"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fda878@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-09 23:49:35 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



newshound wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
Screwfix have a kit with a Ryobi 18v (one+) combo drill and an
impact driver with two batteries, charger and bag for £100.
Seems good value but are the tools Ok?

Go for it! The Ryobi is excellent. Well made as does what they
say. The ONE+ batteries are top quality and have Panasonic cells.

I'd agree with that. I've given a 14.4 ryobi drill plus angle drill
with two batteries and a good fast charger a fair old hammering over
the past few years, although I did just replace one set of cells. I
also have a mains standard impact drill which has been fine, also a
small petrol strimmer. Not De Walt, but I'd rate them for the
reasonably serious DIYer who can't claim tax relief.

Nail, hit, head there matey.


More like hit thumb with hammer.



I can justify spending a little extra for a
tool I use every day because Golden Brown is paying for some of it, DIY
people can't.


That isn't correct. There are many more factors involved than a
simple one of every day use or not and tax relief or not. The
difference in actual and opportunity cost between mid market products
such as Ryobi and good quality such as Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Metabo is
eaten up by additional visits to the store to exchange/replace broken
cheap tools and in the extra capital purchase costs of the cheaper tools
over time.

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered and
not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made for the
job.
I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be as easy to use as a
new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should, times
change, safety systems change, materials change buying one built to last
may mean throwing a tool away that could last another 20 years if you
didn't want some better features.

My first drill, a two gear B&D, lasted 14 years. When I replaced it the new
drill was larger and cheaper and the difference was night and day.

Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Jeff wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:55:07 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Ryobi drills
They are a mediochre brand manufactured by Tecthtronics
International, a Chinese company. Ryobi is better than their
Power Devil and AEG brands but not as good as Milwaukee which they
also make.
Must be a bit of crossover in products now as we ordered a Milwaukee
core drill but it arrived as an AEG (Identical unit).
I have looked at and handled Ryobi drills. They do not feel
solid and precise and the mechanisms seem quite clunky.

Makita or Bosch would be much better choices in terms of build
quality and usability.
Makita yes and Blue Bosch definately.

I still have a 7.2v Makita drill, bought oh, must be 20 years ago
now (long slim battery that slid up inside the handle like a pistol
magazine) and it is still going strong and the original batteries
still give 1/2 an hour drilling (NiCd's). Very useful for tight
spaces.

Modern version is excellent.
http://www.toolstop.co.uk/?option=sh...FQU11AodC3tJHw


Damn you, Mr Medway!!! :-)

I had assumed that stocks would have been exhausted so gave it up as
"missed that". But no, you have to post that link and make me spend
more money.

Look into my eyes, not around my eyes - you know you want one.........


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
snip

Look into my eyes, not around my eyes - you know you want one.........


Yes - it was already ordered at 13:50 today (hopefully getting delivered
tomorrow).

I am hoping the price isn't just for the Makita badge...
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
snip

Look into my eyes, not around my eyes - you know you want
one.........
Yes - it was already ordered at 13:50 today (hopefully getting
delivered tomorrow).

I am hoping the price isn't just for the Makita badge...

Amazing piece of kit matey - your'e just gonna lurve it!

Let us know what you think when you've had a play with it.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
Screwfix have a kit with a Ryobi 18v (one+) combo drill and an impact
driver with two batteries, charger and bag for £100.
Seems good value but are the tools Ok?

It has a three hour charger, the only down side. But you can buy a fast
charger for not that much at £20. Even at £120 that is still a great deal.
Check if the batteries are suitable. It is 18v the same voltage as the
ONE+ range so the batteries should be OK.


The batteries say one+ on them.
The instruction book says one hour charge but the first charge did take
about 3 hrs.
I doubt if I need a fast charger, another battery would probably be better
value.

Anyway the charger is a BC-1815s which appears to be the standard one hour
charger (that takes one and a half hours anyway).

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe4d29@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 08:38:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fda878@qaanaaq...

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made for the
job.
I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be as easy to use as a
new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should, times
change, safety systems change, materials change buying one built to last
may mean throwing a tool away that could last another 20 years if you
didn't want some better features.

This is a valid point and should also be taken into account. However, in
extremis it is not a reason to view tools as disposable items.



Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe4d29@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 08:38:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fda878@qaanaaq...

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made for the job.
I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be as easy to use as
a new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should, times
change, safety systems change, materials change buying one built to
last may mean throwing a tool away that could last another 20 years if
you didn't want some better features.

This is a valid point and should also be taken into account. However,
in extremis it is not a reason to view tools as disposable items.



Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort
and longevity.

On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe4d29@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 08:38:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fda878@qaanaaq...

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made for the job.
I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be as easy to use as
a new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should, times
change, safety systems change, materials change buying one built to
last may mean throwing a tool away that could last another 20 years if
you didn't want some better features.

This is a valid point and should also be taken into account. However,
in extremis it is not a reason to view tools as disposable items.



Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort
and longevity.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe8f17@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe4d29@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 08:38:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47fda878@qaanaaq...

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made for
the job.
I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be as easy to use as
a new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should, times
change, safety systems change, materials change buying one built to
last may mean throwing a tool away that could last another 20 years if
you didn't want some better features.

This is a valid point and should also be taken into account. However,
in extremis it is not a reason to view tools as disposable items.



Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort and
longevity.


The lada does the speed limit the same as the bmw
The lada lasts longer than the bmw.
Comfort depends on personal taste as much as anything.. I *hate* leather
seats for instance and would avoid buying a car with them.

On 2008-04-10 23:10:33 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe8f17@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:

Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort
and longevity.


The lada does the speed limit the same as the bmw
The lada lasts longer than the bmw.
Comfort depends on personal taste as much as anything.. I *hate*
leather seats for instance and would avoid buying a car with them.

That depends on whether you limit your scope to public roads in the UK.....

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe8f17@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe4d29@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 08:38:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47fda878@qaanaaq...

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be
considered and not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made
for the job.
I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be as easy to
use as a new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should,
times change, safety systems change, materials change buying one
built to last may mean throwing a tool away that could last
another 20 years if you didn't want some better features.

This is a valid point and should also be taken into account.
However, in extremis it is not a reason to view tools as disposable




Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve
that objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed,
comfort and longevity.


The lada does the speed limit the same as the bmw

lacks a degree of street cred, though

The lada lasts longer than the bmw.

Are you sure ?

Comfort depends on personal taste as much as anything..

If you like a spring up the arse, maybe

I *hate* leather seats for instance and would avoid buying a car with
them.

not my major consideration when buying wheels




--
geoff

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47fe4d29@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 08:38:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47fda878@qaanaaq...

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be
considered and not just the price on the ticket.

As should the cost of chucking it away when a better tool is made
for the job. I can see that a 40 year old BOSCH saw is going to be
as easy to use as a new one, maybe.
Just because a tool can last 40 years doesn't mean it should, times
change, safety systems change, materials change buying one built to
last may mean throwing a tool away that could last another 20
years if you didn't want some better features.

This is a valid point and should also be taken into account. However,
in extremis it is not a reason to view tools as disposable
items.

Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort
and longevity.

Although the Lada would be easier & cheaper to maintain.....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-09 19:28:49 +0100, "dennis@home"

Who said anything about going into business? There is a lot more
to a purchase than the initial outlay.

There's also your budget to consider, something you always seem to
forget - being a rich bloke I assume.

Actually not. One needs to take into account all of the factors
when considering a budget. That needs to include time taken when
doing work as well as time taken if items need to be serviced or
replaced. In other words it is the lifetime cost that matters, not
just the purchase price.

But those costs don't enter into the equation for DIY users.

Absolutely they do.

Absolutely they don't! A DIY guy buying, for example a cheap SDS is going
to increase his efficiency manyfold, but is unlikely to use the tool enough
for service & replacement to become an issue.


Diy enthusiasts don't cost out their time like tradesmen have to.

Certainly they do. Time is not free.

It is for most DIY people. The time is spent enjoying a hobby.

As to lifetime cost, thats relevant for trade users but not for DIY
users.

That's also not correct.

Of course it is! A mid range power tool will give a cost efficient lifetime
for a DIY user.

I remember reading that the first DIY electric drills from Black &
Decker and Stanley Bidges had a motor life of an hour. The theory
was that, for example, putting up a set of shelves would involve
drilling 24 holes, each taking maybe 10 seconds to drill, or 4 mins
out of a total motor life of 60 mins

For the average Barry Bucknell DIY guy that meant his drill would
last him 5 - 10 years.

That's really a put down of DIY that is not justified.

Not a put down at all. DIY use is light & occassional compared to trade
use. To return to the SDS/impact driver/biscuit joiner example they will be
used on average a dozen times a year, not every day.

SNIP


DIY time is 'free' in the mind of a DIY enthusiast.

No it isn't.

See above. The average DIY guy is enjoying a hobby. Thus the time spent
enjoying it is free.

A reasonably priced power tool that enables a DIY guy to do a job he
could not have done without it fufills a need. It may not be as
nice to use, be quite as accurate or last as long as a top brand,
but that doesn't matter.

Yes it does matter.

Step back for a moment and consider the motivations for DIY. There are
many, but I'll list a few:


a) To do work at a lower initial cash outlay than it would take to employ
professionals to do the jobs

Certainly my initial motivation. The cash outlay also applies to the
purchase of power tools of course. No saving if you spend more buying top
line power tools than the professional would charge.

b) To get the work done when professionals are not available either at all
or at suitable timescales or with other logistical factors

c) To achieve specific results that professionals may not be willing or
able to undertake - e.g. use of specific materials or techniques.

d) To achieve a better quality outcome than professionals are able or
willing to do.

True but hardly relevant to the discussion.

e) To be an alternative activity to the day job.

f) As a means to learn new skills

Exactly - its a hobby, thus time isn't the critical factor.

g) As part of something more specific - e.g. woodworking, furniture making
to give one example.

Top quality tools have their place in this example certainly.

This is quite a broad set of reasons and certainly goes beyond the simple
minded model of comparing the purchase of materials and tools vs.
employing a professional. Even for case (a), that is incorrect because
some material costs can be amortised over several jobs, and the cost of
tools certainly can, and even more so if they are of good quality with
long life expectancy.

That assumes you have the means to purchase the top quality tool in the
first place, many don't and the time taken to save for it would mean
projects would take forever.

BIG SNIP

My justification for buying it is based on customer service - I take
my boots off, my hop up rests on a dust sheet, I use a nice clean
drill with a nice clean cable, that doesn't look like a refugee from
a building site & doesnt leave a dirty mark on the carpet. Thats
worth £40 to me as I work regularly for a couple of up market
curtain desingers. Its a 'luxury' purchase.

A Bosch would have been better and would have been more impressive to the
designer's customers.

How 'better'? It wouldn't drill holes any faster in practice, given the
light use longevity isnt an issue. More impressive? That assumes non DIY
people are aware of power tool brand names - they aren't.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 2008-04-11 00:29:16 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-09 19:28:49 +0100, "dennis@home"

Who said anything about going into business? There is a lot more
to a purchase than the initial outlay.

There's also your budget to consider, something you always seem to
forget - being a rich bloke I assume.

Actually not. One needs to take into account all of the factors
when considering a budget. That needs to include time taken when
doing work as well as time taken if items need to be serviced or
replaced. In other words it is the lifetime cost that matters, not
just the purchase price.

But those costs don't enter into the equation for DIY users.

Absolutely they do.

Absolutely they don't!

Certainly they do. You are thinking on too narrow a basis.


A DIY guy buying, for example a cheap SDS is going
to increase his efficiency manyfold, but is unlikely to use the tool enough
for service & replacement to become an issue.

On the contrary. If something is of poor design, material and build
quality, it is more likely to suffer an early failure.




Diy enthusiasts don't cost out their time like tradesmen have to.

Certainly they do. Time is not free.

It is for most DIY people. The time is spent enjoying a hobby.

There are a wide variety of motivations, of which enjoying a hobby is
one possible one. In this case, time is also important because if
it is wasted returning and rebuying poor tools, it is not being spent
on enjoying the hobby. One doesn't see a line of happy faces waiting
in line at the returns desk at the DIY shed. The more likely
conversation is that want to know why this piece of junk that they
bought has fallen apart after little use and are unlikely to be happy
about that.





As to lifetime cost, thats relevant for trade users but not for DIY
users.

That's also not correct.

Of course it is! A mid range power tool will give a cost efficient lifetime
for a DIY user.

That would be ignoring all other aspects apart from money exiting
wallet. There are also the issues of outcome, time taken in
addressing failures and detraction from enjoyment.



For the average Barry Bucknell DIY guy that meant his drill would
last him 5 - 10 years.

That's really a put down of DIY that is not justified.

Not a put down at all. DIY use is light & occassional compared to trade
use.

For some people it is and for others it is not.



To return to the SDS/impact driver/biscuit joiner example they will be
used on average a dozen times a year, not every day.

That depends on the user. I certainly use a biscuit joiner more
than a dozen times a year.



SNIP


DIY time is 'free' in the mind of a DIY enthusiast.

No it isn't.

See above. The average DIY guy is enjoying a hobby. Thus the time spent
enjoying it is free.

One particular motivation for DIY is as a hobby. There are numerous
others, as I indicated. Even in the case of hobbies, time is not
free. One of the whole points of a hobby is to maximise time spent
on it. Going yet again to the DIY store to replace a broken or
unsuitable product is hardly adding to tim spent on the hobby or
enjoying it. In fat it's a waste of time for all concerned, including
the retailer.



a) To do work at a lower initial cash outlay than it would take to employ
professionals to do the jobs

Certainly my initial motivation. The cash outlay also applies to the
purchase of power tools of course. No saving if you spend more buying top
line power tools than the professional would charge.

Which is why it should be looked at over a period of time and not
simply on a one job basis.




b) To get the work done when professionals are not available either at all
or at suitable timescales or with other logistical factors

c) To achieve specific results that professionals may not be willing or
able to undertake - e.g. use of specific materials or techniques.

d) To achieve a better quality outcome than professionals are able or
willing to do.

True but hardly relevant to the discussion.

Very relevant to this discussion. Too often I have seen the work of
so-called professionals, even highly recommended ones, being
substandard because they are not willing or able to complete the finish
to a high standard. Then one gets into the "well it's good enough
for everybody else" discussion. My response to that one is that they
quoted for a 100% job, not a 70% one. In the end, it isn't worth the
pain of getting people to come back and do the remaining 30% that they
perceive as 5% and "good enough". So the old maxim of "if you want a
job done properly, do it yourself" certainly applies.



e) To be an alternative activity to the day job.

f) As a means to learn new skills

Exactly - its a hobby, thus time isn't the critical factor.

Time, in relation to a hobby is certainly a critical factor. DIY
supermarkets have succeeded to the extent that they have to a large
extent because to a large extent everything can be purchased under one
roof. Even with these, large amounts of time can be taken simply
sourcing materials and tools for a project. Time wasted on returning
and replacing defective products is a huge factor - easily half a day
can go on such an exercise depending on distance from store. That's
time that could have gone on completing a job properly and having the
satisfaction from doing so.




g) As part of something more specific - e.g. woodworking, furniture making
to give one example.

Top quality tools have their place in this example certainly.

They do, and certainly it falls within the realms of DIY.



This is quite a broad set of reasons and certainly goes beyond the simple
minded model of comparing the purchase of materials and tools vs.
employing a professional. Even for case (a), that is incorrect because
some material costs can be amortised over several jobs, and the cost of
tools certainly can, and even more so if they are of good quality with
long life expectancy.

That assumes you have the means to purchase the top quality tool in the
first place, many don't and the time taken to save for it would mean
projects would take forever.

That's a separate discussion. Ability to pay is a factor in any
purchase decision, but is not the same as cost justification. For
example, one might choose to have an extension built and to pay a
builder to do the ground works and shell, with the home owner
completing the interior works on the basis of a cost saving and
improved finish or because of the enjoyment in so doing. The
project funding itself might come directly out of pocket or via other
means such as an addition to the mortgage. The motivations for
building an extension are well known, so don't need to be repeated in
detail, but one is of an improvement in property value or saleability
over a period of time. I'll immediately add that taken in isolation,
it would make little sense to pay for a drill, with interest over a 20
year period - it's a depreciating asset. However if one considers
the context of a major project followed by others and smaller jobs in
between, then lifetime cost of ownership can be considered as well.
Then the equation becomes one of do I buy some cheap thing and
practically and financially write it off over the course of the initial
project, or do I take a longer term view and consider the outlay to be
spread over a longer period of time? To look at it a different way,
purchase of a £150 drill vs. a £50 one is practically irrelevant in the
context of a £30k house extension - the discussion is about £100 in
cash terms. If the results are a) better outcome, b) better
amortisation of depreciating asset over time and c) less time wasted on
sourcing replacements, then the arguments for purchasing a good quality
tool are simple and compelling.





BIG SNIP

My justification for buying it is based on customer service - I take
my boots off, my hop up rests on a dust sheet, I use a nice clean
drill with a nice clean cable, that doesn't look like a refugee from
a building site & doesnt leave a dirty mark on the carpet. Thats
worth £40 to me as I work regularly for a couple of up market
curtain desingers. Its a 'luxury' purchase.

A Bosch would have been better and would have been more impressive to the
designer's customers.

How 'better'? It wouldn't drill holes any faster in practice, given the
light use longevity isnt an issue. More impressive? That assumes non DIY
people are aware of power tool brand names - they aren't.

I would have thought that your curtain lady and her customers would
have heard of Bosch - there's a reasonable chance that they will have
seen their domestic appliances and will have realised that they are of
moderately good quality and reputation. Since you made the point
about this being a customer service issue, and not wanting to show up
at a customer in a rusty pile of junk that should have been at the
breakers years ago and having your arse hanging out of the back of your
jeans, you've obviously understood that visual impression and looking
professional is important.

Hence, considering that objective, and the context of Bosch being a
well known name, it could easily be worth the extra £50 over a period
of time to be using one of those for these jobs rather than something
that looks like it was made by Mattel or used by Flash Gordon.

On 2008-04-11 00:05:36 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-10 22:47:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:

Why not? Its the reason I view cars as being disposable.

Ultimately they are, like all things. The question is how soon.

I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort
and longevity.

Although the Lada would be easier & cheaper to maintain.....

Possibly true. Try doing mantenance on a generic, private label
power tool, however.

It never ceases to amaze me how often I see people in places like B&Q
with a broken something or other that's conveniently just outside
warranty and asking where they can find the parts for it. Of course
its as possible for the cheap generic tool manufacturers to supply
spare parts as it is for Lada to do so. The point is that they
choose not to, and for some reason many people seem to have a
disconnect in their brain about paying a low price yet still expecting
proper service.

In article 47fefb16@qaanaaq, Andy Hall wrote:


I would have thought that your curtain lady and her customers would
have heard of Bosch - there's a reasonable chance that they will have
seen their domestic appliances and will have realised that they are of
moderately good quality and reputation. Since you made the point
about this being a customer service issue, and not wanting to show up
at a customer in a rusty pile of junk that should have been at the
breakers years ago and having your arse hanging out of the back of your
jeans, you've obviously understood that visual impression and looking
professional is important.

Hence, considering that objective, and the context of Bosch being a
well known name, it could easily be worth the extra £50 over a period
of time to be using one of those for these jobs rather than something
that looks like it was made by Mattel or used by Flash Gordon.



So it would be better if Dave turned up at the curtain lady's with an
inferior (according to you) Bosch than a superior (according to you)
Makita or Festool, because the Curtain Lady's heard of Bosch? It's all
about bling, is it?

And what if the Curtain Lady's read Andy Hall's Big Book of Economics
(Reading age 4- 7) and remembers the chapter on Lidl... "They should
stick to selling cauliflowers"? She'll turn to Dave and say, "Bosch...
they should stick to selling washing machines."

Andy Hall wrote:
SNIP

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

I've had this discussion with many so called sales directors in the past.
The sort that move from one industry to the next on the basis that no
experience or knowledge is required, just positive thought.

Quality, service & price are all factors in a buying decision. The 'think
positive' sales director types always claim that price is the least
important factor, wheras the guys on the street know the first question from
the punter is likely to be 'how much'.

High price can be justified by high quality & better value of course.

Funny how that argument changed when I asked when my Mondeo would be
replaced by a Mercedes........ suddenly price became the most important
factor.

Good enough is good enough to many.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 2008-04-11 08:27:25 +0100, mike said:

In article 47fefb16@qaanaaq, Andy Hall wrote:


I would have thought that your curtain lady and her customers would
have heard of Bosch - there's a reasonable chance that they will have
seen their domestic appliances and will have realised that they are of
moderately good quality and reputation. Since you made the point
about this being a customer service issue, and not wanting to show up
at a customer in a rusty pile of junk that should have been at the
breakers years ago and having your arse hanging out of the back of your
jeans, you've obviously understood that visual impression and looking
professional is important.

Hence, considering that objective, and the context of Bosch being a
well known name, it could easily be worth the extra £50 over a period
of time to be using one of those for these jobs rather than something
that looks like it was made by Mattel or used by Flash Gordon.



So it would be better if Dave turned up at the curtain lady's with an
inferior (according to you) Bosch than a superior (according to you)
Makita or Festool, because the Curtain Lady's heard of Bosch? It's all
about bling, is it?

I've no idea whether Dave is a medallion man or not.

If appearance and impression to a specific target audience is that
important to him then yes, choice of product is important. He has
already said that it is worth £40 and that he doesn't want to show up
with something that looks like a refugee from a building site. Why
would he want to show up with something that looks like it was
purchased in Toys R Us?

If appearance to a different target audience is important, then one of
the other brands may be suitable.

In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid
product range. This does not mean that I would say that Makita, at
around the same price point doesn't also make a good product, or for
that matter, DeWalt.

If the crtierion were a consistent range of good quality cordless
drills then Makita is the obvious choice.

Festool would have been irrelevant since they do not make SDS drills.

OTOH, if he were doing kitchen fitting, he would find that a Festool
C12 would score on all aspects of non masonry work.


One has to look at purpose and applications and then which
manufacturers have the best products of the tool type.

This is why it's important to research carefully and from muliple
sources looking at track record as well.





And what if the Curtain Lady's read Andy Hall's Big Book of Economics
(Reading age 4- 7) and remembers the chapter on Lidl... "They should
stick to selling cauliflowers"? She'll turn to Dave and say, "Bosch...
they should stick to selling washing machines."




She may do, although both washing machines and power tools are
considered to be electrical goods and Bosch is well known to be a
multinational electrical products manufacturer.

I am sure that Dave's customers are sufficiently intelligent and
discerning to be able to understand the difference between that and a
grotty supermarket warehouse selling cheap tat next to cauliflowers.

On 2008-04-11 08:46:54 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



Andy Hall wrote:
SNIP

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

I've had this discussion with many so called sales directors in the past.
The sort that move from one industry to the next on the basis that no
experience or knowledge is required, just positive thought.

Yes, so have I. It fails, and ultimately fails them.


Quality, service & price are all factors in a buying decision. The 'think
positive' sales director types always claim that price is the least
important factor, wheras the guys on the street know the first question from
the punter is likely to be 'how much'.

This depends on the market, the product/service and its positioning.
Some products and services are price sensitive, others are not. Some
customers are more price sensitive and others are not.

It's why we have some products targeted to customers who are primarily
price sensitive and others for customers who consider that quality and
service are important, have a value and are willing to pay for that.

However, don't make the assumption that people who buy on price are not
also looking for good service. They may well be. The problem is that
there is not usually enough margin to pay for it, or the customer is
unwilling to pay the extra for service.

Equally, don't make the assumption that customers who are looking for
good quality and service are soft targets for price. However, they
are more likely to appreciate that there is a cost involved in
providing good service and are willing to pay for that.


High price can be justified by high quality & better value of course.

Of course.


Funny how that argument changed when I asked when my Mondeo would be
replaced by a Mercedes........ suddenly price became the most important
factor.

Ah well.



Good enough is good enough to many.

Good enough, is good enough to some. One can always strive to improve.

On 2008-04-11 08:46:54 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



Andy Hall wrote:
SNIP

This is why the lifetime cost and profile of use should be considered
and not just the price on the ticket.

I've had this discussion with many so called sales directors in the past.
The sort that move from one industry to the next on the basis that no
experience or knowledge is required, just positive thought.

Yes, so have I. It fails, and ultimately fails them.


Quality, service & price are all factors in a buying decision. The 'think
positive' sales director types always claim that price is the least
important factor, wheras the guys on the street know the first question from
the punter is likely to be 'how much'.

This depends on the market, the product/service and its positioning.
Some products and services are price sensitive, others are not. Some
customers are more price sensitive and others are not.

It's why we have some products targeted to customers who are primarily
price sensitive and others for customers who consider that quality and
service are important, have a value and are willing to pay for that.

However, don't make the assumption that people who buy on price are not
also looking for good service. They may well be. The problem is that
there is not usually enough margin to pay for it, or the customer is
unwilling to pay the extra for service.

Equally, don't make the assumption that customers who are looking for
good quality and service are soft targets for price. However, they
are more likely to appreciate that there is a cost involved in
providing good service and are willing to pay for that.


High price can be justified by high quality & better value of course.

Of course.


Funny how that argument changed when I asked when my Mondeo would be
replaced by a Mercedes........ suddenly price became the most important
factor.

Ah well.



Good enough is good enough to many.

Good enough, is good enough to some. One can always strive to improve.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ff1f23@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 08:46:54 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"


Good enough is good enough to many.

Good enough, is good enough to some. One can always strive to improve.



Being better than good enough shows that the quality control system is
broken.
Who wants to buy from a company with a broken quality control system?

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
snip
Look into my eyes, not around my eyes - you know you want
one.........
Yes - it was already ordered at 13:50 today (hopefully getting
delivered tomorrow).

I am hoping the price isn't just for the Makita badge...

Amazing piece of kit matey - your'e just gonna lurve it!

Let us know what you think when you've had a play with it.


Good points:

It arrived.
It arrived within 2 minutes of another parcel which was for partner
(keeps the score even :-) ).
Soft case is in (almost) partner's favourite colour.
It charges up quickly.
It screwed a big screw into a damp, tough fence post until the head was
flush with the surface. No pilot hole. Quite amazing.

Bad points:

It looks like a toy!!!
Now I shall have to put up that fence.... :-)

Until very recently I had been making do with a single cordless drill
(decent Bosch). But I got sick of bit changing and so had also been
using partner's Bosch Ixo 3.6 V mini-driver. This was a godsend for its
compactness (needed to get into places no other driver would fit). But,
despite being quite useful, it is rather wimpy.

Hence, when you posted about the Makita I was already eager to get
something to help. I have tried a Metabo mini driver which wasn't bad
but was expensive. I did not expect something as powerful as this.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
snip
Look into my eyes, not around my eyes - you know you want
one.........
Yes - it was already ordered at 13:50 today (hopefully getting
delivered tomorrow).

I am hoping the price isn't just for the Makita badge...

Amazing piece of kit matey - your'e just gonna lurve it!

Let us know what you think when you've had a play with it.


Good points:

It arrived.
It arrived within 2 minutes of another parcel which was for partner (keeps
the score even :-) ).
Soft case is in (almost) partner's favourite colour.
It charges up quickly.
It screwed a big screw into a damp, tough fence post until the head was
flush with the surface. No pilot hole. Quite amazing.

Bad points:

It looks like a toy!!!
Now I shall have to put up that fence.... :-)

Until very recently I had been making do with a single cordless drill
(decent Bosch). But I got sick of bit changing and so had also been using
partner's Bosch Ixo 3.6 V mini-driver. This was a godsend for its
compactness (needed to get into places no other driver would fit). But,
despite being quite useful, it is rather wimpy.

Hence, when you posted about the Makita I was already eager to get
something to help. I have tried a Metabo mini driver which wasn't bad but
was expensive. I did not expect something as powerful as this.

It is an Impact Driver rather than just a driver. As you found out, it can
drill in serious screws.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because they
invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid product
range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better. Also HIti
are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti. Their
drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill 6.5mm masonry
holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill. Above 6.5mm SDS is
better. That is why they are the choice of real professionals. One drill
driver will give most of what many journeymen will want all in one drill.

Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
snip
Look into my eyes, not around my eyes - you know you want
one.........
Yes - it was already ordered at 13:50 today (hopefully getting
delivered tomorrow).

I am hoping the price isn't just for the Makita badge...

Amazing piece of kit matey - your'e just gonna lurve it!

Let us know what you think when you've had a play with it.


Good points:

It arrived.
It arrived within 2 minutes of another parcel which was for partner
(keeps the score even :-) ).

Luck or planning? Good ploy though - I shall remember that one.

Soft case is in (almost) partner's favourite colour.

Oh good :-) Actually a very useful case though.

It charges up quickly.
It screwed a big screw into a damp, tough fence post until the head
was flush with the surface. No pilot hole. Quite amazing.

Indeed it is. The clutch mean you can screw flatpack together without
destroying the chipboard.

Bad points:

It looks like a toy!!!

Doesn't work like one though.

Now I shall have to put up that fence.... :-)

Always a downside..........

Until very recently I had been making do with a single cordless drill
(decent Bosch). But I got sick of bit changing and so had also been
using partner's Bosch Ixo 3.6 V mini-driver. This was a godsend for
its compactness (needed to get into places no other driver would
fit). But, despite being quite useful, it is rather wimpy.

Hence, when you posted about the Makita I was already eager to get
something to help. I have tried a Metabo mini driver which wasn't bad
but was expensive. I did not expect something as powerful as this.

Neither did I till I got one!



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 2008-04-11 14:50:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid
product range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better

Than Ryobi? Possibly.

. Also HIti are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti.
Their drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill
6.5mm masonry holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill.
Above 6.5mm SDS is better. That is why they are the choice of real
professionals. One drill driver will give most of what many journeymen
will want all in one drill.

Same price points?

On 2008-04-11 13:43:31 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ff1f23@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 08:46:54 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"


Good enough is good enough to many.

Good enough, is good enough to some. One can always strive to improve.



Being better than good enough shows that the quality control system is broken.
Who wants to buy from a company with a broken quality control system?

Quality control is essentially defining what you are going to do, doing
it and measuring that you are doing it.

There is nothing inherent in quality control that says that you can't
make improvements or for that matter downgrade.

The "good enough" discussion is whether the customer will accept the
product offering as being acceptable for his purposes or not and that
varies by customer. It is the job of product managers to
determine which set of customer requirements they wish to address and
then to agree with engineering and manufacturing on how to achieve that
and whether it's possible at the desired price, cost and margin levels.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffaa0c@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 14:50:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid
product range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better

Than Ryobi? Possibly.

Matt, better than a Ryobi and a Makita and a DeWalt.

. Also HIti are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti.
Their drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill 6.5mm
masonry holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill. Above 6.5mm
SDS is better. That is why they are the choice of real professionals.
One drill driver will give most of what many journeymen will want all in
one drill.

Same price points?

Matt, stop babbling.

On 2008-04-11 19:20:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffaa0c@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 14:50:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid
product range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better

Than Ryobi? Possibly.

Matt, better than a Ryobi and a Makita and a DeWalt.

I don't think so.....


. Also HIti are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti.
Their drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill
6.5mm masonry holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill.
Above 6.5mm SDS is better. That is why they are the choice of real
professionals. One drill driver will give most of what many journeymen
will want all in one drill.

Same price points?

Matt, stop babbling.

Product name, spec. source and price, please.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffac94@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 19:20:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffaa0c@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 14:50:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid
product range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better

Than Ryobi? Possibly.

Matt, better than a Ryobi and a Makita and a DeWalt.

I don't think so.....

Matt, you must stop thinking as it is no god for you....I don't think - I
know.

. Also HIti are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti.
Their drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill
6.5mm masonry holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill.
Above 6.5mm SDS is better. That is why they are the choice of real
professionals. One drill driver will give most of what many journeymen
will want all in one drill.

Same price points?

Matt, stop babbling.

Product name, spec. source and price, please.

hilti te6a and a hilti te7a. They are fully professional tools like the
Kress high torque drill/driver with angle attachment. They are not PP Pro
lookalikes, like Makita.

Ebay is full of them.

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
I could buy a Lada or a BMW to go from A to B. Both achieve that
objective, but they don't do it with the same degree of speed, comfort
and longevity.

Although the Lada would be easier & cheaper to maintain.....

I'm not so sure. BMWs are very easy to maintain. As opposed to repair -
which may of course not be necessary on either. For example the oil filter
is mounted on the top of the engine and extremely simple to change.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffac94@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 19:20:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47ffaa0c@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 14:50:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and
solid product range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better

Than Ryobi? Possibly.

Matt, better than a Ryobi and a Makita and a DeWalt.

I don't think so.....

Matt, you must stop thinking as it is no god for you....I don't think - I
know.

. Also HIti are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti.
Their drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill
6.5mm masonry holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill.
Above 6.5mm SDS is better. That is why they are the choice of real
professionals. One drill driver will give most of what many journeymen
will want all in one drill.

Same price points?

Matt, stop babbling.

Product name, spec. source and price, please.

hilti te6a and a hilti te7a. They are fully professional tools like the
Kress high torque drill/driver with angle attachment. They are not PP Pro
lookalikes, like Makita.

Ebay is full of them.

The te6a & te7a are 36v. This is the one, the SFH 151-A:
http://www.hilti.co.uk/holuk/modules...jsp?OID=-30555

One on Ebay for £325 "USED"!!!

Makita are medium trade at most. Hilti is the real McCoy when it comes to
on site industrial power tank like tools. Festool for high precision
workshop tools. A festool can't cope with what a Hilti can take on site.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffac94@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 19:20:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ffaa0c@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 14:50:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47ff1d21@qaanaaq...


In SDS drills, I would rate Bosch more hghly than the others because
they invented th technology and have consistently had a good and solid
product range.

They invented so must be better. Duh! The Wickes/Kress is better

Than Ryobi? Possibly.

Matt, better than a Ryobi and a Makita and a DeWalt.

I don't think so.....


. Also HIti are superior all the way. Real industrial men use Hilti.
Their drill/drivers are superb. A main Makita 110v SDS cannot drill
6.5mm masonry holes as fast as a Hilti 15.6v battery hammer drill.
Above 6.5mm SDS is better. That is why they are the choice of real
professionals. One drill driver will give most of what many journeymen
will want all in one drill.

Same price points?

Matt, stop babbling.

Product name, spec. source and price, please.

The Hilti te72 SDS. Knocks cobs off Makita, DeWalt and the other pro
wanabees. It drills faster and outlasts them by 4 times as long or more.
They can go all day and every day for 8 hours and still lasts and lasts.
They are not cheap though. One guy on site with Hilti power tools said to
me DeWalt was DIY
stuff. He is not far off. Makita and DeWalt are only just above PP Pro,
or whatever B&Q call them now (McAlister I think), when comparing to Hilti
in build quality and performance.

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:31:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

I don't think - I know.

I don't think you know either.

Derek

"Derek" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:31:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

I don't think - I know.

I don't think you know either.

I always know.

On 2008-04-11 20:31:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Matt, you must stop thinking as it is no god for you.

It certainly isn't a god for you, is it?


...I don't think - I know.

Sounds like you are promoting a new religion now. Are you going to
hand out tracts with pictures of hacksaws?


Product name, spec. source and price, please.

hilti te6a and a hilti te7a. They are fully professional tools like
the Kress high torque drill/driver with angle attachment. They are not
PP Pro lookalikes, like Makita.

Ebay is full of them.

Mainly imported from the U.S. However the models that you mention
are 36v large machines which is not even in the same tool type category
as Wickes assortment of private label offerings.

On 2008-04-11 20:59:39 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Makita are medium trade at most. Hilti is the real McCoy when it comes
to on site industrial power tank like tools.

Hilti actually offers quite a broad range of tools in the U.S., some
good and some questionable. They haven't differentiated tools at
different levels which is unwise.

Nonetheless, they do have some moderately good heavy duty products such
as the 36v products.


Festool for high precision workshop tools.

That's a reasonable statement, but they are also suitable for specific
site applications. For example, the C12 is a popular kitchen fitter's
product because of th various angle and offset options.


A festool can't cope with what a Hilti can take on site.

The applications are different.

One would not use the 36v large range for site cabinet work any more
that one would use a precision product for concrete breaking.

Well you might I suppose. You do have a bit of a... um... track record
in that regard

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fff26d@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 20:59:39 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Makita are medium trade at most. Hilti is the real McCoy when it comes
to on site industrial power tank like tools.

Hilti actually offers quite a broad range of tools in the U.S., some good
and some questionable. They haven't differentiated tools at different
levels which is unwise.

Questionable? Matt, you had never heard of them until I told you. They
were pretty well a one trick pony at one time with the Hilti explosive
charge gun. They were into fixings - the guns and staples. I used it
countless time. Very expensive but great and even drove nails into concrete.
They saved so much time a job could be done in less than half the time.
They had a heavy duty power drill but I never came across it. About 1990
they started on power tools seriously and kept to the same quality as the
Hilti gun.

Nonetheless, they do have some moderately good heavy duty products such as
the 36v products.

Matt, you haven't a clue!

The ultimate combi drill is the Hilti SFH 151-A. Not surprising that you
have never heard of it and prattle about just above DIY Makita as it is the
ultimate - ignorance is bliss to you.

snip Mattness

On 2008-04-12 00:55:50 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fff26d@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-11 20:59:39 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Makita are medium trade at most. Hilti is the real McCoy when it comes
to on site industrial power tank like tools.

Hilti actually offers quite a broad range of tools in the U.S., some
good and some questionable. They haven't differentiated tools at
different levels which is unwise.

Questionable? Matt, you had never heard of them until I told you.

Don't be silly. Home Depot has a large selection of Hilti product and
not all of it is of high quality. Take a look at HD's web site,

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fe4cd6@qaanaaq...
On 2008-04-10 14:19:09 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47fd02fb@qaanaaq...

Makita or Bosch would be much better choices in terms of build quality
and usability.

Why this obsession that only Makita a quality product, when others are
better, like Hilti, Hitachi, Festool or Durofix.

What obsession? Makita has and has had for many years a good range of
drill products. Some of their sanders are OK as well, although Metabo
makes a better random orbit sander. Festool makes a better drill than
Makita in terms of the C12 product but does not have as comprehensive a
drill range as Makita.

Hitachi makes a better circular saw than Makita (has a cast base), but
Festool has a better one.

There is no one brand that is universally better than another within the
same quality level. One has to pick carefully according to product
type.

The other side of the coin as far as cordless single battery systems like
One+ is concerned is that it is also a lock in. Customers are much
more likely to buy other tools in the range because they already have the
batteries. This may mean that they will end up with something very poor
in some categories.


http://www.conceptdistribution.co.uk...s_Magazine.pdf
http://www.conceptdistribution.co.uk/index_main.html

The Durofix Impact Driver and combined Collated Driver is superb.

Do you have one, or is that simply what it says on the distributor's web
site.?

I saw one on site a few months ago and asked the guy about it as I had
never seen the brand before. Initially I thought it was a DIY cheapo
collating gun (there is no cheapo collating gun), but the look and feel is
quality. It wasn't cheap, but that Impact Driver with the collating
attachment is very cheap when you price up two separate quality units.
The Impact Driver has far more blows than others of the same type. The
batteries are Sanyo. I don't know where it is made.

I don't know what the price of the Impact Driver and collating attachment
is. But it is probably worth it in the end if you require the two tools.

The guy who owned it, said the two speed is unique with a spin speed of
1240rpm not 500rpm as most are. It also has a 10mm chuck and is suitable
for drill bits not just hex shaft screwdriver bits or hex bits. So it is a
normal drill too. The batteries charge in 15 mins. So a drill/Impact Driver
and collating gun all in one. I still don't know the price.