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#121
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John Rumm wrote: wrote: It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which is great for showers. There is nothing worse than being in a shower and the water runs cold. The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to You seem to have fallen into the trap that IMM could never seem to get out of... (not supprising I guess) If the boiler is providing high flow at high temperature, and runs out of store capacity The store capacity is vast. 380 litres in 10 minutes. That takes some running out. then the flow rate of hot water draw off rate will have to be reduced to maintain the temperature, and the temperature it maintains will be some 20 degrees cooler. So you are still going to have to adjust the controls on the shower to have it remain as it was before. You will also have to accept a reduction in flow rate if your shower is "thristy". The 15 litres per minutes is good feeling backup. With 380 litres per minute I can't ever envisage resorting to the 15 litres per minute. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#123
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John Rumm wrote: wrote: I have a few options. a) Fit the next size up of gas meter. The 1" pipe can stay, as a 1" pipe can deliver more than 6 cubic metres as the small domestic meter is restricted to. With a large meter I could fit a What will transco charge for that? Will the supplier be happy to keep you on a domestic contract with a comercial meter? I am to contact Transco soon. There is no such thing as a commercial meter, only commercial tariffs. combi to do the kitchen and utility room to not rob the Rinnai for flow and pressure. b) Take on IMMs suggestion of having a flow switch in the cold inlet pipe to the Rinnai. This is wired in series in the boiler room thermostat circuit. When the Rinnai makes hot water the CH boiler is switched off. I suppose like a combi sort of thing. As the Rinnai fills baths quickly the CH should not be off for long. I think I would want to see a second independant interlock on that. As you describe it, you have a single point of failure on a safety critical system. Should the flow switch fail (or more likely get sluggish) it could result in a hob being extinguished etc. IMM went on about U6 meters having an overload capability. That sounds sensible. Any overload would be marginal. All appliances would have a gas pipe back top the meter. Cost? Rinnai about =A3850 and a Glow Worm combi is about =A3670. A total of =A31520. That is very competitive to fill two baths or run two Tower Shower continuously. And they save space and are easy to fit. It cost I would not expect a small boiler + thermal store (for example) is going to be much bigger than two boilers/multipoints You have missed the point. The Rinnai will give the flow rate for ever. With storage I would require an exceptionally large, expensive, space consuming cylinder or thermal store. Storage will eventually run out, an instant heater will not. It is the application, and finding the appliances to suit, at the right cost, not having prejudices. The Rinnai is brilliant at what it does. Storage is bursty. A lot of flow for a short time, then nothing. The exception is the floor mounted combis, which do both. High flows, then reverts to a combi when the storage has run out. The best of both. Think hard about it. I did because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind. -- Cheers, John. /=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D/ |
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#124
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#125
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article . com, wrote: I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high quality. Quality sells. Maybe to an innocent doing a first time purchase. Quality sells to anyone. Only the naive, or peopel who only see the bottom line, can't see it. What you seem to recommend wouldn't suit me. OK, you don't like quality. I value performance above style. I give both. I guarantee the houses for a year, and this is a great selling point and sells the houses fast. If anything is wrong I fix it. I have have had few call backs, with most being misunderstandings. But try to combine both. But then my job is a sound engineer, and much of the so called quality equipment sells on looks, not sound. I can't comment on the sound field, only what I know about houses, and what people want and sells, in north and north west London in the past 7 years. -- He who laughs last, thinks slowest. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#126
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#127
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David wrote: In article .com, writes Andy Hall wrote: On 16 Sep 2005 07:57:15 -0700, wrote: I agree with you. I have never renovated a period property. It's probably best that you don't. About the only sensible thing you have said on this thread. If I did I would install fitments to compliment the d=E9cor. It is logical as it would get the asking price and hopefully sell quickly. I would be wea= ry of such properties as I don't fully understand that market and may get bitten. The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making a quick buck. Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90% of cases. Most housebuilders give this Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter. and most of them build crap houses that look good spec wise. Soem are crap, yet some are quite decent. You can't generalise. I think you're mixing ideals here, its easy to dress something up to sell but that doesn't mean the "discerning" buyer has got something that works for them, many crap products are sold by using glossy brochures, clever specs and salesmanship, They look around and see what they are getting. The good points are pointed out to them: Tower Showers at high pressure, boarded lofts with shoot down ladders and lights up there. Downlighters, fully equipped and modern kitchens, fully equipped and modern bathrooms, laminated floors, conservatories, rewired, repiped, and the rest. I think you give you're buyers too much credit, most housebuyers make their decision long before they have checked that there are mixer taps and "state of the art" water heating systems. These are not new homes, they are oldish houses renovated. I "never" underestimate the buyers. Firstly function. The showers, baths and CH have to perform. Enough sockets about. double glazing, washing machines piped in and the same with dishwashers, lots of space. Then form, decor, modern kitchen and utility room (could be function as well) and bathroom and en-suite (essential these days), which must have modern mixers (modern bathroom taps and mixer sell as they exude quality, I try to fit wall mounted side-on bath mixers), modern lighting which may be downlighters or wall lights on dimmers, no pipes or cables on show, nice plain garden with broad leaf pot plants, quality door handles and quality front door. =20 Just common sense. --=20 David |
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#128
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#129
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Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 02:44:41 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:45:35 +0100, "Christian McArdle" wrote: Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a normal bath in a few minutes. That is not what they explicitly say in the spec. They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot be continuous. As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35): 38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted. 18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted. 15lpm continuous. With a 37 minute recovery. In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard 450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it. This is a reasonable conclusion. My point about this product is that the manufacturer obfuscates this information and quotes from the best case conditions. Christian is assuming and assumed wrong. As Christian has pointed out, they are underselling the product. I see no lies or clouding of information, as ACV are a reputable commercial manufacturer. I didn't say that lies were being told. However, important information is missing from the specifications and there is considerable license in the brochure. I looked at the installation manual. It is there. They don't sell to B&Q. That's neither here or there. You must get the point and the market the company is selling to. The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. This is disappointing. It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which is great for showers. Untrue. That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were required in the winter. The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to believe them rather than a confused internet nerd. There is nothing worse than being in a shower and the water runs cold. I agree. With a properly specified storage system as opposed to a compromise box, it is easily possible to have a plentiful supply. I see no compromise at all. It is the best of all worlds. Please read the manual. 38 litres per minute is plentiful supply. The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to delivering two baths simultaneously. Meaningless statement unless you specify the flow rate entailed by that. I stated that. As I have pointed out, wait about 8 or 10 minutes and the average bath will be filled in a few minutes. You would need to define the term "average bath" for that statement to be meaingful. 150 litres do you? And it also does the CH as well, and of RR stainless steel quality. It has components made from stainless steel. I couldn't see the grade specified. ACV are a renowned quality manufacturer, being the fist to use stainless steel cylinders and tank in tanks. I think they know what they are on about. You are in effect saying a Ravenheat and a cheap Screwfix tank and cylinder is superior. I'm not saying that at all. You are, that is clear. However, it is possible to design a proper storage system from high quality components and to exceed the performance of the ACV product comfortably. I know because I've done it. I doubt it very much in the size (very important), performance (it is a combination of storage and a combi, so never runs out of hot water) efficiency and price ACV have achieved. With all the space in the world and a bottomless pit of money I could have 1000 litres per minute filling a 500 litre bath. However, I live in the real world. -- .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#130
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Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 02:29:13 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: he unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store wate= r=2E The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks. The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and th= en fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part. The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190 litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10 minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off at the end of the fill. This is assuming that that is indeed what the product does. The spec. is not clear on this point at all. The spec is very clear. The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at all. It is very clear. Please look again. his thing looks very impressive to me and performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. Untrue. I have looked at the specs, it performs better. Nonsense. You don't have figures for a separate cylinder. I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have the fastest recovery of any cylinder available.. Since it is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted. If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money then you are right. However, I live in the real world. 35 KW Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up far more space and time to connect up. There are many alternatives using a cylinder or thermal store that are quite easy to connect up and do not take up more usable space. I looked at a megaflow and they were around =A31.5K with all the valves attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW pushing it up to well over =A32K. I may as well buy a Viessmann, Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of space. Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all. It does, that is why I have homed in on it. The thing is larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well. It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint. About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it. There is no separate boiler taking up space. am into delivering flows to at least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy = to connect up. I can see why you would find it attractive. Read above and read the specs. I have. You haven't that is clear. The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't. I am not as easily impressed as you are. If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one. The Scottish Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open. =20 =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#131
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#133
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In article .com,
wrote: Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter. For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price - and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install a combi. But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much about them. -- *Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#134
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#135
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Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 13:30:55 -0700, wrote: They don't sell to B&Q. That's neither here or there. You must get the point and the market the company is selling to. The gullible? The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. This is disappointing. It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which is great for showers. Untrue. That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were required in the winter. The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to believe them rather than a confused internet nerd. The only person confused here is you. In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees. 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35 degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees. It delivers 380 litres per minute. The 15 litres per minute is a welcome backup. I don't see many situations where the 380 litres would be exhausted. You are still confused, or drunk. |
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#136
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Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 02:29:13 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: he unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store w= ater. The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks. The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and= then fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I t= hink this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part. The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will alw= ays give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full = bath could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190 litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10 minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish = off at the end of the fill. This is assuming that that is indeed what the product does. The sp= ec. is not clear on this point at all. The spec is very clear. The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at all. It is very clear. Please look again. I have. It is not clear. It is Saturday night and back from the pub. his thing looks very impressive to me and performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. Untrue. I have looked at the specs, it performs better. Nonsense. You don't have figures for a separate cylinder. I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have the fastest recovery of any cylinder available.. Says who? Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of any tanks. Since it is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted. If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money then you are right. However, I live in the real world. The thing is that it is possible to fit a better system than the ACV box into about the same amount of usable space far more conveniently and without needing a crane to do it. I know of none. What system? I am eager to know. I looked at a megaflow and they were around =A31.5K with all the valv= es attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kil= oW pushing it up to well over =A32K. I may as well buy a Viessmann, Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of space. Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all. It does, that is why I have homed in on it. I said *usable* space. I know. The thing is larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well. It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint. About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it. There is no separate boiler taking up space. The difference is that a system boiler can be conveniently fitted in a kitchen cupboard space, A kitchen? Are you kidding? an airing cupboard or a loft. Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra expense, time and valuable space used up. A cylinder can be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft. Why have two one one can do it cheaper. Your box of tricks is of a non-standard size and is extremely heavy. Standard size? It would not be fitting in a kitchen. am into delivering flows to at least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is ea= sy to connect up. I can see why you would find it attractive. Read above and read the specs. I have. You haven't that is clear. That sounds like a typical IMM phrase. He does impress. The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't. I am not as easily impressed as you are. If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one. I already have, several times, You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders. and I'm not going to repeat the very obvious limitations. If you want to choose to ignore the limitations, then that's up to you. You haven't given any at all, except say a separate boiler and cylinder can go in kitchens. Any data you gave was assumed and utter wrong. The Scottish Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open. WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no idea. They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would like to know, as I would too. I haven't assumed anything. All I have done is to look at the spec.sheets and brochures and have pointed out pieces that are missing or glossed over. Look at the installation manual. You have assumed lots, and concluded incorrectly. The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder, controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7 years. =20 =20 =20 =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#137
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article .com, wrote: Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter. For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price - and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install a combi. The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and Gledhill Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing cupboards and boilers in the kitchen of all places. I have seem many Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a tank and power shower pump. But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much about them. My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted bathrooms. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire. -- *Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#138
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wrote:
That sounds like a typical IMM phrase. He does impress. Ah bless.... You are talking to yourself again aren't you IMM. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#139
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wrote in message oups.com... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article .com, wrote: Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter. For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price - and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install a combi. The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and Gledhill Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing cupboards You point being what exactly, or do you expect people to run their CH just to 'air' their clothing, having a HW tank in the airing cupbord makes perfect sence. and boilers in the kitchen of all places. I have seem many Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a tank and power shower pump. So were do you place your Combi boilers, in the loft, garage, outhouse, I suspect many would say that a boiler taking up the space of one wall mounted cupboard is a small price to pay for convenience of access (boilers always malfunction at the most inconvenient time). But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much about them. My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted bathrooms. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire. Nor can Dave I suspect, hint, read peoples sig' lines before placing foot in mouth!... |
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#140
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On 17 Sep 2005 16:35:28 -0700, wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article .com, wrote: Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter. For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price - and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install a combi. The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and Gledhill Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing cupboards and boilers in the kitchen of all places. So you are proposing fitting a box which is larger that a cylinder and may well not fit into a typical airing cupboard. It certainly won't fit into the standard kitchen footprints for appliances. Therefore the conventional system makes a better use of space. - The boiler can fit into a wall cupboard space rather than using up more than an appliance floor footprint; or easily into a loft. - A conventional cylinder is smaller than one of your box packages and uses less space in a cupboard. I have seem many Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a tank and power shower pump. But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much about them. My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted bathrooms. ... and who don't have the experience of anything to compare against. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire. ... or anywhere else outside a relatively limited market. -- *Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#141
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On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote: The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at all. It is very clear. Please look again. I have. It is not clear. It is Saturday night and back from the pub. Are you ? his thing looks very impressive to me and performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. Untrue. I have looked at the specs, it performs better. Nonsense. You don't have figures for a separate cylinder. I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have the fastest recovery of any cylinder available.. Says who? Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of any tanks. I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the heat exchange contact area. I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted. Since it is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted. If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money then you are right. However, I live in the real world. The thing is that it is possible to fit a better system than the ACV box into about the same amount of usable space far more conveniently and without needing a crane to do it. I know of none. What system? I am eager to know. Very simple. Fast recovery cylinder of storage capacity adequate for the requirements under all conditions of water temperature and pattern of use. I looked at a megaflow and they were around £1.5K with all the valves attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW pushing it up to well over £2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann, Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of space. Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all. It does, that is why I have homed in on it. I said *usable* space. I know. The thing is larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well. It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint. About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it. There is no separate boiler taking up space. The difference is that a system boiler can be conveniently fitted in a kitchen cupboard space, A kitchen? Are you kidding? They do in mine. Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats? an airing cupboard or a loft. Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra expense, time and valuable space used up. There's every logic in it. By having separate components it is possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places appropriate to the situation. If you have a single big box, you are going to have to provision specially for it. How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space? A cylinder can be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft. Why have two one one can do it cheaper. Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space. Your box of tricks is of a non-standard size and is extremely heavy. Standard size? It would not be fitting in a kitchen. So space from another room wood have to be found..... am into delivering flows to at least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to connect up. I can see why you would find it attractive. Read above and read the specs. I have. You haven't that is clear. That sounds like a typical IMM phrase. He does impress. He might impress you, but you are in a minority of two, with him being the other. The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't. I am not as easily impressed as you are. If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one. I already have, several times, You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders. I've made the shortcomings completely clear. The manufacturer avoids these areas, understandably. If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away. and I'm not going to repeat the very obvious limitations. If you want to choose to ignore the limitations, then that's up to you. You haven't given any at all, except say a separate boiler and cylinder can go in kitchens. Any data you gave was assumed and utter wrong. It isn't. Take a look at the missing information and the issues of size and weight. The Scottish Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open. WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no idea. They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would like to know, as I would too. Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as being in any way reliable. I haven't assumed anything. All I have done is to look at the spec.sheets and brochures and have pointed out pieces that are missing or glossed over. Look at the installation manual. You have assumed lots, and concluded incorrectly. I haven't assumed anything, but simply pointed out the limitations such as size and weight and highlighted what is missing. The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder, controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7 years. Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding practicality and performance. You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#142
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On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 13:30:55 -0700, wrote: They don't sell to B&Q. That's neither here or there. You must get the point and the market the company is selling to. The gullible? The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. This is disappointing. It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which is great for showers. Untrue. That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were required in the winter. The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to believe them rather than a confused internet nerd. The only person confused here is you. In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees. 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35 degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees. It delivers 380 litres per minute. No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time. The 15 litres per minute is a welcome backup. It would be if it actually achieved it. However, this only happens under a limited set of conditions. I don't see many situations where the 380 litres would be exhausted. At 45 degrees, I can. You are still confused, or drunk. I'm never either. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#143
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Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 13:30:55 -0700, wrote: They don't sell to B&Q. That's neither here or there. You must get the point and the market the company is selling to. The gullible? The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. This is disappointing. It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which is great for showers. Untrue. That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were required in the winter. The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to believe them rather than a confused internet nerd. The only person confused here is you. In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees. 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35 degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees. It delivers 380 litres per minute. No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time. Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If so I would be interested to know. The 15 litres per minute is a welcome backup. It would be if it actually achieved it. However, this only happens under a limited set of conditions. Again, if you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data I would be interested. I don't see many situations where the 380 litres would be exhausted. At 45 degrees, I can. You are still confused, or drunk. I'm never either. Last night you were certainly drunk. -- .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#144
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John Rumm wrote: wrote: That sounds like a typical IMM phrase. He does impress. Ah bless.... You are talking to yourself again aren't you IMM. Another one. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#145
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Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 16:35:28 -0700, wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article .com, wrote: Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter. For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price - and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install a combi. The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and Gledhill Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing cupboards and boilers in the kitchen of all places. So you are proposing fitting a box which is larger that a cylinder and may well not fit into a typical airing cupboard. I'm not proposing anything. It certainly won't fit into the standard kitchen footprints for appliances. Therefore the conventional system makes a better use of space. Like a kitchen cupboard taken up by a noisy boiler. - The boiler can fit into a wall cupboard space rather than using up more than an appliance floor footprint; or easily into a loft. - A conventional cylinder is smaller than one of your box packages and uses less space in a cupboard. A Powermax or Viessmann 33 is neat and smaller. I have seem many Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a tank and power shower pump. But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much about them. My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted bathrooms. .. and who don't have the experience of anything to compare against. You are insulting them. They do have experience of houses, most of better specification that the avarage British house. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire. .. or anywhere else outside a relatively limited market. North London has about 3 or 4 million people in it. -- *Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. -- .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#146
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:::Jerry:::: wrote: So were do you place your Combi boilers, in the loft, garage, outhouse, Anywhere out of the way not restricting expansion and bathroom and kitchen fitting. |
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#147
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wrote in message oups.com... :::Jerry:::: wrote: So were do you place your Combi boilers, in the loft, garage, outhouse, Anywhere out of the way not restricting expansion and bathroom and kitchen fitting. You mean anywhere that is thus inconvenient, a typical developers solution, clueless as they never have to live in their own creations.... |
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#148
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On 18 Sep 2005 03:26:20 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 16:35:28 -0700, wrote: It certainly won't fit into the standard kitchen footprints for appliances. Therefore the conventional system makes a better use of space. Like a kitchen cupboard taken up by a noisy boiler. Only if you choose a noisy boiler. - The boiler can fit into a wall cupboard space rather than using up more than an appliance floor footprint; or easily into a loft. - A conventional cylinder is smaller than one of your box packages and uses less space in a cupboard. A Powermax or Viessmann 33 is neat and smaller. ... Fine, but they are still a compromise. Viessmann make good products, but the Vitodens 333 is still larger than a HW cylinder for consideration for housing in an airing cupboard and only has 85 litres of HW storage. This is not going to be a great performer. As the manufacturer says - they are intended for people who don't know whether they need a storage system or combi. Thus they fall short of what can be achieved by a storage system and achieve nothing in terms of usable space saving. I have seem many Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a tank and power shower pump. But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much about them. My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted bathrooms. .. and who don't have the experience of anything to compare against. You are insulting them. The boot is on the other foot here. How many of them have seen a properly designed and implemented storage system? They do have experience of houses, most of better specification that the avarage British house. Yes, but you are trying to sell them refurbished British houses using a technology that is not well suited to that environment. If they want to buy it, then fine. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire. .. or anywhere else outside a relatively limited market. North London has about 3 or 4 million people in it. I'm sure. But how many naive foreign buyers? -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#149
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On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, wrote: In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees. 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35 degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees. It delivers 380 litres per minute. No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time. Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If so I would be interested to know. The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*. The issue is that the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty useless. 15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees. The concrete evidence is in basic laws of thermodynamics where Energy = mass x specific heat x temperature rise or fall. Taking 35kw and 15 litres (very close to 15kg) per minute and the specific heat capacity of water of 4180 J/kg.K gives 35000/((15 x 4180)/60) for achievable temperature rise and a result of 33.5 degrees. Thus if the cold supply is at 5 degrees, which is certainly possible in winter (5-8 is the normal range), the output temperature can only be around 40 degrees at the 15 lpm continuous flow rate. There are thousands of sites on the internet on schoolboy physics which cover this principle. If you look at the more meaningful figures of how many litres/hour are produced, the number at 45 degrees (dt=35) drops to a disappointing 18lpm. The 15 litres per minute is a welcome backup. It would be if it actually achieved it. However, this only happens under a limited set of conditions. Again, if you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data I would be interested. Look at the equation above. If you plug in numbers for higher temperatures, the continuous flow rate is even less. I don't see many situations where the 380 litres would be exhausted. At 45 degrees, I can. You are still confused, or drunk. I'm never either. Last night you were certainly drunk. Nope. Didn't touch a drop. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#150
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wrote in message ups.com... Christian McArdle wrote: Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a normal bath in a few minutes. That is not what they explicitly say in the spec. They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot be continuous. As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35): 38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted. 18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted. 15lpm continuous. With a 37 minute recovery. In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard 450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it. The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. The 23lpm (38-15) delta 35 water should only take 23*10/15 minutes to recover, which is just under 16 minutes, although it might just be to cover a slow ramping down of the recovery rate towards the end, which might suggest an indirect coil method of heating. If it is an unvented cylinder without TMV at 60C, then I make the size (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 55) = 146L plus a bit. Christian. Go to their web site http://www.acv-uk.com. I downloaded the installation instructions. It is the only domestic combi from a large commercial range. IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. From the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit capacity) and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder side is 80 litres. The unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water. The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks. The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part. The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190 litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10 minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off at the end of the fill. This thing looks very impressive to me and performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. A 35 KW Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up far more space and time to connect up. I am into delivering flows to at least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to connect up. It can be unvented from the mains, or vented if the mains can't cope, and can't be replaced, and then pumped from a tank. It is on the list of choices. I haven't read all this thread but some good stuff here at last. You have it right. The ACV Heatmaster is a combination of: 1. Unvented cylinder, 2. Thermal store 3. Infinitely continuous combi, There is no compromise. It uses a stainless steel tank-in-tank and a cool bottom section to promote efficiency. The best on the market and it does exactly what it says on the box. ACV are a top quality manufacturer, with offices all over the world, who invented the tank-in-tank, which has been available to the commercial market in the UK for many years. ACV have introduced a domestic range of tank-in-tanks and the ACV Heatmaster in the UK this year - the domestic Heatmaster 35kW been here a matter of months. Tank-in tanks are used extensively on the Continent, because of the rapid re-heat, resistance to corrosion and scale - the best you can get. The Heatmaster promotes condensing efficiency by having a near sealed, bottom section that has the DHW coil running through it to pre-heat the DHW, and keep the bottom section cool. The CH return also enters this bottom cooler section too. The DHW enters the bottom pre-heat coil and then into the upper inner stainless steel cylinder (the tank in the tank). This upper tank is heated from all sides, even the top, being totally immersed in the thermal store water - It hangs. The stainless gas heat exchanger runs right though the two cylinders (tanks) and out the bottom. The figures 380 litres in 10 minutes have been mentioned a lot. To get that by using a separate tank-in-tank cylinder you would need a large cylinder and a quality 35kW boiler. The cost is more than the Heatmaster, as you have gleaned, and no infinitely continuous 15 litres/min combi performance that the Heatmaster offers. To get the 380 litres in 10 mins using a normal stainless steel indirect cylinder you would need a large 360 litres cylinder, which would be bigger than the Heatmaster itself and then the boiler to try and locate somewhere....and cost more. The Heatmaster, as long as the thermal store inhibitor is replaced every 4 years, should last 50 years. It is simple, with the burner being a detachable standard part modulating pre-mix commercial unit. For a full two bathroom property the Heatmaster is brilliant and great value for money. It will do three baths as long as three are not run at the same time (a rare event in a domestic house). Don't make issue with the lunatics as they have nothing to offer for anyone to gain from, you have already figured it out. They go boozing with Phil Kyle. If I had to replace my system right now the Heatmaster would be right at the top of the list. It is a one off purchase as it will probably outlive most people. |
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#157
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In article . com,
wrote: It delivers 380 litres per minute. No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time. Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If so I would be interested to know. FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a minute. You're into fire appliance territory. -- *I don't work here. I'm a consultant Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article . com, wrote: It delivers 380 litres per minute. No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time. Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If so I would be interested to know. FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a minute. You're into fire appliance territory. You were boasting you could get 30 l/min from your hot tap.What calcs did you do? The finger in the air electric caber calculations. 38 l/min from a 25mm MDPE pipe is quite common. You boasted a combi could not beat your 30 l/min and if one did you would go out and buy it. One has so when are buying it? A Welsher eh! |
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"Matt" wrote in message ... wrote: Think hard about it. I did because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind. But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago. This one lower than whale ****. Implying people leave bombs on buses. Not funny Buster. |
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"Matt" wrote in message ... wrote: I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have the fastest recovery of any cylinder available.. No they don't. What copper cylinder company do you work for? |
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