On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:12:42 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:46:33 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

I am basically an ABC, Anyone But Conservative. But New Lab, is aiming for
desperately needed constitutional change, so they have to stay. The country
have to break these elf interest Medieval institutions.

I'm all for modernisation, but Labour is breaking the kinds of
traditions that have served Britain so well for centuries. Lord Woolf
today warned against the Draconian proposals to change the justice
system, and hardly a day goes by when Blunkett doesn't try out his
latest "Heydrich" manoeuvre. We already have the largest prison
population in Europe, yet the Govt seems desperate to lock ever more
people away, while preventing Maxine Carr from utilising HDC, a
thoroughly political decision merely to appease the right-wing gutter
press.

Basically, this Labour government is not the Labour of old, neither is
it Tory or liberal, but some weird hybrid, led by Tony Blair in a very
dogmatic, but wrong, fashion. I dread to think what Blair actually has
in his mind as the ideal blueprint for Britain over the next ten,
twenty years, but I'll bet not many citizens will like it much.

MM

I don't think that it would matter to him as long as it led to his
career aim of being life president of the United States of Europe.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:47:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:46:33 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Sad days indeed. Poverty and deprivation in abundance.

Really?

Yes, Andy, in the real world there was.

That's curious. I'm in the real world and did not see substantive
evidence of that at that time. However, I was approached by
somebody last week trying to sell the Big Issue and this wasn't under
the arches at Waterloo station.



7 years of "New" Labour)

The best we have had in countless decades.

I am basically an ABC, Anyone But Conservative. But New Lab, is
aiming
for
desperately needed constitutional change, so they have to stay.

That doesn't compute. What little constitutional change is needed
doesn't require TB

Andy, the UK requires massive constitutional change, to rid ourselves of
a
tier of parasites.

Such as cabinet ministers.

WE could all have a dictatorship if you want and live in bliss.

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:46:33 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

I am basically an ABC, Anyone But Conservative. But New Lab, is aiming
for
desperately needed constitutional change, so they have to stay. The
country
have to break these elf interest Medieval institutions.

I'm all for modernisation, but Labour is breaking the kinds of
traditions that have served Britain so well for centuries. Lord Woolf
today warned against the Draconian proposals to change the justice
system, and hardly a day goes by when Blunkett doesn't try out his
latest "Heydrich" manoeuvre. We already have the largest prison
population in Europe, yet the Govt seems desperate to lock ever more
people away, while preventing Maxine Carr from utilising HDC, a
thoroughly political decision merely to appease the right-wing gutter
press.

Basically, this Labour government is not the Labour of old, neither is
it Tory or liberal, but some weird hybrid, led by Tony Blair in a very
dogmatic, but wrong, fashion. I dread to think what Blair actually has
in his mind as the ideal blueprint for Britain over the next ten,
twenty years, but I'll bet not many citizens will like it much.

If anyone can get this country anywhere near a meritocracy, getting rid of a
landowning aristocratic parasitic tier, fully democratic and an open free
information society then I am with them.

Blair is the only one who has done something, but nowhere near enough, and
he aims to do more. He has to stay. he Libs will implement proportional
representation and that is all, and the Tories will do nothing or reverse to
take us backwards.

Thatcher gave meritocracy lip service but did eff all. Eton, Harrow,
Oxbridge, Guards, and the rest of the ******** still rule. It is pathetic
in a so called modern country.

Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws too.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:15:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




WE could all have a dictatorship if you want and live in bliss.

I thought we did, but I wouldn't use "bliss" as a term to describe
it.......
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws too.

Your last statement is your most accurate.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws too.

Your last statement is your most accurate.

And the others are 0.00000001% behind.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:15:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

WE could all have a dictatorship if you want and live in bliss.

I thought we did, but I wouldn't use "bliss" as a term to describe
it.......

You are annoyed because Dracula is not in charge. Andy, you will have to
get to now how the Uk is run and who the greatest benefactors are. And it
isn't you and me. The biggest takers name begins with Qu.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:06:34 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:15:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

WE could all have a dictatorship if you want and live in bliss.

I thought we did, but I wouldn't use "bliss" as a term to describe
it.......

You are annoyed because Dracula is not in charge. Andy, you will have to
get to now how the Uk is run and who the greatest benefactors are. And it
isn't you and me.

That's for sure.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws too.

Ask yourself, why do we need "anti-social" laws? (I assume you mean
legislation to confront anti-social behaviour.) What is so wrong
particularly with *British* society that so many citizens, not just
the young, appear to have absolutely no sense of right and wrong at
all? How many kids dread their parents being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father? British society is incredibly
confrontational.

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws too.

Ask yourself, why do we need "anti-social"
laws? (I assume you mean legislation to
confront anti-social behaviour.)

That is it, and even more.

What is so wrong
particularly with *British* society that so many
citizens, not just the young, appear to
have absolutely no sense of right and wrong at
all?

We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's children". She said there is
no such thing as society and promoted in a big way, me, me, me. Millions of
kids were brought up in that era being indoctrinated with selfishness and
non sense of community, and it now shows.

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany, Holland,
etc. Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping. Travellers persecute
rural areas (and urban too) and when eventually are moved on leave the place
strewn with filth that cost many 1000s to clear up.

How many kids dread their parents being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father? British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher. New Lab is left with the mess and is putting that right by
legislation and civil lessons at school. Great moves by New Lab. Although
root cause analysis says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source. Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family. Only 7% of homes have the mother at
home all day. Why? Because we pay far too much in mortgages. Why?
Because we have an artificial land shortage ramping up land, and hence house
prices (2/3 of the value of the average house is the value of the land).
Get the land sorted out, get the house prices down to affordable levels, and
then only the Dad need go out to work to support the family, then more
stable children and families. All quite simple.

Blame Thatcher.

Yes of course that's it!, in fact blame her long after she's dead!...

New Lab is left with the mess and is putting that right by
legislation and civil lessons at school. Great moves by New Lab. Although
root cause analysis says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source. Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family. Only 7% of homes have the mother at
home all day. Why? Because we pay far too much in mortgages. Why?
Because we have an artificial land shortage ramping up land, and hence house
prices (2/3 of the value of the average house is the value of the land).
Get the land sorted out, get the house prices down to affordable levels, and
then only the Dad need go out to work to support the family, then more
stable children and families. All quite simple.


Well....IMM...for president!....


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Mike Mitchell wrote:

What is so wrong
particularly with *British* society that so many citizens, not just
the young, appear to have absolutely no sense of right and wrong at
all?

Over a decade of Thatcherism and its subsequent continuation by other
means.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Blame Thatcher.

Yes of course that's it!, in fact blame her long after she's dead!...

She is not dead.

New Lab is left with the mess and is putting that right by
legislation and civil lessons at school. Great moves by New Lab.
Although
root cause analysis says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source. Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the latchkey kids as homes require
two
parents to work to support the family. Only 7% of homes have the mother
at
home all day. Why? Because we pay far too much in mortgages. Why?
Because we have an artificial land shortage ramping up land, and hence
house
prices (2/3 of the value of the average house is the value of the land).
Get the land sorted out, get the house prices down to affordable levels,
and
then only the Dad need go out to work to support the family, then more
stable children and families. All quite simple.


Well....IMM...for president!....

Well said.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws too.

Ask yourself, why do we need "anti-social"
laws? (I assume you mean legislation to
confront anti-social behaviour.)

That is it, and even more.

What is so wrong
particularly with *British* society that so many
citizens, not just the young, appear to
have absolutely no sense of right and wrong at
all?

We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's children". She said there is
no such thing as society and promoted in a big way, me, me, me. Millions of
kids were brought up in that era being indoctrinated with selfishness and
non sense of community, and it now shows.

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany, Holland,
etc. Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping. Travellers persecute
rural areas (and urban too) and when eventually are moved on leave the place
strewn with filth that cost many 1000s to clear up.

How many kids dread their parents being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father? British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher. New Lab is left with the mess and is putting that right by
legislation and civil lessons at school. Great moves by New Lab. Although
root cause analysis says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source. Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family. Only 7% of homes have the mother at
home all day. Why? Because we pay far too much in mortgages. Why?
Because we have an artificial land shortage ramping up land, and hence house
prices (2/3 of the value of the average house is the value of the land).
Get the land sorted out, get the house prices down to affordable levels, and
then only the Dad need go out to work to support the family, then more
stable children and families. All quite simple.

Yep! Works for me! But the Labour Government will do none of the
above, only promise to.

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Blair does run the economy well and some excellent anti-social laws
too.

Ask yourself, why do we need "anti-social"
laws? (I assume you mean legislation to
confront anti-social behaviour.)

That is it, and even more.

What is so wrong
particularly with *British* society that so many
citizens, not just the young, appear to
have absolutely no sense of right and wrong at
all?

We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's children". She said there
is
no such thing as society and promoted in a big way, me, me, me. Millions
of
kids were brought up in that era being indoctrinated with selfishness and
non sense of community, and it now shows.

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany,
Holland,
etc. Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping. Travellers
persecute
rural areas (and urban too) and when eventually are moved on leave the
place
strewn with filth that cost many 1000s to clear up.

How many kids dread their parents being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father? British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher. New Lab is left with the mess and is putting that right
by
legislation and civil lessons at school. Great moves by New Lab.
Although
root cause analysis says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source. Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the latchkey kids as homes require
two
parents to work to support the family. Only 7% of homes have the mother
at
home all day. Why? Because we pay far too much in mortgages. Why?
Because we have an artificial land shortage ramping up land, and hence
house
prices (2/3 of the value of the average house is the value of the land).
Get the land sorted out, get the house prices down to affordable levels,
and
then only the Dad need go out to work to support the family, then more
stable children and families. All quite simple.

Yep! Works for me! But the Labour Government will do none of the
above, only promise to.

It is doing the legislation and civil lesson bit. It is the land that needs
to be addressed pronto.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's children". She said there is
no such thing as society and promoted in a big way, me, me, me.

I don't think that that was it, but rather an encouragement to take
responsibility for one's own environment and outcome rather than
expecting the state to do it. There's a big difference between
taking responsibility for one's self and family as opposed to being
selfish and having no consideration for others.

As a guiding principle, one should be able to do what one likes
provided that it does not impinge on the equal right of others to do
what they like.

Millions of
kids were brought up in that era being indoctrinated with selfishness and
non sense of community, and it now shows.

I don't think that there was indoctrination about selfishness and
certainly nothing specific to the UK. My observation is that this
is a worldwide problem reflected by the media.



Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany, Holland,
etc.

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention, and in about the same
amount. The only place where I have noticed a substantial
difference is in Monaco.

Travellers persecute
rural areas (and urban too) and when eventually are moved on leave the place
strewn with filth that cost many 1000s to clear up.

That happens everywhere as well.


How many kids dread their parents being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father? British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher.

For what? One can always level a charge sheet against a former
prime minister. Those of Wilson and Callaghan hardly show them as
paragons of virtue.

New Lab is left with the mess and is putting that right by
legislation and civil lessons at school. Great moves by New Lab. Although
root cause analysis says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source.

Constitutional change has very little to do with it. There is a
complete spectrum of constitutional structures all over the western
world and they all have the societal difficulties that we do.

Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family.

That has been the case since the 50s.

Only 7% of homes have the mother at
home all day. Why?

Because women also want to pursue a career outside the home and
society doesn't hold staying at home and bringing up kids in high
esteem any longer. It doesn't reward women equally in the workplace
either, but that's another story.


snip babble




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's
children". She said "there is no such thing as
society" and promoted it in a big way, me, me, me.

Our resident Little Middle Englander comes in to defend the indefensible.
He enters the fray.....

I don't think that that was it,

It was.

but rather an encouragement to take
responsibility for one's own environment
and outcome rather than expecting the
state to do it.

NO. She encouraged Me, me, me, F**k you I'm all right.

Little Middle Englander continues...

There's a big difference between
taking responsibility for one's self and
family as opposed to being
selfish and having no consideration for others.

The wicked witch encouraged the latter. I know I was there, I saw it. I
was, amongst millions of others, totally disgusted at what was enfolding
before our very eyes.

As a guiding principle, one should be able to do what one likes
provided that it does not impinge on the equal right of others to do
what they like.

Millions of kids were brought up in that era
being indoctrinated with selfishness and
none sense of community, and it now shows.

The Little Middle Englander goes on.....

I don't think that there was indoctrination
about selfishness

Millions saw differently.

and certainly nothing
specific to the UK. My observation is that this
is a worldwide problem reflected by the media.

Not so. The UK is particularly bad.

Britain is filthy. Travel around western
Europe: France: Germany, Holland,
etc.

Little Middle Englander says...

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

Nowhere near to the disgusting levels of the UK. Although in recent years,
since New Lab got on the job, it has got better.


Little Middle Englander says...

and in about the same
amount.

Millions do not share that view, as they too see the marked difference.

The only place where I have noticed a substantial
difference is in Monaco.

Travellers persecute
rural areas (and urban too) and when eventually
are moved on leave the place
strewn with filth that cost many 1000s to clear up.

That happens everywhere as well.

Not to the levels of the Thatcher inspired UK

How many kids dread their parents
being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know
that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father?
British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher.

Little Middle Englander exclaims.

For what?

The appalling bad attitude of the generation she influenced.

One can always level a charge sheet
against a former prime minister. Those
of Wilson and Callaghan hardly show them as
paragons of virtue.

Compared to the Wicked Witch Thatcher, theya reparagons of virtue.

New Lab is left with the mess and
is putting that right by legislation and
civil lessons at school. Great moves by
New Lab. Although root cause analysis
says it is even deeper and constitutional change can
only stop it at source.

The naivety of the Little Middle Englander abounds.....

Constitutional change has very little to do with it.

He is unable to identify the root cause .

There is a complete spectrum of
constitutional structures all over the western
world and they all have the societal difficulties
that we do.

Not to the levels of the UK.

Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the
latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family.

That has been the case since the 50s.

And that may be so, but worse under the Wicked Witch. And yes the 1947 T&C
Planning act was in effect in the 1950s too.

Only 7% of homes have the mother at
home all day. Why?

Our Little Middle Englander retorts...

Because women also want to pursue a
career outside the home

Compared to the number of women about very few are career women, and the
vast majority want to be at home with the kiddies.

Our Little Middle Englander has strange views on society .....

and society doesn't hold staying at home
and bringing up kids in high esteem any longer.

They have no choice. Either live in a sink estate or both parent work and
the family suffers, and hence society at large.

IMM wrote:

Our resident Little Middle Englander comes in to defend the indefensible.
He enters the fray.....

While I understand that you have little to no control over the
pseudo-political crap you spout, do you have to be so insulting while
doing it?

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Our resident Little Middle Englander comes in to defend the
indefensible.
He enters the fray.....

While I understand that you have little to no control over the
pseudo-political crap you spout,

Well when you say it as it is, I have no control. You are right.

do you have to be so insulting while
doing it?

Who is insulting? How dare you!

In article , Grunff
wrote:
IMM wrote:

Our resident Little Middle Englander comes in to defend the indefensible.
He enters the fray.....

While I understand that you have little to no control over the
pseudo-political crap you spout, do you have to be so insulting while
doing it?

Now I know that my mood may not have been all it could be for the last
Trotsky. Maybe it's me being impatient, but I don't even laugh at his posts
anymore, just skip past them. As such, he has dropped into my killfile
today.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...
In article , Grunff
wrote:
IMM wrote:

Our resident Little Middle Englander comes in to defend the
indefensible.
He enters the fray.....

While I understand that you have little to no control over the
pseudo-political crap you spout, do you have to be so insulting while
doing it?

Now I know that my mood may not have been all it could be for the last
Trotsky. Maybe it's me being impatient, but I don't even laugh at his
posts
anymore, just skip past them. As such, he has dropped into my killfile
today.

Thank You.

In article ,
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:

Now I know that my mood may not have been all it could be for the last
Trotsky. Maybe it's me being impatient, but I don't even laugh at his posts
anymore, just skip past them. As such, he has dropped into my killfile
today.

See? I still can't make any sense. There should have been another sentence
in there, but the gist is, IMM is killfiled as he seems to serve no useful
purpose.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:

See? I still can't make any sense. There should have been another sentence
in there, but the gist is, IMM is killfiled as he seems to serve no useful
purpose.


Well, I must say I have also been disappointed with his performance of
late. AFA I'm concerned, his primary purpose is to keep other trolls
away - that's how he earns his troll food. But the recent invasions
clearly demonstrate that he is neglecting those duties.

--
Grunff

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:

Now I know that my mood may not have been all it could be for the last
Trotsky. Maybe it's me being impatient, but I don't even laugh at his
posts
anymore, just skip past them. As such, he has dropped into my killfile
today.

See? I still can't make any sense. There should have been another sentence
in there, but the gist is, IMM is killfiled as he seems to serve no useful
purpose.

Another of the Thatcher influenced can't take it. Sad really, very sad.
New Lab has a hell of a job on its hands changing the warped mentality of
this bunch.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:

See? I still can't make any sense. There should have been another
sentence
in there, but the gist is, IMM is killfiled as he seems to serve no
useful
purpose.

Well, I must say I have also been disappointed with his performance of
late. AFA I'm concerned, his primary purpose is to keep other trolls
away - that's how he earns his troll food. But the recent invasions
clearly demonstrate that he is neglecting those duties.

More Little Middle Englanders! Sad isn't it.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:47:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's
children". She said "there is no such thing as
society" and promoted it in a big way, me, me, me.

Our resident Little Middle Englander comes in to defend the indefensible.

I thought that that was your forte.




NO. She encouraged Me, me, me, F**k you I'm all right.

I don't recall her use of the F-word.......





The wicked witch encouraged the latter. I know I was there, I saw it.

Where?





I don't think that there was indoctrination
about selfishness

Millions saw differently.

I wonder if it was the same millions who can now see through the
current regime.



Not so. The UK is particularly bad.

Not from my observation.



Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

Nowhere near to the disgusting levels of the UK.

Not my observation, and I typically spend around a third of my time
outside the UK.

Although in recent years,
since New Lab got on the job, it has got better.

I don't think so.




Millions do not share that view, as they too see the marked difference.

Which I suppose leaves millions who do.



Not to the levels of the Thatcher inspired UK

I don't believe that any government has that fine level of influence.



How many kids dread their parents
being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know
that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father?
British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher.



For what?

The appalling bad attitude of the generation she influenced.

A worldwide issue. I don't believe that MT, even in her wildest
dreams imagined that she had that level of influence.


One can always level a charge sheet
against a former prime minister. Those
of Wilson and Callaghan hardly show them as
paragons of virtue.

Compared to the Wicked Witch Thatcher, theya reparagons of virtue.

When is your next trip to the optician's?






Constitutional change has very little to do with it.

He is unable to identify the root cause .

The root cause is the regular changing of policies by successive
governments on issues that take at least a generation for an effect to
be seen.




There is a complete spectrum of
constitutional structures all over the western
world and they all have the societal difficulties
that we do.

Not to the levels of the UK.

Don't get out much, do you?



Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the
latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family.

That has been the case since the 50s.

And that may be so, but worse under the Wicked Witch.

I'd never seen our "first lady" in quite that way.



Because women also want to pursue a
career outside the home

Compared to the number of women about very few are career women, and the
vast majority want to be at home with the kiddies.

I would ask around about that if I were you, but you might want to
wear a cricket box when doing so; assuming that it is relevant of
course.




They have no choice. Either live in a sink estate or both parent work and
the family suffers, and hence society at large.

I don't disagree with you about the integrity of the family, but there
are numerous causes of juvenile crime and antisocial behaviour.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

We are now seeing the results of "Thatcher's
children". She said "there is no such thing as
society" and promoted it in a big way, me, me, me.

Our resident Little Middle Englander
comes in to defend the indefensible.

I thought that that was your forte.

No you are the Little Middle Englander, not me.

NO. She encouraged Me, me, me, F**k you I'm all right.

I don't recall her use of the F-word.......

That was the only word she left out.

The wicked witch encouraged the
latter. I know I was there, I saw it.

Where?

In the UK Andy, not on Mars or in snakeland.

I don't think that there was indoctrination
about selfishness

Millions saw differently.

I wonder if it was the same millions
who can now see through the
current regime.

The current regime can be seen straight through. It is transparent for all
to see.

Not so. The UK is particularly bad.

Not from my observation.

Well from Mars or Snakeland you might get a strange view of matters.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

Nowhere near to the disgusting
levels of the UK.

Not my observation, and I typically
spend around a third of my time
outside the UK.

Do you ever look?

Although in recent years,
since New Lab got on the job, it has got better.

I don't think so.

I know so, Andy.

Millions do not share that view, as they
too see the marked difference.

Which I suppose leaves millions who do.

That is even more millions who do.

Not to the levels of the Thatcher inspired UK

I don't believe that any government has that
fine level of influence.

The Wicked Witch did.

How many kids dread their parents
being called to the school to
talk to the teacher, when they know
that the teacher could easily face
a head-butting from a crazed father?
British society is incredibly
confrontational.

Blame Thatcher.

For what?

The appalling bad attitude of the
generation she influenced.

Which you are obviously one.

A worldwide issue. I don't believe that
MT, even in her wildest
dreams imagined that she had that
level of influence.

She tried and did get to the hard of thinking.

One can always level a charge sheet
against a former prime minister. Those
of Wilson and Callaghan hardly show them as
paragons of virtue.

Compared to the Wicked Witch Thatcher,
they are paragons of virtue.

When is your next trip to the optician's?

Thank you for your concern of my welfare. When ate you due the clinic?

Constitutional change has very little
to do with it.

He is unable to identify the root cause .

The root cause is the regular changing
of policies by successive
governments on issues that take at least
a generation for an effect to
be seen.

As I said "He is unable to identify the root cause". Very sad.

There is a complete spectrum of
constitutional structures all over the western
world and they all have the societal difficulties
that we do.

Not to the levels of the UK.

Don't get out much, do you?

All the time and everywgere.

Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the
latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family.

That has been the case since the 50s.

And that may be so, but worse under the Wicked Witch.

I'd never seen our "first lady" in quite that way.

A Little Middle Englander would not.

Because women also want to pursue a
career outside the home

Compared to the number of women
about very few are career women, and the
vast majority want to be at home with the kiddies.

I would ask around about that if I were you,
but you might want to wear a cricket box when
doing so; assuming that it is relevant of
course.

Women do want to care for their children full time.

They have no choice. Either live in
a sink estate or both parent work and
the family suffers, and hence society at large.

I don't disagree with you about the integrity
of the family, but there are numerous causes
of juvenile crime and antisocial behaviour.

And only having 7% of mothers at home full time is by far the biggest, and
it all comes down to land availability. We have the land...

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:40:55 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Not my observation, and I typically spend around a third of my time
outside the UK.

You must be picking up usenet when you are abroad then - hardly a day
goes by when you haven't contributed something positive to this
newsgroup!

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:01:01 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



No you are the Little Middle Englander, not me.

Err, I believe you introduced that label, none of the words of which
actually apply.




The current regime can be seen straight through. It is transparent for all
to see.

That's a common thread to a lot of things that are spinning.




Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

Nowhere near to the disgusting
levels of the UK.

Not my observation, and I typically
spend around a third of my time
outside the UK.

Do you ever look?

I certainly notice if somewhere is or isn't clean.




Not to the levels of the Thatcher inspired UK

I don't believe that any government has that
fine level of influence.

The Wicked Witch did.

I think you have a vivid imagination.



Blame Thatcher.

For what?

The appalling bad attitude of the
generation she influenced.

Which you are obviously one.

A little older than that.



A worldwide issue. I don't believe that
MT, even in her wildest
dreams imagined that she had that
level of influence.

She tried and did get to the hard of thinking.

So, I'm curious as to why you're not a devout supporter.



One can always level a charge sheet
against a former prime minister. Those
of Wilson and Callaghan hardly show them as
paragons of virtue.

Compared to the Wicked Witch Thatcher,
they are paragons of virtue.

When is your next trip to the optician's?

Thank you for your concern of my welfare. When ate you due the clinic?

In English please.


Constitutional change has very little
to do with it.

He is unable to identify the root cause .

The root cause is the regular changing
of policies by successive
governments on issues that take at least
a generation for an effect to
be seen.

As I said "He is unable to identify the root cause". Very sad.

TB you mean?


There is a complete spectrum of
constitutional structures all over the western
world and they all have the societal difficulties
that we do.

Not to the levels of the UK.

Don't get out much, do you?

All the time and everywgere.

From dance hall to dance hall?



Because women also want to pursue a
career outside the home

Compared to the number of women
about very few are career women, and the
vast majority want to be at home with the kiddies.

I would ask around about that if I were you,
but you might want to wear a cricket box when
doing so; assuming that it is relevant of
course.

Women do want to care for their children full time.

Some do, and some would like to combine a career with raising
children.



They have no choice. Either live in
a sink estate or both parent work and
the family suffers, and hence society at large.

I don't disagree with you about the integrity
of the family, but there are numerous causes
of juvenile crime and antisocial behaviour.

And only having 7% of mothers at home full time is by far the biggest, and
it all comes down to land availability. We have the land...

That's a gross oversimplification and misses all the issues.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...


Snip IMM's inane drivel


Legislation is welcome, but only treating the
symptoms not the cause. Many blame the
latchkey kids as homes require two
parents to work to support the family.

That has been the case since the 50s.

And that may be so, but worse under the Wicked Witch.

I'd never seen our "first lady" in quite that way.

A Little Middle Englander would not.

Methinks the irony just went whoosh, straight over your head.


Because women also want to pursue a
career outside the home

Compared to the number of women
about very few are career women, and the
vast majority want to be at home with the kiddies.

I would ask around about that if I were you,
but you might want to wear a cricket box when
doing so; assuming that it is relevant of
course.

Women do want to care for their children full time.

Well, I just showed my wife your post, and her response was that if you're
ever in Barnsley please come over, she like to introduce you to a good solid
right hook.

Cheers
Clive

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:11:23 +0000, PoP wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:40:55 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Not my observation, and I typically spend around a third of my time
outside the UK.

You must be picking up usenet when you are abroad then - hardly a day
goes by when you haven't contributed something positive to this
newsgroup!


VPNs make many things possible.

It's surprising how many places have wireless hot spots now. There
are starting to be roaming agreements between operators as well and
prices are starting to fall.

One of the main railway routes in Germany is experimenting with
satellite provided internet services and a number of the airlines as
well.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 13 Feb 2004 13:11:55 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Mike Mitchell writes:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

[41 lines snipped]

home all day. Why? Because we pay far too much in mortgages. Why?
Because we have an artificial land shortage ramping up land, and hence house
prices (2/3 of the value of the average house is the value of the land).
Get the land sorted out, get the house prices down to affordable levels, and
then only the Dad need go out to work to support the family, then more
stable children and families. All quite simple.

Yep! Works for me! But the Labour Government will do none of the
above, only promise to.

You forgot about the appointment of Czars, focus groups, outreach
consultants, communications directors ...

....all part of the smoke and mirrors effects that we have come to know
and not love from oh so lovable Tony and his fellow magicians.

MM

"Clive Summerfield" wrote in message
...

Snip inane drivel

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:05:56 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

[snip]

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany, Holland,
etc.

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

In the case of Germany and Holland, that is patently NOT the case! How
you can possibly suggest that those two countries have the same litter
problem as Britain, beats me! When I have spent a week in Germany,
then return to the UK, as soon as I emerge from the barriers at
Heathrow I notice how everything you look at looks tacky, cheap,
inferior, worn, badly maintained. Everywhere. You. Look. The buses,
the Tube, the restaurants, the streets, the dress-sense, the
grubbiness of the place is quite impressive. Take a GOOD look next
time you travel, okay?!!

MM

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:40:55 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Not my observation, and I typically spend around a third of my time
outside the UK.

You must be picking up usenet when you are abroad then - hardly a day
goes by when you haven't contributed something positive to this
newsgroup!

Can you tell me which day this was?

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:05:56 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

[snip]

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany,
Holland,
etc.

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

In the case of Germany and Holland, that is patently NOT the case!

And all of Scandinavia and very rare in France.

How
you can possibly suggest that those two countries have the same litter
problem as Britain, beats me! When I have spent a week in Germany,
then return to the UK, as soon as I emerge from the barriers at
Heathrow I notice how everything you look at looks tacky, cheap,
inferior, worn, badly maintained. Everywhere. You. Look. The buses,
the Tube, the restaurants, the streets, the dress-sense, the
grubbiness of the place is quite impressive. Take a GOOD look next
time you travel, okay?!!

Asking Andy to see reality is taking it a bit too far.

IMM wrote:

You must be picking up usenet when you are abroad then - hardly a day
goes by when you haven't contributed something positive to this
newsgroup!


Can you tell me which day this was?

OMG!!

It would be pretty hilarious for anyone to question the positive
contribution Andy makes to the group, but coming from you it's a real gem.

--
Grunff

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:37:33 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:05:56 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

[snip]

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany, Holland,
etc.

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

In the case of Germany and Holland, that is patently NOT the case!

I'm sorry, but it is. It depends on where you look.

There are parts of Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Frankfurt, Munich,
cities of the Ruhrgebiet .... which have serious litter problems,
among others.



Countries that are held on a pedestal of apparent neatness and
civilisation have among the worst problems but sometimes manifest in
other ways. For example, Bern, the federal capital of Switzerland
has one of the highest incidences of hard drugs use in the western
world. The public park next to the parliament building is
permanently littered with used syringes and needles such that people
can't use it safely. Yet everybody believes that this is the epitome
of a well run society.



How
you can possibly suggest that those two countries have the same litter
problem as Britain, beats me!

I didn't say that it was necessarily as bad in other countries, (i.e.
I haven't counted the number of sweetie papers on the ground to three
decimal places), but the issue is there, nonetheless.

When I have spent a week in Germany,
then return to the UK, as soon as I emerge from the barriers at
Heathrow I notice how everything you look at looks tacky, cheap,
inferior, worn, badly maintained.

Around Heathrow that is arguably true, but is not representative of
all of the country. The immediate environs of airports like any
other port anywhere are not representative of the rest of a country.

Everywhere. You. Look. The buses,
the Tube, the restaurants, the streets, the dress-sense, the
grubbiness of the place is quite impressive. Take a GOOD look next
time you travel, okay?!!

On all of the things that you list, there are examples of better and
worse in every country. The grass always does look greener.
I travel to somewhere most weeks, often to multiple countries and I
see a great deal. There is no glamour in it, believe me. I talk
to a lot of people, both in business and socially and the same issues
are raised.

I would suggest that you take a look next time you travel. Things
are not what they seem.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:37:33 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:05:56 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

[snip]

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany, Holland,
etc.

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

In the case of Germany and Holland, that is patently NOT the case! How
you can possibly suggest that those two countries have the same litter
problem as Britain, beats me! When I have spent a week in Germany,
then return to the UK, as soon as I emerge from the barriers at
Heathrow I notice how everything you look at looks tacky, cheap,
inferior, worn, badly maintained. Everywhere. You. Look. The buses,
the Tube, the restaurants, the streets, the dress-sense, the
grubbiness of the place is quite impressive. Take a GOOD look next
time you travel, okay?!!

There is a difference between London -- and particularly Heathrow --
and the rest of the country. London and its major airport are, IMO,
vile: a friend of mine (visiting from the US) described London as
having " a pervasive smell of rotting Big Macs" :-( London's all
round unpleasantness is matched only by the baffling belief of its
inhabitants that they live in a "world class" city.

This country does seem intent to make its major airports follow the
traditional path of its main railway stations: i.e., to immediately
confront the arriving passenger with the worst the country has to
offer. I have wondered in the past how first-time visitors to the UK
react if they have an early-morning arrival into LHR T3 and have to
transit to another terminal, given that the conditions in both the T3
waiting area and the transfer buses would be illegal if the passengers
were farm animals ...



--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:12:03 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:05:56 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

[snip]

Britain is filthy. Travel around western Europe,: France: Germany,
Holland,
etc.

I do. Extensively.

Britain is strewn with litter and fly tipping.

So are the other countries that you mention,

In the case of Germany and Holland, that is patently NOT the case!

And all of Scandinavia and very rare in France.

I frequently visit Sweden, Norway and Denmark. All of these
countries have problems with litter, dog sh*t on the pavements,
graffiti etc. especially in the capital cities. Away from these,
it's less of an issue, but only because the population density drops
markedly.

France is not remarkably different either. One can visit different
arrondissements in Paris and find that some are exemplary and others
are appalling. Fly tipping happens in rural parts of France just as
it does here.

It isn't supportable to say that the UK has a singularly bad problem
with respect to litter and similar social maladies.






..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl