Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill

williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill

The heating is a lot.

4300W

30-35% of range.

But the testing was not done well, and so there
are some caveats in that number. It will be that
bad, if you leave the car on flow-thru, and you
do short trips from one mall to another mall while
shopping. The short trips case causes the car to
warm up from the outside-low temperature to the
cabin-target-temperature, for each short trip. If
you do highway driving, with the car set to
recirculate instead of flow-thru, then the result
could differ. On a long trip, the wastage number
will be somewhat lower. We don't know the average power
needed to maintain the steady state cabin temp.

The people writing the article, wanted material
for a magazine article. They weren't exactly
scientists interested in nuances.

The headlights are nothing, compared to the heat.
The incandescent on your ICE car, is replaced with
LEDs on the BEV. The incandescent would be 60W and 75W,
while the LEDs would be 8W and 10W or so to make the
same light. Small potatoes compared to 4300W for
cabin heat.

*******

Here's a fun article for you. The driver was using a Bolt.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/driv...hicles-winter/

It shows there is an issue with charging from the lowest
level of charger, and that is, that the charger can't keep
the battery pack warmed to a good level for later. You would
be leaving the cable connected, just so the battery could
be kept at a good temperature.

For a person in a cold climate, it looks like you should be
a home owner and not an apartment dweller. As then you can
fit a charger worthy of winter conditions. Or alternately,
just drive your chariot into a heated garage. You can keep
your gas car out in the driveway or parked on the street.

Paul

Paul wrote:
williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill

The heating is a lot.

4300W

30-35% of range.

Most new EVs employ heat pump technology which greatly reduced power
consumption over simple resistive heating. Range is still impacted in
winter but the difference is nearer 10% than 30-35%

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 29/11/2020 05:00, williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill
Sensible electric car owners pick models with heated seats and heated
steering wheel as that is a small load and enables the heater to be used
less.

A colleague who has a Tesla 3 makes use of the programmed heating whilst
on charge feature during the Winter. He has a 25mile commute so using
the heater on the way home is not an issue with a 300mile range car. But
as it is on charge overnight, he has it programmed to run the heater
whilst still connected. That means even though it is parked on his drive
over night, when he was ready to leave for work, it was already warm and
any ice had melted.

I have a friend who has an electric car, VW I think, and it has heated seats
as well. I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most
wasteful ways to heat things up.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Paul wrote:
williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill

The heating is a lot.

4300W

30-35% of range.

Most new EVs employ heat pump technology which greatly reduced power
consumption over simple resistive heating. Range is still impacted in
winter but the difference is nearer 10% than 30-35%

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 29/11/2020 07:55, Tim+ wrote:


Most new EVs employ heat pump technology which greatly reduced power
consumption over simple resistive heating. Range is still impacted in
winter but the difference is nearer 10% than 30-35%

Tim



Just fit a diesel heater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NBMq5o_UJU

100s of listings on Ebay so possibly a popular item with electric car
owners

Battery capacity:-
https://youtu.be/tBaHExHwrbs?t=75


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On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:25:35 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most wasteful
ways to heat things up.

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the
current car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your arse
and back hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or
hands. What do you have to do, wear long johns and gloves?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" wrote:
I have a friend who has an electric car, VW I think, and it has heated seats
as well. I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most
wasteful ways to heat things up.

Much less wasteful than trying to heat up the whole car interior surely.

Heating something that one is in contact with is a very effective way
of using a small amount of heat. Motorcyclists use heated jackets and
there certainly isn't much spare electricity available on a 'bike.

--
Chris Green
·

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 09:11:13 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:25:35 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most
wasteful ways to heat things up.

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the current
car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your arse and back
hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or hands. What do
you have to do, wear long johns and gloves?

I love mine, simply because my back can be very stiff first thing in the
morning. The heated seat does wonders; I start off on the top setting (3)
and move down to 2, 1 and then off.



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My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
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In article , Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)
wrote:
I have a friend who has an electric car, VW I think, and it has heated
seats as well. I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the
most wasteful ways to heat things up. Brian

You've obviously not had them in a car.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 29/11/2020 05:00, williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill
The heater certainly hammers the battery on my PHEV but the trick is to
use the app to pre-heat while plugged-in, this warms the battery and the
car. Alternatively, ensure the ICE is running at the start of a trip and
then switch to electric when everything has warmed-up.
To use a quote from Sir Humphrey: buying a pure EV at the moment is a
"courageous decision" and it will be many years before I feel that
courageous.

on 29/11/2020, Brian Gaff (Sofa) supposed :
I have a friend who has an electric car, VW I think, and it has heated seats
as well. I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most
wasteful ways to heat things up.

If you must heat electrically, then they are very efficient, heating
the person rather than the cabin.

In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have a friend who has an electric car, VW I think, and it has heated
seats as well. I never really understood heated seats, must be one of
the most wasteful ways to heat things up.

Not so. On a petrol car etc, they get up to heat very quickly - far
quicker than the coolant driven heater. And since they only heat your bum,
quite an efficient way of doing things.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29 Nov 2020 10:23:45 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the
current car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your
arse
and back hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or
hands.
What do you have to do, wear long johns and gloves?

I love mine, simply because my back can be very stiff first thing in the
morning. The heated seat does wonders; I start off on the top setting
(3) and move down to 2, 1 and then off.

Fairly Nuff. No doubt with the cabin heater running as well. Try
driving for an hour when it's cold without the cabin heater. I
actually quite like to feel my feet and fingers.

--
Cheers
Dave.

mm0fmf used his keyboard to write :
A colleague who has a Tesla 3 makes use of the programmed heating whilst on
charge feature during the Winter. He has a 25mile commute so using the heater
on the way home is not an issue with a 300mile range car. But as it is on
charge overnight, he has it programmed to run the heater whilst still
connected. That means even though it is parked on his drive over night, when
he was ready to leave for work, it was already warm and any ice had melted.

I have a very efficient diesel, which needs lots of miles to get to
temperature, especially when it's cold. It is fitted with a diesel
burning 'night heater'. When it is really cold, I fire the heater up 20
minutes before setting off - engine and cabin are warmed, before I need
to get in to drive it.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:25:35 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most wasteful
ways to heat things up.

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the
current car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your arse
and back hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or
hands. What do you have to do, wear long johns and gloves?

My current car is the first I've had with them. Love them. Real boon until
the car heater gets going. Low setting doesn't make you sweaty. Full would
if you left it like that.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Liquorice pretended :
Fairly Nuff. No doubt with the cabin heater running as well. Try
driving for an hour when it's cold without the cabin heater. I
actually quite like to feel my feet and fingers.

I find seat heaters quite effective. Your body has the ability via the
blood stream, to spread warmth in one part of your body, to the rest of
your body.

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:59:39 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have a friend who has an electric car, VW I think, and it has heated
seats as well. I never really understood heated seats, must be one of
the most wasteful ways to heat things up.
Not so. On a petrol car etc, they get up to heat very quickly - far
quicker than the coolant driven heater. And since they only heat your bum,
quite an efficient way of doing things.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *
Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I love heated seats but would also like a heated steering wheel as my fingers take a long time to warm up but my present car has an app that allows me to preheat the interior and I rarely use the heated seats now.
There's more rubbish talked about electric cars and range. The simple way to use an electric car effectively is to keep topping up the battery when possible and not treated it like a petrol engine and run the tank low before refilling it. Also if embarking on a long journey research it first, establish the location of charging stations and plot the route accordingly around all high power charging stations and make allowance for any that may be occupied or not working. A good app will tell you this. The low power ones are useless unless you anticipate staying near one for a long period of time. I think the Tesla stations should be available to all even if they charge more for non Tesla cars Personally I have a BMW i3 rex which has a small motor bike engine which is used to recharge the battery when it gets too low and means as long as i can get to a petrol filling station I'm not going to be stuck and I could even carry a gallon of petrol if I was anal about it..
The article in yesterdays Guardian high lighted this. The problem there lay with the users lack of knowledge on using an electric vehicle.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the
current car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your arse
and back hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or
hands.

I don't really care if it warms my bum, but I love it heating my lower
back, I don't use it instead of air heating ...

On 29/11/2020 05:00:17, williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without
the headlamps on? etc etc.

I'm sure there will be a diesel heater accessory sold as a range
extender which can use red diesel.

On 29/11/2020 11:03, Tim Streater wrote:


They are the best way to get warm quickly in a cold car. They don't have to be
on for very long.


Yep and they melt the frost or ice on the windows rapidly!

In most cases even with previously de-frosting windows unless the
interior of the car in warm, or there is stream of hot air to the
windows, they will mist/freeze up again rather quickly. I find the
heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter conditions.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 03:21:25 -0800 (PST), fred wrote:

The article in yesterdays Guardian high lighted this. The problem there
lay with the users lack of knowledge on using an electric vehicle.

Disagree. They knew they would have to stop for a fast charge on the
return leg and had planned for that(*). The problems started when
that planned fast charger and almost every other one in the area was
also non-functional.

(*) You can't assume that they could plug into 13A socket at their
destination. Maybe the trip was just to drop a food
parcel/medicines/WHY off to someone before lockdown 2. ie they didn't
stop for any appreciable lenght of time.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:56:01 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On 29 Nov 2020 10:23:45 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the
current car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your
arse
and back hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or
hands.
What do you have to do, wear long johns and gloves?

I love mine, simply because my back can be very stiff first thing in
the morning. The heated seat does wonders; I start off on the top
setting (3) and move down to 2, 1 and then off.

Fairly Nuff. No doubt with the cabin heater running as well. Try driving
for an hour when it's cold without the cabin heater. I actually quite
like to feel my feet and fingers.

My journey to work was relatively short. Cabin heater really only kicked
in about two thirds of the way there. Had to wear gloves until then.


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

alan_m wrote:

I find the heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter
conditions.

Presume Ford have a patent stranglehold on heated screens? They seem to
chuck it in on even their base models, but other manufacturers either
don't have it as an option, or it costs arms and legs ...

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:58:43 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Fairly Nuff. No doubt with the cabin heater running as well. Try
driving for an hour when it's cold without the cabin heater. I
actually quite like to feel my feet and fingers.

I find seat heaters quite effective. Your body has the ability via the
blood stream, to spread warmth in one part of your body, to the rest of
your body.

Do you not get cold hands and feet when the air temp is below 5 C
ish? I do. I don't have cold hands in this room at 18 C but if I
drove for an hour today without the cabin heater warming the car to
18 C I would. It's just above 5 C outside...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:44:48 +0000, alan_m
wrote:
snip

Just fit a diesel heater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NBMq5o_UJU

100s of listings on Ebay so possibly a popular item with electric car
owners

snip

Mate just bought one for his VW weekender van and was asking me how he
could / should power it as I think hoping he could use a small
auxiliary battery, rather than having to run the main battery down.

As it's diesel it looks like it uses a glow plug to (initially) ignite
the fuel meaning it draws about 10A to start with and then drops down
to 1A after that (for the blower fan and fuel pump).

Depending on if it actually shuts right down when up to temp or not,
then if it was on for 8 hours overnight that could all add up re the
drain on any supply battery.

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:32:20 +0000, alan_m wrote:

In most cases even with previously de-frosting windows unless the
interior of the car in warm, or there is stream of hot air to the
windows, they will mist/freeze up again rather quickly. I find the
heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter conditions.

+1

Heated screen is one of the top requirements for a car. Way above
poncy heated seats. B-) Doesn't half draw some power though, very
noticeable change in engine note when when switched on, far more than
the heated rear screen lights etc combined.

--
Cheers
Dave.

fred explained on 29/11/2020 :
Also if embarking on a long journey research it first, establish the location
of charging stations and plot the route accordingly around all high power
charging stations and make allowance for any that may be occupied or not
working. A good app will tell you this. The low power ones are useless unless
you anticipate staying near one for a long period of time.

An unimaginable amount of guess work, hoping and planning for a
relatively trip, when compared to what I would need to do in my diesel.
In my diesel I just need to decide where I want to go and go, no
refuelling planning, whether I set off with a full or empty tank. If I
do need fuel, I am certain to find it day or night almost anywhere and
refuelling takes just minutes - no searching for stations, no finding
them closed, broken, or not compatible.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Heated screen is one of the top requirements for a car.

I just pour a few litres of fairly cool water over the car, only takes a
few seconds and works on all windows and door mirrors, not just front
and rear.

Dave Liquorice has brought this to us :
Do you not get cold hands and feet when the air temp is below 5 C
ish? I do. I don't have cold hands in this room at 18 C but if I
drove for an hour today without the cabin heater warming the car to
18 C I would. It's just above 5 C outside...

No, if my main body is warm, I don't have an issue.

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 12:22:28 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Heated screen is one of the top requirements for a car.

I just pour a few litres of fairly cool water over the car, only takes a
few seconds and works on all windows and door mirrors, not just front
and rear.

That would frequently just cover the car in ice and/or create an ice
rink around the car... Aerosol deicer on the side windows struggles
or even freezes at times. Start the car, press the auto defrost
button. Wander round clearing the side windows, lights etc. By the
time those have been done the screen is either clear or the wipers
can just push it off.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
alan_m wrote:

I find the heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter
conditions.

Presume Ford have a patent stranglehold on heated screens? They seem to
chuck it in on even their base models, but other manufacturers either
don't have it as an option, or it costs arms and legs ...

Yes - it's odd. Was surprised to buy a fully loaded BMW some time ago
without one.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Liquorice pretended :
That would frequently just cover the car in ice and/or create an ice
rink around the car... Aerosol deicer on the side windows struggles
or even freezes at times. Start the car, press the auto defrost
button. Wander round clearing the side windows, lights etc. By the
time those have been done the screen is either clear or the wipers
can just push it off.

I used to always do the warm water trick, never a problem.

Ford had the patent on the built into the screen heater wires, which
prevented other manufacturers using the system. I think Volvo were
allowed use of it. They worked great, when I owned Ford Granadas.

On 29/11/2020 12:07:38, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:44:48 +0000, alan_m
wrote:
snip

Just fit a diesel heater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NBMq5o_UJU

100s of listings on Ebay so possibly a popular item with electric car
owners

snip

Mate just bought one for his VW weekender van and was asking me how he
could / should power it as I think hoping he could use a small
auxiliary battery, rather than having to run the main battery down.

As it's diesel it looks like it uses a glow plug to (initially) ignite
the fuel meaning it draws about 10A to start with and then drops down
to 1A after that (for the blower fan and fuel pump).

Depending on if it actually shuts right down when up to temp or not,
then if it was on for 8 hours overnight that could all add up re the
drain on any supply battery.

It is normal to have a leisure battery and a voltage controlled relay
that connects the two whilst the engine is running and in charging mode.

That leaves the starter battery isolated and can perform it's normal
duties independent of any auxiliary loads.

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 09:11:13 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:25:35 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I never really understood heated seats, must be one of the most
wasteful ways to heat things up.

Last three cars have had heated seats. Don't like them, even the current
car with two heat seatings. The lowest still makes your arse and back
hot and sweaty and don't do anything for feet, knees or hands. What do
you have to do, wear long johns and gloves?

I love mine, simply because my back can be very stiff first thing in the
morning. The heated seat does wonders; I start off on the top setting (3)
and move down to 2, 1 and then off.

personally I prefer sitting on a cold seat (though not a freezing cold one)

but I still want my arms and legs to be warm

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice pretended :
Fairly Nuff. No doubt with the cabin heater running as well. Try
driving for an hour when it's cold without the cabin heater. I
actually quite like to feel my feet and fingers.

I find seat heaters quite effective. Your body has the ability via the
blood stream, to spread warmth in one part of your body, to the rest of
your body.

OTOH

the body has the tendency not to heat up the extremities when it is short of
heat to move around

and it's exactly those parts of my body that I want heated up most

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
alan_m wrote:

I find the heated front screen on my car a bonus in frost/winter
conditions.

Presume Ford have a patent stranglehold on heated screens? They seem to
chuck it in on even their base models, but other manufacturers either
don't have it as an option, or it costs arms and legs ...

must be out of patent by now

it's been at least 30 years

wrote in message
...
On 29/11/2020 05:00, williamwright wrote:
Presumably the battery capacity drops with age and usage. That's another
variable then. Dare I put the heater on? Shall I try to drive without the
headlamps on? etc etc.

Bill
The heater certainly hammers the battery on my PHEV but the trick is to
use the app to pre-heat while plugged-in, this warms the battery and the
car.

another nail in the coffin for the "just drop by the fuel station on your
way to work for a daily fast charge" solution, for those of us who live in
suburban streets without off street parking

In article ,
tim... wrote:
another nail in the coffin for the "just drop by the fuel station on your
way to work for a daily fast charge" solution, for those of us who live in
suburban streets without off street parking

There's no real reason there couldn't be lots of on street chargers. Such
things already exist. Just not enough of them, if and when electric cars
become the norm.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/11/2020 14:11, tim... wrote:


"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice pretended :
Fairly Nuff. No doubt with the cabin heater running as well. Try
driving for an hour when it's cold without the cabin heater. I
actually quite like to feel my feet and fingers.

I find seat heaters quite effective. Your body has the ability via the
blood stream, to spread warmth in one part of your body, to the rest
of your body.

OTOH

the body has the tendency not to heat up the extremities when it is
short of heat to move around

and it's exactly those parts of my body that I want heated up most



OTOH its those parts that flush when you are too hot....anyway it's not
heated seats OR Cabin heat, it's an adjunct.


--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.