On 29/11/2020 20:22, williamwright wrote:

Good grief, what a palaver! My equivalent is: drive until the fuel gauge
reads about half way, start looking for a filling station, fill up.

Planning it like an aeroplane journey indeed! What a load of arse!

Yep, he is really selling the benefits of an electric car.




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/11/2020 23:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) explained :
There's no real reason there couldn't be lots of on street chargers. Such
things already exist. Just not enough of them, if and when electric cars
become the norm.

No reason at all, apart from the power infrastructure needed to power
them, like cables, distribution networks, sub-stations and power
generation. Well'll be fine.

But isn't that part of Boris's new green jobs economy?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

williamwright wrote:
Good grief, what a palaver! My equivalent is: drive until the fuel gauge
reads about half way, start looking for a filling station, fill up.

If you have a small petrol car and do that, you end up doing much the same.
eg a fuel tank that's 6 gallons full to 'empty'. At say 40mpg that's
240 miles per tank, and if you start looking for fillups at halfway you're
doing it every 120 miles.

Planning it like an aeroplane journey indeed! What a load of arse!

I often end up setting the satnav to take me to a
Asda/Tesco/Sainsbury/Morrisons with filling station that's close to my route
and at the right distance for when I'd need to fill up (rather than paying
motorway services ripoff prices or driving around haphazardly looking for
stations). Even better if they have a cafe that's open. Cheap fuel,
toilets, reasonably priced food, the full supermarket offering if I want
something different, and possibly a more interesting town location.

That's not that different to what you'd do in an EV.
Satnavs handle it just fine.

Theo

On 30/11/2020 00:05, Theo wrote:
williamwright wrote:
Good grief, what a palaver! My equivalent is: drive until the fuel gauge
reads about half way, start looking for a filling station, fill up.

If you have a small petrol car and do that, you end up doing much the same.
eg a fuel tank that's 6 gallons full to 'empty'. At say 40mpg that's
240 miles per tank, and if you start looking for fillups at halfway you're
doing it every 120 miles.

I've never owned a car that has done less than 300+ miles per tank of
petrol. Even when the empty light comes on there is usually another 50
miles in the tank. My current car will do 400+ miles on a tank (without
registering empty) at motorway speeds (plus a bit).


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/11/2020 20:21, alan_m wrote:


Nor having to endure a half hour wait being ripped off for coffee or
food in motorway services whilst waiting for charge.


Without wishing to appear smug, because of the family traditions of (a)
not spending money if it can possibly be avoided and (b) using
motorhomes and vans, I never go into a motorway café except to use the
lavatory (and I only do that to stretch my legs and save filling my own
bog.) Even in the work van I have a gas hob and everything necessary to
make a decent snack and hot drink.

I don't stop for fuel on the motorway if I can help it because the
prices are too high.

Bill

On 29/11/2020 21:54, mm0fmf wrote:
On 29/11/2020 21:48, Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Nov 2020 at 20:44:40 GMT, ARW
wrote:

On 29/11/2020 12:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Â* On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:32:20 +0000, alan_m wrote:
Â* In most cases even with previously de-frosting windows unless the
Â* interior of the car in warm, or there is stream of hot air to the
Â* windows, they will mist/freeze up again rather quickly.Â* I find the
Â* heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter conditions.
Â* +1
Â* Heated screen is one of the top requirements for a car. Way above
Â* poncy heated seats.

I'll settle for one with a radio that cannot play Vanessa Feltz
broadcasts.

Who's she?

A clueless ugly fat bird with opinions.

Born in Islington married to a 'person of colour'. I mean. Really. What
DO you expect?


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 29/11/2020, Dave Liquorice supposed :
The lamp
unit, identical to the lamp unit in the rear passenger compartment of
the FL, is Ford and from the Galaxy people carrier.

Manufactures collect ready made parts from a number of suppliers, so it
is common to find identical parts on several different models and ar
manufacturer's vehicles. Some suspension items from a Galaxy are common
to my Rover and much cheaper if purchased for the Ford.

Going back a great many years, the same Lucas starter motor was used in the
Mini and the Anglia. it was much cheaper to buy a from a Ford dealer.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Fredxx submitted this idea :
I'm sure there will be a diesel heater accessory sold as a range extender
which can use red diesel.

The diesel heater in my car will run quite happily on red or white
diesel, as will the engine. There is absolutely no difference between
the two, other than the colour and the duty charged.

In article ,
charles wrote:
As a percentage of the cost of a new EV, I doubt they are that expensive -
especially when they are made by the million.

what is going to cost money is installing the infrastructure needed to
power them.

I think that may be over estimated. All the houses here already have an 80
amp supply. No restrictions via the main feeders on how much you use of
that in practice. And peak demand - cooking etc - is likely to be at the
same sort of times. So charging a car overnight may well not overload the
feeders. It's not as if everyone will need to charge every car from empty
to full every single day.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
Good grief, what a palaver! My equivalent is: drive until the fuel gauge
reads about half way, start looking for a filling station, fill up.

Your nearest filling station is always half a tank away? You really must
live in the sticks. ;-)

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
There's no real reason there couldn't be lots of on street chargers. Such
things already exist. Just not enough of them, if and when electric cars
become the norm.


I don't think the greenies will encourage that. They don't really like
ordinary working class people having cars anyway; they think the proles
should all be on public transport, and they have no instinctive regard
for individual freedom because they are basically communistic.

Remind us of how many 'greenies' are in power?

Perhaps you need your memory jogged. We have a Tory government with a
large majority.

--
*The most common name in the world is Mohammed *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
Someone had to pay for petrol stations too.

But people don't have to park in front of petrol pumps for extended
periods of time so the petrol stations don't also need to be car parks.

Just where does your car live at night?

Perhaps this can be an earner in towns for cash strapped councils. Only
allow charging stations to be installed in council run car parks where
"normal" parking charges apply.

There is no doubt some way will be needed to replace lost revenue from
fossil fuel taxes.

How is Elfin Safety going to cope with charging points on roads with
trip hazards from flying charging leads and with the insulation that may
not be up to scratch after a period of misuse?

Err, why would there be a trip hazard if there was a charging point on the
edge of the kerb outside your house? Do you trip over trees and lampposts,
etc?

--
*I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 29/11/2020 12:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:32:20 +0000, alan_m wrote:

In most cases even with previously de-frosting windows unless the
interior of the car in warm, or there is stream of hot air to the
windows, they will mist/freeze up again rather quickly. I find the
heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter conditions.

+1

Heated screen is one of the top requirements for a car. Way above
poncy heated seats.

I'll settle for one with a radio that cannot play Vanessa Feltz
broadcasts.

You need to find the handbook for the radio. Most can receive more than
one station. I know it's tricky, but just persevere.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) presented the following explanation :
Someone had to pay for petrol stations too.

They were a gradual development, over 120 years and ICE became more
widespread and greater distances were covered. For electric vehicles we
expect and need high capacity charging to be available now.

It would not be such a problem if the charging were instant, like
fillingup with diesel, but imagine a garage choked up with cars sat
there for many hours, recharging, whilst a long queue builds up outside
all waiting to recharge.

I'd say you need to look for a better solution. ;-)

--
*Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
As a percentage of the cost of a new EV, I doubt they are that
expensive - especially when they are made by the million.

what is going to cost money is installing the infrastructure needed to
power them.

I think that may be over estimated. All the houses here already have an 80
amp supply. No restrictions via the main feeders on how much you use of
that in practice. And peak demand - cooking etc - is likely to be at the
same sort of times. So charging a car overnight may well not overload the
feeders. It's not as if everyone will need to charge every car from empty
to full every single day.

I was thinking of the infra-structure needed for supplies at the edge of
the road for those who park there.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) presented the following explanation :
Someone had to pay for petrol stations too.

They were a gradual development, over 120 years and ICE became more
widespread and greater distances were covered. For electric vehicles we
expect and need high capacity charging to be available now.

It would not be such a problem if the charging were instant, like
fillingup with diesel, but imagine a garage choked up with cars sat
there for many hours, recharging, whilst a long queue builds up outside
all waiting to recharge.

I'd say you need to look for a better solution. ;-)

Exactly: it needs a dramatic change in lifestyle to make sure that the car
is always fully charged when you set off from home in the morning or from
work in the evening (places where you can leave the car to charge for many
hours), in case you need to make a detour that lengthens your normal
journey. And it will put paid to journeys of more than the range of the car
because the refuelling time is so much longer than for a petrol/diesel car.
And there is always the worry that the place where you plan to charge the
car has no spaces left or has a power cut / equipment failure, leaving you
stranded.

On 30/11/2020 11:21, NY wrote:
Exactly: it needs a dramatic change in lifestyle to make sure that the
car is always fully charged when you set off from home in the morning or
from work in the evening (places where you can leave the car to charge
for many hours), in case you need to make a detour that lengthens your
normal journey. And it will put paid to journeys of more than the range
of the car because the refuelling time is so much longer than for a
petrol/diesel car. And there is always the worry that the place where
you plan to charge the car has no spaces left or has a power cut /
equipment failure, leaving you stranded.

All this begs the question of why first the train and then the motor car
became popular.

Simply because they delivered more, for less effort.
You can ride dobbin cross country, but in terms of communications it was
better to ride him on a road, and as for goods transport, carts need
roads. So roads already existed.

Train tracks did not, but the huge speed and power advantage of a steam
engine over dobbin - either pulling a cart or pulling a barge - meant
there was a massive commercial pressure to build them. And, once built,
people wanted to travel in them. It was easier and quicker than a stage
coach.

I was there in the post war years when cars went from being an expensive
luxury for rich people, to being the means by which everyone travelled
simply because they were reliable, within budget and way faster than any
public transport, because they ran when *you* were ready, not to a
schedule, and they ran door to door, not station or stop to station or
stop.

It is not for no reason that 'car culture' is lionized in popular music
of the American 50s and European 60s...

"Oh Lord, won't you buy me, a Mercedes Benz..."

The drive to BEVS is being driven not by popular choice but by gross
market distortion and a faux moral imperative. Nice though some of the
aspects are, the batteries are simply not good enough for all but niche
applications.

A one thousand mile battery would solve all the issues. People do not
drive 1000 miles with no break for sleep and recharge, and even truck
drivers are only allowed what - 9 hours per day? 56 hours per week...or
90 hours per fortnight.

At 90km/h - around 55 mph, so at best they can manage 3,000 miles in a
week, at a duty cycle of 33%. with a worst case ten hour stint twice a
week., So they are limited *by law* to 550 mile stints. With 14 hours to
sleep between them. Given suitable charging at truck stops 1000 miles of
battery would be fine for them, as well.

I think the longest stints I ever did in one go was 900 miles at an
average of 60mph. With a ferry crossing in the middle. Peak speeds in
excess of 130mph.

1000 miles would suit that especially with a rapid recharge on the ferry

So, it is easy to see that if sensibly priced BEV technology with 1000
mile range existed, there would be queues in the showrooms. Even 600
miles would be enough for most people. The fact is that is simply not
there, and BEV sales are driven by legislation, not be being a more
attractive solution, except to the intra urban middle class, with
garages in which to charge a second car that never goes further than the
local school or supermarket.

As for issues of heating and cooling, 5kW is enough for any sane
location and with a 50kwH battery that's only a 10% range reduction,
less with bigger batteries, and almost meaningless with a 1000 mile battery.
Everything about electric cars is fine and dandy,and vastly superior
to a fuel car, except the sodding batteries.

And they are tantalisingly close, but in reality we need the capacity
per unit weight up by a factor of at least three while the costs come
down that much...and I simply dint see the potential to achieve that
with existing technologies.





--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On 30/11/2020 11:20, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
As a percentage of the cost of a new EV, I doubt they are that
expensive - especially when they are made by the million.

what is going to cost money is installing the infrastructure needed to
power them.

I think that may be over estimated. All the houses here already have an 80
amp supply. No restrictions via the main feeders on how much you use of
that in practice. And peak demand - cooking etc - is likely to be at the
same sort of times. So charging a car overnight may well not overload the
feeders. It's not as if everyone will need to charge every car from empty
to full every single day.

I was thinking of the infra-structure needed for supplies at the edge of
the road for those who park there.

I think that would never happen. If you look at where those cars get
driven, apart from the school run, almost all of them end up in public
car parks at the supermarket, or in a town centre for visits to the
shops. Those are ideal locations for charging stations.

I really dont think charging is ultimately a barrier to BEVs - it's a
matter of money only, and already batteries that can fully recharge in
under ten minutes, given a big enough current, are feasible., What is
unacceptable is having only a 210 mile range and the need to go miles
out of your way - increasing journey lengths and times - to find a
charge station.

And what is even more unacceptable is having their use legislated by
diktat from Princess NutNuts and her ilk.

Looking at the use of current cars what is needed is 600 mile range, -
which implies something like a 250kWh battery - so that charging
overnight during the week, at home, or even at a local supermarket or
charge station within reasonable walking distance, nets you a once a
week long trip to see granny etc. without need to 'refuel'

The problem is that currently that would weigh and cost more than the
rest of the car put together by a considerable margin.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
[snip]

As for issues of heating and cooling, 5kW is enough for any sane
location and with a 50kwH battery that's only a 10% range reduction,
less with bigger batteries, and almost meaningless with a 1000 mile battery.

You're not comparing the same thing!

5kW *for an hour* is 10% of 50kwH. So even for the range of existing
electric cars, say 250 miles, 5kW for the whole 250 miles at an
average of 50mph is 5 x 5 kwH, i.e. 25kwH, 50% of your battery capacity.

--
Chris Green
·

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
A one thousand mile battery would solve all the issues. People do not
drive 1000 miles with no break for sleep and recharge, and even truck
drivers are only allowed what - 9 hours per day? 56 hours per week...or 90
hours per fortnight.

At 90km/h - around 55 mph, so at best they can manage 3,000 miles in a
week, at a duty cycle of 33%. with a worst case ten hour stint twice a
week., So they are limited *by law* to 550 mile stints. With 14 hours to
sleep between them. Given suitable charging at truck stops 1000 miles of
battery would be fine for them, as well.

You've hit the nail on the head: the range needs to be sufficient for the
most driving that one can legally/practicably do in a day, on the assumption
that you will "always" be able to find somewhere to refuel during planned
down-time (eg overnight).

I don't think I've ever had to refuel during a day's journey, *as long as
I've started with a full tank of fuel*. There may be good reasons why I
haven't done started with a full tank, especially if I know that somewhere
along my journey I will be driving through an area where fuel is
significantly cheaper than at the start of my journey. But I know with a
diesel car that wherever I choose to refuel, I can do so in a couple of
minutes.

Even if I'm touring around during a day, I may only stop only long enough to
go to the loo, have lunch, visit a park for a walk etc - none of those stops
are anywhere near long enough to recharge an electric car significantly.

We have got used to being able to refuel quickly. That is the more
significant advantage of fossil fuel cars over electric than the increased
range - the knowledge that wherever and whenever we refuel (how ever
frequent or infrequent that may be) we will not be kept waiting many hours
while it happens, requiring us to plan to do something during that time. To
remove that advantage is to "progress backwards", and no amount of "it is
good for the environment" will make up for that.


And they are tantalisingly close, but in reality we need the capacity per
unit weight up by a factor of at least three while the costs come down
that much...and I simply don't see the potential to achieve that with
existing technologies.

By 2030, will we have the generating capacity to supply the extra energy
that electric cars will use - and to do so in several peaks during the day
(when everyone gets home in the evening, when everyone gets to work in the
morning)? Most house supplies can probably cope with the increased current -
even with a car charger, a cooker, a tumble drier and an electric fire,
you're probably within the 60 A (or 80 A) limit of the "company fuse". But
add together all the extra power from all the houses, and you may start to
overload HV distribution lines or generating capacity. OK, car charging can
be staggered so some cars charge as soon as they are plugged in and some
charge as late as they can manage while still being complete by the time you
set off. But the longer the range, the longer the charging time and so the
less leeway there will be to stagger the charging.

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
On 30 Nov 2020 at 12:07:27 GMT, Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:55:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Train tracks did not, but the huge speed and power advantage of a
steam engine over dobbin - either pulling a cart or pulling a barge -
meant there was a massive commercial pressure to build them. And,
once built, people wanted to travel in them. It was easier and
quicker than a stage coach.

You missed the intermediate step of canals - which meant the skillbase
for laying railway lines was already easily available.

Funny, I was going to make that point too. But railways (as it happened)
followed hot on the heels of canals, so canals tend to be the forgotten
solution. A railway line (certainly of the time) was a lot easier to put
in than a canal.

Canals carried on being useful until the big freeze of 1947

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 30/11/2020 12:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:55:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Train tracks did not, but the huge speed and power advantage of a steam
engine over dobbin - either pulling a cart or pulling a barge - meant
there was a massive commercial pressure to build them. And, once built,
people wanted to travel in them. It was easier and quicker than a stage
coach.

You missed the intermediate step of canals - which meant the skillbase
for laying railway lines was already easily available.

Well the post ended up long enough already.
And canals were dobbin powered anyway.


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 30/11/2020 12:19, Tim Streater wrote:
On 30 Nov 2020 at 12:07:27 GMT, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:55:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Train tracks did not, but the huge speed and power advantage of a steam
engine over dobbin - either pulling a cart or pulling a barge - meant
there was a massive commercial pressure to build them. And, once built,
people wanted to travel in them. It was easier and quicker than a stage
coach.

You missed the intermediate step of canals - which meant the skillbase
for laying railway lines was already easily available.

Funny, I was going to make that point too. But railways (as it happened)
followed hot on the heels of canals, so canals tend to be the forgotten
solution. A railway line (certainly of the time) was a lot easier to put in
than a canal.

I am not sure on that point. Both had to adhere to contours or remove a
huge amount of material or build fantastic bridges...ultimately the
canal was a bit wider, but the train track itself had to be laid, but
that was really the easiest part of the job.


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 30/11/2020 11:03, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
williamwright wrote:
There's no real reason there couldn't be lots of on street chargers. Such
things already exist. Just not enough of them, if and when electric cars
become the norm.


I don't think the greenies will encourage that. They don't really like
ordinary working class people having cars anyway; they think the proles
should all be on public transport, and they have no instinctive regard
for individual freedom because they are basically communistic.

Remind us of how many 'greenies' are in power?

One !!. Princess Nut Nuts

Perhaps you need your memory jogged. We have a Tory government with a
large majority.


But split into two factions. The ERG group and the rest.

On 29/11/2020 22:30, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 29/11/2020, Dave Liquorice supposed :
*The lamp
unit, identical to the lamp unit in the rear passenger compartment of
the FL, is Ford and from the Galaxy people carrier.

Manufactures collect ready made parts from a number of suppliers, so it
is common to find identical parts on several different models and ar
manufacturer's vehicles. Some suspension items from a Galaxy are common
to my Rover and much cheaper if purchased for the Ford.

The rear hubs on a Volvo V50 are the same as a Ford Focus. Theye are
even stamped FoMoCo. One of the engines fitted to a mini was the same
as one used in the Pug 208, but if you try and buy engine parts from
a Pug dealer they won't supply.

On 29/11/2020 18:49, charles wrote:
In article , Max Demian
wrote:
On 29/11/2020 05:00, williamwright wrote:

Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's
another variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive
without the headlamps on? etc etc.

Maybe travel rugs will come back.

In this family, they've never gone away.


Still wool (and merths) ?

On 30/11/2020 09:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx submitted this idea :
I'm sure there will be a diesel heater accessory sold as a range
extender which can use red diesel.

The diesel heater in my car will run quite happily on red or white
diesel, as will the engine. There is absolutely no difference between
the two, other than the colour and the duty charged.

Does it have its own separate tank though ?.

The VW411 fastback had a petrol-powered aux heater. They caused
some interesting moments.

On 30/11/2020 12:19, NY wrote:
By 2030, will we have the generating capacity to supply the extra energy
that electric cars will use - and to do so in several peaks during the
day (when everyone gets home in the evening, when everyone gets to work
in the morning)?

Indeterminate. Consider the salient issues
1/. Will we have an economy able to sustain multi billion year on year
investment in infrastructure? If the answer is windmills, we most
certainly will not have...
2/. If the answer is nuclear power, once again will we have the cash to
invest in that AND a massive grid upgrade?
3/. If we are overwhelmed by fast breeder immigrants, would they even
care enough to let it happen?

The conservative approach is to let things develop naturally adding in
capacity as it becomes needed without second guessing where it will all
end up, but with contingency plans to deal with reasonable possible
variations.

The current total energy consumption of the nation equates to around
300GW. Now that doesn't directly equate to electrical needs since e.g. a
BEV is 90% efficient whereas a diesel today is at best 40%, and electric
cars can have regen braking to further improve MpKwh.

Obviously if you are generating electricity from carbon based fuel at
55% efficiency then its not much less carbon emitting...but if we shift
to nuclear power where efficiency is not a huge issue, due to the cheap
cost of uranium, then we can say that in terms of transport we will need
perhaps half the energy in kwh as in the fuel we put in the tanks.

So perhaps the lower limit on grid uplift is only 150GW - which is when
closure of coal is considered something like a 3:1 increase in the grid
capacity.

The last time I looked at government policy, it was something like 75GW
nuclear and 75GW of windmills and solar panels. I don't think that is
enough and mixing windmills with nukes is pointless anyway.

So it all depends how much longer the renewable fraud continues.

And if that goes down die to force majeure pist COVID, then its
reasonable to suppose that so to will legislated for BEVs.

I hope, with a little confidence, that in fact COVID 19 and Brexit will
break the spine of the post consumer cabal that seeks to impose
totalitarianism by stealth, getting us to sign away freedoms for fear of
whatever it is they have dreamed up this time.

A rational policy would be to clear the way for massive nuclear
expansion by rewriting the rules needed to deploy it, defund
'renewables' and allow fracking.

BEVS would then penetrate the market as when when users found them a
better choice than fuel cars.,


Most house supplies can probably cope with the
increased current - even with a car charger, a cooker, a tumble drier
and an electric fire, you're probably within the 60 A (or 80 A) limit of
the "company fuse".

Or 100A..

But add together all the extra power from all the
houses, and you may start to overload HV distribution lines or
generating capacity. OK, car charging can be staggered so some cars
charge as soon as they are plugged in and some charge as late as they
can manage while still being complete by the time you set off. But the
longer the range, the longer the charging time and so the less leeway
there will be to stagger the charging.

Of course. We know this. We are not art students. But in fact a longer
range helps. recharging can be scheduled into when its convenient, not
when the damned thing is totally flat.




--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 30/11/2020 12:57, Andrew wrote:
On 30/11/2020 09:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx submitted this idea :
I'm sure there will be a diesel heater accessory sold as a range
extender which can use red diesel.

The diesel heater in my car will run quite happily on red or white
diesel, as will the engine. There is absolutely no difference between
the two, other than the colour and the duty charged.

Does it have its own separate tank though ?.

The VW411 fastback had a petrol-powered aux heater. They caused
some interesting moments.
Twin-engined piston-powered aircraft often have heaters that use avgas
(petrol with the more volatile fractions removed and more lead than
usual added). The procedures on how to use them need to be carefully
followed!

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 22:48:59 +0000, Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:

Tim+ formulated on Sunday :
[quoted text muted]

I suspect it will never be adequate, because of the infrastructure
needed to support it.

And until and unless houses are guaranteed the parking space outside
their door, I suspect it will remain so.

Err, why? Do you currently park in the middle of a field? Can you only use
your mobile phone in your own house?

--
*I get enough exercise just pushing my luck.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:19:32 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

On 30 Nov 2020 at 12:07:27 GMT, Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:55:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Train tracks did not, but the huge speed and power advantage of a
steam engine over dobbin - either pulling a cart or pulling a barge -
meant there was a massive commercial pressure to build them. And,
once built,
people wanted to travel in them. It was easier and quicker than a
stage coach.

You missed the intermediate step of canals - which meant the skillbase
for laying railway lines was already easily available.

Funny, I was going to make that point too. But railways (as it happened)
followed hot on the heels of canals, so canals tend to be the forgotten
solution. A railway line (certainly of the time) was a lot easier to put
in than a canal.

??????

I thought it was the reverse. To lay a railway line you need embankments
much wider than a canal ????

but they don't need to be as level - or watertight.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
NY wrote:
Exactly: it needs a dramatic change in lifestyle to make sure that the
car is always fully charged when you set off from home in the morning
or from work in the evening

Why? Do you always make sure your fuel tank is full before every journey?

--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
As a percentage of the cost of a new EV, I doubt they are that
expensive - especially when they are made by the million.

what is going to cost money is installing the infrastructure needed
to power them.

I think that may be over estimated. All the houses here already have
an 80 amp supply. No restrictions via the main feeders on how much you
use of that in practice. And peak demand - cooking etc - is likely to
be at the same sort of times. So charging a car overnight may well not
overload the feeders. It's not as if everyone will need to charge
every car from empty to full every single day.

I was thinking of the infra-structure needed for supplies at the edge of
the road for those who park there.

They managed perfectly well to put parking metres in every bay when it
suited. They dig up the roads to run fibre in as and when needed. Etc.

How much do you think it would cost to equip every house with a charging
point outside it in the road - done all at the same time? As opposed to
the costs of changing every car in the street for an EV?

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/11/2020 12:28, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:19:32 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

On 30 Nov 2020 at 12:07:27 GMT, Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:55:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Train tracks did not, but the huge speed and power advantage of a
steam engine over dobbin - either pulling a cart or pulling a barge -
meant there was a massive commercial pressure to build them. And,
once built,
people wanted to travel in them. It was easier and quicker than a
stage coach.

You missed the intermediate step of canals - which meant the skillbase
for laying railway lines was already easily available.

Funny, I was going to make that point too. But railways (as it happened)
followed hot on the heels of canals, so canals tend to be the forgotten
solution. A railway line (certainly of the time) was a lot easier to put
in than a canal.

??????

I thought it was the reverse. To lay a railway line you need embankments
much wider than a canal ????

The width of an embankment is determined by the slip angle of the soil
and its height. I would think a canal with water has a worse slip angle.
I can't recall canals on embankments anyway. Cuttings or aqueducts...
Only place I have seen embankments with water at the top are on the Fens
where they are drainage and the slopes are about 30%

A bit of googling reveals that there are canals at the top of
embankments, but they are pretty wide embankments if for no other reason
than if a train embankment fails at worst one train gets derailed. If a
canal embankment fails or a river levee, you get thousands of tons of
water smashing through whatever is below.

All other things being equal, the decision as to whether to
viaduct/aqueduct, embank, cutting or tunnel railways and canals or run
them along contour lines is pure cost analysis.

Both railways and trains represent because of their level natures, low
energy costs per tonne mile. Both were originally human or animal
powered, but te demise of the canals is I suspect simply a reflection
on the limited availability of enough water, and the limits on boat
speeds. Hard to see a 100mph canal boat..

As long as governments do not interfere, the optimal solution at te
lowest cost tends to emerge.

The private fuel car was one such.



--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
How much do you think it would cost to equip every house with a charging
point outside it in the road - done all at the same time? As opposed to
the costs of changing every car in the street for an EV?

A much bigger issue is the complete rewriting of the law regarding what a
"public" highway is, if you are going to festoon it with access points
for EVs.

Can't really see the difference from allowing parking outside your house.

The fact remains everyone who has a car finds somewhere to park it when
it's not in use. So you provide charging points there.

I don't want to see the end of IC driven vehicles perhaps more than most
on here. But many of the arguments put forward against EVs are
nonsensical. Very few indeed make use of the maximum range of their car
more than a few times a year.

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 13:54:27 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Exactly: it needs a dramatic change in lifestyle to make sure that the
car is always fully charged when you set off from home in the morning
or from work in the evening

Why? Do you always make sure your fuel tank is full before every
journey?

Isn't that a Highway Code point about ensuring your car is prepared for
a journey. Tyre condition and pressures, screen wash etc etc ?

Meaning you check all of those as well as filling it up, before a trip to
the shops?

--
*The modem is the message *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/11/2020 16:23, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 15:52:35 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't want to see the end of IC driven vehicles perhaps more than most
on here. But many of the arguments put forward against EVs are
nonsensical. Very few indeed make use of the maximum range of their car
more than a few times a year.

The biggest arguments against EVs is that they are EVs and rely on heavy
unreplaceable batteries which limit their range and charging profile to
hours rather than minutes.


Dave shows that like any supporter of renewable mythology he doesn't
understand the difference between peak and mean.

Of course 99% of my journeys are under 25 miles but its the ones that
are not that keep me from buying an electric car,

I don't want a house that stands up to 99% of the wind speeds, I want a
house that stands up to 100% of them.
I don't want to fly in an aircraft that will survive 99% of the
turbulence it will encounter or a ship that will survive 99% of the
icebergs, or an electricity grid that works 99% of the time.


Two drawbacks that have no solution in sight at the moment.

Who knows. The ultimate use for HS2 might be to take EVs from Birmingham
to London so people can drive around a few miles and then be taken back
again, possibly charging en route ?

For myself I think we need an intersection of two technolgies, plus a
couple of generations to croak it. Then we'll have a mesh of autnomous
EVs that can charge whenever needed, plus a population quite happy to not
own a car when they can summon one in less than 5 minutes.

Oh yes, change is coming but almost certainly not the change you think
is coming.

Since your arguments are predicated on the assumption that 'low carbon'
will survive another decade.

I am sure that some incident somewhere will result in a massive
repudiation of all this green nonsense, or the end of western
civilisation and 'climate change' with it. East of the caucasus they
don't give a **** about any of it. Until you get to Australia, anyway.


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 15:52:35 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't want to see the end of IC driven vehicles perhaps more than most
on here. But many of the arguments put forward against EVs are
nonsensical. Very few indeed make use of the maximum range of their car
more than a few times a year.

The biggest arguments against EVs is that they are EVs and rely on heavy
unreplaceable batteries which limit their range and charging profile to
hours rather than minutes.

Two drawbacks that have no solution in sight at the moment.

Who knows. The ultimate use for HS2 might be to take EVs from Birmingham
to London so people can drive around a few miles and then be taken back
again, possibly charging en route ?

There used to be trains that took cars while passengers slept. Motorrail.
It might be time to re-introduce them.

For myself I think we need an intersection of two technolgies, plus a
couple of generations to croak it. Then we'll have a mesh of autnomous
EVs that can charge whenever needed, plus a population quite happy to not
own a car when they can summon one in less than 5 minutes.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 30/11/2020 16:48, charles wrote:
There used to be trains that took cars while passengers slept. Motorrail.
It might be time to re-introduce them.

A retrograde step. 'all the cramped public exposure of an aircraft with
worse journey times than a private car'

The problem with all 'public' transport is that it runs to someone elses
timetable.

Driverless taxis are a far more likely way forward...

--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 16:48:19 +0000, charles wrote:


There used to be trains that took cars while passengers slept.
Motorrail.
It might be time to re-introduce them.



For internal UK journeys ?

Yes: London Penzance; London Perth amongst others. Wiki says there
were 28 station served, I think these the last two to run.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle