On 2008-04-11 00:29:16 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-09 19:28:49 +0100, "dennis@home"

Who said anything about going into business? There is a lot more
to a purchase than the initial outlay.

There's also your budget to consider, something you always seem to
forget - being a rich bloke I assume.

Actually not. One needs to take into account all of the factors
when considering a budget. That needs to include time taken when
doing work as well as time taken if items need to be serviced or
replaced. In other words it is the lifetime cost that matters, not
just the purchase price.

But those costs don't enter into the equation for DIY users.

Absolutely they do.

Absolutely they don't!

Certainly they do. You are thinking on too narrow a basis.


A DIY guy buying, for example a cheap SDS is going
to increase his efficiency manyfold, but is unlikely to use the tool enough
for service & replacement to become an issue.

On the contrary. If something is of poor design, material and build
quality, it is more likely to suffer an early failure.




Diy enthusiasts don't cost out their time like tradesmen have to.

Certainly they do. Time is not free.

It is for most DIY people. The time is spent enjoying a hobby.

There are a wide variety of motivations, of which enjoying a hobby is
one possible one. In this case, time is also important because if
it is wasted returning and rebuying poor tools, it is not being spent
on enjoying the hobby. One doesn't see a line of happy faces waiting
in line at the returns desk at the DIY shed. The more likely
conversation is that want to know why this piece of junk that they
bought has fallen apart after little use and are unlikely to be happy
about that.





As to lifetime cost, thats relevant for trade users but not for DIY
users.

That's also not correct.

Of course it is! A mid range power tool will give a cost efficient lifetime
for a DIY user.

That would be ignoring all other aspects apart from money exiting
wallet. There are also the issues of outcome, time taken in
addressing failures and detraction from enjoyment.



For the average Barry Bucknell DIY guy that meant his drill would
last him 5 - 10 years.

That's really a put down of DIY that is not justified.

Not a put down at all. DIY use is light & occassional compared to trade
use.

For some people it is and for others it is not.



To return to the SDS/impact driver/biscuit joiner example they will be
used on average a dozen times a year, not every day.

That depends on the user. I certainly use a biscuit joiner more
than a dozen times a year.



SNIP


DIY time is 'free' in the mind of a DIY enthusiast.

No it isn't.

See above. The average DIY guy is enjoying a hobby. Thus the time spent
enjoying it is free.

One particular motivation for DIY is as a hobby. There are numerous
others, as I indicated. Even in the case of hobbies, time is not
free. One of the whole points of a hobby is to maximise time spent
on it. Going yet again to the DIY store to replace a broken or
unsuitable product is hardly adding to tim spent on the hobby or
enjoying it. In fat it's a waste of time for all concerned, including
the retailer.



a) To do work at a lower initial cash outlay than it would take to employ
professionals to do the jobs

Certainly my initial motivation. The cash outlay also applies to the
purchase of power tools of course. No saving if you spend more buying top
line power tools than the professional would charge.

Which is why it should be looked at over a period of time and not
simply on a one job basis.




b) To get the work done when professionals are not available either at all
or at suitable timescales or with other logistical factors

c) To achieve specific results that professionals may not be willing or
able to undertake - e.g. use of specific materials or techniques.

d) To achieve a better quality outcome than professionals are able or
willing to do.

True but hardly relevant to the discussion.

Very relevant to this discussion. Too often I have seen the work of
so-called professionals, even highly recommended ones, being
substandard because they are not willing or able to complete the finish
to a high standard. Then one gets into the "well it's good enough
for everybody else" discussion. My response to that one is that they
quoted for a 100% job, not a 70% one. In the end, it isn't worth the
pain of getting people to come back and do the remaining 30% that they
perceive as 5% and "good enough". So the old maxim of "if you want a
job done properly, do it yourself" certainly applies.



e) To be an alternative activity to the day job.

f) As a means to learn new skills

Exactly - its a hobby, thus time isn't the critical factor.

Time, in relation to a hobby is certainly a critical factor. DIY
supermarkets have succeeded to the extent that they have to a large
extent because to a large extent everything can be purchased under one
roof. Even with these, large amounts of time can be taken simply
sourcing materials and tools for a project. Time wasted on returning
and replacing defective products is a huge factor - easily half a day
can go on such an exercise depending on distance from store. That's
time that could have gone on completing a job properly and having the
satisfaction from doing so.




g) As part of something more specific - e.g. woodworking, furniture making
to give one example.

Top quality tools have their place in this example certainly.

They do, and certainly it falls within the realms of DIY.



This is quite a broad set of reasons and certainly goes beyond the simple
minded model of comparing the purchase of materials and tools vs.
employing a professional. Even for case (a), that is incorrect because
some material costs can be amortised over several jobs, and the cost of
tools certainly can, and even more so if they are of good quality with
long life expectancy.

That assumes you have the means to purchase the top quality tool in the
first place, many don't and the time taken to save for it would mean
projects would take forever.

That's a separate discussion. Ability to pay is a factor in any
purchase decision, but is not the same as cost justification. For
example, one might choose to have an extension built and to pay a
builder to do the ground works and shell, with the home owner
completing the interior works on the basis of a cost saving and
improved finish or because of the enjoyment in so doing. The
project funding itself might come directly out of pocket or via other
means such as an addition to the mortgage. The motivations for
building an extension are well known, so don't need to be repeated in
detail, but one is of an improvement in property value or saleability
over a period of time. I'll immediately add that taken in isolation,
it would make little sense to pay for a drill, with interest over a 20
year period - it's a depreciating asset. However if one considers
the context of a major project followed by others and smaller jobs in
between, then lifetime cost of ownership can be considered as well.
Then the equation becomes one of do I buy some cheap thing and
practically and financially write it off over the course of the initial
project, or do I take a longer term view and consider the outlay to be
spread over a longer period of time? To look at it a different way,
purchase of a £150 drill vs. a £50 one is practically irrelevant in the
context of a £30k house extension - the discussion is about £100 in
cash terms. If the results are a) better outcome, b) better
amortisation of depreciating asset over time and c) less time wasted on
sourcing replacements, then the arguments for purchasing a good quality
tool are simple and compelling.





BIG SNIP

My justification for buying it is based on customer service - I take
my boots off, my hop up rests on a dust sheet, I use a nice clean
drill with a nice clean cable, that doesn't look like a refugee from
a building site & doesnt leave a dirty mark on the carpet. Thats
worth £40 to me as I work regularly for a couple of up market
curtain desingers. Its a 'luxury' purchase.

A Bosch would have been better and would have been more impressive to the
designer's customers.

How 'better'? It wouldn't drill holes any faster in practice, given the
light use longevity isnt an issue. More impressive? That assumes non DIY
people are aware of power tool brand names - they aren't.

I would have thought that your curtain lady and her customers would
have heard of Bosch - there's a reasonable chance that they will have
seen their domestic appliances and will have realised that they are of
moderately good quality and reputation. Since you made the point
about this being a customer service issue, and not wanting to show up
at a customer in a rusty pile of junk that should have been at the
breakers years ago and having your arse hanging out of the back of your
jeans, you've obviously understood that visual impression and looking
professional is important.

Hence, considering that objective, and the context of Bosch being a
well known name, it could easily be worth the extra £50 over a period
of time to be using one of those for these jobs rather than something
that looks like it was made by Mattel or used by Flash Gordon.