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ARW ARW is offline
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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

On 26/05/2021 13:29, John Smith wrote:
On 2021-05-26 12:03:07 +0000, R D S said:

I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.

But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.

Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.


My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy
autos.

We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps me
reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...

I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.


A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.

Actually there is nothing wrong with them.

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.


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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...



"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 26/05/2021 13:29, John Smith wrote:
On 2021-05-26 12:03:07 +0000, R D S said:

I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.

But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.

Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.


My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy
autos.

We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps me
reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...

I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.


A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.

Actually there is nothing wrong with them.

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.


Thats coz you are a hoon.

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

ARW wrote:
On 26/05/2021 13:29, John Smith wrote:



I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.


A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.

Actually there is nothing wrong with them.


From the driving POV, they have got very good. The VAG 2L diesels are very
nice to drive (for an ICE vehicle). My 3L V6 Jag was also lovely.
Environmentally though, well€¦


And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).


And manuals are for dinosaurs. ;-) Better still, ditch the whole gear
shifting nonsense and go EV.


I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.


Good news is that quite a lot of EVs are RWD.

Tim


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On Sat, 29 May 2021 05:41:39 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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FLUSH more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

Dave Plowman wrote:

Interesting that these rubber band CVT transmissions were all the rage a
few years ago with smaller cars from the larger makers like Ford. Not
anymore.


Audi do/did make a steel band version "multitronic", it was also
programmed to be have discrete steps rather than be continuously
variable (at least in certain modes)


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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

ARW wrote:

John Smith wrote:

I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.


A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.

Actually there is nothing wrong with them.


I've flip-flopped between manual and auto over the years

I'd only had petrol until 2007 when I got a 2.2 diesel manual, then in
2011 changed to a 3.0 diesel auto, then after dieselgate I didn't trust
the gov not to tax the **** out of diesel, so went to a 2.0 turbo petrol
auto.

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).


do Fiat make DSGs?

I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.


previous car was 4wd with sports diff to vector torque from side to side
as well as rear to front.

current car auto switches from fwd to 4wd, it improves fuel economy
compared to permanent 4wd, but I preferred the sports diff.
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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

On 28/05/2021 20:29, ARW wrote:
On 26/05/2021 13:29, John Smith wrote:
On 2021-05-26 12:03:07 +0000, R D S said:

I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular
one having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.

But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a
couple of grand.

Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.


My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy
autos.

We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps
me reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...

I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.


A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.

Actually there is nothing wrong with them.

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.


Well Adam, I drive a not quite 300bhp diesel rear wheel drive car.
Jaguar XF S

If you don't like the auto box, stick it into manual mode and use the
flappy paddles...


--
€śI know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.€ť

ۥ Leo Tolstoy
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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

On 28/05/2021 20:21, bert wrote:
In article , Theo
writes
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Â*Â* JohnP wrote:

Take care - CVT is sometimes used to describe a Hybrid - yet many
think it
means the cone pulley / Belt/ Chain arrangement.Â* My hybrid uses a
planetary differential to combine engine and motor. Some call it CVT.

Yup - that was the fault of Toyota on the original Prius. Used to
describe
what is more a differential drive. Perhaps CVT wasn't a copyright name?


They called it an 'e-CVT'.Â* Which is what it is, an electronic
continuously variable transmission.Â* The innards don't bear much
relation to
the belt drive CVT, but the way it drives is like a CVT (although with a
slightly different - less squishy - feel).

(Some CVTs have fake-manual gears which are just fixed ratios on the
CVT you
can select - possibly useful for getting you out of a snowdrift but
otherwise mostly pointless given the computer can select an infinite
range)

Theo


The Suburu does. Utterly pointless to me, undoing one of the advantages
of CVT


The only model of Levorg they sell in the UK is like that... they
claimed that that is what drivers preferred! (not to mention that 1.6
turbo is the only engine option)

(personally I would have the JDM 2.5L Turbo with a conventional gearbox)

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Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/
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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

On 26/05/2021 13:03, R D S wrote:

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.

Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake
lights for years, i've probably been behind autos.

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 26/05/2021 13:03, R D S wrote:

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one having
driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.

Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during braking?
Or do they chew through pads?

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake lights
for years, i've probably been behind autos.


I've never owned an automatic. The few times I've driven one as a hire car
when going on business journeys, I've found that I have to fight them. Mind
you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was about 20 years ago,
and technology has changed.

With that caveat about old technology, I found it difficult to accelerate
smoothly through a roundabout. In a manual I would change into the correct
gear (eg 3rd) as I had finished braking and as I was about to enter the
roundabout, and then I would *stay* in that gear as I accelerated round and
out of the roundabout, changing up to a higher gear when I'd finished the
acceleration.

Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a sudden,
unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being able to get
just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I accelerated in the
*correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the right gear!). I either
got too little acceleration in one gear or else too much in the next gear
down.

At traffic lights, and when doing a hill start, I would *always* use the
handbrake to hold the car. And in traffic lights, I'd go into neutral so the
car would not creep forwards: I will not hold a car on the footbrake because
this dazzles the car behind (especially at night) with my brake lights. My
instructor (ex police Class 1 instructor) drummed into me "footbrake for
stopping the car; handbrake for *staying* stopped". If I stop in a queue of
traffic, I go into neutral with handbrake if I anticipate that I will not be
setting off again for more than about 10 seconds.

Oh, and in an automatic I *always* use my right foot for braking, as in a
manual, because my left foot has too much muscle-memory of big clutch
movements rather than small, precise footbrake/accelerator movements. The
only exception is for manoeuvring inch-by-inch, when accelerator alone
doesn't give enough control (the car tends to move in surges) and where in a
manual I'd keep constant engine speed (maybe foot-off idling) and control
the speed by letting the clutch up to the bite point and then lowering it
again once the car is moving.

Even in out manual Honda CRV which has hill-start assist, I do not use this
feature because I do not trust it: I've had the car roll backwards a foot or
so, so I always use the handbrake - that's that it's there for.


I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out of
*how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down- change. I
wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake into a hazard
while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the correct gear for
accelerating out of it, without the need to change sequentially down through
the gears (like I was taught for my normal test in 1980, before that test
adopted the IAM technique of block changes as I did for my 1990 IAM test).

My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only used
when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or torque
converter can engage a bit jerkily.



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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

On 28/05/2021 20:29, ARW wrote:

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

Is that either/or, or both



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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

On 07/06/2021 12:35, NY wrote:
"R D S" wrote in message

I've never owned an automatic. The few times I've driven one as a hire
car when going on business journeys, I've found that I have to fight
them. Mind you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was
about 20 years ago, and technology has changed.


Similar timeframe, it's a completely different beast to what I recall
driving and the way my dad's cars behaved.

Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a
sudden, unexpected surge of power.


I find i'm driving it gentler than I would my manual for partly this
reason, it *might* make me a 'better' driver. But i'm learning to
accelerate with less caning by progressively depressing the pedal.
I think it has an eco mode for gentler operation, I need to RTFM.

I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear


I wondered if i'd be inclined to take over gear changes, it has a manual
mode.
I've had the car since Friday, been out a good few times (as you do with
a new one) used the manual side once briefly and concluded that I will
probably use it very rarely. Perhaps on hilly & bendy roads.

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

NY wrote:
"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 26/05/2021 13:03, R D S wrote:

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one having
driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.

Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during braking?
Or do they chew through pads?

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake lights
for years, i've probably been behind autos.


I've never owned an automatic. The few times I've driven one as a hire car
when going on business journeys, I've found that I have to fight them. Mind
you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was about 20 years ago,
and technology has changed.

With that caveat about old technology, I found it difficult to accelerate
smoothly through a roundabout. In a manual I would change into the correct
gear (eg 3rd) as I had finished braking and as I was about to enter the
roundabout, and then I would *stay* in that gear as I accelerated round and
out of the roundabout, changing up to a higher gear when I'd finished the
acceleration.

Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a sudden,
unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being able to get
just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I accelerated in the
*correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the right gear!). I either
got too little acceleration in one gear or else too much in the next gear
down.

At traffic lights, and when doing a hill start, I would *always* use the
handbrake to hold the car. And in traffic lights, I'd go into neutral so the
car would not creep forwards: I will not hold a car on the footbrake because
this dazzles the car behind (especially at night) with my brake lights. My
instructor (ex police Class 1 instructor) drummed into me "footbrake for
stopping the car; handbrake for *staying* stopped". If I stop in a queue of
traffic, I go into neutral with handbrake if I anticipate that I will not be
setting off again for more than about 10 seconds.

Oh, and in an automatic I *always* use my right foot for braking, as in a
manual, because my left foot has too much muscle-memory of big clutch
movements rather than small, precise footbrake/accelerator movements. The
only exception is for manoeuvring inch-by-inch, when accelerator alone
doesn't give enough control (the car tends to move in surges) and where in a
manual I'd keep constant engine speed (maybe foot-off idling) and control
the speed by letting the clutch up to the bite point and then lowering it
again once the car is moving.

Even in out manual Honda CRV which has hill-start assist, I do not use this
feature because I do not trust it: I've had the car roll backwards a foot or
so, so I always use the handbrake - that's that it's there for.


I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out of
*how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down- change. I
wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake into a hazard
while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the correct gear for
accelerating out of it, without the need to change sequentially down through
the gears (like I was taught for my normal test in 1980, before that test
adopted the IAM technique of block changes as I did for my 1990 IAM test).

My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only used
when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or torque
converter can engage a bit jerkily.



Just get an EV and all these daft problems go away. ;-)

A nice ICE automatic can be very good and whilst I liked by VW DSG box, in
terms of refinement, my Jag XF box was much better. It seems its hard to
beat ample power and a good €śslushbox€ť.

Tim

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 28/05/2021 20:29, ARW wrote:

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

Is that either/or, or both


And Americans.

I once worked with a guy whose father worked for a car-hire company at an
airport. An American had booked a hire car, and because he hadn't specified
automatic, had been allocated a manual car. When my friend's father heard
the guy's accent, he offered to find an automatic instead, realising that an
American may not have ever driven a manual before.

The American said he was happy to have a manual. He was led out to the car,
which was parked in a line of cars parked nose-to-tail. He got in, revved
the car up to about 2000 rpm and the car lurched forwards violently when he
let the clutch in, hitting the car in front and sending it into the car in
front of that. Before the hire employee could stop him, he put the car into
reverse to try to extricate himself, and did the same thing to the cars
behind.

In about 10 seconds he had written off five cars: the one he was driving,
the two in front of him and the two behind. He lost his no-damage deposit...

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

In article , R D S wrote:
On 26/05/2021 13:03, R D S wrote:


I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.

Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.


Yup. Most who say they hate autos have never tried a decent modern one.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?


Is it a torque converter transmission? They do tend to sort of freewheel a
bit at low revs. Ie, around town where you brake the most. So to save
braking too much you need to come off the power rather earlier (when you
guess you're going to have to stop, or just use the brakes. Pads are cheap
enough. ;-)

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake
lights for years, i've probably been behind autos.


My auto has a near conventional friction clutch - no torque converter. And
if you leave it in drive with the handbrake on, it tries to creep against
it. Which to me, means unnecessary wear. Footbrake on when stopped
disengages the clutch. But of course means the stoplights are on. So I
just plonk mine in park at traffic lights, etc.

With a TC transmission, that creeps too. So for the very best MPG neutral
or park should help. But leaving it in drive, handbrake on, won't cause
any extra wear.

--
*By the time a man is wise enough to watch his step, he's too old to go anywhere.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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"Tim+" wrote in message
...

A nice ICE automatic can be very good and whilst I liked by VW DSG box, in
terms of refinement, my Jag XF box was much better. It seems its hard to
beat ample power and a good €śslushbox€ť.


It was the "slush" (torque converter) aspect of automatics that I found
hardest to adjust to: as you gradually increase the engine speed, the torque
converter initially tends to "change down" slightly, so small increases of
engine power don't result in increases in road speed. The DAF/Volvo
variomatic transmission was even worse for this: you'd hear the engine revs
increase dramatically but the car wouldn't increase in speed because the
belts moved to a lower ratio, and only when the ratio was correct would it
stop doing this and you'd get a fixed ratio and so an increase in road
speed.

I like a car that has a fixed ratio between engine and road (until you
change the ratio - and if you do it manually, you are *prepared* for it and
sub-consciously adjust the engine speed to adapt to it), rather than a vague
wishy-washy relationship between the two.

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In article ,
NY wrote:
Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a
sudden, unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being
able to get just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I
accelerated in the *correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the
right gear!). I either got too little acceleration in one gear or else
too much in the next gear down.


Even with three speed autos, this affect also depended on the torque
characteristics of the engine. As well as how well the box was designed
and 'programmed'. Some makers seemed to spend very little time optimising
things. For example, a nice revvy sporty engine that is great with a well
driven manual is not going to work well with only a 3 or four speed auto.
It also depends on how easily the auto does a part throttle change down.

--
*How can I miss you if you won't go away?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

In article ,
NY wrote:
I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out
of *how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down-
change. I wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake
into a hazard while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the
correct gear for accelerating out of it, without the need to change
sequentially down through the gears (like I was taught for my normal
test in 1980, before that test adopted the IAM technique of block
changes as I did for my 1990 IAM test).


The 7 speed PDK box on my car will drop as many gears as needed, depending
on how much acceleration you want. In practice, dropping one gear gives
plenty acceleration. Or even the gear it's already in.

My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only
used when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or
torque converter can engage a bit jerkily.


No TC transmission I've ever driven jerks away from rest, unless faulty.

Several of my last cars have had a manual option. This one via steering
wheel buttons, or the gearchange. They tend to be a 5 minute wonder, as
the programming is so good.

--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Just get an EV and all these daft problems go away. ;-)


See one maker has said they can improve it by adding a gearbox. ;-)

--
*It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The engine stops when I come to rest so a light touch on the brake keeps
the battery from rolling me forward. I don't have any trouble with
judging acceleration. And the left foot should do nothing while driving.
Right foot for loud and soft pedals in all cars, whether manual or auto.


So you're happy having the brake lights on when stopped in a traffic
queue? I'm not. As it annoys me others doing it.

I've left foot braked for about 50 years on autos. And not had a problem
reverting to a manual. It might be more difficult if you had two identical
cars, but one manual one auto.

--
*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Dave Plowman London SW
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Dave Plowman wrote:

So you're happy having the brake lights on when stopped in a traffic
queue? I'm not. As it annoys me others doing it.


My previous car I ordered without the "hold assist" so after a few
months I retrofitted it (replace single switch with double switch, add
fuse and couple of wires onto spare pins of ABS unit, re-program with
VCDS lead)

This meant when you came to a stop, the parking brake light would come
on as green rather than red by applying the "hand" brake button, you
could then take your foot off the brake and the rear brake lights would
go out.

Current car, now comes as standard with "hold assist" except when the
green parking brake light comes on, and you take your foot off, the rear
brake lights stay on, until you touch the accelerator to set off again,
so the manufacturer *makes* the brake lights stay on when the car is
stopped ... I don't think moving into neutral is enough for them to go
off, I think the "hand" brake has to be applied, or gearbox selected to
"P" to make them go out.
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
No TC transmission I've ever driven jerks away from rest, unless faulty.


All of the automatic cars that I have driven in the 1980s to early 2000s (my
dad's Citroen GS with C-Matic manual-torque-converter transmission, his Ford
Sierra and Honda Accords, and various Fords and Vauxhalls that I've been
loaned) have exhibited the same behaviour. With the car stationary on level
ground and no brake on (eg just released footbrake) you apply power
gradually and suddenly there is a bit of a lurch as the car starts to move,
akin to letting a manual clutch in a bit too smartly. Most of these were at
least 15 years ago, but the most recent auto that I drove was a Japanese car
(I forget what, not not a Honda) which was probably a few years old when I
drove it a couple of years ago.

It's not normally a problem, except if you are manoeuvring very slowly and
precisely (eg to line up with a towing hitch), which required me to get the
engine going just fast enough to start the car moving and then hit the brake
to control the movement. With a manual clutch it is much easier.

But a modern automatic may well behave very differently. I doubt whether any
automatic that I have driven has had more than the standard 3 gears.

I wasn't particularly a fan of automatics, and then I had to endure the
journey from hell in a Focus that had a duff gearbox which kept changing
down further and further the more I pressed the power: on a motorway I could
have 50 mph in any of the gears, but it took a long time of very gentle
acceleration to get any faster than 50. And once I did, some pillock would
pull out ahead of me, causing me to brake, and then the process would have
to begin again. If I had not just begun a long journey home and wanted to
get back ASAP rather than have to wait for a replacement car to be found and
delivered, I would have run the breakdown number and got them to replace it.

Sadly that experience has rather unfairly coloured my impression of autos.

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In article ,
NY wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
...


A nice ICE automatic can be very good and whilst I liked by VW DSG
box, in terms of refinement, my Jag XF box was much better. It seems
it‘s hard to beat ample power and a good ”slushbox•.


It was the "slush" (torque converter) aspect of automatics that I found
hardest to adjust to: as you gradually increase the engine speed, the
torque converter initially tends to "change down" slightly, so small
increases of engine power don't result in increases in road speed. The
DAF/Volvo variomatic transmission was even worse for this: you'd hear
the engine revs increase dramatically but the car wouldn't increase in
speed because the belts moved to a lower ratio, and only when the ratio
was correct would it stop doing this and you'd get a fixed ratio and so
an increase in road speed.


As I said, try a decent modern auto. Those with plenty ratios tend to lock
up the TC after moving off. Better for emissions and MPG.

I like a car that has a fixed ratio between engine and road (until you
change the ratio - and if you do it manually, you are *prepared* for it
and sub-consciously adjust the engine speed to adapt to it), rather than
a vague wishy-washy relationship between the two.


A decent modern auto will usually select the same gear as a skilled diver
would too. And better than many.

--
*A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.*

Dave Plowman London SW
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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...

Current car, now comes as standard with "hold assist" except when the
green parking brake light comes on, and you take your foot off, the rear
brake lights stay on, until you touch the accelerator to set off again, so
the manufacturer *makes* the brake lights stay on when the car is stopped
... I don't think moving into neutral is enough for them to go off, I
think the "hand" brake has to be applied, or gearbox selected to "P" to
make them go out.


I wonder if this is to appease the US market where your brake lights going
out when in a queue is often taken to imply to the car behind that you are
setting off. My sister was rear-ended as she was waiting in the middle of
the road to turn left when they lived in Boston. She braked to a halt,
indicating left, and then applied the handbrake and came off the footbrake,
waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic. A few seconds later her car was
hit from behind by a driver who had interpreted her brake lights going out
as signifying that she was starting to set off - he volunteered that reason
in his police statement.

If you were stationary, wouldn't you always have either the footbrake or
handbrake on? Or do you tend to come off the brake and just rely on being on
level ground to stop you rolling forwards or backwards? When I stop (manual
or automatic) I put the handbrake on - and release it in conjunction with
letting the clutch up (in a manual car) and applying power.


To guard against being rear-ended, if I am stopped in the middle of the road
waiting to turn, I tend to keep my brake lights on (as an exceptional case)
until I can see the car behind me has stopped, and then come off because
they have done their job of making sure he knows I'm stationary, and I don't
want to dazzle him any more than I want to be dazzled by someone else. There
was one junction near where I used to live, where I on several occasions I
had cars hoot madly and swerve around me - apparently because they had
interpreted my initial right-indicator as meaning "I am going to accelerate
and overtake" rather than "I am going to pull into the marked central
turn-right lane and come to a halt" and were then nonplussed when my brake
lights came on when they were expecting me to speed up. I suppose people saw
the "Start of dual carriageway 300 yards" sign and didn't see the
cross-roads and destination signs that preceded or followed it.

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NY wrote:

If you were stationary, wouldn't you always have either the footbrake or
handbrake on?


Not when the car has "hold" that keeps the brakes applied for you,
without you having to do anything, no.

What it actually does is use the ABS servo to apply pressure to all four
wheels, but after several minutes (e.g. waiting a busy level crossing)
the ABS can tend to overheat, so then it applies the "wind on" electric
handbrake to the rear wheels only.


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In article ,
NY wrote:
All of the automatic cars that I have driven in the 1980s to early 2000s
(my dad's Citroen GS with C-Matic manual-torque-converter transmission,
his Ford Sierra and Honda Accords, and various Fords and Vauxhalls that
I've been loaned) have exhibited the same behaviour. With the car
stationary on level ground and no brake on (eg just released footbrake)
you apply power gradually and suddenly there is a bit of a lurch as the
car starts to move, akin to letting a manual clutch in a bit too
smartly. Most of these were at least 15 years ago, but the most recent
auto that I drove was a Japanese car (I forget what, not not a Honda)
which was probably a few years old when I drove it a couple of years ago.


Very odd. Most autos will move off on a level road with no throttle
applied. Called creep.

At one time some would lurch when you engaged drive or reverse, if the
brakes weren't on. Most these days require the brakes on before you can
move from neutral or park, where the engine was started. On a poorly
maintained car with a too high idle speed this lurch could be dangerous to
the unwary.

--
*Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco *

Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The lurch you experienced was, I'm sure, due to the Borg-Warner and related
slush-boxes that were the only available autos in the old days.


And often badly adjusted.

The basic B-W of the 60s had a bowden cable between the throttle and box
which controlled when it changed gear. It also controlled the kick down
function. Get some wear in the throttle mechanism, and you lost kickdown.
Rather than fix/adjust the throttle linkage, most simply adjusted the
gearbox cable. Until it kicked down again. Messing up the relationship.
Ending up with incorrect gear change speeds, rough changes, and a bad
thump engaging drive, etc. And then blamed the gearbox. ;-)

--
*WOULD A FLY WITHOUT WINGS BE CALLED A WALK?

Dave Plowman London SW
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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
NY wrote:

If you were stationary, wouldn't you always have either the footbrake or
handbrake on?


Not when the car has "hold" that keeps the brakes applied for you, without
you having to do anything, no.

What it actually does is use the ABS servo to apply pressure to all four
wheels, but after several minutes (e.g. waiting a busy level crossing) the
ABS can tend to overheat, so then it applies the "wind on" electric
handbrake to the rear wheels only.


Presumably it has to detect that the car really has come to a complete halt
before it locks the brake on (without pedal pressure or handbrake),
otherwise you could be braking to very slow speed, but expect that as soon
as you release the footbrake, the car will roll the last few feet until you
apply it again "for keeps", and find that when it gets below the threshold
it irretrievable brakes and you have to countermand that with a bit of
power.

There are a number of "helpful" features that could very quickly become a
PITA because they override something that you would do yourself. Hill-start
assist *could* be a help, though having unexpectedly had to do on on a 1:3
hill (without psyching myself up for it) and found that it was dead easy, I
can't quite understand why anyone would have problems. But cars which
forcibly apply the brakes until you press the accelerator, or which (for an
EV) apply some regeneration retardation when you come off the power even
without the footbrake being pressed, well those would take a lot of getting
used to and having to work around.

As usual, the moral is "all automatic helpful gadgets should be capable of
being turned off according to personal preference".

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On 07/06/2021 13:27, NY wrote:
"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 28/05/2021 20:29, ARW wrote:

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

Is that either/or, or both


And Americans.

I once worked with a guy whose father worked for a car-hire company at
an airport. An American had booked a hire car, and because he hadn't
specified automatic, had been allocated a manual car. When my friend's
father heard the guy's accent, he offered to find an automatic instead,
realising that an American may not have ever driven a manual before.

The American said he was happy to have a manual. He was led out to the
car, which was parked in a line of cars parked nose-to-tail. He got in,
revved the car up to about 2000 rpm and the car lurched forwards
violently when he let the clutch in, hitting the car in front and
sending it into the car in front of that. Before the hire employee could
stop him, he put the car into reverse to try to extricate himself, and
did the same thing to the cars behind.

In about 10 seconds he had written off five cars: the one he was
driving, the two in front of him and the two behind. He lost his
no-damage deposit...


Hells bells.

Sounds a bit like the first time I had a do on a motorbike!
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
NY wrote:
All of the automatic cars that I have driven in the 1980s to early 2000s
(my dad's Citroen GS with C-Matic manual-torque-converter transmission,
his Ford Sierra and Honda Accords, and various Fords and Vauxhalls that
I've been loaned) have exhibited the same behaviour. With the car
stationary on level ground and no brake on (eg just released footbrake)
you apply power gradually and suddenly there is a bit of a lurch as the
car starts to move, akin to letting a manual clutch in a bit too
smartly. Most of these were at least 15 years ago, but the most recent
auto that I drove was a Japanese car (I forget what, not not a Honda)
which was probably a few years old when I drove it a couple of years ago.


Very odd. Most autos will move off on a level road with no throttle
applied. Called creep.


Hmm. I'd forgotten about creep. I wonder if it was that the transition from
creep to normal running was jerky, rather than the transition from
stationary to creep. There was certainly something about all of them which
made it difficult to accelerate smoothly from rest to (for example) 30 mph,
without a jump, either from when the car was stationary or else from when it
was creeping very slowly. I presume a dodgy transition from 1st to 2nd would
cause the symptom, though you'd expect it to be at a fairly high speed (eg
faster than walking pace) whereas my vague memory of it was that it happened
at a lower speed.

I would have been used to driving a manual car by the time I first drove one
of my dad's automatics (probably the C-Matic Citroen): being a company car
(*), they wouldn't let me drive the car till I'd passed the test. So
anything which had to be driven differently from a manual in terms of how
you applied power (apart, obviously, from having no clutch and not needing
to change gear) would have been very noticeable. But that doesn't explain
the problem with later cars: by then I'd have been used to driving a variety
of manuals (as opposed just to the car I'd learned on) and the technology
would be more recent.

That C-Matic was a really nasty transmission. It had a gear layout like a
3-speed manual, with reverse and 1st in one vertical plane and 2nd and 3rd
in another plane, and the movement of the gear lever was very notchy and
noisy. As far as I know it was a normal torque-converter planetary-gear
automatic, except with manual control of the gear-selection (ie the
tightening and releasing of the band brakes) instead of automatic
electro-mechanical or electronic logic choice and servo-selection of the
gears.



(*) When my sister was learning to drive a few years after me, Dad told her
that it was a company rule that before sons or daughters of employees were
allowed to drive a company car, they had to have an interview and
demonstration drive with the very taciturn, humourless and irascible CEO of
the company to make sure they were trustworthy and responsible. I backed up
Dad's story and made up a scare story about what an ordeal my "interview"
had been. She believed us - until several weeks later when Dad couldn't keep
a straight face any longer. She called us both *******s - and rightly so ;-)



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On 07/06/2021 13:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is it a torque converter transmission?


I believe so. I'll be buying pads and discs more regularly then.
I have a (annoying apparently to my passengers, but that's their problem
) habit when in traffic in my manual of using the gearbox to slow
down and applying the handbrake to come to a standstill.
Saves constantly shifting feet.

My auto has a near conventional friction clutch - no torque converter. And
if you leave it in drive with the handbrake on, it tries to creep against
it. Which to me, means unnecessary wear. Footbrake on when stopped
disengages the clutch. But of course means the stoplights are on. So I
just plonk mine in park at traffic lights, etc.


I don't like the sort of loose rock you seem to get in park but as you
say with the handbrake on in drive there's a bit of lurch.

So i've been knocking it into neutral and putting the handbrake on.

This has a stupid push-button 'hand'brake though and it turns into a
faff setting off again, you've to use the button and the brake pedal and
shift the stick and it's really fussy about the order of things.
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On 07/06/2021 12:03, R D S wrote:
On 26/05/2021 13:03, R D S wrote:

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.

Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.


That is true of cars with torque converters IME - they free run more
easily, however if you force it to change down, you still get engine
braking.

I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking?


Might depend a bit on which "mode" the box is in. On mine it changes
down at higher revs when in sport mode.

Or do they chew through pads?


Probably a bit more than a manual.

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.


Much the same, handbrake and neutral or just handbrake.

I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake
lights for years, i've probably been behind autos.


Or just lazy sods who never thing of the person behind them!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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In article ,
NY wrote:
The American said he was happy to have a manual. He was led out to the
car, which was parked in a line of cars parked nose-to-tail. He got in,
revved the car up to about 2000 rpm and the car lurched forwards
violently when he let the clutch in, hitting the car in front and
sending it into the car in front of that. Before the hire employee
could stop him, he put the car into reverse to try to extricate
himself, and did the same thing to the cars behind.


In about 10 seconds he had written off five cars: the one he was
driving, the two in front of him and the two behind. He lost his
no-damage deposit...



Remember the US court cases where poor car design was blamed for them
'running away'? They were autos.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
R D S wrote:
My auto has a near conventional friction clutch - no torque converter.
And if you leave it in drive with the handbrake on, it tries to creep
against it. Which to me, means unnecessary wear. Footbrake on when
stopped disengages the clutch. But of course means the stoplights are
on. So I just plonk mine in park at traffic lights, etc.


I don't like the sort of loose rock you seem to get in park but as you
say with the handbrake on in drive there's a bit of lurch.


It can roll a few inches before the pawl engages. On a hill where that
would jerk, I control the roll back or forward speed with the footbrake.

So i've been knocking it into neutral and putting the handbrake on.


This has a stupid push-button 'hand'brake though and it turns into a
faff setting off again, you've to use the button and the brake pedal and
shift the stick and it's really fussy about the order of things.


I never use the handbrake. Footbrake on with the left foot when I engage
drive.

Those who insist on only using one foot with an auto are just making work
for themselves. Although left foot braking does take a bit of practice.

--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *

Dave Plowman London SW
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NY wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
NY wrote:

If you were stationary, wouldn't you always have either the footbrake
or handbrake on?


Not when the car has "hold" that keeps the brakes applied for you,
without you having to do anything, no.

What it actually does is use the ABS servo to apply pressure to all
four wheels, but after several minutes (e.g. waiting a busy level
crossing) the ABS can tend to overheat, so then it applies the "wind
on" electric handbrake to the rear wheels only.


Presumably it has to detect that the car really has come to a complete
halt before it locks the brake on (without pedal pressure or handbrake),


yes, you do have to come to a total stop, then you can swivel your right
foot back over the accellerator, if the stop/start is active the engine
will stop, and you're ready to touch the accelerator to set off again

otherwise you could be braking to very slow speed, but expect that as
soon as you release the footbrake, the car will roll the last few feet
until you apply it again "for keeps"


you can 'feather' the brakes quite precisely to stop the car, but not
stop the engine, it just needs that extra squeeze to stop it.

and find that when it gets below
the threshold it irretrievable brakes and you have to countermand that
with a bit of power.

There are a number of "helpful" features that could very quickly become
a PITA because they override something that you would do yourself.
Hill-start assist *could* be a help, though having unexpectedly had to
do on on a 1:3 hill (without psyching myself up for it) and found that
it was dead easy, I can't quite understand why anyone would have
problems. But cars which forcibly apply the brakes until you press the
accelerator, or which (for an EV) apply some regeneration retardation
when you come off the power even without the footbrake being pressed,
well those would take a lot of getting used to and having to work around.


on an auto i don't find all the gadgets fight each other, when mine's
been in for servicing, I sometimes get a manual, then I find they
conflict a bit, e.g. you have to keep clutch fully depressed so the
stop/start stays stopped.

As usual, the moral is "all automatic helpful gadgets should be capable
of being turned off according to personal preference".




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On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 17:29:54 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
On 07/06/2021 13:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is it a torque converter transmission?

I believe so. I'll be buying pads and discs more regularly then.
I have a (annoying apparently to my passengers, but that's their problem
) habit when in traffic in my manual of using the gearbox to slow
down and applying the handbrake to come to a standstill.
Saves constantly shifting feet.
My auto has a near conventional friction clutch - no torque converter. And
if you leave it in drive with the handbrake on, it tries to creep against
it. Which to me, means unnecessary wear. Footbrake on when stopped
disengages the clutch. But of course means the stoplights are on. So I
just plonk mine in park at traffic lights, etc.

I don't like the sort of loose rock you seem to get in park but as you
say with the handbrake on in drive there's a bit of lurch.

So i've been knocking it into neutral and putting the handbrake on.

This has a stupid push-button 'hand'brake though and it turns into a
faff setting off again, you've to use the button and the brake pedal and
shift the stick and it's really fussy about the order of things.


Are you sure it isn't an automatic parking brake? That releases itself as you accelerate off from stopped.

On my car, with DSG, I just take my foot off the brake when it has stopped. Parking brake will have applied itself. Then onto accelerator to move off again.

When I first drove automatic, it was switching back to manual after a few months that got me. I simply forgot you need to depress the clutch as you stop!
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polygonum_on_google wrote:

Are you sure it isn't an automatic parking brake? That releases
itself as you accelerate off from stopped.

On my car, with DSG, I just take my foot off the brake when it has
stopped. Parking brake will have applied itself. Then onto
accelerator to move off again.


My only niggle with that, using the electric handbrake, is that the car
squats down a little with brakes just on the rear, while the hold assist
uses all 4 brakes and sets of again without squatting down.
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NY wrote
R D S wrote
R D S wrote


I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.


Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.


I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.


I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?


And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake
lights for years, i've probably been behind autos.


I've never owned an automatic.


Me neither but I do plan to have one with the next car,
soon, mainly because I want a very fancy cruise control
for long distance trips which I do quite a bit and also
for the convenience around town, not having to
manually change gears at most corners.

The few times I've driven one as a hire car when going on business
journeys, I've found that I have to fight them.


I always used the work vehicles for those and they
were always automatics, never had to fight any of
them. But then I dont drive anything like you do.

Mind you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was about 20
years ago, and technology has changed.


The work cars were much older than that but big 6s.

With that caveat about old technology, I found it difficult to accelerate
smoothly through a roundabout. In a manual I would change into the correct
gear (eg 3rd) as I had finished braking and as I was about to enter the
roundabout, and then I would *stay* in that gear as I accelerated round
and out of the roundabout, changing up to a higher gear when I'd finished
the acceleration.


Around town I stay in 3rd all the time and mostly change down
to 2nd around corners. In a car with 5th overdrive which only
gets used when out of town.

Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a sudden,
unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being able to get
just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I accelerated in the
*correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the right gear!). I
either got too little acceleration in one gear or else too much in the
next gear down.


You must be too rough with the accelerator.

At traffic lights, and when doing a hill start, I would *always* use the
handbrake to hold the car. And in traffic lights, I'd go into neutral so
the car would not creep forwards: I will not hold a car on the footbrake
because this dazzles the car behind (especially at night) with my brake
lights.


I never do that and no one else does that either.

My instructor (ex police Class 1 instructor) drummed into me "footbrake
for stopping the car; handbrake for *staying* stopped".


Just because one individual does it that way doesnt mean you have
to do it that way. What makes sense is what matters and that doesnt.

If I stop in a queue of traffic, I go into neutral with handbrake if I
anticipate that I will not be setting off again for more than about 10
seconds.


I dont fart around like that, even in a traffic jam.

Oh, and in an automatic I *always* use my right foot for braking, as in a
manual, because my left foot has too much muscle-memory of big clutch
movements rather than small, precise footbrake/accelerator movements.


You are remarkably unadaptable, likely thats the accelerator problem.

The only exception is for manoeuvring inch-by-inch, when accelerator alone
doesn't give enough control (the car tends to move in surges) and where in
a manual I'd keep constant engine speed (maybe foot-off idling) and
control the speed by letting the clutch up to the bite point and then
lowering it again once the car is moving.


Thats why you need new clutches so often. I have never had to replace
one, even in the Golf which I used every day from new for 45 years.

Even in out manual Honda CRV which has hill-start assist, I do not use
this feature because I do not trust it: I've had the car roll backwards a
foot or so, so I always use the handbrake - that's that it's there for.


I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out of
*how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down- change.


I dont see the point in manually changing with an auto unless
its to avoid overheating the brakes on long downhill runs etc.

I wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake into a hazard
while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the correct gear for
accelerating out of it, without the need to change sequentially down
through the gears (like I was taught for my normal test in 1980


That teaching was stupid. It hasnt made
sense once hopeless brakes were long gone.

before that test adopted the IAM technique of block changes as I did for
my 1990 IAM test).


My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only used
when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or torque
converter can engage a bit jerkily.


Not with the best autos. ****ed if I want to fart around like
that in traffic.

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Default OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...



"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
On 07 Jun 2021 at 12:03:31 BST, R D S wrote:

On 26/05/2021 13:03, R D S wrote:

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.

Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.


The engine stops when I come to rest so a light touch on the brake keeps
the
battery from rolling me forward. I don't have any trouble with judging
acceleration.


And the left foot should do nothing while driving. Right foot
for loud and soft pedals in all cars, whether manual or auto.


Thats mad when finely adjusting the position of the car like
when parking in a very tight spot.

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Default Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 06:43:27 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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