On 04 Jan 2004, Daniel Prince wrote:

My understanding is that gas water heaters are made with
glass lined steel tanks and that they usually fail because
the steel rusts out. What I want to know is: How does the
water get to the steel if it is glass lined? Does the glass
lining have holes and/or cracks in it when it is new? Do
holes and/or cracks develop later? If the holes and/or
cracks develop later, how and why do they appear?

A few different ways. Hopefully not. Quite possibly. Leaky
internal/interface plumbing, chemical reactions caused by
things like hard water, calcium buildup, etc.

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, Daniel Prince wrote:

My understanding is that gas water heaters are made with
glass lined steel tanks and that they usually fail because
the steel rusts out. What I want to know is: How does the
water get to the steel if it is glass lined? Does the glass
lining have holes and/or cracks in it when it is new? Do
holes and/or cracks develop later? If the holes and/or
cracks develop later, how and why do they appear?

A few different ways. Hopefully not. Quite possibly. Leaky
internal/interface plumbing, chemical reactions caused by
things like hard water, calcium buildup, etc.

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.


Tom Pendergast


How does hard water cause a water heater tank to leak?

How does calcium cause a water heater tank to leak?

What chemical reaction are you speaking of?

On 04 Jan 2004, Oscar_Lives wrote:


Bite me, troll.

Go indulge your sick perverted fantasies, then call somebody
who gives a crap.



--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, Oscar_Lives wrote:


Bite me, troll.

Go indulge your sick perverted fantasies, then call somebody
who gives a crap.



Tom Pendergast


Thank you for your helpful answer.

«Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference betwen those
two water heaters, in a physical sense. ... The $100 is simply an extended
warranty»

Wise old man is not so wise. The difference is the warranty length AND the
size/quality of the sacrificial anode that retards the corrosion of the
tank. A longer warrantied gas water heater **will** last longer before it
fails.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Oscar_Lives" wrote in message
news:Ch3Kb.61093$xX.383084@attbi_s02...

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, Daniel Prince wrote:

My understanding is that gas water heaters are made with
glass lined steel tanks and that they usually fail because
the steel rusts out. What I want to know is: How does the
water get to the steel if it is glass lined? Does the glass
lining have holes and/or cracks in it when it is new? Do
holes and/or cracks develop later? If the holes and/or
cracks develop later, how and why do they appear?

A few different ways. Hopefully not. Quite possibly. Leaky
internal/interface plumbing, chemical reactions caused by
things like hard water, calcium buildup, etc.

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.


Tom Pendergast


How does hard water cause a water heater tank to leak?

How does calcium cause a water heater tank to leak?

What chemical reaction are you speaking of?

From: "Marilyn and Bob" se


«Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference betwen those
two water heaters, in a physical sense. ... The $100 is simply an extended
warranty»

Wise old man is not so wise. The difference is the warranty length AND the
size/quality of the sacrificial anode that retards the corrosion of the
tank. A longer warrantied gas water heater **will** last longer before it
fails.
--
Peace,
BobJ

Where is this anode? Is it replaceable? A friend has a WH in a cabin upstate
and says he has to replace the WH every 3-4 years due to the mountain water.
Would replacing the anode every year or 2 extend the life?

Thanks

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 02:30:37 GMT, "Marilyn and Bob" wrote:

«Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference betwen those
two water heaters, in a physical sense. ... The $100 is simply an extended
warranty»

Wise old man is not so wise. The difference is the warranty length AND the
size/quality of the sacrificial anode that retards the corrosion of the
tank. A longer warrantied gas water heater **will** last longer before it
fails.

Do gas water heaters have anodes?
--
Mike

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:41:07 GMT, The Michael
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 02:30:37 GMT, "Marilyn and Bob" wrote:

«Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference betwen those
two water heaters, in a physical sense. ... The $100 is simply an extended
warranty»

Wise old man is not so wise. The difference is the warranty length AND the
size/quality of the sacrificial anode that retards the corrosion of the
tank. A longer warrantied gas water heater **will** last longer before it
fails.

Do gas water heaters have anodes?

Mine has two.

Sacrificial anodes have nothing to do with the energy source. An electric
unit's heating elements are insulated.

gerry


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

"Daniel Prince" wrote in message
...

My understanding is that gas water heaters are made with glass lined
steel tanks and that they usually fail because the steel rusts out.
What I want to know is: How does the water get to the steel if it is
glass lined? Does the glass lining have holes and/or cracks in it when
it is new? Do holes and/or cracks develop later? If the holes and/or
cracks develop later, how and why do they appear?

....etc.

Check out the following website.

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water heaters, but
I do recall car batteries being sold with varying-length warranties, and
as far as I could see it was the same battery, but they punched a
different warranty expiration date depending on the price paid.

MB


On 01/04/04 08:22 pm I-zheet M'drurz put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:br

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.

Hi, MB
You just showed your ignorance.
Battery has many different quality. Thay are not all same.
First look at their rigidity of casing and weight.
Are they same?
Tony

Minnie Bannister wrote:
I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water heaters, but
I do recall car batteries being sold with varying-length warranties, and
as far as I could see it was the same battery, but they punched a
different warranty expiration date depending on the price paid.

MB


On 01/04/04 08:22 pm I-zheet M'drurz put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:br

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.


Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables and
*know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.

Umm, no, that is not true about car batteries. If you
compare same size batteries with different warrantees (same
store), you will notice that the cranking power or whatever
power measurement they use is different and increases with
the length of the warrantee. A 36 month battery is
different from a 60 month, which is different from a 72
month. You will note, however, if you compare batteries
with the same warrantee, that the electrical rating varies
with the size. So when you shop for a battery, if you pick
a specific size, the longer warrantee will be a more
powerful battery. In many cases several sizes will fit, so
pick the largest size that will fit, not necessarily the
original size or the size of the last replacement.


Minnie Bannister wrote:

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water heaters, but
I do recall car batteries being sold with varying-length warranties, and
as far as I could see it was the same battery, but they punched a
different warranty expiration date depending on the price paid.

MB

On 01/04/04 08:22 pm I-zheet M'drurz put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:br

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.

Hi,
Largest does not necessarily mean the best for the application
if alternator can't charge it full. Structure of battery and
materials used makes the difference in quality.
Tony

George E. Cawthon wrote:
Umm, no, that is not true about car batteries. If you
compare same size batteries with different warrantees (same
store), you will notice that the cranking power or whatever
power measurement they use is different and increases with
the length of the warrantee. A 36 month battery is
different from a 60 month, which is different from a 72
month. You will note, however, if you compare batteries
with the same warrantee, that the electrical rating varies
with the size. So when you shop for a battery, if you pick
a specific size, the longer warrantee will be a more
powerful battery. In many cases several sizes will fit, so
pick the largest size that will fit, not necessarily the
original size or the size of the last replacement.


Minnie Bannister wrote:

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water heaters, but
I do recall car batteries being sold with varying-length warranties, and
as far as I could see it was the same battery, but they punched a
different warranty expiration date depending on the price paid.

MB

On 01/04/04 08:22 pm I-zheet M'drurz put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:br

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.

On 05 Jan 2004, Minnie Bannister wrote:

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water
heaters, but I do recall car batteries being sold with
varying-length warranties, and as far as I could see it was
the same battery, but they punched a different warranty
expiration date depending on the price paid.

Exactly. It's ALL number crunching, and anybody that believes
differently is burying their head in the sand.

It's all sitting in an Excel file in a computer at the
battery/water heater/? company:

They have historical data on how long the product lasts before
failure.

With that data, they can calculate failure rates for the
entire lifespan of an average battery.

With that data, they can calculate how muct to charge for the
"extended warranty" (longer guarantee) so they still make
money on the deal.

Economics 101. Capitalism 101. God Bless America.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no
difference betwen those two water heaters, in a physical
sense. Nothing except the model number and warranty
length. Just like most things on earth, it's possible
to generate mortality tables and *know* how long a water
heater should last. The $100 is simply an extended
warranty. It's all in the tables.




--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.


I had read that the 12 year warranty models usually had to anodes vs
the one anode in the 6 year warranty model. They know that you aren't
going to actually replace the sacraficial anode.

Do gas water heaters have anodes?

Yes.

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...er-anodes.html

I can't imagine a car battery where higher capacity is not
better or a car that couldn't fully charge it the same as it
would a smaller capacity battery. If the alternator fully
charges the smaller battery, then it will fully charge the
larger battery assuming the same load. Structure and
materials do make a difference but are largely the same in
any manufacture's basic series of batteries. Anyway, no one
needs more than a 5-year battery. The point is the length
of time of the battery warranty relates to the battery
capacity, not just some added on amount for a warrantee.

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Largest does not necessarily mean the best for the application
if alternator can't charge it full. Structure of battery and
materials used makes the difference in quality.
Tony

George E. Cawthon wrote:
Umm, no, that is not true about car batteries. If you
compare same size batteries with different warrantees (same
store), you will notice that the cranking power or whatever
power measurement they use is different and increases with
the length of the warrantee. A 36 month battery is
different from a 60 month, which is different from a 72
month. You will note, however, if you compare batteries
with the same warrantee, that the electrical rating varies
with the size. So when you shop for a battery, if you pick
a specific size, the longer warrantee will be a more
powerful battery. In many cases several sizes will fit, so
pick the largest size that will fit, not necessarily the
original size or the size of the last replacement.


Minnie Bannister wrote:

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water heaters, but
I do recall car batteries being sold with varying-length warranties, and
as far as I could see it was the same battery, but they punched a
different warranty expiration date depending on the price paid.

MB

On 01/04/04 08:22 pm I-zheet M'drurz put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:br

I have read in this newsgroup that water heaters with 12
year warranties cost about $100 more than heaters with a 6
year warranty.

Wise old man once explained it to me: There is no difference
betwen those two water heaters, in a physical sense. Nothing
except the model number and warranty length. Just like most
things on earth, it's possible to generate mortality tables
and *know* how long a water heater should last. The $100 is
simply an extended warranty. It's all in the tables.

I-zheet M'drurz wrote:

On 05 Jan 2004, Minnie Bannister wrote:

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water
heaters, but I do recall car batteries being sold with
varying-length warranties, and as far as I could see it was
the same battery, but they punched a different warranty
expiration date depending on the price paid.

Exactly. It's ALL number crunching, and anybody that believes
differently is burying their head in the sand.

It's all sitting in an Excel file in a computer at the
battery/water heater/? company:

They have historical data on how long the product lasts before
failure.

With that data, they can calculate failure rates for the
entire lifespan of an average battery.

With that data, they can calculate how muct to charge for the
"extended warranty" (longer guarantee) so they still make
money on the deal.

Economics 101. Capitalism 101. God Bless America.


--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

Maybe they do that where Minnie shops, but not the places I
shop. If it were just punching in new numbers then explain
why the capacities of the batteries with the longer
warrantees are larger or in some cases the number of plates
and the weights are different.

I no longer recall where I encountered this, but I distinctly remember
the battery having been already taken off the shelf or brought from the
storeroom, and *after that* I was asked how long a warranty I wanted.

Of course it is possible to find batteries with different capacities and
different CCA ratings and perhaps correspondingly different warranty
periods -- and that may even be the more common situation -- but I do
not believe that it is universally and necessarily so

MB


On 01/06/04 08:49 pm George E. Cawthon put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:br

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water
heaters, but I do recall car batteries being sold with
varying-length warranties, and as far as I could see it was
the same battery, but they punched a different warranty
expiration date depending on the price paid.

Exactly. It's ALL number crunching, and anybody that believes
differently is burying their head in the sand.

It's all sitting in an Excel file in a computer at the
battery/water heater/? company:

They have historical data on how long the product lasts before
failure.

With that data, they can calculate failure rates for the
entire lifespan of an average battery.

With that data, they can calculate how muct to charge for the
"extended warranty" (longer guarantee) so they still make
money on the deal.

Economics 101. Capitalism 101. God Bless America.

Maybe they do that where Minnie shops, but not the places I
shop. If it were just punching in new numbers then explain
why the capacities of the batteries with the longer
warrantees are larger or in some cases the number of plates
and the weights are different.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...


I-zheet M'drurz wrote:

On 05 Jan 2004, Minnie Bannister wrote:

I see that somebody else has suggested otherwise wrt water
heaters, but I do recall car batteries being sold with
varying-length warranties, and as far as I could see it was
the same battery, but they punched a different warranty
expiration date depending on the price paid.

Exactly. It's ALL number crunching, and anybody that believes
differently is burying their head in the sand.

It's all sitting in an Excel file in a computer at the
battery/water heater/? company:

They have historical data on how long the product lasts before
failure.

With that data, they can calculate failure rates for the
entire lifespan of an average battery.

With that data, they can calculate how muct to charge for the
"extended warranty" (longer guarantee) so they still make
money on the deal.

Economics 101. Capitalism 101. God Bless America.


--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

Maybe they do that where Minnie shops, but not the places I
shop. If it were just punching in new numbers then explain
why the capacities of the batteries with the longer
warrantees are larger or in some cases the number of plates
and the weights are different.

Hey guys, don't be so hard on Tommy Pedophile. You see, his self esteem has
been badly bruised since that Megan's Law listing was made public...


Tommy has proven time and time again that he doesn't know anything about air
filters, electricity, home wiring, appliances, HVAC-R, combustion venting,
and now about soft water and water heaters.

Since there are no Pedophile newsgroups, he just posts here to try to
rebuild his warped reputation.

Why do gas water heaters fail?

They don't study the night before the exam?

Jabs

"George E. Cawthon" wrote



Gary Slusser wrote:

"Daniel Prince" wrote

They fail due to failure of the glass lining. It fails due to the
manufacture of the tank but more likely, the handling of the tank before
or
during installation. Bumps, hit, drops etc. effect the lining and then
the
water is against the steel. If the glass was intact all over the steel,
the
tank wouldn't fail from the inside out. Problem is, all lining will fail
at
some point if there is hard water in the tank and heat is applied under
the
resulting scale. Steam is created under and in the 'sediment' (hard
water
scale) and steam is very powerful. The resulting explosion causes a
break in
the lining and time is now the enemy to bare steel under water. Water of
very varying quality as far as it being acidic or otherwise aggressive
to
bare steel. And of course the outside of oil and gas fired water heaters
(the tank) is also bare steel with flame added every so often for
various
periods of time.

Anyway, here's a copy of a (false) statement I saw on one of the URLs in
a
post on down in the thread:
"Water softeners can help reduce sediment, but anodes can corrode in as
little as six months if the water is over-softened."

Question: How do you over soften water? Water softening is the removal
of
hardness from a water. All the water tests I've ever used states water
as
soft if not hard to some 'degree'; usually stated as grains per gallon
or
mg/l or ppm, of hardness. I know of and use a tincture soap water test
that
shows if the water is soft or hard but... maybe these water heater
manufacturers and web site guys know something about water hardness that
I
don't? But I don't think so. Water is either soft or hard, and the
amount of
hardness is measurable but the softness, it is not measurable.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Ain't life grand when everybody uses different terms, but I
think this is a trick question. Of course you can't make
water too soft, because soft in absolute terms means an
absence of minerals, i.e., pure water. But water quality
and water softner people (you?) talk about hardness which is
the concentration of certain minerals and they consider
softness the absence of just those specific minerals. I'll
bet that what they meant wasn't "too soft" but too
conductive by adding replacement ions. Now whether water
softners really increase the concentration of ions to
significantly the increases the corrosion of the anode, I
don't know.

I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless we speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that causes the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Minnie Bannister wrote:

I no longer recall where I encountered this, but I distinctly remember
the battery having been already taken off the shelf or brought from the
storeroom, and *after that* I was asked how long a warranty I wanted.

Of course it is possible to find batteries with different capacities and
different CCA ratings and perhaps correspondingly different warranty
periods -- and that may even be the more common situation -- but I do
not believe that it is universally and necessarily so

MB

((Snipped))

Sorry for disputing you, but I've never seen it or heard of
it and I've bought quite a few batteries at a lot of
different places. In fact, the only auto item I know of
where you buy different length warranties and the item
doesn't physically change is extended service warranties on
vehicles.

Gary Slusser wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote



Gary Slusser wrote:

"Daniel Prince" wrote

They fail due to failure of the glass lining. It fails due to the
manufacture of the tank but more likely, the handling of the tank before
or
during installation. Bumps, hit, drops etc. effect the lining and then
the
water is against the steel. If the glass was intact all over the steel,
the
tank wouldn't fail from the inside out. Problem is, all lining will fail
at
some point if there is hard water in the tank and heat is applied under
the
resulting scale. Steam is created under and in the 'sediment' (hard
water
scale) and steam is very powerful. The resulting explosion causes a
break in
the lining and time is now the enemy to bare steel under water. Water of
very varying quality as far as it being acidic or otherwise aggressive
to
bare steel. And of course the outside of oil and gas fired water heaters
(the tank) is also bare steel with flame added every so often for
various
periods of time.

Anyway, here's a copy of a (false) statement I saw on one of the URLs in
a
post on down in the thread:
"Water softeners can help reduce sediment, but anodes can corrode in as
little as six months if the water is over-softened."

Question: How do you over soften water? Water softening is the removal
of
hardness from a water. All the water tests I've ever used states water
as
soft if not hard to some 'degree'; usually stated as grains per gallon
or
mg/l or ppm, of hardness. I know of and use a tincture soap water test
that
shows if the water is soft or hard but... maybe these water heater
manufacturers and web site guys know something about water hardness that
I
don't? But I don't think so. Water is either soft or hard, and the
amount of
hardness is measurable but the softness, it is not measurable.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Ain't life grand when everybody uses different terms, but I
think this is a trick question. Of course you can't make
water too soft, because soft in absolute terms means an
absence of minerals, i.e., pure water. But water quality
and water softner people (you?) talk about hardness which is
the concentration of certain minerals and they consider
softness the absence of just those specific minerals. I'll
bet that what they meant wasn't "too soft" but too
conductive by adding replacement ions. Now whether water
softners really increase the concentration of ions to
significantly the increases the corrosion of the anode, I
don't know.

I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless we speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that causes the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently
but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary
person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics.
Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and
every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't
concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe
over-softened means too basic, but I would think that
rusting would be more associated with too acidic.

Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone
know what stopped means, and few people really know what
softened means and if they did they would say, "What the
hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water,
you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is
there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing
or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.

BTW, where does all that damn salt go?

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:



I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of
different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless we
speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually
said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that causes
the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently
but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary
person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics.
Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and
every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't
concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe
over-softened means too basic, but I would think that
rusting would be more associated with too acidic.

Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone
know what stopped means, and few people really know what
softened means and if they did they would say, "What the
hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water,
you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is
there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing
or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.

BTW, where does all that damn salt go?

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

Using your definition of the word pure, or at least its usage today, the
water that my industry can call pure is deionized water at 18 megohms.

To prevent corrosion, we look at the causes and if there are any in the
water, we buffer the acidity, reduce the DO and CO2 content along with the
chlorides and sulfate, H2S and go on. None of them have anything to do with
purifying water BTW. Even in the terminologies applied by the common folks,
they see purifying as filtering and then usually, that means removal of
chlorine, anything floating in the water or otherwise smelly. They mostly
don't mean the other A-Z thingies found in water because many don't know of
them; that's usually due to them not reading and having attention spans
measured in seconds. All due to their life style choices of making every
penny they can so they can qualify for more credit and have more 'things'
and simply not having enough time, or energy.

The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to the
water.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

Hey Gary,

Been watching this one for a while and just couldn't keep my hands off
the keyboard any longer. ;-) I'll throw my 2 cents into the air and
then revert to lurking again.

Oversoftening in my mind is bring the calcium content of a water to
zero, i.e. exactly what an ion-exchange softener does. From my POV as
a public utility water provider, this is similar to jumping out of the
skillet of extreme hard water and into the fire of 'oversoftened'
water. Both extremes create their own problems. If a customer *wants*
soft*er* water (IMHO very few actually *need* soft water) they can
install a diverter around the softener to meter some unsoftened water
back into treated stream thus lowering the hardness to a manageable
level without 'oversoftening'. Most systems even have the diverting
plumbing already in place, lacking only the metering valve.

Really Gary, sometimes ya gotta think outside the box... or resin tank
as the case may be. ;-)

(I'm not even going to touch where the salt goes... this time anyway.
My folks still have rotting stumps where the beautiful blue spruce and
shag-bark hickory use to grow.)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

Hey Gary,

Been watching this one for a while and just couldn't keep my hands off
the keyboard any longer. ;-) I'll throw my 2 cents into the air and
then revert to lurking again.

Oversoftening in my mind is bring the calcium content of a water to
zero, i.e. exactly what an ion-exchange softener does. From my POV as
a public utility water provider, this is similar to jumping out of the
skillet of extreme hard water and into the fire of 'oversoftened'
water. Both extremes create their own problems. If a customer *wants*
soft*er* water (IMHO very few actually *need* soft water) they can
install a diverter around the softener to meter some unsoftened water
back into treated stream thus lowering the hardness to a manageable
level without 'oversoftening'. Most systems even have the diverting
plumbing already in place, lacking only the metering valve.

Really Gary, sometimes ya gotta think outside the box... or resin tank
as the case may be. ;-)

(I'm not even going to touch where the salt goes... this time anyway.
My folks still have rotting stumps where the beautiful blue spruce and
shag-bark hickory use to grow.)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

Sorry to post a follow-up so quickly but thought of this just as I hit
the 'Post' button.

Did a quick search and came-up with the following "Hardness" table.
(Saw several but just closed my eyes and grabbed one.)

0 to 70 PPM (Very soft water)
70 to 140 PPM (Soft Water)
140 to 210 PPM (Medium Hard)
210 to 320 PPM (Fairly Hard)
320 to 540 PPM (Hard)
540 PPM and above (Very hard)

According to this, my water ranges between 'Soft Water' and 'Medium
Hard' i.e. 120-175 ppm Total Hardness as CaCO3.

Interesting that your industry, Gary, only has one definition for
'Soft Water' while everyone else uses ranges... but then everyone else
isn't trying to sell softeners. [$cha-ching$] ;-)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

Sorry to post a follow-up so quickly but thought of this just as I hit
the 'Post' button.

Did a quick search and came-up with the following "Hardness" table.
(Saw several but just closed my eyes and grabbed one.)

0 to 70 PPM (Very soft water)
70 to 140 PPM (Soft Water)
140 to 210 PPM (Medium Hard)
210 to 320 PPM (Fairly Hard)
320 to 540 PPM (Hard)
540 PPM and above (Very hard)

According to this, my water ranges between 'Soft Water' and 'Medium
Hard' i.e. 120-175 ppm Total Hardness as CaCO3.

Interesting that your industry, Gary, only has one definition for
'Soft Water' while everyone else uses ranges... but then everyone else
isn't trying to sell softeners. [$cha-ching$] ;-)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

Gary Slusser wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:



I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of
different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless we
speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually
said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that causes
the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently
but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary
person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics.
Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and
every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't
concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe
over-softened means too basic, but I would think that
rusting would be more associated with too acidic.

Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone
know what stopped means, and few people really know what
softened means and if they did they would say, "What the
hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water,
you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is
there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing
or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.

BTW, where does all that damn salt go?

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

I didn't say that about terms, I said every industry has
their own terms. Yep, the ordinary person doesn't know
much. I didn't say that.


Using your definition of the word pure, or at least its usage today, the
water that my industry can call pure is deionized water at 18 megohms.

Not my definition of pure. Pure water is what you have when
you triple glass distill water. Like the term Chemically
Pure (CP)


To prevent corrosion, we look at the causes and if there are any in the
water, we buffer the acidity, reduce the DO and CO2 content along with the
chlorides and sulfate, H2S and go on. None of them have anything to do with
purifying water BTW. Even in the terminologies applied by the common folks,
they see purifying as filtering and then usually, that means removal of
chlorine, anything floating in the water or otherwise smelly. They mostly
don't mean the other A-Z thingies found in water because many don't know of
them; that's usually due to them not reading and having attention spans
measured in seconds. All due to their life style choices of making every
penny they can so they can qualify for more credit and have more 'things'
and simply not having enough time, or energy.

I agree, most people don't know about all the a-z thingies
but they assume that filtering removes all the harmful
stuff.

The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to the
water.

That's not a lot but how does that compute in ppm of sodium
for a fairly hard water?

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Gary Slusser wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:



I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of
different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless we
speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually
said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that causes
the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently
but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary
person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics.
Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and
every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't
concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe
over-softened means too basic, but I would think that
rusting would be more associated with too acidic.

Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone
know what stopped means, and few people really know what
softened means and if they did they would say, "What the
hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water,
you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is
there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing
or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.

BTW, where does all that damn salt go?

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

I didn't say that about terms, I said every industry has
their own terms. Yep, the ordinary person doesn't know
much. I didn't say that.


Using your definition of the word pure, or at least its usage today, the
water that my industry can call pure is deionized water at 18 megohms.

Not my definition of pure. Pure water is what you have when
you triple glass distill water. Like the term Chemically
Pure (CP)


To prevent corrosion, we look at the causes and if there are any in the
water, we buffer the acidity, reduce the DO and CO2 content along with the
chlorides and sulfate, H2S and go on. None of them have anything to do with
purifying water BTW. Even in the terminologies applied by the common folks,
they see purifying as filtering and then usually, that means removal of
chlorine, anything floating in the water or otherwise smelly. They mostly
don't mean the other A-Z thingies found in water because many don't know of
them; that's usually due to them not reading and having attention spans
measured in seconds. All due to their life style choices of making every
penny they can so they can qualify for more credit and have more 'things'
and simply not having enough time, or energy.

I agree, most people don't know about all the a-z thingies
but they assume that filtering removes all the harmful
stuff.

The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to the
water.

That's not a lot but how does that compute in ppm of sodium
for a fairly hard water?

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Thanks for the article, and thanks for the conversions.
Grains per gallon has absolutely no meaning to me than
acre-feet per hour has to most people. Considering that a
can of Cambells soup may have nearly 900 mg of salt, the
numbers you show for salt addition of softened water are
indeed miniscule.

RB wrote:

I'll throw my two cents in here. These terms "hard" and "soft" are
quite subjective. The real issue is modifying water so that it is
useable. I'm attaching a short discussion I put together almost 10
years ago when I was in a debate with my parents' physician about the
damage they were doing to themselves by using a water softener. "Adding
so much sodium to their daily intake" was his claim. I was surprised he
didn't remember much chemistry.

RB

David Thomas wrote:
"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...


Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?


Hey Gary,

Been watching this one for a while and just couldn't keep my hands off
the keyboard any longer. ;-) I'll throw my 2 cents into the air and
then revert to lurking again.

Oversoftening in my mind is bring the calcium content of a water to
zero, i.e. exactly what an ion-exchange softener does. From my POV as
a public utility water provider, this is similar to jumping out of the
skillet of extreme hard water and into the fire of 'oversoftened'
water. Both extremes create their own problems. If a customer *wants*
soft*er* water (IMHO very few actually *need* soft water) they can
install a diverter around the softener to meter some unsoftened water
back into treated stream thus lowering the hardness to a manageable
level without 'oversoftening'. Most systems even have the diverting
plumbing already in place, lacking only the metering valve.

Really Gary, sometimes ya gotta think outside the box... or resin tank
as the case may be. ;-)

(I'm not even going to touch where the salt goes... this time anyway.
My folks still have rotting stumps where the beautiful blue spruce and
shag-bark hickory use to grow.)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Ion Exchange Water Softening.doc
Ion Exchange Water Softening.doc Type: WINWORD File (application/msword)
Encoding: base64

Thanks for the article, and thanks for the conversions.
Grains per gallon has absolutely no meaning to me than
acre-feet per hour has to most people. Considering that a
can of Cambells soup may have nearly 900 mg of salt, the
numbers you show for salt addition of softened water are
indeed miniscule.

RB wrote:

I'll throw my two cents in here. These terms "hard" and "soft" are
quite subjective. The real issue is modifying water so that it is
useable. I'm attaching a short discussion I put together almost 10
years ago when I was in a debate with my parents' physician about the
damage they were doing to themselves by using a water softener. "Adding
so much sodium to their daily intake" was his claim. I was surprised he
didn't remember much chemistry.

RB

David Thomas wrote:
"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...


Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?


Hey Gary,

Been watching this one for a while and just couldn't keep my hands off
the keyboard any longer. ;-) I'll throw my 2 cents into the air and
then revert to lurking again.

Oversoftening in my mind is bring the calcium content of a water to
zero, i.e. exactly what an ion-exchange softener does. From my POV as
a public utility water provider, this is similar to jumping out of the
skillet of extreme hard water and into the fire of 'oversoftened'
water. Both extremes create their own problems. If a customer *wants*
soft*er* water (IMHO very few actually *need* soft water) they can
install a diverter around the softener to meter some unsoftened water
back into treated stream thus lowering the hardness to a manageable
level without 'oversoftening'. Most systems even have the diverting
plumbing already in place, lacking only the metering valve.

Really Gary, sometimes ya gotta think outside the box... or resin tank
as the case may be. ;-)

(I'm not even going to touch where the salt goes... this time anyway.
My folks still have rotting stumps where the beautiful blue spruce and
shag-bark hickory use to grow.)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Ion Exchange Water Softening.doc
Ion Exchange Water Softening.doc Type: WINWORD File (application/msword)
Encoding: base64

David Thomas wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Thanks for the article, and thanks for the conversions.
Grains per gallon has absolutely no meaning to me than
acre-feet per hour has to most people. Considering that a
can of Cambells soup may have nearly 900 mg of salt, the
numbers you show for salt addition of softened water are
indeed miniscule.

Miniscule, perhaps George, but this source of sodium should still be
made aware to a patient on a sodium restricted diet.

I agree, but RB's paper indicated about 76 mg/l of sodium
for moderately hard water. Many of those patients would eat
a can of soup that had ten times as much sodium and never
give it a thought. Much like the person with a hole in his
throat still smoking cigaretts. Besides, how many people
drink a two liters of water a day?

I'm not convinced that following the maximum recommendation
of salt will have much beneficial effect, especially
compared to the potential bad side effect of low sodium.




RB wrote:

I'll throw my two cents in here. These terms "hard" and "soft" are
quite subjective. The real issue is modifying water so that it is
useable. I'm attaching a short discussion I put together almost 10
years ago when I was in a debate with my parents' physician about the
damage they were doing to themselves by using a water softener. "Adding
so much sodium to their daily intake" was his claim. I was surprised he
didn't remember much chemistry.

RB

RB, I'm sorry but I never saw your original post and the attachment
link in this response post does not exist for my Google newsgroup
browser.

I'm not at all surprised the doctor was rusty on basic chemistry. He's
been dealing with higher order biological reactions for so long, it's
like the physicist who has to use a calculator to find the sum of two
plus two. His mind is just operating on a different level. ;-)

Actually you give too much credence to doctor's original
knowledge of basic chemistry. Many never understood it; but
you are right most forgot it because it (especially physical
chem) really has little to do with what they do.

"David Thomas" wrote
"Gary Slusser" wrote

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary
person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their
own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

Hey Gary,

Been watching this one for a while and just couldn't keep my hands off
the keyboard any longer. ;-) I'll throw my 2 cents into the air and
then revert to lurking again.

Oversoftening in my mind is bring the calcium content of a water to
zero, i.e. exactly what an ion-exchange softener does. From my POV as
a public utility water provider, this is similar to jumping out of the
skillet of extreme hard water and into the fire of 'oversoftened'
water. Both extremes create their own problems. If a customer *wants*
soft*er* water (IMHO very few actually *need* soft water) they can
install a diverter around the softener to meter some unsoftened water
back into treated stream thus lowering the hardness to a manageable
level without 'oversoftening'. Most systems even have the diverting
plumbing already in place, lacking only the metering valve.

Really Gary, sometimes ya gotta think outside the box... or resin tank
as the case may be. ;-)

(I'm not even going to touch where the salt goes... this time anyway.
My folks still have rotting stumps where the beautiful blue spruce and
shag-bark hickory use to grow.)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

Spoken just as I would expect from a long term water company employee where
the water you're selling the once unsuspecting public is very hard. All the
while saying it's good for them and they shouldn't complain.

As I told you a few years ago. If the discharge from any water treatment is
directed at vegetation, expect it to not do well, and die. If the vegetation
is wanted, the direction of the water should be redirected to another
location, minus any wanted vegetation of course.

You're welcome to return to lurk mode now.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

"David Thomas" wrote
Sorry to post a follow-up so quickly but thought of this just as I hit
the 'Post' button.

You oughta be.

Did a quick search and came-up with the following "Hardness" table.
(Saw several but just closed my eyes and grabbed one.)

0 to 70 PPM (Very soft water)
70 to 140 PPM (Soft Water)
140 to 210 PPM (Medium Hard)
210 to 320 PPM (Fairly Hard)
320 to 540 PPM (Hard)
540 PPM and above (Very hard)

Why don't you tell us what industry and association publishes and uses that
chart. It certainly isn't commercial or industria type folks or the water
treatment industry. Actually it isn't anyne that needs quality water for
whatever thier intended use.

According to this, my water ranges between 'Soft Water' and 'Medium
Hard' i.e. 120-175 ppm Total Hardness as CaCO3.

Interesting that your industry, Gary, only has one definition for
'Soft Water' while everyone else uses ranges... but then everyone else
isn't trying to sell softeners. [$cha-ching$] ;-)

Name us other industries that use your chart and would agree with your
personal preferrence for hard water when they need to improve their water
quality.

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:



I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of
different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless
we
speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness
content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to
industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually
said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of
the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that
causes
the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently
but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary
person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics.
Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and
every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't
concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe
over-softened means too basic, but I would think that
rusting would be more associated with too acidic.

Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone
know what stopped means, and few people really know what
softened means and if they did they would say, "What the
hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water,
you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is
there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing
or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.

BTW, where does all that damn salt go?

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary
person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their
own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

I didn't say that about terms, I said every industry has
their own terms. Yep, the ordinary person doesn't know
much. I didn't say that.


Using your definition of the word pure, or at least its usage today, the
water that my industry can call pure is deionized water at 18 megohms.

Not my definition of pure. Pure water is what you have when
you triple glass distill water. Like the term Chemically
Pure (CP)


To prevent corrosion, we look at the causes and if there are any in the
water, we buffer the acidity, reduce the DO and CO2 content along with
the
chlorides and sulfate, H2S and go on. None of them have anything to do
with
purifying water BTW. Even in the terminologies applied by the common
folks,
they see purifying as filtering and then usually, that means removal of
chlorine, anything floating in the water or otherwise smelly. They
mostly
don't mean the other A-Z thingies found in water because many don't know
of
them; that's usually due to them not reading and having attention spans
measured in seconds. All due to their life style choices of making every
penny they can so they can qualify for more credit and have more
'things'
and simply not having enough time, or energy.

I agree, most people don't know about all the a-z thingies
but they assume that filtering removes all the harmful
stuff.

The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to
drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to
the
water.

That's not a lot but how does that compute in ppm of sodium
for a fairly hard water?

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

I see where I have a typo above concerning the 7.85 mg/l sodium added per
each 10 gpg.... it should say 7.85 per each 1 gpg. Sorry about that. Skim
milk has 530 mg/l per 8 oz glass. Those under sodium restricted diets count
their sodium intake and know how to keep it under their personally
acceptable levels per day. Many common foods and beverages have much more
sodium than say 20 gpg water that has been softened by ion exchange water
softening. Also, getting much sodium into the blood stream by drinking water
containing sodium is at best very questionable.

Distillation is not commercially viable as a solution to treating water to
"pure" quality water, and without carbon filtration, certain things found in
supposedly potable water will not be removed by distillation; such as gasses
and volatile chemicals.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

"David Thomas" wrote
"Gary Slusser" wrote

The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to
drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to
the
water.

Humm, I think you dropped a decimal there Gary. That or 'compensated
hardness' isn't measured as CaCO3.

Molcular weight of CaCO3 is 100 while Sodium is 23. Two Sodiums are
exchanged for every Calcium so the exchange ratio is 46/100 or 0.46.
10 gpg multiplied by 17.1 ((mg/L)/gpg) gives a 'compensated hardness'
of 171 mg/L, multiplied by our exchange ratio of 0.46 gives 78.7 mg/L
of Sodium added to the water, not 7.8. You missed the correct answer
by a factor of ten.

I sure hope you don't do that on your invoices. ;-)

David Thomas
Senior Analyst

See my reply to George above. And check your formula or math. It's 7.85 mg/l
per each gpg.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

"David Thomas" wrote
"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Thanks for the article, and thanks for the conversions.
Grains per gallon has absolutely no meaning to me than
acre-feet per hour has to most people. Considering that a
can of Cambells soup may have nearly 900 mg of salt, the
numbers you show for salt addition of softened water are
indeed miniscule.

Miniscule, perhaps George, but this source of sodium should still be
made aware to a patient on a sodium restricted diet.

RB wrote:

I'll throw my two cents in here. These terms "hard" and "soft" are
quite subjective. The real issue is modifying water so that it is
useable. I'm attaching a short discussion I put together almost 10
years ago when I was in a debate with my parents' physician about the
damage they were doing to themselves by using a water softener.
"Adding
so much sodium to their daily intake" was his claim. I was surprised
he
didn't remember much chemistry.

RB

RB, I'm sorry but I never saw your original post and the attachment
link in this response post does not exist for my Google newsgroup
browser.

It was/is a .doc file attachment of an article he wrote concerning the
subject of sodium in softened water.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/
I'm not at all surprised the doctor was rusty on basic chemistry. He's
been dealing with higher order biological reactions for so long, it's
like the physicist who has to use a calculator to find the sum of two
plus two. His mind is just operating on a different level. ;-)

Gary Slusser wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote


Gary Slusser wrote:



I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of
different
terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless
we
speak
to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness
content.
Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to
industrial
water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually
said;
over-softened.

Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of
the
water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that
causes
the
glass lined steel tank to rust through.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently
but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary
person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics.
Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and
every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't
concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe
over-softened means too basic, but I would think that
rusting would be more associated with too acidic.

Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone
know what stopped means, and few people really know what
softened means and if they did they would say, "What the
hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water,
you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is
there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing
or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.

BTW, where does all that damn salt go?

Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary
person of
today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their
own
as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about
oversoftening?

I didn't say that about terms, I said every industry has
their own terms. Yep, the ordinary person doesn't know
much. I didn't say that.


Using your definition of the word pure, or at least its usage today, the
water that my industry can call pure is deionized water at 18 megohms.

Not my definition of pure. Pure water is what you have when
you triple glass distill water. Like the term Chemically
Pure (CP)


To prevent corrosion, we look at the causes and if there are any in the
water, we buffer the acidity, reduce the DO and CO2 content along with
the
chlorides and sulfate, H2S and go on. None of them have anything to do
with
purifying water BTW. Even in the terminologies applied by the common
folks,
they see purifying as filtering and then usually, that means removal of
chlorine, anything floating in the water or otherwise smelly. They
mostly
don't mean the other A-Z thingies found in water because many don't know
of
them; that's usually due to them not reading and having attention spans
measured in seconds. All due to their life style choices of making every
penny they can so they can qualify for more credit and have more
'things'
and simply not having enough time, or energy.

I agree, most people don't know about all the a-z thingies
but they assume that filtering removes all the harmful
stuff.

The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to
drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to
the
water.

That's not a lot but how does that compute in ppm of sodium
for a fairly hard water?

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Help Forum www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/

I see where I have a typo above concerning the 7.85 mg/l sodium added per
each 10 gpg.... it should say 7.85 per each 1 gpg. Sorry about that. Skim
milk has 530 mg/l per 8 oz glass. Those under sodium restricted diets count
their sodium intake and know how to keep it under their personally
acceptable levels per day. Many common foods and beverages have much more
sodium than say 20 gpg water that has been softened by ion exchange water
softening. Also, getting much sodium into the blood stream by drinking water
containing sodium is at best very questionable.

Distillation is not commercially viable as a solution to treating water to
"pure" quality water, and without carbon filtration, certain things found in
supposedly potable water will not be removed by distillation; such as gasses
and volatile chemicals.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates/phpBB2/


Yes, I know, prepared foods often have lots of sodium. Not
sure what you mean about sodium into the blood stream from
salt water. Sodium goes very fast directly into the blood
stream. People that run out of sodium can go into a "fit"
where the muscles all contract. Pouring highly salted water
into the clamped shut mouth can make the body relax in
seconds. But if you just drink salty water you are likely
to barf. Having worked in a smelter in front of bottle
furnaces for separating zinc from lead and then helped pour
silver, I am familiar with salt loss. We often took 4-6
salt tablets per day and still the sweat would pouring off
you would be absent any salt taste. At that point you knew
to take more salt pills so you wouldn't have severe leg
cramps.

I don't know about commercially now, but it was the standard
at one time for certain uses and remains the standard for
scientific work. Yes there are some chemicals that can only
be removed by other measures as they will move over with the
water, but still design makes a large difference. Distilled
water from copper stills is often not acceptable for
biologic work because the very minute traces of copper will
interfere.