from any point in
Chicago to any other and to/from the suburbs by rail?

No. When was that? I'll admit that you can get from many suburbs to
another via Metra, you just have to go through Chicago first to do it.

Do you remember being able to travel from Chicago to any other city by
rail in comfort? I remember traveling from Chicago to NYC in a clean,
well-furnished private room.

Well, you can do that now with Amtrak. But it's a) extremely expensive and
b) slow.

| The east and to a lesser
| extent the west coast are good places to have passenger rail.

Ok...

| Other than that, there isn't much point right now to have it
| anywhere else besides a few places.

What "few places" are you talking about?

Houston and Dallas come to mind. Two population centers of several million
people within relatively close proximity. Unlike Europe and Japan, that
covers a very small part of the US.

And what "many places" are you excluding?

Most of the rest of the US. Say, between Topeka, KS and Idaho Falls, ID.

I think I might want to disagree with you, but I'm not quite clear on
what you're saying ;-)

Perhaps answering this question will help. Does the Chicago-area Metra have
a line to Rockford?

todd

On Mon, 28 May 2007 23:42:18 +0100, Mike wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2007 20:13:05 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:25:44 -0500, "todd" wrote:

Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson or
another one?

And the morons want to build it BELOW SEA LEVEL AGAIN!!!!!

Some people never learn.

New Orleans is manageable with the right funding and engineering
knowledge, being heavily populated by blacks doesn't help secure the
right funding though, if it were somewhere "paler" then you could
guarantee the money would be provided.


Oh puhleeze! The fact is that money was provided to the city of NOLA in
years past. Rampant corruption funneled a significant amount of that money
away from the levee projects that were to be reinforced.

This had nothing to do with race, this had to do with people who were
expecting the government to solve all of their problems and local
politicians who couldn't find their @#$ with both hands and a map.


Even MSNBC piles on:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/

http://katrinacoverage.com/tag/corruption/page/4/


http://katrinacoverage.com/2005/09/0...v-29-2004.html

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110008860




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

todd wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
| ...
|| todd wrote:
||
||| I live near
||| Chicago, and the regional commuter railway system is pretty good,
||| as long as you're going to/from the city.
||
|| Do you remember when it was possible to travel from any point in
|| Chicago to any other and to/from the suburbs by rail?
|
| No. When was that? I'll admit that you can get from many suburbs
| to another via Metra, you just have to go through Chicago first to
| do it.

It has been a while. I remember taking the South Shore into the city
from northern Indiana, then using the L and streetcars to get around
the city and surrounding 'burbs. It was easier and faster than my much
later trips through bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Dan Ryan. My
decision to leave the area was significantly affected by that
twice-daily ordeal.

|| Do you remember being able to travel from Chicago to any other
|| city by rail in comfort? I remember traveling from Chicago to NYC
|| in a clean, well-furnished private room.
|
| Well, you can do that now with Amtrak. But it's a) extremely
| expensive and b) slow.

It took full day the last such trip I made. It was cheaper than
flying, and provided an opportunity to unwind, relax, catch up on some
correspondence, and to arrive refreshed.

||| The east and to a lesser
||| extent the west coast are good places to have passenger rail.
||
|| Ok...
||
||| Other than that, there isn't much point right now to have it
||| anywhere else besides a few places.
||
|| What "few places" are you talking about?
|
| Houston and Dallas come to mind. Two population centers of several
| million people within relatively close proximity. Unlike Europe
| and Japan, that covers a very small part of the US.
|
|| And what "many places" are you excluding?
|
| Most of the rest of the US. Say, between Topeka, KS and Idaho
| Falls, ID.
|
|| I think I might want to disagree with you, but I'm not quite clear
|| on what you're saying ;-)

Now I don't think I do - we were each thinking of a different type of
service. I /would/ like to see more complete long-distance service (a
la Amtrak), but my primary interest is in local commuter service from
which even relatively small cities like Des Moines could benefit.

| Perhaps answering this question will help. Does the Chicago-area
| Metra have a line to Rockford?

Darned if I know - I haven't needed to get around in Chicago for a
long time.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

todd wrote:
Perhaps answering this question will help. Does the Chicago-area Metra have
a line to Rockford?

No! NW line will take you as far as Harvard or Woodstock. Western line
takes you to Elgin, maybe a spur to Elburn. Not sure. Woodstock would
be the closest to Rockford.

"Han" wrote in message

An improved railway system
would have been a possible good alternative or addition.

We had one. What happend to it?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
| "Han" wrote in message
|||
|| An improved railway system
|| would have been a possible good alternative or addition.
|
| We had one. What happend to it?

Sad story involving unfathomable amounts of greed and stupidity on the
part of more participants than just railroads, unions, and
government...

[1] Railroad management squeezed their employees a bit too much
[2] Railroad employees unionized to protect themselves
[3] Unions squeezed railroads a bit too much
[4] Government stepped in to regulate the daylights out of all
[5] Railroads stopped being profitable
[6] Expensive passenger service dropped
[7] Costly-to-maintain freight routes dropped
[8] Freight business migrates to trucking
[9] Freight business falls below critical mass
[10] Entire railroad companies expire

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Han wrote:

Have you driven through Connecticut lately?

To perhaps give you a different perspective on the difference between
East coast and SoCal transit, consider the following:

Since you live in Fairlawn, NJ, a question.

How long would it take you to travel between Fairlawn and New Haven, CT
to say attend classes at Yale?

For many in SoCal, that would be a fairly typical length of commute.

Lew

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
todd wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
| ...
|| todd wrote:
||
||| I live near
||| Chicago, and the regional commuter railway system is pretty good,
||| as long as you're going to/from the city.
||
|| Do you remember when it was possible to travel from any point in
|| Chicago to any other and to/from the suburbs by rail?
|
| No. When was that? I'll admit that you can get from many suburbs
| to another via Metra, you just have to go through Chicago first to
| do it.

It has been a while. I remember taking the South Shore into the city
from northern Indiana, then using the L and streetcars to get around
the city and surrounding 'burbs. It was easier and faster than my much
later trips through bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Dan Ryan. My
decision to leave the area was significantly affected by that
twice-daily ordeal.

|| Do you remember being able to travel from Chicago to any other
|| city by rail in comfort? I remember traveling from Chicago to NYC
|| in a clean, well-furnished private room.
|
| Well, you can do that now with Amtrak. But it's a) extremely
| expensive and b) slow.

It took full day the last such trip I made. It was cheaper than
flying, and provided an opportunity to unwind, relax, catch up on some
correspondence, and to arrive refreshed.

Maybe it's been a long time since you made that trip. It's currently a
20-hour train ride from Chicago to NY. If you have a "roomette", it runs
$482 one way. I have family in San Antonio, TX. I've looked into taking the
train with my wife and our 2 little ones. It would take 32+ hours and cost
about $1600 round trip with the "family bedroom". I can fly for about half
that. I wouldn't mind the time so much, but I can't pay double just for the
pleasure.

todd