hello all,
first post here I just picked up the above lathe on sale for 179.00 and the
8 piece tool set this week and before I unpack it and set it up I would like
some input. im new to turning but did some research and from what iv read
this is the same lathe as the jet and the grizzly is similar but with a 1/2
hp motor.

I know I need to learn how to sharpen the tools but that's all I know at the
moment.

thanks
Dom

Dominic,
First thing, if you bought their least expensive tool set (usually around
$12.00), then take it back to HF, and exchange for their high speed steel
set (about $35.00). Or if you'd like, keep the set you got and use them for
sharpening practice until you get the basics of sharpening down, then get
the high speed steel set.That plus a 3/8 or 1/2 inch bowl gouge will give
you a good basic set that you can add to as your requirements dictate.

Then go to Woodcraft or similar store and look through their woodturning
books. What you want to look for are the ones on basic turning. Personally,
I like the ones by Richard Raffan, but Keith Rowley, Dale Nish, Ernie
Conover, and others are recommended by various members of this group. Pick
one and read it cover to cover, then go out to practice what you think you
read, then go back and re-read some more. Study the pictures, angles, body
positions, etc. Then go to the American Association of Woodturners site,
www.woodturner.org/locals/aawlocal.cfm to see if there is a local club in
your area. If so, go to a meeting, tell them you're a beginner and you'll
get more offers to help than you can take.

As far as the lathe you bought, it's probably the best lathe per dollar that
you can buy. It's not a great one, but it is adequate for a beginning
turner. A lot of people started either with it or the Sears monotube, and
after learning more about turning, were able to make an informed decision
about a better machine. Good luck.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX
=================================

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hello all,
first post here I just picked up the above lathe on sale for 179.00 and
the
8 piece tool set this week and before I unpack it and set it up I would
like
some input. im new to turning but did some research and from what iv read
this is the same lathe as the jet and the grizzly is similar but with a
1/2
hp motor.

I know I need to learn how to sharpen the tools but that's all I know at
the
moment.

thanks
Dom

hey ken thanks, yes it was the 39 dollar set on sale for 29, I am planning
on going to woodcraft this weekend, I believe the store by me sponsors the
Detroit wood turners club or something like that.
thanks again
Dom
"Ken Moon" wrote in message
link.net...
Dominic,
First thing, if you bought their least expensive tool set (usually around
$12.00), then take it back to HF, and exchange for their high speed steel
set (about $35.00). Or if you'd like, keep the set you got and use them
for
sharpening practice until you get the basics of sharpening down, then get
the high speed steel set.That plus a 3/8 or 1/2 inch bowl gouge will give
you a good basic set that you can add to as your requirements dictate.

Then go to Woodcraft or similar store and look through their woodturning
books. What you want to look for are the ones on basic turning.
Personally,
I like the ones by Richard Raffan, but Keith Rowley, Dale Nish, Ernie
Conover, and others are recommended by various members of this group. Pick
one and read it cover to cover, then go out to practice what you think you
read, then go back and re-read some more. Study the pictures, angles, body
positions, etc. Then go to the American Association of Woodturners site,
www.woodturner.org/locals/aawlocal.cfm to see if there is a local club in
your area. If so, go to a meeting, tell them you're a beginner and you'll
get more offers to help than you can take.

As far as the lathe you bought, it's probably the best lathe per dollar
that
you can buy. It's not a great one, but it is adequate for a beginning
turner. A lot of people started either with it or the Sears monotube, and
after learning more about turning, were able to make an informed decision
about a better machine. Good luck.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX
=================================

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hello all,
first post here I just picked up the above lathe on sale for 179.00 and
the
8 piece tool set this week and before I unpack it and set it up I would
like
some input. im new to turning but did some research and from what iv
read
this is the same lathe as the jet and the grizzly is similar but with a
1/2
hp motor.

I know I need to learn how to sharpen the tools but that's all I know at
the
moment.

thanks
Dom

Canton Twp?

My Sister in Law lives out there, but I've missed going last two times we
passed through - important family stuff, y'know. Been to the one in
Sacramento (mom) more than there. Maybe this summer.

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hey ken thanks, yes it was the 39 dollar set on sale for 29, I am planning
on going to woodcraft this weekend, I believe the store by me sponsors the
Detroit wood turners club or something like that.
thanks again

the one in sterling heights George, but I have been to the one in canton.
the sterling heights store is 15 min. from me.
"George" wrote in message
...
Canton Twp?

My Sister in Law lives out there, but I've missed going last two times we
passed through - important family stuff, y'know. Been to the one in
Sacramento (mom) more than there. Maybe this summer.

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hey ken thanks, yes it was the 39 dollar set on sale for 29, I am
planning
on going to woodcraft this weekend, I believe the store by me sponsors
the
Detroit wood turners club or something like that.
thanks again

ok I don't want to start buying a bunch of stuff I don't really need but I
have been browsing around and I see that HF has a duplicator on sale for
129.00 and it looks like the one rockler is selling for 199.00. what about a
steady rest? the reason why I bought the lathe in the first place is to make
chair spindles and such.
thanks again
Dom
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
the one in sterling heights George, but I have been to the one in canton.
the sterling heights store is 15 min. from me.
"George" wrote in message
...
Canton Twp?

My Sister in Law lives out there, but I've missed going last two times
we
passed through - important family stuff, y'know. Been to the one in
Sacramento (mom) more than there. Maybe this summer.

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hey ken thanks, yes it was the 39 dollar set on sale for 29, I am
planning
on going to woodcraft this weekend, I believe the store by me sponsors
the
Detroit wood turners club or something like that.
thanks again

Dom, don't worry about things like the duplicator or steady rest at this
time, there will be plenty of things to spend your money. For right now,
just waste some wood until you have enough experience under your belt to
make informed decisions about further purchases.

Terry Poperszky


On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:29:32 -0500, Dominic Palazzola wrote:

ok I don't want to start buying a bunch of stuff I don't really need but I
have been browsing around and I see that HF has a duplicator on sale for
129.00 and it looks like the one rockler is selling for 199.00. what about a
steady rest? the reason why I bought the lathe in the first place is to make
chair spindles and such.
thanks aga

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote: (clip)I see that HF has a duplicator for sale
for129.00 (clip) what about a steady rest? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While a steady rest is a useful lathe attachment, I doubt that you would
need it for chair spindles. And, if you are keeping your investments down,
you can build one.

I have never used a duplicator, but I seem to recall some past postings on
this, which said that they were tried, and the turner eventually ended doing
the job better without it. I think one of the problems is getting good
surface finish.

Maybe someone with direct experience can respond. Ruth, are you still
reading this group?

hello again and thanks for the replies so far,
well I finally unpacked the lathe and set it up on a work bench instead of
on the stand it came with . I cleaned it up with some mineral spirits and it
looks pretty good. but I do have some questions regarding turning for the
first time.
I put a piece of oak between centers to try it out, set the lathe to lowest
speed and took a the 3/4" gouge and im not to impressed with the results so
far. should I be running the piece faster? running my thumb over the gouge
it doesn't feel all that sharp, maybe these tools need to be sharpened.
im thinking today may be a good day to go to woodcraft and get a tape or
book on basic turning and sharpening.
thanks again
Dom


"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hello all,
first post here I just picked up the above lathe on sale for 179.00 and
the
8 piece tool set this week and before I unpack it and set it up I would
like
some input. im new to turning but did some research and from what iv read
this is the same lathe as the jet and the grizzly is similar but with a
1/2
hp motor.

I know I need to learn how to sharpen the tools but that's all I know at
the
moment.

thanks
Dom

Always sharpen your tools after you buy them before you use them. They
do not come
sharp and ready to use.

Dominic Palazzola wrote:

hello again and thanks for the replies so far,
well I finally unpacked the lathe and set it up on a work bench instead of
on the stand it came with . I cleaned it up with some mineral spirits and it
looks pretty good. but I do have some questions regarding turning for the
first time.
I put a piece of oak between centers to try it out, set the lathe to lowest
speed and took a the 3/4" gouge and im not to impressed with the results so
far. should I be running the piece faster? running my thumb over the gouge
it doesn't feel all that sharp, maybe these tools need to be sharpened.
im thinking today may be a good day to go to woodcraft and get a tape or
book on basic turning and sharpening.
thanks again
Dom


"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...


hello all,
first post here I just picked up the above lathe on sale for 179.00 and


the


8 piece tool set this week and before I unpack it and set it up I would


like


some input. im new to turning but did some research and from what iv read
this is the same lathe as the jet and the grizzly is similar but with a


1/2


hp motor.

I know I need to learn how to sharpen the tools but that's all I know at


the


moment.

thanks
Dom

PS a newly purchased chisel is about as sharp as the wit of some of the
posters to this
group

william kossack wrote:

Always sharpen your tools after you buy them before you use them.
They do not come
sharp and ready to use.
Dominic Palazzola wrote:

hello again and thanks for the replies so far,
well I finally unpacked the lathe and set it up on a work bench
instead of
on the stand it came with . I cleaned it up with some mineral spirits
and it
looks pretty good. but I do have some questions regarding turning
for the
first time.
I put a piece of oak between centers to try it out, set the lathe to
lowest
speed and took a the 3/4" gouge and im not to impressed with the
results so
far. should I be running the piece faster? running my thumb over the
gouge
it doesn't feel all that sharp, maybe these tools need to be sharpened.
im thinking today may be a good day to go to woodcraft and get a tape or
book on basic turning and sharpening.
thanks again
Dom


"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...


hello all,
first post here I just picked up the above lathe on sale for 179.00 and


the


8 piece tool set this week and before I unpack it and set it up I would


like


some input. im new to turning but did some research and from what iv
read
this is the same lathe as the jet and the grizzly is similar but with a


1/2


hp motor.

I know I need to learn how to sharpen the tools but that's all I
know at


the


moment.

thanks
Dom

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message

hello again and thanks for the replies so far,
well I finally unpacked the lathe and set it up on a work bench instead of
on the stand it came with . I cleaned it up with some mineral spirits and
it
looks pretty good. but I do have some questions regarding turning for the
first time.
I put a piece of oak between centers to try it out, set the lathe to
lowest
speed and took a the 3/4" gouge and im not to impressed with the results
so
far. should I be running the piece faster? running my thumb over the gouge
it doesn't feel all that sharp, maybe these tools need to be sharpened.

I bought the same set at HF, but mostly for the purpose of learning to
sharpen HSS tools. They had no edge to speak of out-of-the-box. While my
technique needs LOTS of improvement, I did get two of the gouges in pretty
fair shape, and they cut almost as well as my Sorby gouges of the same
dimensions. Sharpen 'em and experience the *wow factor*.

Max

what sharpening system did you end up with? I just came back from woodcraft
and im leaning towards a low rpm grinder and the one-way system. looks like
the learning curve is pretty simple.
"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message

hello again and thanks for the replies so far,
well I finally unpacked the lathe and set it up on a work bench instead
of
on the stand it came with . I cleaned it up with some mineral spirits
and
it
looks pretty good. but I do have some questions regarding turning for
the
first time.
I put a piece of oak between centers to try it out, set the lathe to
lowest
speed and took a the 3/4" gouge and im not to impressed with the results
so
far. should I be running the piece faster? running my thumb over the
gouge
it doesn't feel all that sharp, maybe these tools need to be sharpened.

I bought the same set at HF, but mostly for the purpose of learning to
sharpen HSS tools. They had no edge to speak of out-of-the-box. While my
technique needs LOTS of improvement, I did get two of the gouges in pretty
fair shape, and they cut almost as well as my Sorby gouges of the same
dimensions. Sharpen 'em and experience the *wow factor*.

Max

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
what sharpening system did you end up with? I just came back from
woodcraft
and im leaning towards a low rpm grinder and the one-way system. looks
like
the learning curve is pretty simple.
================================
Dominic,
Sharpening with a jig has a fairly short learning curve, and will reproduce
consistent results. However, there will be a time when you want to learn
freehand sharpening, both to produce a specific grind not available from a
jig and to increase your sharpening speed. That learning curve is not nearly
as fast. I've been freehand sharpening for 50 years and I still learn new
techniques.
Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message

what sharpening system did you end up with? I just came back from
woodcraft
and im leaning towards a low rpm grinder and the one-way system. looks
like
the learning curve is pretty simple.

This was the topic of a thread just completed earlier this week. There are
lots of systems for sharpening, and no doubt some are better than others.
Andrew Hilton gave good advice in recommending a basic 8" grinder with 1"
wide friable aluminum oxide (pink, white, blue, whatever) wheels of 60-80
grit on one side and 120 on the other. I'm currently using a very
inexpensive 6" Delta grinder with those hard gray wheels. They hollow grind
the tools badly, but I've been able to hone them relatively flat with
sanding discs on my disc sander (Andrew apparently uses something similar
for sharpening). The slow, wet wheels, such as the Tormek, are appealing,
but apparently cause rust and a mess, and cost quite a bit more. My point
is, even though my system is probably the worst possible, it does work, and
I've got sharp tools to show for it, even if they aren't pretty. I just
ordered a Delta GR450 grinder today which, with 8" wheels, should lessen the
hollow grinding somewhat.

Do a Google search and read Andrew's answers. Others may have additional
comments.

Max

I've seen twice now, this comment about Tormeks causing rust and a mess.
Neither you, nor Andrew who started this silliness appear to have ever
owned a Tormek. I have, and I've never had any problem with rust, nor
mess. Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal
dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek.

There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.

I have both high speed and low speed dry grinder systems. I will soon be
doing a comparative review of the Woodcut Tru-grind jig and the new
Kelton Sharpening jigs. I also have the Ellsworth jig. I have a Tormek
with all of its jigs. I have two verticle belt sanders (one of which is
mounted to the original Lee Valley Power Sharpening System). I have both
the new and old versions of the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System. I
also have the full range of nonpowered sharpening devices, including
waterstones, diamond stones, oilstones and ceramic stones. About the
only sharpening technique I have not explored (but hope to do so soon)
is the use of diamond slurries.

Of the bunch, I find the superior unit for maintaining turning gouges to
be the Tormek (for flat blade bevels I prefer the new version of the Lee
Valley Power Sharpening System, for flat blade backs it is the Shapton
Stones).

I'm not interested in trying to convert anyone to any particular system,
but I do feel a need to correct misinformation.

Lyn

Maxprop wrote:
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message


what sharpening system did you end up with? I just came back from

woodcraft

and im leaning towards a low rpm grinder and the one-way system. looks

like

the learning curve is pretty simple.


This was the topic of a thread just completed earlier this week. There are
lots of systems for sharpening, and no doubt some are better than others.
Andrew Hilton gave good advice in recommending a basic 8" grinder with 1"
wide friable aluminum oxide (pink, white, blue, whatever) wheels of 60-80
grit on one side and 120 on the other. I'm currently using a very
inexpensive 6" Delta grinder with those hard gray wheels. They hollow grind
the tools badly, but I've been able to hone them relatively flat with
sanding discs on my disc sander (Andrew apparently uses something similar
for sharpening). The slow, wet wheels, such as the Tormek, are appealing,
but apparently cause rust and a mess, and cost quite a bit more. My point
is, even though my system is probably the worst possible, it does work, and
I've got sharp tools to show for it, even if they aren't pretty. I just
ordered a Delta GR450 grinder today which, with 8" wheels, should lessen the
hollow grinding somewhat.

Do a Google search and read Andrew's answers. Others may have additional
comments.

Max

No "misinformation" given, merely a difference of opinion. Water,
carelessly used in the vicinity of iron/steel _will_ cause rust. Further,
water held in the vicinity of dust-producing areas will collect it as surely
as oil in the same vicinity.

Regardless your oft-repeated resume, there are other ways of removing steel
from a tool, and none are intrinsically "superior."

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I've seen twice now, this comment about Tormeks causing rust and a mess.
Neither you, nor Andrew who started this silliness appear to have ever
owned a Tormek. I have, and I've never had any problem with rust, nor
mess. Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal
dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek.


I'm not interested in trying to convert anyone to any particular system,
but I do feel a need to correct misinformation.

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message

I've seen twice now, this comment about Tormeks causing rust and a mess.
Neither you, nor Andrew who started this silliness appear to have ever
owned a Tormek. I have, and I've never had any problem with rust, nor
mess. Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal
dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek.

T'was not my intent to malign the Tormek or any of the other wet stone
systems. I was simply repeating info I had received from an individual with
far greater experience than my own.

There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.

I have both high speed and low speed dry grinder systems. I will soon be
doing a comparative review of the Woodcut Tru-grind jig and the new
Kelton Sharpening jigs. I also have the Ellsworth jig. I have a Tormek
with all of its jigs. I have two verticle belt sanders (one of which is
mounted to the original Lee Valley Power Sharpening System). I have both
the new and old versions of the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System. I
also have the full range of nonpowered sharpening devices, including
waterstones, diamond stones, oilstones and ceramic stones. About the
only sharpening technique I have not explored (but hope to do so soon)
is the use of diamond slurries.

You have more invested in your sharpening systems/aids than many of us have
in everything we own related to turning. I have no argument with that, but
one point I made to Andrew is that the Tormek basic system is very costly
(roughly $390), and after adding the various jigs and aids one can rack up a
substantial bill, all for the purpose of accomplishing something that some
skilled individuals achieve freehand and inexpensively. To my way of
thinking, the Tormek is one of those luxury items that some choose to
purchase, but many simply cannot afford. There are less expensive means of
grinding and honing tools into usable form.

Of the bunch, I find the superior unit for maintaining turning gouges to
be the Tormek (for flat blade bevels I prefer the new version of the Lee
Valley Power Sharpening System,

Both are costly systems. The question of what I used was posed by an
individual who had just purchased a lathe from Harbor Freight at less than
$200 and HSS tools for $35. Considering his initial investment, it would
seem ill conceived to suggest a Tormek or Lee Valley system. I would love
to have either one, or both. Andrew convinced me that neither, while
desirable, is necessary.

Max

"nor Andrew who started this silliness"

Oh, please, Lyn. You give me far too much credit here. Do a web search,
especially related to knife makers and their own use of the Tormek and other
wet grinders, for far older references to this "silliness" about water +
steel = rust equation.

"appear to have ever owned a Tormek."

Which alludes to a previous post of mine: "I have never specifically used
the Tormek..."
Amazing bit of detective work there, Lyn! But, see below.

"Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal dust in
the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek."

A different mess with different remedies. Unfortunately, the Tormek (yes, I
found a friends Tormek Supergrind 2006 last night and gave it try so I could
say that I have, indeed, used it now although only 4 hours worth) doesn't
keep the metal dust or abrasive particles out of the air entirely with its
water bath. It's easy to see the particles of steel and abrasive coming off
the tool and wheel while grinding and especially while truing the wheel.
It's nothing like a dry grinder but it still creates this mess. I find the
Makita and similar wet grinders with a running water supply over it's
entirety to be far less of a problem IN THIS REGARD. They are worse about
slinging water around though but the Tormek does this to a lesser degree as
well. It's simply unavoidable when you have a spinning wheel and water
combined. Put a white piece of paper up on the other side of the wheel and
grind some tools, Lyn. It's there.

Its still hard to escape the fact that water IS introduced to the steel of
the tool (hence one of the advantages of using a wet grinder in the first
place along with its effect on keeping the wheel wet/cool). The Tormek was
better at keeping the water to a minimum than my Makita (which develops a
sludge which is another mess) was but it still left the tool wet and water
in the area of my other tools. Maybe everything in your shop is stainless
but it's not in mine.


There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.


I completely agree. Unfortunately, it's often what KIND of experience those
persons have as well that forms their opinions. You have yours and I have
mine. I base mine on experience as well. The Tormek is your prefered
system. It isn't mine nor are the wet grinders in general for woodturning.
I love my Makita wet grinder for OTHER work as I don't have time to be
turning it off and on or wiping down my woodturning tools as I work. While
the Tormek is better (but not completely eliminating it) at the water/rust
problem, it is still an issue that I will bring up because it has been
proven to me by my own real tests. You can choose to ignore it but I won't.

- Andrew

Hello Andrew,
I was awaiting your response. My reply is interspersed with yours below

AHilton wrote:
"nor Andrew who started this silliness"

Oh, please, Lyn. You give me far too much credit here. Do a web search,
especially related to knife makers and their own use of the Tormek and other
wet grinders, for far older references to this "silliness" about water +
steel = rust equation.

I'm perfectly comfortable crediting you with it, as it was your comments
that injectd those comments in that thread. It is silliness, particulary
in the context of woodturning tools.

One, many turners work regulary with with green woods. The exposure to
the water in these woods and the tannic and other acids often present
result in far greater opportunity for rusting than the water associated
with a wet wheel. Any residual water from sharpening on a wet wheel is
inconsequential compared to the green wood contact with the tool.

Two, for those working with dry woods, any slight residual water will be
either absorbed by the dry wood shavings, and/or physically wiped away
by the cutting action, and/or baked away by the friction heat generated
by the cutting action.

Three, if one is concerned about rusting, regardless of the water source
(i.e. ambient humidity,green wood, or any residual water from wet
sharpening) then it takes just seconds when done with a turning tool to
wipe briefly with treated rag or buff quickly with a wax coated soft
wheel. Again, if one turns in an environment where rusting is a problem,
rusting will be a problem irrespective of any slight residual water left
on a tool immediately after sharpening on a wet grinder.

Four, with respect to water and rust in the workspace, my experience has
been that the Tormek water trough quite adequately contains the water
used for wet sharpening. The wheel rides in the water bath, and the
vertical wheel alows the water to efficiently flow back into that bath.
I don't have a problem with water in my workspace, though perhaps my
habits are neater than some. If one was concerned about this, an
inexpensive cafeteria tray under the Tormek would be more than adequate
to contain any drippings. Again, the turning environment, with wet
shavings, and atomized extractives presents far more of an issue with
moisture than residual moisture on a wet ground tool.

So yes, I find the rusting argument to be silly in the context of
woodturning. Frankly, I find it silly in the context of knife sharpening
too.

"appear to have ever owned a Tormek."

Which alludes to a previous post of mine: "I have never specifically used
the Tormek..."
Amazing bit of detective work there, Lyn!

So what's the point other than to be snide.

But, see below.

"Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal dust in
the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek."

A different mess with different remedies. Unfortunately, the Tormek (yes, I
found a friends Tormek Supergrind 2006 last night and gave it try so I could
say that I have, indeed, used it now although only 4 hours worth) doesn't
keep the metal dust or abrasive particles out of the air entirely with its
water bath. It's easy to see the particles of steel and abrasive coming off
the tool and wheel while grinding and especially while truing the wheel.
It's nothing like a dry grinder but it still creates this mess.

I'm pleased to see that you acknowledge that the dry grinders make a
mess, you previously only choose to mention the mess you consider
associated with wet grinders, even though you were discussing them in
comparison with your preferred dry techniques. The only conditions I
have ever found a Tormek to cause discernable "spray" is with very small
tools (like less less than 1/4 inch in diameter) that were extended
out of the jig excessively or scrapers that were inadequately supported
and vibrated slightly. With respect to water control, it is better when
the gouge jig is used with the horizontal bar. Any slight spray that
does exist is heavy (i.e., relatively large sized combinations of water
and steel) and with little force, and thus falls quickly to ground (and
usually just back on the wheel), rather than mixing with ambient air and
becoming a respiratory risk and contributing to abrasive grit on
surfaces far away from the sharpening station. Even dry grinders fitted
with vacuum attachments have this problem, and of course, vacuum
attachements have their own major drawbacks with possible sparks setting
the mixture on fire or causing small explosions.


I find the
Makita and similar wet grinders with a running water supply over it's
entirety to be far less of a problem IN THIS REGARD. They are worse about
slinging water around though but the Tormek does this to a lesser degree as
well. It's simply unavoidable when you have a spinning wheel and water
combined. Put a white piece of paper up on the other side of the wheel and
grind some tools, Lyn. It's there.

My Tormek sits in front of a white, hard surfaced "Kitchen Board"
covered wall. It has been located there for years. I don't have such
spray marks appearing on the wall (though I sure do behind the
horizontal platters of my Lee Valley Power Sharpeners). Part of the
reason this is not an issue is the slow speed of Tormek which simply
doesn't accelerate particles with that much force (thus I think the word
"turning" captures the movement more accurately than your choice of the
word "spinning," which implies higher speed). The other reason is the
design of the tools with its vertical direction of water flow, and
bottom mounted tray.

I agree with you about the overspray of the horizontal machines such as
the Makita. With the Tormek, the water has begun draining off the wheel
before ever encountering the tool, and continued to run back down the
wheel (or be absorbed into it). The Makita turns far faster than the
Tormek, and the horizontal platter is poorly suited for water
containment. I don't believe the Makita is an appropriate sharpener for
woodturners, and haven't seen anyone market it for that purpose.

Its still hard to escape the fact that water IS introduced to the steel of
the tool (hence one of the advantages of using a wet grinder in the first
place along with its effect on keeping the wheel wet/cool). The Tormek was
better at keeping the water to a minimum than my Makita (which develops a
sludge which is another mess) was but it still left the tool wet and water
in the area of my other tools. Maybe everything in your shop is stainless
but it's not in mine.

All of this has been addressed above. I can understand why you find
fault with the Makita, particularly for woodturning, but the Tormek and
Makita are very different means to wet grinding, differing in speed,
orientation of the stone and water containment systems, not to mention
wheel composition, jigging systems.



There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.



I completely agree. Unfortunately, it's often what KIND of experience those
persons have as well that forms their opinions.

Yes, we both agree here. Though again, I'd reiterate the point that few
have the comparative experience to make valid comparisons, but even with
the comparative experience, many lack an objective, disciplined, and
intellectually honest approach to evaluation and reportage of their
experiences.

You have yours and I have
mine. I base mine on experience as well.

As above. In point of fact, when you made your initial comments with
respect to the Tormek, you had no experience with one, and even now your
experience is minimal.

The Tormek is your prefered
system.

It is my prefered system for maintaining turning gouges, I listed in my
initial reply to Maxprop (and have more extensively described in earlier
posts and reviews) what my prefered systems are for other purposes. It
would be incorrect to imply I have a singular bias or interest in the
Tormek, rather I have the opportunity to use the sharpening system that
works best FOR ME for the specific task at hand.

It isn't mine nor are the wet grinders in general for woodturning.
I love my Makita wet grinder for OTHER work as I don't have time to be
turning it off

There is no reason to have to turn the Tormek off during breaks from
sharpening. Indeed, the Tormek is a much safer device, because of its
low speed, to be left turning. Frankly, good safety practice would not
be to leave a high speed grinder (or most power tools) running when not
directly attending to them.

and on or wiping down my woodturning tools as I work.

As addresed earlier, there is absolutely no need to be wiping down
freshly sharpened turning tools as you turn. Even if one chose to do so,
the time would be inconsequential for a recreational turner.

While
the Tormek is better (but not completely eliminating it) at the water/rust
problem, it is still an issue that I will bring up because it has been
proven to me by my own real tests. You can choose to ignore it but I won't.

It is not a matter of ignoring anything (such as you did by not
discussing drawbacks to the typical dry grinding system like wheel
explosions,need for respiratory and vision protection, noise, abrasive
grit precipitation about the shop, sparks, and not infrequent problems
with out of balance wheels), rather it is a matter of placing specific
issues in context (as I did above with respect to the rust--if you are
really so concerned about water contacting your tool steel, you'd better
give up turning wood for something like plastic) and objectively
reporting BOTH the advantages and disadvantages of the competing systems
based on both design analysis and experience [something I will be doing
this year in a multi-article discussion of sharpening systems for
woodturners in the periodical More Woodturning]. Your earlier comments
of 2/23 in the grinding wheels thread we "Forget wet grinding" "Wet
grinding is just too messy (rust, water everywhere) and they never work
right (water holes plug, balancing is always off) for the quick and
often sharpening that woodturners deal with." These dismissive comments
were excessive and overgeneralizations based on your experience with the
Makita, and not with a Tormek (which of course has no water holes to
plug, does not have balance problems because of its low speed, does not
strew "water everywhere," and many of us find to consistently "work
right.")

Devotion to sharpening systems seems to reflect a blind religious fervor
in an awful lot of turners. I've never quite understood why. I'm not
sure that objective information will ever be adequate to overcome the
many closed minds on this topic, but I do know that objective
information, reasonable design analysis, and reasonably controlled
comparisons of different systems can be achieved. Andrew, you in
particular are capable of both appreciating such information and
providing it, much as I understand you are trying to do with respect to
LDD. I look forward to reading of your efforts along these lines.

Lyn

Hello Max.
A reply interspesed with some of yours. You may also want to read my
reply to Andrew a little later in this thread.

Maxprop wrote:

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message


I've seen twice now, this comment about Tormeks causing rust and a mess.
Neither you, nor Andrew who started this silliness appear to have ever
owned a Tormek. I have, and I've never had any problem with rust, nor
mess. Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal
dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek.


T'was not my intent to malign the Tormek or any of the other wet stone
systems. I was simply repeating info I had received from an individual with
far greater experience than my own.

Yes, but you are maligning the Tormek by repeating such information, and
by so doing representing it as worthy of repetition. I was aware of
Andrew's earlier remarks and at that time just didn't care to muster
then energy to properly refute them. It was seeing, in your post, how
failure to refute such misinformation allowed it to become cited with
authority, that made me feel I had to respond.


There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.

I have both high speed and low speed dry grinder systems. I will soon be
doing a comparative review of the Woodcut Tru-grind jig and the new
Kelton Sharpening jigs. I also have the Ellsworth jig. I have a Tormek
with all of its jigs. I have two verticle belt sanders (one of which is
mounted to the original Lee Valley Power Sharpening System). I have both
the new and old versions of the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System. I
also have the full range of nonpowered sharpening devices, including
waterstones, diamond stones, oilstones and ceramic stones. About the
only sharpening technique I have not explored (but hope to do so soon)
is the use of diamond slurries.


You have more invested in your sharpening systems/aids than many of us have
in everything we own related to turning. I have no argument with that, but
one point I made to Andrew is that the Tormek basic system is very costly
(roughly $390), and after adding the various jigs and aids one can rack up a
substantial bill, all for the purpose of accomplishing something that some
skilled individuals achieve freehand and inexpensively. To my way of
thinking, the Tormek is one of those luxury items that some choose to
purchase, but many simply cannot afford. There are less expensive means of
grinding and honing tools into usable form.

There are several issues here. Let me take the expense issue first. I
listed the sharpening systems I have to make clear that I have the hands
on experience to comparatively comment on the various systems
knowledgably and without bias for the one I owned or could afford. I
have a lot of sharpening systems for a number of reasons, not the least
are the many reviews and investigations I have conducted in the past and
continue to conduct. Anyone who knows of my hand plane studies knows
that I sharpen literally over a hundred times in a single day of
investigation.

Now as to relative cost. The typical Tormek set up for woodturning is
more expensive than many dry grinding systems, but perhaps not as much
as many initially believe.

Let's compare a Tormek ($390) with the gouge and cutter jig ($65), the
multitool jig ($50), the horizontal tool rest ($30) and the stone grader
($20)--I've rounded off slightly in both directions to make the math
easier--this comes to $555. With this set, you can do a precision
sharpen all gouges, all scrapers (including small hollowing tool
scrapers) and all skews (both radiused and straight). You also, by
default with the basic package, will have the means to sharpen handplane
and chisel blades. You will be putting a 10 inch hollow grind on all of
these tools.

Now lets consider some comparable abilities in a dry grinder. I'll use
an 8 inch grinder as reference, as 10 inch dry grinders are basically
out of reach for recreational turners.

Slow speed dry grinders run from approximately $125 to over $400 for a
top notch Baldor. Let's split the difference and say $200 for a
reasonably good 8 inch dry grinder since that is what both Craft
Supplies and Packard are choosing to offer right now. Everybody, pretty
much admits that the stock wheels are inadequate, so now we have the
cost of two wheels, running from $40-65 (white aluminum) to $100 a piece
(for blue ceramic), so again, allow me to round this off to a typical
cost of $100 dollars for the desirable replacement wheels. Then their is
the issue of balancing. Almost everyone who has used the Oneway balancer
with their turning wheels have reported what a meaninful improvement
they have made in performance (and Oneway reports longevity in bearing
life as well), so now we add another $50. To come close to the precision
sharpening of the Tormek jigs, let's use the commonly purchased Oneway
Wolverine System which is $80 for the base system, plus $50 for the
Vari-grind gouge attachment, plus $25 for the skew attachment. Finally,
we need some sort of dresser for the stones, diamond versions running
form roughly $20 to $40, so lets split the difference and go with a $30
dollar cost. Finally, if one wants the same range of capabilities as the
specified Tormek jigs, one will need to add the Woodcut Scraper Holder
and Stem Sharpeners, which adds another $25. So add this all together
and one gets $560 (now honestly, I didn't total this up till right now
and had expected it to still come in under the Tormek).

So, we have almost identical costs for a generally equal range of
sharpening jigs (though with the dry grinder you won't have the
precision handplane and chisel jig and the honing wheel that comes with
the basic Tormek). So where is the savings? What the dry grinder
arrangement does is make it a little easier to obtain these parts
incrementally, but to get to the same point, there is no savings. It is
possible to low ball the grinder (but at a likely cost in grinder life
and performance), but even then one is only going to be talking about a
matter of $75 dollars or so from the Tormek. So I submit that a dry
grinding system does not assure a less expensive means towards a
comprehensive grinding system. Indeed, one could actually spend much
more if one based it on a top of the line Baldor. Finally, the Tormek
offer a further range of additional jigs to allow the Tormek to
precision grind a wider range of tools.

Then there is the issue of free hand vs precision jigs. Can some folks
get a servicable edge from free-hand grinding, absolutely. Will a
precision jig allow for an optimal geometry to be established on the
tool and maintained with minimal future removal of steel, I find the
evidence for this to be overwhelming. I have long maintained, and
continued to find evidence to support the fact that tool life is
considerably extended by use of a precision jigging system. You simply
are better able to repeat the original geometry and thus remove less
tool steel. Jerry Glaser, who has surely sharpened more gouges than 99.9
percent of us says so,as do a number of turners who have abilities to
both free hand and jig hold their tools. David Ellsworth, whose name is
well associated with his version of the swept back grind, has a great
tape demonstrating how to free hand his grind, but also writes that when
he now uses a jig (granted the one he designed) to maintain the grind
"everytime." So yes, you can free hand grind tools into a usable form,
but sadly it is often those novice turners who have the least skills to
do so that are most apt to attempt that in a false belief it saves them
money (maybe in the short run, but not when you consider tool life).

So I will grant you that the Tormek is expensive at initial purchase,
but I don't think it is fair to consider it a luxury purchase when
compared to comparable abilities in a dry grinder and factoring in tool
life. Irrespective of the specific grinding system, I strongly suggest
new turners invest in at least a minimal jigging system for their
gouges--it will both save your tools, and decrease your frustrations.




Of the bunch, I find the superior unit for maintaining turning gouges to
be the Tormek (for flat blade bevels I prefer the new version of the Lee
Valley Power Sharpening System,


Both are costly systems. The question of what I used was posed by an
individual who had just purchased a lathe from Harbor Freight at less than
$200 and HSS tools for $35. Considering his initial investment, it would
seem ill conceived to suggest a Tormek or Lee Valley system. I would love
to have either one, or both. Andrew convinced me that neither, while
desirable, is necessary.

It is true, neither are necessary, and if you reread my post, you will
find I never argued that you or the original poster should purchase the
Tormek. The content of my post was to refute the misinformation and
place the choice of a sharpening system in a greater context. I ended
with the statement that I'm not trying to convert anyone to any
particular system. Instead, I am attempting to help individuals more
fully consider the factual information relating to all their
possibilities (including a vertical belt sander) when choosing to
obtain or expand their sharpening system

Lyn

Max

Probably the only real drawback to Tormek sharpening is the shortage of
water out southwest. At any moment, sprinkling lawns and filling Tormek
cups might be declared illegal in Ca. I suggest using a Tormek
primarily, with a dry grinder and flat stone for both backup sharpening
as well as grinding. Be sure to use all that Tormek spray on your lawns.

It's not easy, but I _am trying to conform by posting only serious and
pertinent info that doesn't offend anyone. Being boring is a different
problem yet to overcome. Arch

Hi Arch,
You know what's coming.

I had considered this, but just didn't want to belabor Andrew with any
additional points. I've been conducting some extensive experimentation
with carbonated beverages as a replacement for water when wet grinding.
Specifically I've found Traditional CocaCola to work best for initial
sharpening at 220. The Trad.Coke works well to strip any oils and
extractives from the blades or gouges (it's not as efficient removing
built up CA on the flutes, so I may switch to Jolt Cola, but only after
I refine the research methodology)and reduces glazing of the waterstone.
I then keep a second trough filled with Diet Sierra Mist ("the zero
calorie Lemon-Lime Soda") for refined sharpening after grading the
Tormek stone to 1000 with the Tormek Stone Grader. The Diet Sierra Mist,
with the effervescent action from its carbonation cleanses the pores of
the stone and the lemon-lime leaves the blade squeaky clean as well as
vanishingly sharp. I had tried Mountain Dew, but the residual "dew"
contributed to rusting, consistent with Andrew's concerns. Sierra Mist,
however, just vanishes as quick as a mountain, what can I say, "mist."

I've been meaning to write this up as a formal investigative report (and
am indeed now 37 pages into it), but I've been holding off until I get
the final procedures worked out for the storage of the solutions. The
problem has not been sealing the troughs, as I have developed some
cryogenically treated titanium sealed lids for the troughs and store
them in the refrigerator. No, the problem has been that my dog has taken
to nosing open the refrigerator at night, breaking open the troughs and
lapping them dry. Oh well, I guess that's not all bad as at least he is
refining his lapping technique and getting a full compliment of iron and
minerals. Still, it has been holding up my report on this breakthrough
in wet sharpening.

Lyn

P.S. Hold off on your Pepsi and CocaCola stock purchases until I give
you the inside information on when the report will be out. Not just
turners, but Wall Street is going to go wild with the meaning of all this.

Arch wrote:
Probably the only real drawback to Tormek sharpening is the shortage of
water out southwest. At any moment, sprinkling lawns and filling Tormek
cups might be declared illegal in Ca. I suggest using a Tormek
primarily, with a dry grinder and flat stone for both backup sharpening
as well as grinding. Be sure to use all that Tormek spray on your lawns.

It's not easy, but I _am trying to conform by posting only serious and
pertinent info that doesn't offend anyone. Being boring is a different
problem yet to overcome. Arch

Lyn J. Mangiameli wrote: (clip) P.S. Hold off on your Pepsi and CocaCola
stock purchases until I give you the inside information on when the report
will be out. Not just turners, but Wall Street is going to go wild with the
meaning of all this.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would like to hold off, but I am worried that by not buying these stocks
based on the above information, I could wind up in a similar position to
Martha Stewart.

Wouldn't not buying a stock, based on the advice of insiders like you, be
equivalent to selling it, under the same circumstances?

With the risk of expanding our greatly expanding posts in this thread and
alienating even those readers that continue to delve into them, I'll attempt
to comment on the issues that you raise. I'd like to simply defend my
position about the rust problem with the use of wet grinders in general
which was the issue you had commented on before expanding into the
ever-increasing range of Tormek-fervor that you evidently hold. THAT is the
issue as you first mentioned. I'm not sure why you feel someone's (and not
just mine) opinion and experience is cause for calling it silly (several
times). I had not specifically mentioned the Tormek except as in relation to
the original poster mentioning it as an option and as an example of a wet
grinder. You've decided that the Tormek brand of wet grinder is at the heart
of this debate. Fair enough.

I'll try to be brief g .... You knew better....

I was awaiting your response. My reply is interspersed with yours below


As I was awaiting yours to mine. I'll not discount your opinions and
experience as you have discounted mine. I feel you are honestly trying to
report your experiences in an objective manner. I hope that you will come
to realize that there might be other opinions based on experiences different
(or perhaps the same) as yours. What you may discount as a non-issue may,
perhaps, be an issue for others. You, as much as you might think and try
to have, don't have all of the bases covered in your shop.


One, many turners work regulary with with green woods. The exposure to
the water in these woods and the tannic and other acids often present
result in far greater opportunity for rusting than the water associated
with a wet wheel. Any residual water from sharpening on a wet wheel is
inconsequential compared to the green wood contact with the tool.


Poor argument but one that you frequently make. You're trying to say that
since there are other, potential, sources for moisture, then the wet
grinding system is blameless ("inconsequential"). For the record, I do
agree that there are other potential sources for moisture in woodturning.
Doing what one can to minimize that, especially when working with steels
(althought some steels are better than others) and wood is desirable. If I
can keep my grinding system from spewing (to whatever degree) moisture into
the air or onto my tools, wood, equipment then I will.


Two, for those working with dry woods, any slight residual water will be
either absorbed by the dry wood shavings, and/or physically wiped away
by the cutting action, and/or baked away by the friction heat generated
by the cutting action.


On the tip of the tool? Sure. There's more to a tool than it's tip, Lyn.
Again, this isn't all about the tool either. It's about the wood, other
equipment and also the wet grinder itself. Oh, yes. Many wet grinders
including older Tormek's that I know of, if you want a specific and relevant
example of a wet grinder, (I can't verify this with the new Tormek I tried
last night ... anyone?) had a problem with some of it's components (washers,
bolts/screws, etc.) that weren't stainless and had rusting problems with the
grinder itself. This is also what I was talking about (in addition to the
tools and other equipment) when I said in my original post about rusting
problems with wet grinders in general.


Three, if one is concerned about rusting, regardless of the water source
(i.e. ambient humidity,green wood, or any residual water from wet
sharpening) then it takes just seconds when done with a turning tool to
wipe briefly with treated rag or buff quickly with a wax coated soft


This reflects the way YOU work. Unfortunately, this is another problem that
many people have and it is that they assume everyone works (or in this case
turns/sharpens) the same as themselves. Often, I will not move my hands
from their position on the tool from lathe to grinder and back again. I'm
certainly not going to mess with having to wipe the tool down between steps.
I suppose I could install a powered cloth buffing mop so that I could touch
the tool against it before returning to the lathe ... but WHY? Why go to
the extra expense and trouble to do that? It's not efficient to ME. Maybe
to others or yourself.


wheel. Again, if one turns in an environment where rusting is a problem,
rusting will be a problem irrespective of any slight residual water left
on a tool immediately after sharpening on a wet grinder.

Yet again, you're taking the "blame" off what you're arguing for and trying
to put it onto something else (ie the "environment"). Unfortunately, water
is not the only thing left on a tool after the use of some (I'm including
this as I've not tested every conceivable wet grinder as I don't think Lyn
has either and he apparently doesn't like generalizations getting in the way
of a preferred tool) wet grinding systems.... the Tormek included at times.
On the Makita, it's a terrible problem with the slurry of
water/abrasive/steel particles attaching themselves to the tool. This has
to be cleaned off to use it (unless you don't mind this stuff on your
turnings). I noticed this afternoon on the Tormek (I got 2 extra hours
usage on it and have sharpened a total of 18 turning tools 6 times; 20 plane
irons 2 times; 1 nasty set of planer blades once; 8 bench chisels 2 times; a
double axe that hadn't been sharpened for 25 years 1 time; 5 knifes 2 times
and some mower blades several times) that it does the same thing. Slightly
so but still noticable. It's most noticable when you don't change the water
or clean it out and you don't really put much pressure on the tool to clear
it off as it rotates. This type of thing would come under the "mess" in my
post to the original thread poster. YOU may not have this problem, Lyn, but
I do. I suspect I'm not the only one either.


Four, with respect to water and rust in the workspace, my experience has
been that the Tormek water trough quite adequately contains the water
used for wet sharpening. The wheel rides in the water bath, and the
vertical wheel alows the water to efficiently flow back into that bath.
I don't have a problem with water in my workspace, though perhaps my
habits are neater than some. If one was concerned about this, an

And there it is. YOUR experience is that the water isn't a problem getting
out of wheel or bath. You make a slight mention that it could be your
working conditions ("habits") and one could infer that you might think that
others' conditions are different. Very good. Others' conditions may very
well be the same as yours or not. Mine obviously were as I did have slight
problems with water splattering. This is just not acceptable to me and my
work environment.


inexpensive cafeteria tray under the Tormek would be more than adequate
to contain any drippings. Again, the turning environment, with wet
shavings, and atomized extractives presents far more of an issue with
moisture than residual moisture on a wet ground tool.


Unfortunately, a tray of any kind under the Tormek (or most wet grinders if
I should be so bold as to be generalizing it as I have had experience with
the Grizzly, Draper 31235, Sealey SM52 and of course the Makita) isn't
going to be of much help in what I'm talking about. It SPRAYS the water and
not just drips it off the machine. Frankly, I noticed no water puddling
around the base of any wet grinder I've used unless it has a broken bath tub
or tube.


So yes, I find the rusting argument to be silly in the context of
woodturning. Frankly, I find it silly in the context of knife sharpening
too.


Tell that to the knife sharpeners. I don't see how you can simply dismiss
and discount others' experience. If you have time to clean your tools off
(such as when sharpening a planer blade or even a bench chisel) then it's
not much of an issue. If, with turners or knife makers, where you are
sharpening often and don't have the time to spend cleaning your steel then
it IS an issue.

"appear to have ever owned a Tormek."

Which alludes to a previous post of mine: "I have never specifically
used
the Tormek..."
Amazing bit of detective work there, Lyn!

So what's the point other than to be snide.


No other point. Just being snide. You made it sound like you masterfully
figured out that neither of us had specifically used the Tormek machine in a
derogatory, superior (ie "snide") manner when, in fact, we forthrightly said
so before that. That was my response.


I'm pleased to see that you acknowledge that the dry grinders make a
mess, you previously only choose to mention the mess you consider
associated with wet grinders, even though you were discussing them in
comparison with your preferred dry techniques. The only conditions I


Well, of course dry grinders make a mess. Every grinding system (I'll
restrict myself to the topic at hand here) has it's strengths and
weaknesses. I've tried to make that abundantly clear in as many posts as I
possibly can. However, I can't or simply won't in deference to trying to
keep messages clear and under 100k spell out every conceivable pro and con
of everything people want to know about.

Please provide me with the post or portion thereof where I was comparing the
wet grinders with the dry grinding setups. I can't find it but that doesn't
mean it's not there. I'll gladly refer to it if you can find it. Maxprop
asked me about the Delta wet grinding machines and said that he couldn't
afford the Tormek. I told him what I thought and specifically said that I
had no direct experience (then) with those specific machines. I related
what I had learned from experience with the wet grinders I have used.
Nowhere in there did I mention any preference for anything else. In a
previous post in the same thread, I mentioned my experience and preference
for other grinding techniques (plural). This was in no way in relation to
the wet grinders or their own issues.

I didn't figure it was necessary to interject into a directed query and
response for one subject in one post concerning wet grinders with commentary
regarding the pros and cons of all other possible grinding equipment,
techniques or systems such as the "dry techniques". IF Maxprop's question
had anything to do with a comparison between the two approaches, then I
should have and quite possibly would have mentioned the dry grinding
(especially the grinding wheels) pitfalls as well. Should I do that for you
now, Lyn? Should I ammend that post so it'll make it "fair" for you and
others even though it had nothing to do with dry grinding and ALL to do with
the wet grinding machines? It doesn't seem right to me as I'd like to be as
direct with my postings as possible (albeit all too lengthy!) but I'm
certainly willing to make amends on this one if it'll make people happy. I
have all kinds of gripes with dry wheel grinding too (as you should find if
you look in the archives here or in other common online forums for
woodworking/woodturning) and will list those that I have personal experience
with.


have ever found a Tormek to cause discernable "spray" is with very small
tools (like less less than 1/4 inch in diameter) that were extended
out of the jig excessively or scrapers that were inadequately supported
and vibrated slightly. With respect to water control, it is better when
the gouge jig is used with the horizontal bar. Any slight spray that
does exist is heavy (i.e., relatively large sized combinations of water
and steel) and with little force, and thus falls quickly to ground (and
usually just back on the wheel), rather than mixing with ambient air and
becoming a respiratory risk and contributing to abrasive grit on
surfaces far away from the sharpening station.

I tried this out this afternoon. I found that the "sharper" the tool is and
the further back on the bevel you are sharpening (such as on a detail
shallow fluted gouge) or with a long planer blade, the more spray I get.
Smaller diameter tools spray more but then I sweep them back more so I don't
know which is the cause. The horizontal bar does, indeed, help. However, I
did still find enough spray with this machine in general to list it with the
other vertical wet grinders as being "too much" for me.


Even dry grinders fitted
with vacuum attachments have this problem, and of course, vacuum
attachements have their own major drawbacks with possible sparks setting
the mixture on fire or causing small explosions.


Absolutely. I've never experienced the explosion problem nor have I heard
reliable reports of it so I can't comment on that.


My Tormek sits in front of a white, hard surfaced "Kitchen Board"
covered wall. It has been located there for years. I don't have such
spray marks appearing on the wall (though I sure do behind the
horizontal platters of my Lee Valley Power Sharpeners). Part of the
reason this is not an issue is the slow speed of Tormek which simply
doesn't accelerate particles with that much force (thus I think the word
"turning" captures the movement more accurately than your choice of the
word "spinning," which implies higher speed). The other reason is the
design of the tools with its vertical direction of water flow, and
bottom mounted tray.


Call it what you want ... turning, spinning, rotating or whatever. It's
moving in a circular motion and that introduces forces (to various degrees)
to power particles out from it. Use whatever terminology that fits your
argument.

I don't know what's different in the setups or use of this machine (Tormek)
in particular and the other wet grinders in general, but I always get spray
with these machines. Like I said before, I simply hung some white papers
behind the unit to see if there was any spray. Some, like the Tormek, is
small but significant enough for my comments all along. Others, like the
Makita, are too much for my turning environment.


All of this has been addressed above. I can understand why you find
fault with the Makita, particularly for woodturning, but the Tormek and
Makita are very different means to wet grinding, differing in speed,
orientation of the stone and water containment systems, not to mention
wheel composition, jigging systems.


Yes. Absolutely. They are different machines. Personally, I think the
Tormek and other really slow speed grinders like it are far too slow
(another con that I didn't originally mention among others for brevity) for
realistic use. I appreciate the speed of the Makita when sharpening knicked
blades and don't mind it for general sharpening (other than turning tools of
course) as I like to get done and get back to work. The speed causes other
problems but I feel they are offset in this environment of MINE.


Yes, we both agree here. Though again, I'd reiterate the point that few
have the comparative experience to make valid comparisons, but even with
the comparative experience, many lack an objective, disciplined, and
intellectually honest approach to evaluation and reportage of their
experiences.


I'll not be mean.


As above. In point of fact, when you made your initial comments with
respect to the Tormek, you had no experience with one, and even now your
experience is minimal.


True. Very true. With more experience with the machine give me better
results in regard to the water/rust/mess issue? I think not but I don't
want to make such a hasty conclusion. g


There is no reason to have to turn the Tormek off during breaks from
sharpening. Indeed, the Tormek is a much safer device, because of its
low speed, to be left turning. Frankly, good safety practice would not
be to leave a high speed grinder (or most power tools) running when not
directly attending to them.


That's just not practical in many real-world situations. Theoretically
safer? Sure. But if it's safe to have running for a minute then it should
be safe to have running for extended periods (given no heat problems or
simply accidents happening where you fall into it). The same could be said
for heaters, airconditioners, radios, dust collectors, air filters, lathes
and a multitude of other things in the shop that are running. I leave my
grinder/sharpening/honing station running the same time as my lathe. If I
can avoid turning them off, I do while maintaining *reasonable* safety.


and on or wiping down my woodturning tools as I work.

As addresed earlier, there is absolutely no need to be wiping down
freshly sharpened turning tools as you turn. Even if one chose to do so,
the time would be inconsequential for a recreational turner.


Maybe for the turning that YOU do but not for everyone. Again, you are
assuming your readership and what they want to do. I know I certainly don't
want any water on my miniature turnings. The water droplet alone is bigger
than most of them. I know I don't want any water on a freshly shellac'd
piece that I'm taking the final cut on another adjacent part of. I know I
don't want any water on that mahogany chair spindle I just made either from
the tip of the tool (discussed far above) or from the rest of the tool
falling on it. While you may see recreational turners as unneeding of time
saving devices, I don't always see that (jigs, grinders of any kind, quick
finishes, etc.). I feel like they should be given the same advice, with
explained caveats, as anyone. Just because YOU don't know of any reasons,
doesn't mean there aren't any. Or do you discount these reasons too?


It is not a matter of ignoring anything (such as you did by not
discussing drawbacks to the typical dry grinding system like wheel
explosions,need for respiratory and vision protection, noise, abrasive
grit precipitation about the shop, sparks, and not infrequent problems
with out of balance wheels), rather it is a matter of placing specific

Explained above. The discussion that you are having such a problem with had
nothing to do with a comparison with wet vs dry grinding hence no need to
provide the details of a comparison in that post. The guy simply wanted to
know what I thought about the Delta and Tormek wet grinding machines.

issues in context (as I did above with respect to the rust--if you are
really so concerned about water contacting your tool steel, you'd better
give up turning wood for something like plastic)

I AM concerned with my expensive and personal tools that I buy and/or make.
You're damn right! I'm not independently wealthy and try to take care of my
tools. When an issue arises, such as rusting, I take it seriously. I do
turn plastic.... and antler, horn, stone and a multitude of other things.
This is just another example of your dismissive attitude.


and objectively
reporting BOTH the advantages and disadvantages of the competing systems
based on both design analysis and experience


Lyn, this is an informal group with, often, informal questions and
discussions. There is no mandate to conform to the scientific method in our
discussions. Even IF (see the multiple times I've explained it above) the
original discussion that this thread has give way to had been a comparison
of competing strategies in grinding tools (which it wasn't, of course), I'm
likely not to give an exhaustive analysis of everything concerning it. I'll
try the best that I can and with what I believe is the questioners' (Maxprop
in this case) intention to get an answer about but that doesn't mean I'm
going to be as complete, objective, or distant all of the time as if I were
doing one of my studies. I'm not going to respond to a question such as was
asked of me by Maxprop in the same way or style as I'm going to respond to
the 3M R&D department when they ask for technical details of a project or
the way I'm going to write an article. It's simply not going to happen
because these are different places. I've certainly had people on this and
other woodworking/woodturning forums contact me directly before in order to
discuss technical details and that's been fine. That's a different context
entirely and I have responded in kind and in the style befitting that
environment. This doesn't mean I won't try to be accurate, truthful and
complete in any context.


Far too often, a response has nothing to do with what the questioner has
asked about. It has to do with what the responder wants to relate to the
group. Much like this thread you started in defense of the Tormek. You've
brought up so many sub-subjects, offshoots and attacks that (what I think
is) your main point of "The Tormek doesn't have the problems, especially the
rust problem, that Andrew says it does" is getting lost.


[something I will be doing
this year in a multi-article discussion of sharpening systems for
woodturners in the periodical More Woodturning]. Your earlier comments

Ahhh, yes. I was wondering if there was an article or one of your "reviews"
behind this. I'll not go on as this isn't the place or thread to discuss it
here.


of 2/23 in the grinding wheels thread we "Forget wet grinding" "Wet
grinding is just too messy (rust, water everywhere) and they never work
right (water holes plug, balancing is always off) for the quick and
often sharpening that woodturners deal with." These dismissive comments
were excessive and overgeneralizations based on your experience with the
Makita, and not with a Tormek (which of course has no water holes to
plug, does not have balance problems because of its low speed, does not
strew "water everywhere," and many of us find to consistently "work
right.")

As I explained further above, I have more experience with wet grinders than
just the Makita. I specifically said to Maxprop that I had no experience
with the Delta's he mentioned or the Tormek and went on with that caveat. I
feel that I've not made an overgeneralization based on my experience with
the other, very similar, wet grinders and now, with my experience with the
Tormek over the last 8 hours (I went back after seeing your latest response
and did more tests). Yes, I did combine problems between several different
wet grinding machines but since that (and this) is still an informal and
non-scientific forum, I feel comfortable in doing so. I'm sorry if you and
your Tormek feel slighted. The overall advice that I gave to Maxprop was
that the wet grinders are NOT necessary and are NOT worth the price for
simply woodturning tools. I stand by that advice completely.



Devotion to sharpening systems seems to reflect a blind religious fervor
in an awful lot of turners. I've never quite understood why. I'm not
sure that objective information will ever be adequate to overcome the
many closed minds on this topic, but I do know that objective
information, reasonable design analysis, and reasonably controlled
comparisons of different systems can be achieved. Andrew, you in


I don't agree. It's not enough to dismiss "feelings" and experienced gained
over years simply because you've (a general term ... don't get in a bunch)
done one of your "reviews" or written an article or performed a "reasonable
design analysis". Objective information isn't the end-all beat-all thing to
have in deciding what's personally favorable to someone. A certain level of
understanding and information about a particular product or procedure or
"system" is desirable and helpful but won't ... shouldn't ... be the
deciding factor at all times.

I can certainly appreciate the effort, time, and technicals of performing a
design analysis, comparisons and studies of all sorts, I can also see their
shortcomings. Magazine reviews are nice. Studies are great. But most of
them tend to underscore, to varying degrees, the SUBJECTIVE of the person
performing them rather than allowing anyone to base a definitive conclusion
on them. I do appreciate the efforts you put toward your "reviews" and the
manner in which you expose them if nothing else.


particular are capable of both appreciating such information and
providing it, much as I understand you are trying to do with respect to
LDD. I look forward to reading of your efforts along these lines.


Thank you but I feel it's going to be far more informative in reading the
efforts of those performing the study themselves. Something I learned from
a mentor "It's not the study and it's results that are important ... it's
the repeatability of it."

You can have the last word. I can't think of any more ways to defend my own
experiences and the advice I was asked for and gave.



- Andrew

Leo Lichtman wrote:
Lyn J. Mangiameli wrote: (clip) P.S. Hold off on your Pepsi and CocaCola
stock purchases until I give you the inside information on when the report
will be out. Not just turners, but Wall Street is going to go wild with the
meaning of all this.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would like to hold off, but I am worried that by not buying these stocks
based on the above information, I could wind up in a similar position to
Martha Stewart.

Wouldn't not buying a stock, based on the advice of insiders like you, be
equivalent to selling it, under the same circumstances?

Leo Lichtman wrote:

Lyn J. Mangiameli wrote: (clip) P.S. Hold off on your Pepsi and CocaCola
stock purchases until I give you the inside information on when the report
will be out. Not just turners, but Wall Street is going to go wild with the
meaning of all this.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would like to hold off, but I am worried that by not buying these stocks
based on the above information, I could wind up in a similar position to
Martha Stewart.

Wouldn't not buying a stock, based on the advice of insiders like you, be
equivalent to selling it, under the same circumstances?

Lyn

Will Tormek work with beer or white wine?-)

Arch wrote:

Probably the only real drawback to Tormek sharpening is the shortage of
water out southwest. At any moment, sprinkling lawns and filling Tormek
cups might be declared illegal in Ca. I suggest using a Tormek
primarily, with a dry grinder and flat stone for both backup sharpening
as well as grinding. Be sure to use all that Tormek spray on your lawns.

It's not easy, but I _am trying to conform by posting only serious and
pertinent info that doesn't offend anyone. Being boring is a different
problem yet to overcome. Arch

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Lyn
=====================
And after all that, I might go back to sharpening on a concrete sidewalk
......... if I had one !!!

Ken Moon

But Ken,
would you use the concrete dry or keep a hose running on it? I won't ask
if the concrete should be grey, white, pink, blue or fuschia.

:-)

Lyn

Ken Moon wrote:

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Lyn

=====================
And after all that, I might go back to sharpening on a concrete sidewalk
........ if I had one !!!

Ken Moon

No no no no. Asphalt is preferable over concrete.

- Andrew


"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
link.net...
But Ken,
would you use the concrete dry or keep a hose running on it? I won't ask
if the concrete should be grey, white, pink, blue or fuschia.

:-)

Lyn

Ken Moon wrote:

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Lyn

=====================
And after all that, I might go back to sharpening on a concrete sidewalk
........ if I had one !!!

Ken Moon

"AHilton" wrote in message

Maxprop
asked me about the Delta wet grinding machines and said that he couldn't
afford the Tormek.

Actually I can, but prefer not to do so, if unnecessary. And I agree with
your contention that a Tormek is not a necessary, if perhaps desirable, part
of one's overall tool/knife/blade sharpening system.

I, like most new turners, am experiencing the sticker shock associated with
the landslide effect. The lathe is the tip of the iceberg in terms of cost.
Sorby tools, a Vicmarc chuck, a hollowing system, and I'm feeling inclined
to pull in the reins a bit on expenditures. A usable, effective sharpening
system that doesn't cost $390 plus jigs and accessories has real appeal.

Max

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
news:Nvs0c.15411

Hello Max.
A reply interspesed with some of yours. You may also want to read my
reply to Andrew a little later in this thread.

Maxprop wrote:

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message


I've seen twice now, this comment about Tormeks causing rust and a mess.
Neither you, nor Andrew who started this silliness appear to have ever
owned a Tormek. I have, and I've never had any problem with rust, nor
mess. Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal
dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek.


T'was not my intent to malign the Tormek or any of the other wet stone
systems. I was simply repeating info I had received from an individual
with
far greater experience than my own.

Yes, but you are maligning the Tormek by repeating such information, and
by so doing representing it as worthy of repetition. I was aware of
Andrew's earlier remarks and at that time just didn't care to muster
then energy to properly refute them. It was seeing, in your post, how
failure to refute such misinformation allowed it to become cited with
authority, that made me feel I had to respond.


There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.

I have both high speed and low speed dry grinder systems. I will soon be
doing a comparative review of the Woodcut Tru-grind jig and the new
Kelton Sharpening jigs. I also have the Ellsworth jig. I have a Tormek
with all of its jigs. I have two verticle belt sanders (one of which is
mounted to the original Lee Valley Power Sharpening System). I have both
the new and old versions of the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System. I
also have the full range of nonpowered sharpening devices, including
waterstones, diamond stones, oilstones and ceramic stones. About the
only sharpening technique I have not explored (but hope to do so soon)
is the use of diamond slurries.


You have more invested in your sharpening systems/aids than many of us
have
in everything we own related to turning. I have no argument with that,
but
one point I made to Andrew is that the Tormek basic system is very
costly
(roughly $390), and after adding the various jigs and aids one can rack
up a
substantial bill, all for the purpose of accomplishing something that
some
skilled individuals achieve freehand and inexpensively. To my way of
thinking, the Tormek is one of those luxury items that some choose to
purchase, but many simply cannot afford. There are less expensive means
of
grinding and honing tools into usable form.

There are several issues here. Let me take the expense issue first. I
listed the sharpening systems I have to make clear that I have the hands
on experience to comparatively comment on the various systems
knowledgably and without bias for the one I owned or could afford. I
have a lot of sharpening systems for a number of reasons, not the least
are the many reviews and investigations I have conducted in the past and
continue to conduct. Anyone who knows of my hand plane studies knows
that I sharpen literally over a hundred times in a single day of
investigation.

Now as to relative cost. The typical Tormek set up for woodturning is
more expensive than many dry grinding systems, but perhaps not as much
as many initially believe.

Let's compare a Tormek ($390) with the gouge and cutter jig ($65), the
multitool jig ($50), the horizontal tool rest ($30) and the stone grader
($20)--I've rounded off slightly in both directions to make the math
easier--this comes to $555. With this set, you can do a precision
sharpen all gouges, all scrapers (including small hollowing tool
scrapers) and all skews (both radiused and straight). You also, by
default with the basic package, will have the means to sharpen handplane
and chisel blades. You will be putting a 10 inch hollow grind on all of
these tools.

Now lets consider some comparable abilities in a dry grinder. I'll use
an 8 inch grinder as reference, as 10 inch dry grinders are basically
out of reach for recreational turners.

Slow speed dry grinders run from approximately $125 to over $400 for a
top notch Baldor. Let's split the difference and say $200 for a
reasonably good 8 inch dry grinder since that is what both Craft
Supplies and Packard are choosing to offer right now. Everybody, pretty
much admits that the stock wheels are inadequate, so now we have the
cost of two wheels, running from $40-65 (white aluminum) to $100 a piece
(for blue ceramic), so again, allow me to round this off to a typical
cost of $100 dollars for the desirable replacement wheels. Then their is
the issue of balancing. Almost everyone who has used the Oneway balancer
with their turning wheels have reported what a meaninful improvement
they have made in performance (and Oneway reports longevity in bearing
life as well), so now we add another $50. To come close to the precision
sharpening of the Tormek jigs, let's use the commonly purchased Oneway
Wolverine System which is $80 for the base system, plus $50 for the
Vari-grind gouge attachment, plus $25 for the skew attachment. Finally,
we need some sort of dresser for the stones, diamond versions running
form roughly $20 to $40, so lets split the difference and go with a $30
dollar cost. Finally, if one wants the same range of capabilities as the
specified Tormek jigs, one will need to add the Woodcut Scraper Holder
and Stem Sharpeners, which adds another $25. So add this all together
and one gets $560 (now honestly, I didn't total this up till right now
and had expected it to still come in under the Tormek).

So, we have almost identical costs for a generally equal range of
sharpening jigs (though with the dry grinder you won't have the
precision handplane and chisel jig and the honing wheel that comes with
the basic Tormek). So where is the savings? What the dry grinder
arrangement does is make it a little easier to obtain these parts
incrementally, but to get to the same point, there is no savings. It is
possible to low ball the grinder (but at a likely cost in grinder life
and performance), but even then one is only going to be talking about a
matter of $75 dollars or so from the Tormek. So I submit that a dry
grinding system does not assure a less expensive means towards a
comprehensive grinding system. Indeed, one could actually spend much
more if one based it on a top of the line Baldor. Finally, the Tormek
offer a further range of additional jigs to allow the Tormek to
precision grind a wider range of tools.

Then there is the issue of free hand vs precision jigs. Can some folks
get a servicable edge from free-hand grinding, absolutely. Will a
precision jig allow for an optimal geometry to be established on the
tool and maintained with minimal future removal of steel, I find the
evidence for this to be overwhelming. I have long maintained, and
continued to find evidence to support the fact that tool life is
considerably extended by use of a precision jigging system. You simply
are better able to repeat the original geometry and thus remove less
tool steel. Jerry Glaser, who has surely sharpened more gouges than 99.9
percent of us says so,as do a number of turners who have abilities to
both free hand and jig hold their tools. David Ellsworth, whose name is
well associated with his version of the swept back grind, has a great
tape demonstrating how to free hand his grind, but also writes that when
he now uses a jig (granted the one he designed) to maintain the grind
"everytime." So yes, you can free hand grind tools into a usable form,
but sadly it is often those novice turners who have the least skills to
do so that are most apt to attempt that in a false belief it saves them
money (maybe in the short run, but not when you consider tool life).

So I will grant you that the Tormek is expensive at initial purchase,
but I don't think it is fair to consider it a luxury purchase when
compared to comparable abilities in a dry grinder and factoring in tool
life. Irrespective of the specific grinding system, I strongly suggest
new turners invest in at least a minimal jigging system for their
gouges--it will both save your tools, and decrease your frustrations.




Of the bunch, I find the superior unit for maintaining turning gouges to
be the Tormek (for flat blade bevels I prefer the new version of the Lee
Valley Power Sharpening System,


Both are costly systems. The question of what I used was posed by an
individual who had just purchased a lathe from Harbor Freight at less
than
$200 and HSS tools for $35. Considering his initial investment, it
would
seem ill conceived to suggest a Tormek or Lee Valley system. I would
love
to have either one, or both. Andrew convinced me that neither, while
desirable, is necessary.

It is true, neither are necessary, and if you reread my post, you will
find I never argued that you or the original poster should purchase the
Tormek. The content of my post was to refute the misinformation and
place the choice of a sharpening system in a greater context. I ended
with the statement that I'm not trying to convert anyone to any
particular system. Instead, I am attempting to help individuals more
fully consider the factual information relating to all their
possibilities (including a vertical belt sander) when choosing to
obtain or expand their sharpening system

Lyn

First off, Lyn, I've read all the posts in this thread to date, and have
learned more about sharpening than I thought possible in this NG. It's a
real plus having experienced contributors, such as you and Andrew, debate a
topic in detail. While it was not my intent to create a controversy, I'm
glad I did. g

Onward: As I explained to Andrew I am suffering a bit of sticker shock with
respect to purchases beyond the initial investment in the lathe. Faced now
with upgrading my sharpening system I'm attempting to hold the line on costs
somewhat. A Tormek is appealing--I spent half an hour with a salesman in
Indianapolis recently, while he demonstrated and extolled the virtues of the
system. And I've no doubt that with jigs and a slow, larger diameter wheel
I could do a far better job of putting a proper edge and maintaining
geometry on my tools. But cost is an object, especially while entrenched in
the novice stage of turning, not yet knowing if I'm going to be any damn
good at this or not.

A Delta GR450 ($125), with a set of appropriate pastel (sorry, couldn't
resist that) wheels at about $30 per, may be minimalist, but workable. I'm
in the process of exploring the various jigs, and may break down a buy one
or two as well. However the dry grinding system you describe above is as
financially undesirable at this stage of my avocation as the Tormek system.

I am making progress in my turning, though. Only about 90% of my work is
firewood at this stage. Only three weeks ago it was a solid 100%. And if
my learning curve continues at this angle, I may one day start entertaining
thoughts of Stubbys or Oneways. But right now the future is uncertain
enough to induce a bit of rein-tightening in terms of outlay. Andrew's
suggestions have a pretty good fit with my situation currently.

That said, both your and Andrew's advice is appreciated and digested. Thank
you both.

Max

Max rightfully expressed his gratitude by writing; ".....both your and
Andrew's advice is appreciated and digested. Thank you both."
***********************************************
Well now Max, What are George, William, Leo, Ken, Terry and I ?
Chopped liver? Maybe we didn't win an Oscar, but we too, made
significant contributions to this production. We are a little miffed,
but we are a forgiving bunch and just glad to know you suffered no
indigestion. As for Dominic, (remember him?) we hope he is busy
sharpening his set of tools and having fun with his HF 34706. &
'G'

For the forgotten, Arch

Fortiter,

Ah, one or two encyclicals in any thread are enough.

I'm still pondering how one insults an inanimate object like the Tormek.

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Max rightfully expressed his gratitude by writing; ".....both your and
Andrew's advice is appreciated and digested. Thank you both."
***********************************************
Well now Max, What are George, William, Leo, Ken, Terry and I ?
Chopped liver? Maybe we didn't win an Oscar, but we too, made
significant contributions to this production. We are a little miffed,
but we are a forgiving bunch and just glad to know you suffered no
indigestion. As for Dominic, (remember him?) we hope he is busy
sharpening his set of tools and having fun with his HF 34706. &
'G'

For the forgotten, Arch

Fortiter,

try searching google, there are lotsof diy plans out there, for many tools,
and i remeber seeing a hollowing system too(if you mean the secondary rest
that the hollowing tool goes in to make hollowing easier)as well as a
sharpening system or 10
in article . net, Maxprop at
wrote on 2/29/04 10:02 PM:


"AHilton" wrote in message

Maxprop
asked me about the Delta wet grinding machines and said that he couldn't
afford the Tormek.

Actually I can, but prefer not to do so, if unnecessary. And I agree with
your contention that a Tormek is not a necessary, if perhaps desirable, part
of one's overall tool/knife/blade sharpening system.

I, like most new turners, am experiencing the sticker shock associated with
the landslide effect. The lathe is the tip of the iceberg in terms of cost.
Sorby tools, a Vicmarc chuck, a hollowing system, and I'm feeling inclined
to pull in the reins a bit on expenditures. A usable, effective sharpening
system that doesn't cost $390 plus jigs and accessories has real appeal.

Max

In article ,
"AHilton" wrote:

No no no no. Asphalt is preferable over concrete.

Well being "old school", I prefer cobblestone.

_____
American Association of Woodturners
Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon
Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon
_____

That made me think of this old stone mason I saw working about 30 years ago
on some sort of garden sculpture/wall thing that would just pick up one of
the stones and sharpen his chisels on it. Eventually, he'd use that stone
in whatever he was making and use another one later on. On he went using up
his sharpening equipment in what he was building at the time.

Come to think of it, Asphalt wouldn't be too good to use when it was really
hot outside, I guess.

- Andrew


"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"AHilton" wrote:

No no no no. Asphalt is preferable over concrete.

Well being "old school", I prefer cobblestone.

Ken Moon wrote: (clip) sharpening on a concrete sidewalk (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A typical concrete sidewalk can easilly cost more that a Tormek with all its
accessories. So, I do my sharpening on my neighbor's front walk, after
dark. If he catches me, then we'll talk.