"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, wrote:


In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.

It delivers 380 litres per minute.

No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time.

Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If
so I would be interested to know.

The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*. The issue is that
the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
useless. 15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.

The table below says @ 35C 15 litres/min.
"Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898"

TGB posted this.....


DOMESTIC HOT WATER FEATURES
HeatMaster®
Operating conditions at 80°C 35 TC

Peak flow at 40C [delta T = 30C] L/10' 419
Peak flow at 40C [delta = 30°C] L/60' 1312
Constant flow at 40C [delta T = 30C] L/h 1057
Peak flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/10' 381
Peak flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/60' 1080
Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898
Peak flow at 60C [delta T = 50C] L/10' 224
Peak flow at 60C [delta T = 50C] L/60' 692
Constant flow at 60C [delta T = 50C] L/h 578

Pre-heat time minutes 37


snip total skool physics balls

Some mothers do 'ave 'em.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article .com,
wrote:
Most do not at all. 50% of all new homes still have tanks and
cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.

For a start I'd dispute this.

You were told 50% use tanks and cylinders. You are making things up again.

Most new houses are built down to a price -
and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install
a combi.

Any figures to back this up, or is it just normal senile blabber.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article . com,
wrote:
You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time,
not a
bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.

No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.

Didn't you understand Andy's figures?

I go by the makers figures. It will deliver 60C to one bath faster than
your system, so when are you going to buy one? You said you would.

Who has a 60C bath? Do you want third degree burns?

Sigh. I want *my* bath filled to the level I want quickly. Which means
mixing hot at 60 degrees and about 30 litres per minute with cold at about
the same flow. Which fills *my* bath in about the time it takes to get
undressed etc.

Which at your age is all day.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article . com,
wrote:
I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high
quality. Quality sells.

Maybe to an innocent doing a first time purchase. What you seem to
recommend wouldn't suit me.

Because there isn't comode in every room.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article .com,
wrote:
You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a
bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.

No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.

It fills a bath at 38 litres/min at bath temperature. In this weather it
will go up to 42 l/min....and never run out of hot water.

When are you buying one?

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article .com,
wrote:
The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
a quick buck.

Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
of cases.

That may well be the case for you running your business.
But this is a DIY group, and many DIY because they want the best for
*themselves* - not just what is profitable for a developer to foist upon
them.

As most are obsessed with house values (it is news headline stuff) the man
speaks sense. He knows his game and how to maximise value. You don't.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article . com,
wrote:
In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off

Great. Mine takes about five minutes. For a large bath filled to the brim
with piping hot water.

Struth!!!!

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:49:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, wrote:


In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.

It delivers 380 litres per minute.

No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time.

Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If
so I would be interested to know.

The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*. The issue is that
the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
useless. 15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.

The table below says @ 35C 15 litres/min.
"Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898"

Exactly. This would require 10 degrees in and that is very optimistic
in the winter.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:49:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, wrote:


In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5
degrees.
35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.

It delivers 380 litres per minute.

No it doesn't. Try a tenth of that for a limited time.

Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data? If
so I would be interested to know.

The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*. The issue is that
the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
useless. 15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.

The table below says @ 35C 15 litres/min.
"Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898"

Exactly. This would require 10 degrees in and that is very optimistic
in the winter.

Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the main
supply pipe usually is. Only the service legs to the house rise up to the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

I just read what you wrote above, which is a total load of crap.

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:




Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the main
supply pipe usually is. Only the service legs to the house rise up to the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

It should be. The ground is still warm from the summer.

In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
It works both ways.

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

Think hard about it. I did
because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.

But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago.

This one lower than whale ****. Implying people leave bombs on buses. Not
funny Buster.

Dribble you have one very seriously warped mind if you think that's
what I implied.


--

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote:



The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at
all.

It is very clear. Please look again.

I have. It is not clear.

It is Saturday night and back from the pub.


Are you ?

Lord Hall has been out with Phil Kyle.

his thing looks very impressive to me and
performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well.

Untrue.

I have looked at the specs, it performs better.

Nonsense. You don't have figures for a separate cylinder.

I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

Says who?

Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
any tanks.

I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
heat exchange contact area.

Then why do you say "says who?" to him?

I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.

Tank-in-tank are. It just something anyone in the heating game knows.


Since it
is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is
possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted.


If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money
then you are right. However, I live in the real world.

The thing is that it is possible to fit a better system than the ACV
box into about the same amount of usable space far more conveniently
and without needing a crane to do it.

I know of none. What system? I am eager to know.

Very simple. Fast recovery cylinder of storage capacity adequate for
the requirements under all conditions of water temperature and pattern
of use.

Stop prattling crap.

I looked at a megaflow and they were around £1.5K with all the
valves
attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30
kiloW
pushing it up to well over £2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann,
Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots
of
space.

Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all.

It does, that is why I have homed in on it.

I said *usable* space.

I know.



The thing is
larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well.
It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint.

About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it. There is no
separate boiler taking up space.

The difference is that a system boiler can be conveniently fitted in a
kitchen cupboard space,

A kitchen? Are you kidding?

They do in mine.

Do you washing you dishes in the bathroom as well?

Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?



an airing cupboard or a loft.

Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
expense, time and valuable space used up.

There's every logic in it. By having separate components it is
possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
appropriate to the situation. If you have a single big box, you are
going to have to provision specially for it.

Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.

How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?

You have no imagination.

A cylinder can
be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.

Why have two one one can do it cheaper.

Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.

It can't.

Your box of tricks is of a non-standard size and is extremely heavy.

Standard size? It would not be fitting in a kitchen.

So space from another room wood have to be found.....







am into delivering flows to at
least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms,
and
this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is
easy to
connect up.

I can see why you would find it attractive.

Read above and read the specs.


I have.

You haven't that is clear.

That sounds like a typical IMM phrase.

He does impress.

He might impress you, but you are in a minority of two, with him being
the other.

And the other fans. I am not in the Phil Kyle fan club you are president
of.

The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.

I am not as easily impressed as you are.

If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.

I already have, several times,

You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.

I've made the shortcomings completely clear. The manufacturer avoids
these areas, understandably.

You have made things up.

If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it. That's
your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.

The Heatmaster does what it says on the box. You are jealous because you
haven't got one.

and I'm not going to repeat the very
obvious limitations. If you want to choose to ignore the
limitations, then that's up to you.

You haven't given any at all, except say a separate boiler and cylinder
can go in kitchens. Any data you gave was assumed and utter wrong.

It isn't.

It was.

Take a look at the missing information

Point it out.

and the issues of size and
weight.




The Scottish
Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As
yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.

WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
idea.

They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
like to know, as I would too.

Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
being in any way reliable.

He didn't ask about the budget of the build. Boy are you dumb at times.

I haven't assumed anything. All I have done is to look at the
spec.sheets and brochures and have pointed out pieces that are missing
or glossed over.

Look at the installation manual. You have assumed lots, and concluded
incorrectly.

I haven't assumed anything,

I know. You just made it all up.

The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7
years.

Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
practicality and performance.

You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.

He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
table. This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
performance and manufacture. Those who buy it will know their stuff and
don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
they say they do, they have no need to tell lies. Most of the Heatmaster
range is aimed at the commercial sector. The Heatmaster 35kW originated in
the commercial range and adapted for the domestic market.

How is your mussie these days?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:




Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
main
supply pipe usually is. Only the service legs to the house rise up to
the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

It should be. The ground is still warm from the summer.

In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
It works both ways.

Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

Think hard about it. I did
because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.

But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago.

This one is lower than whale ****. Implying people leave bombs on buses.
Not
funny Buster.

Dribble you have one very seriously warped mind if you think that's
what I implied.

Of course that is what you implied. Weirdo!

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

No they don't.

What copper cylinder company do you work for?

The one that just gave me an all expenses paid holiday on a white sand
beach under clear blue skies surrounded by more gadgets than I could
use in a lifetime, with numerous dusky maidens attending to my every
need 24 hours a day. There is a whole world beyond your council
estate Drivel, but everyone including the HSE, Thames Water and
Transco would prefer you stay put.

The future's bright the future's copper.

--

IMM wrote

My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance
from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted
bathrooms.

The products of the IMM imagination are really something! I suggest
that when his IQ progresses to 2 he should sell!

LOL
Regards
Capitol

Andy Hall wrote:


The boot is on the other foot here. How many of them have seen a
properly designed and implemented storage system?


Most if they are American. 50-100 gallon storage units are commonplace.
(and have a 10 year warranty!)

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
snip

The products of the IMM imagination are really something! I suggest
that when his IQ progresses to 2 he should sell!


I think you missed the decimal point off before the figure 2

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

And when precisely was your thermometer last calibrated?

What is the thermal conductivity of the pipe?

.......and are you sure that is not the outlet temp from your shanty
town water heater?

--

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote:




I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

Says who?

Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
any tanks.

I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
heat exchange contact area.

Then why do you say "says who?" to him?

Read the thread.
The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
the technology used.




I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.

Tank-in-tank are. It just something anyone in the heating game knows.

That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
transfer. However, the question was about the specific product, not
the technology.





Do you washing you dishes in the bathroom as well?

Nope. The dishwasher is used for that.


Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?



an airing cupboard or a loft.

Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
expense, time and valuable space used up.

There's every logic in it. By having separate components it is
possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
appropriate to the situation. If you have a single big box, you are
going to have to provision specially for it.

Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.

How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?

You have no imagination.


That's a good one. I don't have a crane. Hacksaws are not that
good for sawing through ceiling joists......





A cylinder can
be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.

Why have two one one can do it cheaper.

Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.

It can't.

I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
space" as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
used.



The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.

I am not as easily impressed as you are.

If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.

I already have, several times,

You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.

I've made the shortcomings completely clear. The manufacturer avoids
these areas, understandably.

You have made things up.

I've simply highlighted the shortcomings - an area where manufacturers
tend to be economic with information. All the data is there - the
issue is to look at all cases of operation and not just the best.



If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it. That's
your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.

The Heatmaster does what it says on the box.

Of course. The question is whether that is true under all conditions
of operation that can be encountered. Under less than optimum
conditions, the performance drops markedly.






The Scottish
Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As
yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.

WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
idea.

They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
like to know, as I would too.

Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
being in any way reliable.

He didn't ask about the budget of the build.

The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.



The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7
years.

Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
practicality and performance.

You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.

He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
table.

.... and like you, picked the best ones.


This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
performance and manufacture.

I am not disputing the design or the quality. I am simply pointing
out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
it performs.




Those who buy it will know their stuff and
don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.

I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.

Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch. The dimensions
do not fit well with typical UK locations available for the box and it
is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:18:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:




Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
main
supply pipe usually is. Only the service legs to the house rise up to
the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

It should be. The ground is still warm from the summer.

In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
It works both ways.

Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.


Not quite. The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
we are talking about seasonal effects.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
snip

The products of the IMM imagination are really something! I suggest
that when his IQ progresses to 2 he should sell!



I think you missed the decimal point off before the figure 2


Sorry. You're right!!

Regards
Capitol

In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a minute.
You're into fire appliance territory.

You were boasting you could get 30 l/min from your hot tap.What calcs
did you do? The finger in the air electric caber calculations. 38 l/min
from a 25mm MDPE pipe is quite common.

Now I know you're the same person. It says *380* litres per minute, you
thick ****.

--
*I can see your point, but I still think you're full of ****.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;

Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)

I am and I believe you are shagging Mary.

Sad the holiday didn't fix your brain.

Is Mary a man?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote:




I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which
have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

Says who?

Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
any tanks.

I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
heat exchange contact area.

Then why do you say "says who?" to him?

Read the thread.
The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
the technology used.

If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it? You had never heard of
tank-in-tank until you read it on this thread.

I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.

Tank-in-tank are. It just something anyone in the heating game knows.

That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
transfer. However, the question was about the specific product, not
the technology.

If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?

Do you washing you dishes in the bathroom as well?

Nope. The dishwasher is used for that.

In the bathroom?

Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?



an airing cupboard or a loft.

Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
expense, time and valuable space used up.

There's every logic in it. By having separate components it is
possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
appropriate to the situation. If you have a single big box, you are
going to have to provision specially for it.

Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.

How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?

You have no imagination.


That's a good one. I don't have a crane. Hacksaws are not that
good for sawing through ceiling joists......

They are.

A cylinder can
be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.

Why have two one one can do it cheaper.

Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.

It can't.

I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
space" as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
used.

An equivalent cylinder to deliver 380 litre in 10 mins would be 360-380,
nearest 400 litres. That is "big", bigger than the ACV

The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.

I am not as easily impressed as you are.

If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.

I already have, several times,

You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.

I've made the shortcomings completely clear. The manufacturer avoids
these areas, understandably.

You have made things up.

I've simply highlighted the shortcomings

You made things up.

If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it. That's
your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.

The Heatmaster does what it says on the box.

Of course.

Then what are you babbling on about?


The Scottish
Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right.
As
yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.

WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
idea.

They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
like to know, as I would too.

Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
being in any way reliable.

He didn't ask about the budget of the build.

The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.

It is.

The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7
years.

Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
practicality and performance.

You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.

He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
table.

... and like you, picked the best ones.

No. he pasted the whole table.

This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
performance and manufacture.

I am not disputing the design or the quality. I am simply pointing
out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
it performs.

Exactly, and are unable to interpret it.

Those who buy it will know their stuff and
don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.

I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.

Do you expect a solar winter to arrive any day now?

Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch. The dimensions
do not fit well with typical UK locations

What locations are those? A kitchen? What a mentality.

available for the box and it
is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.

Light enough to be manhandled by two or three men. Easy. The size is
dictated by door widths to move into rooms.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:18:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
main
supply pipe usually is. Only the service legs to the house rise up to
the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

It should be. The ground is still warm from the summer.

In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
It works both ways.

Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.

Not quite.

From about 2.5 to 3 metres down to approximately 100 metres, the ground
temperature is uniform at about 10C, in the UK - there are exceptions.

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a
minute.
You're into fire appliance territory.

You were boasting you could get 30 l/min from your hot tap.What calcs
did you do? The finger in the air electric caber calculations. 38 l/min
from a 25mm MDPE pipe is quite common.

Now I know you're the same person.

I am Dr Drivel for certain. Now button up your cardigan.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Christian McArdle wrote:
Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
normal bath in a few minutes.

That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.

They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
be continuous.

As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):

38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
15lpm continuous.

With a 37 minute recovery.

In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it
has
a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming
mains
at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a
standard
450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.

The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. The 23lpm (38-15)
delta
35 water should only take 23*10/15 minutes to recover, which is just
under
16 minutes, although it might just be to cover a slow ramping down of
the
recovery rate towards the end, which might suggest an indirect coil
method
of heating.

If it is an unvented cylinder without TMV at 60C, then I make the size
(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 55) = 146L plus a bit.

Christian.

Go to their web site http://www.acv-uk.com. I downloaded the
installation instructions. It is the only domestic combi from a large
commercial range.

IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. From
the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit
capacity) and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder
side is 80 litres. The unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.

The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.

The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
at the end of the fill. This thing looks very impressive to me and
performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. A 35 KW
Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up
far more space and time to connect up. I am into delivering flows to at
least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
connect up. It can be unvented from the mains, or vented if the mains
can't cope, and can't be replaced, and then pumped from a tank. It is
on the list of choices.

I haven't read all this thread but some good stuff here at last. You have
it right. The ACV Heatmaster is a combination of:

1. Unvented cylinder,
2. Thermal store
3. Infinitely continuous combi,

There is no compromise. It uses a stainless steel tank-in-tank and a cool
bottom section to promote efficiency. The best on the market and it does
exactly what it says on the box. ACV are a top quality manufacturer, with
offices all over the world, who invented the tank-in-tank, which has been
available to the commercial market in the UK for many years. ACV have
introduced a domestic range of tank-in-tanks and the ACV Heatmaster in the
UK this year - the domestic Heatmaster 35kW been here a matter of months.
Tank-in tanks are used extensively on the Continent, because of the rapid
re-heat, resistance to corrosion and scale - the best you can get.

The Heatmaster promotes condensing efficiency by having a near sealed,
bottom section that has the DHW coil running through it to pre-heat the DHW,
and keep the bottom section cool. The CH return also enters this bottom
cooler section too. The DHW enters the bottom pre-heat coil and then into
the upper inner stainless steel cylinder (the tank in the tank). This upper
tank is heated from all sides, even the top, being totally immersed in the
thermal store water - It hangs. The stainless gas heat exchanger runs right
though the two cylinders (tanks) and out the bottom.

The figures 380 litres in 10 minutes have been mentioned a lot. To get that
by using a separate tank-in-tank cylinder you would need a large cylinder
and a quality 35kW boiler. The cost is more than the Heatmaster, as you have
gleaned, and no infinitely continuous 15 litres/min combi performance that
the Heatmaster offers. To get the 380 litres in 10 mins using a normal
stainless steel indirect cylinder you would need a large 360 litres
cylinder, which would be bigger than the Heatmaster itself and then the
boiler to try and locate somewhere....and cost more. The Heatmaster, as long
as the thermal store inhibitor is replaced every 4 years, should last 50
years. It is simple, with the burner being a detachable standard part
modulating pre-mix commercial unit.

For a full two bathroom property the Heatmaster is brilliant and great value
for money. It will do three baths as long as three are not run at the same
time (a rare event in a domestic house).

Don't make issue with the lunatics as they have nothing to offer for anyone
to gain from, you have already figured it out. They go boozing with Phil
Kyle. If I had to replace my system right now the Heatmaster would be right
at the top of the list. It is a one off purchase as it will probably
outlive most people.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm sold on paper anyhow. I'll leave the
"gang" alone, as all I got was negative responses, and not one ounce of
objectivity.

I think this thread deserves a poem. :-)

Matt wrote:


The future's bright the future's copper.

I see why you are so agressive when stainless steel is mentioned.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote:




I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which
have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

Says who?

Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
any tanks.

I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
heat exchange contact area.

Then why do you say "says who?" to him?

Read the thread.
The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
the technology used.

If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?

Only one product can, by definition, have the fastest recovery
available of any cylinder. That was the question and the request for
justification.

As far as the technology is concerned, there are several ways for one
tank in tank to have better performance than another. For example,
the surface area between tanks can be increased by using a fluted
rather than a purely cylindrical surface.


I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.

Tank-in-tank are. It just something anyone in the heating game knows.

That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
transfer. However, the question was about the specific product, not
the technology.

If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?

So you believe that they are all the same?





Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?



an airing cupboard or a loft.

Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
expense, time and valuable space used up.

There's every logic in it. By having separate components it is
possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
appropriate to the situation. If you have a single big box, you are
going to have to provision specially for it.

Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.

How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?

You have no imagination.


That's a good one. I don't have a crane. Hacksaws are not that
good for sawing through ceiling joists......

They are.

I suppose that if you were to cut through one supporting the cold
storage tank, you could create one of your floods even faster than
abusing plastic plumbing.






A cylinder can
be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.

Why have two one one can do it cheaper.

Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.

It can't.

I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
space" as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
used.

An equivalent cylinder to deliver 380 litre in 10 mins would be 360-380,
nearest 400 litres. That is "big", bigger than the ACV

No, because you can store usable water at 65 degrees and mix it with
cold for use.

The 380 litres of the ACV is at 45 degrees.

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is


Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf]


Where upper case V=volume T=temperature
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final




e.g. for 380 litres of 45 degree water - using 10 degrees for the
cold as ACV have done


[380-Vh] * 35 = Vh * 20


13300 - (35*Vh) = Vh * 20


13300 = 55 * Vh


Vh = 240 litres


A 240 litre cylinder would be 1750mm high on a 450mm diameter
footprint.


The ACV is the same height on a 600 x 650mm footprint so is larger.





The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.

I am not as easily impressed as you are.

If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.

I already have, several times,

You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.

I've made the shortcomings completely clear. The manufacturer avoids
these areas, understandably.

You have made things up.

I've simply highlighted the shortcomings

You made things up.

There's nothing to make up other than to point out that the specs are
not chosen for operating conditions that happen in the winter.






The Scottish
Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right.
As
yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.

WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
idea.

They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
like to know, as I would too.

Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
being in any way reliable.

He didn't ask about the budget of the build.

The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.

It is.

Massively late and massively overbudget. Great reference.....



The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7
years.

Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
practicality and performance.

You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.

He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
table.

... and like you, picked the best ones.

No. he pasted the whole table.

.... and then picked the best numbers.

The realistic ones are considerably less.


This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
performance and manufacture.

I am not disputing the design or the quality. I am simply pointing
out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
it performs.

Exactly, and are unable to interpret it.

The trouble for you is that I can very easily. Sorry to burst your
bubble.




Those who buy it will know their stuff and
don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.

I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.

Do you expect a solar winter to arrive any day now?

Not particularly, but having measured water temperatures in various
properties in February, I know that 5 degrees is entirely possible.



Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch. The dimensions
do not fit well with typical UK locations

What locations are those? A kitchen? What a mentality.

available for the box and it
is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.

Light enough to be manhandled by two or three men. Easy. The size is
dictated by door widths to move into rooms.

170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

wrote:


Matt wrote:


The future's bright the future's copper.

I see why you are so agressive when stainless steel is mentioned.

Drivel, I've never had a bad word to say about stainless EVER.

Get back to that counter, you can have a 30 minute break at 12:30
until then keep selling more copper tanks and make me even richer.

A hacksaw in the bin is worth two in the hands of a homicidal part
time plumbing counter assistant with a length of plastic pipe.


--

wrote:


Thanks for the explanation. I'm sold on paper anyhow. I'll leave the
"gang" alone, as all I got was negative responses, and not one ounce of
objectivity.

I think this thread deserves a poem. :-)

Dribble you must stop replying to yourself like this, the men in white
coats will take you away to a land with no hacksaws, no leaflets to
read and a 40 second combi fed shower once a week flowing 0.3 litres a
minute at 21 deg C.


--

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

From about 2.5 to 3 metres down to approximately 100 metres, the ground
temperature is uniform at about 10C, in the UK - there are exceptions.

Totally irrelevant to anyone supplied with water stored in huge
surface reservoirs and totally irrelevant to anyone fed by a borehole
deeper than 100m.

Your exceptions Dribble ARE the norm.

Back to work, you can have a break in 15 mins.


--

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


I am Dr Drivel for certain.

......and timegoesby when you use your other two neurons


--

In article .com,
wrote:
Thanks for the explanation. I'm sold on paper anyhow. I'll leave the
"gang" alone, as all I got was negative responses, and not one ounce of
objectivity.

So all you want is confirmation of your views? Do this with John via
e-mail and save us all the Drivel.

Like John, you appear not to actually understand figures - and what's more
important to be able to interpret them. Ie, what they mean in practice
rather than a maker's advertising claims.

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Matt wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

No they don't.

What copper cylinder company do you work for?

The one that just gave me an all expenses paid holiday on a white sand
beach under clear blue skies surrounded by more gadgets than I could
use in a lifetime, with numerous dusky maidens attending to my every
need 24 hours a day. There is a whole world beyond your council
estate Drivel, but everyone including the HSE, Thames Water and
Transco would prefer you stay put.

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

--

wrote:


Matt wrote:

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

Nothing wrong with stainless either Drivel - I get free holidays from
them too ;-) I always refuse the numerous free holidays from Combi
only companies to preserve my integrity - the other month one of them
even tried to tempt me with white water rafting in the Kalahari.




--

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, wrote:




I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which
have
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..

Says who?

Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
any tanks.

I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
heat exchange contact area.

Then why do you say "says who?" to him?

Read the thread.
The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
the technology used.

If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?

Only one product can, by definition, have the fastest recovery
available of any cylinder. That was the question and the request for
justification.

As far as the technology is concerned, there are several ways for one
tank in tank to have better performance than another. For example,
the surface area between tanks can be increased by using a fluted
rather than a purely cylindrical surface.


I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.

Tank-in-tank are. It just something anyone in the heating game knows.

That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
transfer. However, the question was about the specific product, not
the technology.

If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?

So you believe that they are all the same?





Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?



an airing cupboard or a loft.

Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
expense, time and valuable space used up.

There's every logic in it. By having separate components it is
possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
appropriate to the situation. If you have a single big box, you are
going to have to provision specially for it.

Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.

How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?

You have no imagination.


That's a good one. I don't have a crane. Hacksaws are not that
good for sawing through ceiling joists......

They are.

I suppose that if you were to cut through one supporting the cold
storage tank, you could create one of your floods even faster than
abusing plastic plumbing.






A cylinder can
be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.

Why have two one one can do it cheaper.

Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.

It can't.

I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
space" as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
used.

An equivalent cylinder to deliver 380 litre in 10 mins would be 360-380,
nearest 400 litres. That is "big", bigger than the ACV

No, because you can store usable water at 65 degrees and mix it with
cold for use.

The 380 litres of the ACV is at 45 degrees.

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is


Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf]


Where upper case V=volume T=temperature
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final




e.g. for 380 litres of 45 degree water - using 10 degrees for the
cold as ACV have done


[380-Vh] * 35 = Vh * 20


13300 - (35*Vh) = Vh * 20


13300 = 55 * Vh


Vh = 240 litres


A 240 litre cylinder would be 1750mm high on a 450mm diameter
footprint.


The ACV is the same height on a 600 x 650mm footprint so is larger.





The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.

I am not as easily impressed as you are.

If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.

I already have, several times,

You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.

I've made the shortcomings completely clear. The manufacturer avoids
these areas, understandably.

You have made things up.

I've simply highlighted the shortcomings

You made things up.

There's nothing to make up other than to point out that the specs are
not chosen for operating conditions that happen in the winter.






The Scottish
Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right.
As
yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.

WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
idea.

They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
like to know, as I would too.

Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
being in any way reliable.

He didn't ask about the budget of the build.

The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.

It is.

Massively late and massively overbudget. Great reference.....



The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
people might have looked into this? And have done for the past 7
years.

Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
practicality and performance.

You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.

He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
table.

... and like you, picked the best ones.

No. he pasted the whole table.

.... and then picked the best numbers.

The realistic ones are considerably less.


This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
performance and manufacture.

I am not disputing the design or the quality. I am simply pointing
out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
it performs.

Exactly, and are unable to interpret it.

The trouble for you is that I can very easily. Sorry to burst your
bubble.




Those who buy it will know their stuff and
don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.

I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.

Do you expect a solar winter to arrive any day now?

Not particularly, but having measured water temperatures in various
properties in February, I know that 5 degrees is entirely possible.



Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch. The dimensions
do not fit well with typical UK locations

What locations are those? A kitchen? What a mentality.

available for the box and it
is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.

Light enough to be manhandled by two or three men. Easy. The size is
dictated by door widths to move into rooms.

170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Matt" wrote in message
...
wrote:


Matt wrote:

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

Nothing wrong with stainless either

Lunatic. Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
out of a job soon.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"

170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights

So you are guessing as usual.