Hello Andrew,
I was awaiting your response. My reply is interspersed with yours below

AHilton wrote:
"nor Andrew who started this silliness"

Oh, please, Lyn. You give me far too much credit here. Do a web search,
especially related to knife makers and their own use of the Tormek and other
wet grinders, for far older references to this "silliness" about water +
steel = rust equation.

I'm perfectly comfortable crediting you with it, as it was your comments
that injectd those comments in that thread. It is silliness, particulary
in the context of woodturning tools.

One, many turners work regulary with with green woods. The exposure to
the water in these woods and the tannic and other acids often present
result in far greater opportunity for rusting than the water associated
with a wet wheel. Any residual water from sharpening on a wet wheel is
inconsequential compared to the green wood contact with the tool.

Two, for those working with dry woods, any slight residual water will be
either absorbed by the dry wood shavings, and/or physically wiped away
by the cutting action, and/or baked away by the friction heat generated
by the cutting action.

Three, if one is concerned about rusting, regardless of the water source
(i.e. ambient humidity,green wood, or any residual water from wet
sharpening) then it takes just seconds when done with a turning tool to
wipe briefly with treated rag or buff quickly with a wax coated soft
wheel. Again, if one turns in an environment where rusting is a problem,
rusting will be a problem irrespective of any slight residual water left
on a tool immediately after sharpening on a wet grinder.

Four, with respect to water and rust in the workspace, my experience has
been that the Tormek water trough quite adequately contains the water
used for wet sharpening. The wheel rides in the water bath, and the
vertical wheel alows the water to efficiently flow back into that bath.
I don't have a problem with water in my workspace, though perhaps my
habits are neater than some. If one was concerned about this, an
inexpensive cafeteria tray under the Tormek would be more than adequate
to contain any drippings. Again, the turning environment, with wet
shavings, and atomized extractives presents far more of an issue with
moisture than residual moisture on a wet ground tool.

So yes, I find the rusting argument to be silly in the context of
woodturning. Frankly, I find it silly in the context of knife sharpening
too.

"appear to have ever owned a Tormek."

Which alludes to a previous post of mine: "I have never specifically used
the Tormek..."
Amazing bit of detective work there, Lyn!

So what's the point other than to be snide.

But, see below.

"Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal dust in
the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek."

A different mess with different remedies. Unfortunately, the Tormek (yes, I
found a friends Tormek Supergrind 2006 last night and gave it try so I could
say that I have, indeed, used it now although only 4 hours worth) doesn't
keep the metal dust or abrasive particles out of the air entirely with its
water bath. It's easy to see the particles of steel and abrasive coming off
the tool and wheel while grinding and especially while truing the wheel.
It's nothing like a dry grinder but it still creates this mess.

I'm pleased to see that you acknowledge that the dry grinders make a
mess, you previously only choose to mention the mess you consider
associated with wet grinders, even though you were discussing them in
comparison with your preferred dry techniques. The only conditions I
have ever found a Tormek to cause discernable "spray" is with very small
tools (like less less than 1/4 inch in diameter) that were extended
out of the jig excessively or scrapers that were inadequately supported
and vibrated slightly. With respect to water control, it is better when
the gouge jig is used with the horizontal bar. Any slight spray that
does exist is heavy (i.e., relatively large sized combinations of water
and steel) and with little force, and thus falls quickly to ground (and
usually just back on the wheel), rather than mixing with ambient air and
becoming a respiratory risk and contributing to abrasive grit on
surfaces far away from the sharpening station. Even dry grinders fitted
with vacuum attachments have this problem, and of course, vacuum
attachements have their own major drawbacks with possible sparks setting
the mixture on fire or causing small explosions.


I find the
Makita and similar wet grinders with a running water supply over it's
entirety to be far less of a problem IN THIS REGARD. They are worse about
slinging water around though but the Tormek does this to a lesser degree as
well. It's simply unavoidable when you have a spinning wheel and water
combined. Put a white piece of paper up on the other side of the wheel and
grind some tools, Lyn. It's there.

My Tormek sits in front of a white, hard surfaced "Kitchen Board"
covered wall. It has been located there for years. I don't have such
spray marks appearing on the wall (though I sure do behind the
horizontal platters of my Lee Valley Power Sharpeners). Part of the
reason this is not an issue is the slow speed of Tormek which simply
doesn't accelerate particles with that much force (thus I think the word
"turning" captures the movement more accurately than your choice of the
word "spinning," which implies higher speed). The other reason is the
design of the tools with its vertical direction of water flow, and
bottom mounted tray.

I agree with you about the overspray of the horizontal machines such as
the Makita. With the Tormek, the water has begun draining off the wheel
before ever encountering the tool, and continued to run back down the
wheel (or be absorbed into it). The Makita turns far faster than the
Tormek, and the horizontal platter is poorly suited for water
containment. I don't believe the Makita is an appropriate sharpener for
woodturners, and haven't seen anyone market it for that purpose.

Its still hard to escape the fact that water IS introduced to the steel of
the tool (hence one of the advantages of using a wet grinder in the first
place along with its effect on keeping the wheel wet/cool). The Tormek was
better at keeping the water to a minimum than my Makita (which develops a
sludge which is another mess) was but it still left the tool wet and water
in the area of my other tools. Maybe everything in your shop is stainless
but it's not in mine.

All of this has been addressed above. I can understand why you find
fault with the Makita, particularly for woodturning, but the Tormek and
Makita are very different means to wet grinding, differing in speed,
orientation of the stone and water containment systems, not to mention
wheel composition, jigging systems.



There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of
which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than
one or two systems.



I completely agree. Unfortunately, it's often what KIND of experience those
persons have as well that forms their opinions.

Yes, we both agree here. Though again, I'd reiterate the point that few
have the comparative experience to make valid comparisons, but even with
the comparative experience, many lack an objective, disciplined, and
intellectually honest approach to evaluation and reportage of their
experiences.

You have yours and I have
mine. I base mine on experience as well.

As above. In point of fact, when you made your initial comments with
respect to the Tormek, you had no experience with one, and even now your
experience is minimal.

The Tormek is your prefered
system.

It is my prefered system for maintaining turning gouges, I listed in my
initial reply to Maxprop (and have more extensively described in earlier
posts and reviews) what my prefered systems are for other purposes. It
would be incorrect to imply I have a singular bias or interest in the
Tormek, rather I have the opportunity to use the sharpening system that
works best FOR ME for the specific task at hand.

It isn't mine nor are the wet grinders in general for woodturning.
I love my Makita wet grinder for OTHER work as I don't have time to be
turning it off

There is no reason to have to turn the Tormek off during breaks from
sharpening. Indeed, the Tormek is a much safer device, because of its
low speed, to be left turning. Frankly, good safety practice would not
be to leave a high speed grinder (or most power tools) running when not
directly attending to them.

and on or wiping down my woodturning tools as I work.

As addresed earlier, there is absolutely no need to be wiping down
freshly sharpened turning tools as you turn. Even if one chose to do so,
the time would be inconsequential for a recreational turner.

While
the Tormek is better (but not completely eliminating it) at the water/rust
problem, it is still an issue that I will bring up because it has been
proven to me by my own real tests. You can choose to ignore it but I won't.

It is not a matter of ignoring anything (such as you did by not
discussing drawbacks to the typical dry grinding system like wheel
explosions,need for respiratory and vision protection, noise, abrasive
grit precipitation about the shop, sparks, and not infrequent problems
with out of balance wheels), rather it is a matter of placing specific
issues in context (as I did above with respect to the rust--if you are
really so concerned about water contacting your tool steel, you'd better
give up turning wood for something like plastic) and objectively
reporting BOTH the advantages and disadvantages of the competing systems
based on both design analysis and experience [something I will be doing
this year in a multi-article discussion of sharpening systems for
woodturners in the periodical More Woodturning]. Your earlier comments
of 2/23 in the grinding wheels thread we "Forget wet grinding" "Wet
grinding is just too messy (rust, water everywhere) and they never work
right (water holes plug, balancing is always off) for the quick and
often sharpening that woodturners deal with." These dismissive comments
were excessive and overgeneralizations based on your experience with the
Makita, and not with a Tormek (which of course has no water holes to
plug, does not have balance problems because of its low speed, does not
strew "water everywhere," and many of us find to consistently "work
right.")

Devotion to sharpening systems seems to reflect a blind religious fervor
in an awful lot of turners. I've never quite understood why. I'm not
sure that objective information will ever be adequate to overcome the
many closed minds on this topic, but I do know that objective
information, reasonable design analysis, and reasonably controlled
comparisons of different systems can be achieved. Andrew, you in
particular are capable of both appreciating such information and
providing it, much as I understand you are trying to do with respect to
LDD. I look forward to reading of your efforts along these lines.

Lyn