There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap. I have had
this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Chair, Bradford Curry Project
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/bradfordcurryproject

In article ,
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is
not stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.

Not many here live in a semi commercial kitchen. ;-)

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap. I have had
this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.


This is a pointless survey because

1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
compare it with.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:57:38 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

| On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
| wrote:
|
| There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
| supplies from combi boilers.
|
| There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
| answer the question
| "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
| storage".
|
| I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
| kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
| there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
| stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap. I have had
| this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.
|
|
| This is a pointless survey because
|
| 1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

That is a downright daft comment.
Many will have domestic installations, I only included it because for most
hot water systems in the UK it is a * Very Bad Idea* to drink from the Hot
water tap. I happen to know that Combis are different.

| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
| compare it with.

Thy will know if they have problems

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

In article ,
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| This is a pointless survey because
|
| 1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

That is a downright daft comment. Many will have domestic
installations, I only included it because for most hot water systems in
the UK it is a * Very Bad Idea* to drink from the Hot water tap. I
happen to know that Combis are different.

I've managed perfectly well for many years by boiling cold water to make a
hot drink. Or boiling water in a pan for cooking, etc.

And for a commercial kitchen most would have some form of 'still' to
provide continuous boiling water.

| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
| compare it with.

Thy will know if they have problems

Plenty will only have experienced a storage system with poor head so
problems with showers, or a 'normal' size combi with problems when filling
a bath. And many seem happy with an electric shower which gives inferior
performance to even the worst combi.

So unless you've experienced a decent storage system which can do
everything required of a hot water system - or had experience of a high
flow combi - the survey is rather meaningless.

--
*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:05:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:57:38 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

| On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
| wrote:
|
| There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
| supplies from combi boilers.
|
| There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
| answer the question
| "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
| storage".
|
| I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
| kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
| there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
| stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap. I have had
| this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.
|
|
| This is a pointless survey because
|
| 1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

That is a downright daft comment.

No it isn't. Suggesting that the factors that make a combi useful in
a semi commercial kitchen would be important to a domestic user
certainly is.

Many will have domestic installations, I only included it because for most
hot water systems in the UK it is a * Very Bad Idea* to drink from the Hot
water tap. I happen to know that Combis are different.

You wouldn't actually *drink* from the hot water tap because the water
is at 60 degrees. If you were to use it for food preparation, it
would almost certainly be boiled anyway. In terms of washing
dishes, the issue is pretty much irrelevant. If they are washed by
hand, then bacteria etc. would be transferred to the dishes in
handling anyway. If a dishwasher is used, then almost all these days
heat from cold water anyway.

In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.



| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
| compare it with.

Thy will know if they have problems

Will they? You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath. I
think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable. If somebody
has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
may not know that one can do a great deal better.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:34:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


That is a downright daft comment.

No it isn't. Suggesting that the factors that make a combi useful in
a semi commercial kitchen would be important to a domestic user
certainly is.


I think you are being unfair. The question was, how pleased are you
with a combi, and *then* the OP went on to explain why he liked it.
He never suggested all installations were in commercial premises.

In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

However apparently you *can* drink it, if that is important to you.

| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
| compare it with.

Thy will know if they have problems

Will they? You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath. I
think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable. If somebody
has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
may not know that one can do a great deal better.

Again the OP did not ask for *comparisons* but for opinions on each
individuals experience. I drive a small car and am very happy with it
but no doubt most Ferrari drivers would find it a bit of a drag but
again, that wasn't the question was it ?

Andy

In article ,
Andy Pandy wrote:
Again the OP did not ask for *comparisons* but for opinions on each
individuals experience. I drive a small car and am very happy with it
but no doubt most Ferrari drivers would find it a bit of a drag but
again, that wasn't the question was it ?

But the question was presumably about performance? So the car comparison
is fair. Small cars use less fuel and are generally much cheaper to buy
than fast ones. Same as small versus large combis. So a combi covers a
vast range of products with different performance.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:53:18 +0100, Andy Pandy
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:34:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


That is a downright daft comment.

No it isn't. Suggesting that the factors that make a combi useful in
a semi commercial kitchen would be important to a domestic user
certainly is.


I think you are being unfair. The question was, how pleased are you
with a combi, and *then* the OP went on to explain why he liked it.
He never suggested all installations were in commercial premises.

Of course. My point was that this is irrelevant in the context of
domestic use.



In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

However apparently you *can* drink it, if that is important to you.

.... and this is meant to be a major decision making criterion?




| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
| compare it with.

Thy will know if they have problems

Will they? You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath. I
think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable. If somebody
has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
may not know that one can do a great deal better.

Again the OP did not ask for *comparisons* but for opinions on each
individuals experience. I drive a small car and am very happy with it
but no doubt most Ferrari drivers would find it a bit of a drag but
again, that wasn't the question was it ?

That would be like asking small car drivers whether they liked their
small cars when they had never driven a larger or faster one. Of
course, they might not be able to afford a larger or faster one or
have specific reasons for wanting a small one.

However, if you ask a question where an unknown proportion of the
respondents have experienced nothing else better, it doesn't produce a
very meaningful result.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message
...
There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

For kitchen taps, showers and other low volume uses generally yes subject to
not being on a water meter at the time. Stopping and starting a combi to
rinse during washing up wastes a lot of water. For filling a bath a simple
No. The combi I had was a 100,000 BTU gas model.
Since moving we have a storage system and I prefer it.


I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap. I have had
this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.

Hardly relevant unless you like drinks tepid


John

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

Aside from the usual problems with self selecting surveys, I can give
you a few answers to the question:

My own combi (35kW 91% (i.e. 32kW delivered to hot water) Ideal Isar)

General impression - the best combi I have used by far - good control of
temperature at low flow rates, no surprises (slugs of scalding water
etc), instant hot water
Hot water flow rate - on the low end of acceptable
Showers - very good
Bath filling - moderate (depending on ground water temp)

This boiler replaced a poorly designed and implemented storage system.
In comparison it is much better for showers, not as fast for baths, but
can do more than one. The storage system suffered from lack of head,
undersized cylinder, and very slow recovery times.


My Mums Combi (29kW 70% (i.e. 20kW delivered to hot water) Myson Midas)

General impression - reasonable control performance in use, temp control
at low flow rates fluctuates, instant hot water, 'kin large box on wall

Hot water flow rates - unacceptably slow
Showers - ok
Bath filling - very slow (10 - 15 mins)
System replaced a multipoint gas water heater. The combi has slightly
better control at low flow rates (i.e. multipoint only worked when you
turned the hot tap full on). The multipoint did not have the small
internal store of the combi and so had a longer warm up time before
producing hot water. It did however include flow regulation to maintain
the water temp at the selected temperature - so there was no need to
turn the tap down to get hot water.


Neighbours Combi (old design of Valiant - not sure of spec)

General impression - crude
How water flow - slow
Showers - unusable (water temp switches between warm and unheated)
Baths - very slow




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the kettle
from the hot tap rather than the cold.

Not sure I'd want to trade that for taking an hour and a half to fill the
bath, though! g
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
This boiler replaced a poorly designed and implemented storage system.
In comparison it is much better for showers, not as fast for baths, but
can do more than one.

Unless you're meaning two bathrooms, a decent storage system with a fast
recovery cylinder should be capable of re-heating the cylinder in the time
most would take to have a bath. If there is a regular need for two baths
at the same time, I'd say you need a larger than normal storage system.

--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hi;

I went from the old fashion storage with a header tank to Combi.

I gain the area used by the Hot Water Tank (I have a smal semi) and
lost the problomatic cold water header tank in the attic

Very rarely use the bath, rather an electric shower, and pay one bill
for all energy used.

I did install from scratch a Combi that got round my main Combi
complaint in a flat of mine, the complaint is the wait for the hot
water to the Kitchen sink from the far away Combi. (In the flat I sited
the Combi beside the sink). I guess the installation using existing
Stored water pipes was not the correct thing to do, but we all know the
pressure of making a buck.

I cannot help but wonder at modern Combis being sited miles from the
target tap. A new house has the boiler sited in the Garage. Bloody
Regs, I bet.

Regards
Ian

In article .com,
wrote:
I went from the old fashion storage with a header tank to Combi.

I gain the area used by the Hot Water Tank (I have a smal semi) and
lost the problomatic cold water header tank in the attic

I'd like to know what's 'problematic' about a tank with a ball valve? It's
yonks old technology and should work perfectly for many years with
absolutely no attention.

Very rarely use the bath, rather an electric shower, and pay one bill
for all energy used.

Well, if you don't use a bath and you're happy with an electric shower, so
be it.

I did install from scratch a Combi that got round my main Combi
complaint in a flat of mine, the complaint is the wait for the hot
water to the Kitchen sink from the far away Combi. (In the flat I sited
the Combi beside the sink). I guess the installation using existing
Stored water pipes was not the correct thing to do, but we all know the
pressure of making a buck.

No - this is a DIY group and most would be advised to design for
requirements - not making a fast buck.

I cannot help but wonder at modern Combis being sited miles from the
target tap. A new house has the boiler sited in the Garage. Bloody
Regs, I bet.

Since there will be several hot 'taps' in the average house, it's not
possible to have the water heater or store close to all of them.

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Hall wrote:
In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

And, if you have a water softener in circuit, just not feasible.

You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath. I
think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable. If somebody
has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
may not know that one can do a great deal better.

Stored systems can easily do 45l/m

Regards
Capitol

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
kitchen at the Curry Project. We are very satisfied with the Hot water
there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
stored. We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap. I have had
this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.

Earlier today I tried to find a post a did a few year ago both relevant to
this topic.

1) Contained a list with a couple of dozen criteria which might
need to be considered when choosing a heating system. Needless to say the
matter of combi v. stored was addressed therein.

There is no "one size fits all". Why some people should find this such an
unattractive idea I can only make wild speculations.

The other post I found...

To parody Fowler on the subject of split infinitives:

The combi questioner can be divided in several groups.

Firstly, those who neither know nor care.
These are the happiest of all especially if someone else pays the bills.

Secondly, those who don't know and do care.
They post to uk.d-i-y.

Thirdly, those who know and always approve.
We all know who they are.

Fourthly those who know and always condemn.
To those of you who are in this group I beg you to read on. I suspect
that this group is larger than it might otherwise be on account of two
factors. Firstly there are a proportion of professional installers who for
their own reasons prefer to always fit a combi regardless of the needs of
the customer. Secondly those in the third group whose style of advocacy could be
described as abrasive.

Fifthly those who know and discriminate.
There are quite a number of criteria which have to be considered.
User's informed preferences.
User's previous experience.
User's prejudice.
Size of dwelling: Space v. cylinder benefits.
User's HW usage patterns.
Instant Availability v. Storage heat losses.
Number and size of simultaneous or back-to-back HW demands
(Showers v. baths.)
Quality of mains supply.
Pre-Existing arrangements, cost and upheaval implications.
...

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

I've found combi's acceptable for baths and bathroom sinks (flow rate OK,
temperature just about OK if throttled correctly) but in the kitchen you
need somewhat hotter water particularly for "spicing up" a sink of dishes
which has started to cool off. I used to use a kettle but have now put one
of the Screwfix electric tank heaters under the sink, on a second tap.
Perhaps not the greenest solution but very convenient.

In article , Newshound wrote:
I've found combi's acceptable for baths and bathroom sinks (flow rate OK,
temperature just about OK if throttled correctly) but in the kitchen you
need somewhat hotter water particularly for "spicing up" a sink of dishes
which has started to cool off.

My combi is next to the sink so it's dead easy to tweak the HW temperature

I used to use a kettle but have now put one
of the Screwfix electric tank heaters under the sink, on a second tap.
Perhaps not the greenest solution but very convenient.

If the alternative would mean a long dead leg from the combi or HW tank it
might be the greenest solution.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the kettle
from the hot tap rather than the cold.

Many newer kettles have no problem boiling 130ml or so of water, in 20 secs
or so, from cold.
Hot wouldn't speed it up much.

In article ,
Ian Stirling wrote:
I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the
kettle from the hot tap rather than the cold.

Many newer kettles have no problem boiling 130ml or so of water, in 20
secs or so, from cold. Hot wouldn't speed it up much.

Hope you're not telling us you make tea in a cup? ;-)

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Ian Stirling wrote:

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the
kettle from the hot tap rather than the cold.

Many newer kettles have no problem boiling 130ml or so of water, in
20 secs or so, from cold.
Hot wouldn't speed it up much.

If you read the rest of my post - which you snipped - you will realise that
the bit about faster tea was a bit tongue in cheek! [Filling with hot *will*
boil faster - but the difference may be almost negligible, as you imply].
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In message , Dave Fawthrop
writes
There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

You think another thread will help.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

Yes and no :-)

It all depends. I have previous houses with combis, where I was happy
with them - as they best met the requirements of that situation.

However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it
would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system
--
Chris French

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Unless you're meaning two bathrooms, a decent storage system with a fast
recovery cylinder should be capable of re-heating the cylinder in the time
most would take to have a bath.

Yup, what you say is right for a well designed storage system. However
mine wasn't! Recovery time after running a bath was approx 45 mins!
(with the boiler cycling like it was in the tour de france).

So unless you had a nice long soak, it was not ready to run another
straight away after (or even top up the current one with hot water).

The cylinder was a bit undersized for the bath (large corner bath,
450x900mm cylinder).

You also used to get lots of air in the system , and while having a
shower it was easy to drain the header tank (which was not plumbed with
the dedicated shower cold feed set lower than the cylinder feed - so it
could get rather hot without warning).

I did tinker with a few bits of it to make it a bit more usable (like
new shower head with slightly lower flow requirement to save the
scalding, and upped the cylinder temp to about 75, so that way you could
add enough cold to be able to fill the bath, upgraded the controls, and
replumbed the vent so that it stopped sucking in great gobs of air to
the CH circuit), but never CBA to set about it in a big way and re
design it from scratch. So all in all I was not too sorry to replace it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 01:24:41 +0100, chris French wrote:

In message , Dave Fawthrop
writes
There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

You think another thread will help.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

Yes and no :-)

It all depends. I have previous houses with combis, where I was happy
with them - as they best met the requirements of that situation.

However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it
would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system

"Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it
would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system

"Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;

Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)

--
*A person who smiles in the face of adversity probably has a scapegoat *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.

However apparently you *can* drink it, if that is important to you.

Actually, I use the potable nature of instantaneously heated water quite a
lot. I always fill the pan from the hot tap when cooking vegetables or
pasta. Saves quite a few minutes. My system isn't a combi, though. It is a
heat bank, so has no trouble with 40lpm+.

Christian.

I used to use a kettle but have now put one of the Screwfix electric
tank heaters under the sink, on a second tap.
Perhaps not the greenest solution but very convenient.

It's probably not as bad a solution environmentally as you think. There is
less wastage of heat and water (no dead legs), which is good. Also, remember
that the carbon dioxide footprint of using electrical energy isn't worse
than the gas in proportion to the cost. Some electricity is not carbon
fuelled. The additional cost is as much about distribution and generation as
thermodynamic inefficiency.

Christian.

Yes.

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

Cor, what a lof of fuss some people have made about answering this...

I've lived in 9 different premises in my 30-odd years on this planet
and obviously visited friends relatives, stayed in hotels blah, blah in
countless others.

Of the 9:
4 were stored hot water systems.
1 was a university halls of residence with a giant site wide heating
system
4 were combi boilers.

Obviously the best for everything was the halls of residence. Never
ending hot water at a million liters a minute (approximately ;-)

Of the combis only my most recent has given truly acceptable
performance. It's a new Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35kw. We only have
a single bathroom and use a dishwasher for 95% of dishes. It provides
a very nice shower admittedly at the lower end of acceptable pressure
range. The bath is filled within about 10 minutes which I gather some
people think is a long time. Personally I never have 'emergency' baths
and can easily kill 10 minutes. It does a very, very good job of
heating the house and with the trv's on most rads we have a constant
temperature throughout the house. I think this was actually more luck
than judgement, but the modulating ability of the boiler does keep the
flow ticking over at a low temp in milder times.

The other 3 combis were smaller and older and performance varied, from
utterly unnaceptable to liveable with. A friend of mine is selling a
house where the combi will take an hour to fill the bath. I didn't
believe it until he showed me the flow he was getting. I can't help
but think something is wrong with it.

Of the stored systems all were open systems so relying on gravity for
the pressure. The only one to provide a good shower was boosted by a
noisy pump. The tank was quite small and would run out if we had 4
people to get through the shower.

If I had more bathrooms than I do now I'd like to fit a sealed system
with a stored water capability, but I'll do this as part of an
extension if I ever have one.

So there you go. I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
demanding cirumstances.

--
Steve F

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:12:58 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
scrawled:

Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)

Hmm, after seeing the lack of his recent posts I was hoping he'd gone
somewhere else. You've just ruined my already bad day, cheers!
--
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

"Fitz" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot
water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

Cor, what a lof of fuss some people have made about answering this...

I've lived in 9 different premises in my 30-odd years on this planet
and obviously visited friends relatives, stayed in hotels blah, blah in
countless others.

Of the 9:
4 were stored hot water systems.
1 was a university halls of residence with a giant site wide heating
system
4 were combi boilers.

Obviously the best for everything was the halls of residence. Never
ending hot water at a million liters a minute (approximately ;-)

Of the combis only my most recent has given truly acceptable
performance. It's a new Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35kw. We only have
a single bathroom and use a dishwasher for 95% of dishes. It provides
a very nice shower admittedly at the lower end of acceptable pressure
range. The bath is filled within about 10 minutes which I gather some
people think is a long time. Personally I never have 'emergency' baths
and can easily kill 10 minutes. It does a very, very good job of
heating the house and with the trv's on most rads we have a constant
temperature throughout the house. I think this was actually more luck
than judgement, but the modulating ability of the boiler does keep the
flow ticking over at a low temp in milder times.

The other 3 combis were smaller and older and performance varied, from
utterly unnaceptable to liveable with. A friend of mine is selling a
house where the combi will take an hour to fill the bath. I didn't
believe it until he showed me the flow he was getting. I can't help
but think something is wrong with it.

Of the stored systems all were open systems so relying on gravity for
the pressure. The only one to provide a good shower was boosted by a
noisy pump. The tank was quite small and would run out if we had 4
people to get through the shower.

If I had more bathrooms than I do now I'd like to fit a sealed system
with a stored water capability, but I'll do this as part of an
extension if I ever have one.

So there you go. I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
demanding cirumstances.

You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
thread is utter ********

The highest flowrate are floor mounted combis: W-Bosch Highflow 440, Vokera,
Potterton Powermax, Ideal Istor, Viessmann 333, ACV Heatmaster (Stainless
steel hybrid of thermal store, serving the CH, and unvented cylinder and
heat exchanger running through the store, which will deliver 38 litres/min
for 10 mins then drop to 15 litres/min). Beat that!! "never" runs out of
hot water. Hard to on any system.

Wall mounted models with v good flowrates are the Alpha cd50 and
ECO-Hometec.

Want instant water at the taps? Some have a small vessel inside, some have
a "keep warm" heat exchanger, and all can have a secondary circulation loop.
Dead leg pipe is a problem with "all" systems,

As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.
Want two baths to be filled simultaneously? One can do it. Just choose the
model.

Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
flowrates.

I read back on some of the threads. I believe Plowman is shagging Mary. Is
that true?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:

However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it
would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system

"Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;

Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)

I am and I believe you are shagging Mary.

In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes


So there you go. I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
demanding cirumstances.

You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
thread is utter ********


Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
flowrates.

I read back on some of the threads. I believe Plowman is shagging Mary. Is
that true?

Someone's taking the **** here

the spelling's too good


Anyway, dIMM's been put away [1] for causing the floods in Austria and
New Orleans - it was his hacksaw and nothing whatsoever to do with the
so called climatic conditions

[1] overriding the section he's under

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes


So there you go. I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
demanding cirumstances.

You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
thread is utter ********


Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
flowrates.

I read back on some of the threads. I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.
Is
that true?

Someone's taking the **** here

the spelling's too good

Anyway, dIMM's been put away [1] for causing the floods in Austria and
New Orleans -

Maxie, you should keep a handle on that Oriental enchantress. She is a
walking disaster area.

Doctor Drivel wrote:


Most of this thread is utter ********

I guess it will be soon.

Nice hols?

Or have you only just managed to find a news provider who will give you
an account?

As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.

Old crap models *are* the norm. Many boilers last 20 years, so on
average installed combis are going to be at least 10 years old.

Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people
go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that
can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.

So all the high flow rate boiler catalogue porn you can dredge up is
mostly irrelevant since it does not reflect the experience of the
majority of people who have exposure to combis. The thread is about
experience remember, not what you can find on a web site.

I read back on some of the threads. I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.

Guess he has to do something while your mother is menstruating... still
I am sure you will get used to the taste.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Most of this thread is utter ********

...and you have written a lot of the utter ********.

Appalling person, appalling.

Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people
go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that
can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.

Is this what the power rating is? So a 24kW model *uses* 24kW but does
not *provide* 24kW of power?

Peter wrote:

Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people
go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that
can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.


Is this what the power rating is? So a 24kW model *uses* 24kW but does
not *provide* 24kW of power?

Yes exactly. Most times you see a power rating stated for a boiler, it
is an input power - i.e. that is its rate of energy consumption. The
amount that comes out in a way useful to you (as opposed to just
straight out the flue), is a measure of the efficiency.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:03:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.


Gosh, and here was me thinking that they had a burner and a heat
exchanger. What do the old wives tales do? Presumably they talk
up the performance like you do.....


How was Eyebyeza? Paella and chips OK?



--

..andy

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