Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old April 17th 09, 11:42 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots can kill you

Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn

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Old April 18th 09, 12:16 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots cankill you

On 2009-04-17, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.


So they say that minis fare badly in collision with heavier cars.
That's understandable.

I am wondering about something? Does fuel efficiency of those tiny
cars come from then being small in dimensions, or light in weight?

I suspect that it is mostly the former, due to improved wind
resistance and such.

If so, perhaps the tiny economy cars could be made heavier, but kept
to the same dimensions? Such as, perhaps, the frame could be made from
solid steel instead of tubing.
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Old April 18th 09, 12:26 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots cankill you

On Apr 17, 5:42*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. *Actually tons of metal involved. *But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn


Interesting and I have been following this.

Whether the American public understands it or not, smaller more
efficient vehicles are coming and are long over due.

If anyone thought gas prices will stay low, they need to do some
research.

Emissions are another big issue that was buried the last eight years
that is now being dealt with.

And from the looks of it, American companies will not be the producers
of these vehicles.

TMT

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Old April 18th 09, 12:53 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots cankill you

Ignoramus14774 wrote:
On 2009-04-17, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.


So they say that minis fare badly in collision with heavier cars.
That's understandable.




No, they said teh *single car* death rate was twice the norm.



I am wondering about something? Does fuel efficiency of those tiny
cars come from then being small in dimensions, or light in weight?



Both, but at around town speeds, it's almost all about weight.

The stop and go aspect of city traffic means constantly accelerating
up to speed - then stopping. Then accelerating again.

Lighter weights (actually less mass) takes less energy to accelerate.


I suspect that it is mostly the former, due to improved wind
resistance and such.


Only at high speeds. 60 - 70 MPH on the highway verses 20 to 30 around town.

Google "aerodynamics of bluff bodies" for the ugly details.

If so, perhaps the tiny economy cars could be made heavier, but kept
to the same dimensions? Such as, perhaps, the frame could be made from
solid steel instead of tubing.


They need "crush space" to allow structure to dissipate energy while collapsing.
That's hard to come by when your feet reach the front bumper...


Richard
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Old April 18th 09, 12:54 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots can kill you


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Apr 17, 5:42 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn


Interesting and I have been following this.

Whether the American public understands it or not, smaller more
efficient vehicles are coming and are long over due.

If anyone thought gas prices will stay low, they need to do some
research.

Emissions are another big issue that was buried the last eight years
that is now being dealt with.

And from the looks of it, American companies will not be the producers
of these vehicles.

TMT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------\\\

Indeed, it's high time people pay for their liability coverage by the pound.

If people want to drive an IRON chariot, let them pay the price in insurance
and the additonal damage they cause in an accident.






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Old April 18th 09, 03:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots cankill you

I remember the exact same rationale in 1985.

A lady engineer drove a monster tank of a Caddy.
It was the largest one made for people.

Other engineers drove sporty cars.

She got heck from them - but one after another 'others' were
in bad, bad crushing problems. She was T-Boned one day and
the other car was crushed. She needed paint and a little Bondo.

Larger mass wins. Battery cars - lead acid types are death unto
the other cars.

Martin


Ignoramus14774 wrote:
On 2009-04-17, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.


So they say that minis fare badly in collision with heavier cars.
That's understandable.

I am wondering about something? Does fuel efficiency of those tiny
cars come from then being small in dimensions, or light in weight?

I suspect that it is mostly the former, due to improved wind
resistance and such.

If so, perhaps the tiny economy cars could be made heavier, but kept
to the same dimensions? Such as, perhaps, the frame could be made from
solid steel instead of tubing.

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Old April 18th 09, 04:39 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots cankill you

On Apr 17, 5:42 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn


The fix is simple. The operator "cockpit" shall only be allowed to be
in front of the bumper. This shall be law for all vehicles greater
then 2000 lbs. This cockpit shall be constructed only of thin plastic
and Plexiglas. When the operator does something stupid, they are kill
immediately, removing them from the gene pool. Those that drive
smartly do not kill any one else. This stops the "I'm invincible"
mentality where they make left turns in front of motor cycles, or
economy cars.
This applies to any thing over 2000 lbs. semi-trucks, ag-tractors,
etc. fixing this problem of idiots that drive with out consequences.
ignator
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Old April 18th 09, 04:57 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots can kill you


"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn


my experience is different - though the small cars I've driven for decades
have been high end ones not inexpensive econoboxes - it is much cheaper to
buy a 10 year old excellent car than a brand new cheapie


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Old April 18th 09, 05:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots can kill you

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:57:27 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn


my experience is different - though the small cars I've driven for decades
have been high end ones not inexpensive econoboxes - it is much cheaper to
buy a 10 year old excellent car than a brand new cheapie

From what I've seen around here, the luxury car is kept for three
years and traded in for new. It then goes out as a taxi for about six
years until it becomes un-economical to keep on the road 24/7, at
which point it gets cleaned up, painted and put on the used car lot
and sold to a single mother with three kids on welfare. Of course she
can't keep up the payments, repairs and 5MPG city gas cost so it gets
repossessed and resold about three more times before going for
recycling.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
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Old April 18th 09, 06:08 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default OT -- Small Cars Are Dangerous Cars - Fuel economy zealots can kill you


"ignator" wrote in message
...
On Apr 17, 5:42 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Title says it all. Actually tons of metal involved. But too little for
safety.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993371229527975.html

This is a shot in the coming fight about CAFE.

The Wall Street Journal, 17 April 2009.

Joe Gwinn


The fix is simple. The operator "cockpit" shall only be allowed to be
in front of the bumper. This shall be law for all vehicles greater
then 2000 lbs. This cockpit shall be constructed only of thin plastic
and Plexiglas. When the operator does something stupid, they are kill
immediately, removing them from the gene pool. Those that drive
smartly do not kill any one else. This stops the "I'm invincible"
mentality where they make left turns in front of motor cycles, or
economy cars.
This applies to any thing over 2000 lbs. semi-trucks, ag-tractors,
etc. fixing this problem of idiots that drive with out consequences.
ignator


The damage to the front of my pickup is from a small car backing in to the
front. Dark and rainy. So you think the small cars can get away with
killing and mayhem?




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